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| Messages 1 - 35 of total 35 in this topic |
miller.545
Sport climber
Overland Park, KS
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i absolutely love belaying with my cinch, but have never self belayed. do you have to pull the rope through as you would on a gri gri? I have used a mini traxion and feel like nothing could feed easier than that. I might have to give it a try
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kurthicks
climber
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I hope you're reviewing the Ushba basic ascender. It's a great solo TR device. Super smooth.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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I friend of mine has a Cinch & one time, she got jerked upwards while belaying a falling climber & the Cinch would not allow her to lower herself back down to the ground while weighted. It only releases when there is not weight acting upon it. The climber she was belaying has to bounce up the rope & hang from a draw to get enough slack in the rope to allow her to release the Cinch.
For this reason, I suspect the cinch may not work well as a solo belay device because if you fall,you won't be able to lower back to the ground or to a convenient ledge or stance. The Gri-Gri works so much better in this case.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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well, after reading through the Trango web site i got my answer (below):
Question: The Cinch looks like it would be awesome for rope soloing. Can I use it for that?
Answer : We can not, under any circumstances, recommend the Cinch for soloing, either TR or lead. We've done an enormous amount of testing on it, all to get it dialed for belaying and lowering rock climbers. We haven't spent one second testing it for soloing. So, if you do try it, AMFYOYO. Here's the way my lawyer wants me to say the same thing... The Cinch is not designed or approved for solo or self belaying under any circumstances. Using the Cinch in this manner can result in death and/or serious injury. Other uses for the Cinch have not been tested and are not approved uses. The Cinch was not designed as a self belay device and such improper use is potentially fatal. The Cinch is designed, sold, and approved for use only as illustrated in the pamphlet that the Cinch is sold with. Use of the Cinch in any manner not illustrated in that pamphlet can result in death and/or serious injury. The user is responsible for learning the correct way to operate the Cinch and operating the Cinch correctly. The user is responsible for any and all death, injury and/or risks arising out of his or her use of the Cinch. If you do not accept this responsibility, do not use the Cinch. THE MANUFACTURER AND RESELLERS OF THE CINCH EXPLICITLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY FOR ANY DEATH, INJURY OR DAMAGE TO ANY PERSON OR PROPERTY THAT MAY OCCUR THAT IS RELATED TO THE USE OF THIS PRODUCT.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Chris,
Are you rigging the Mini-T with a sling to keep it upright, or just letting it drag between your legs? I was trying out some variations yesterday. Had a fat rope on short steep routes, and it wasn't running very smooth for me. Had to tie on my shoes or a coil of rope to weight the bottom. Folks were recommending the shock cord to keep the mini-T upright. Without it, you fall about a foot and a half or so onto the Mini-T, which I didn't like. This was just a major pain in the ass though, rigging one way to go up, then reconfiguring to get back down, and repeating. I ended up just using a gri-gri on the last few routes, but it sucks pulling slack.
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Brendan
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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well doesnt the minitraction say the same thing about rope soloing?
sound pretty promising to me.
-Urban dictionary:
amfyoyo - "adios muther f-ers your on your own!"
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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since the cinch doesn't adjust diameter wise, I suspect different size ropes will result in very different handling characteristics.
I have a friend with a cinch and he claims they put a bad kink in the rope (when used as a regular belay device). Not sure why that would be, but that's his claim. Anyone else have any experience with the device?
yea, I suspect the legal verbiage doesn't add a thing to our knowledge. Just covering their ass.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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I like a little minidistraxion every few weeks I guess.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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I'm sorry Mal ...but that cinch is a piece of sh#t. If weighted you have to mantle onto the small trigger to release it, Poor design, but it feeds ok when lead climbing but to solo...Your gonna die. If I haven't already given my cinch away to Mister E or someone else it's free for the asking.....What a waste of phucking $.
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kinnikinik
Trad climber
B.C.
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I've tried the cinch quite a bit for soloing, and as a way to have a third follow and self belay on multi pitch routes. I stopped doing it because it can fail to lock in certain orientations or with light loads such as slab falls. Much better backed up. Feeds much easier than a gri-gri, more like an ushba. very useful as a rigging tool.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Wow, Chris, I'm way surprised to hear that the Cinch feeds so well! Cool to hear it, though. I guess I figured it would work similar to a Gri Gri; I saw someone use a Gri Gri once for solo-toproping, and it did not feed on it's own at all...he had to feed it by hand. I've done tons of solo-toproping for many years, have tried just about everything on the market...except the Cinch. My current favorite setup is TWO Mini-Traxions, with Belay Master 2 carabiners. One on my belay loop, one on a half-runner girth hitched to my harness. Personally, I do not feel comfortable using one of any device for this purpose. I think solo-toproping is the safest form of climbing that I do. Yes, you are alone (not always, though...oftentimes other climbers are around). But there is simply no way that two Mini-Traxions are going to fail at the same time! You don't have to rely on a belayer, you have rapped the route first to check for any potential loose rock...so why not make it mega-bomber with TWO devices? I used to use the smaller USHBA ascender as my primary unit backed up with a Mini-Traxion. That seemed even more redundant, not only being two devices, but two from two different companies...perhaps the Cinch would be nice for the same reason, backed up by a Mini. Still, though, the Mini's slide nicer on the rope, and it just seemed possible to load the USHBA in a way where it could slide down the rope. I did mod my top Mini, it's pretty easy to cut off the cam lockout with a Dremel. This does seem like a substantial flaw to this device for solo-toproping use; you can accidentally have the cam locked out. Just curious, how does the Cinch perform for rapping? I was using a Gri-Gri, but it seems annoying to modulate. It's either on or off, poor control. I now use a Metolius BRD, highest friction of any device like this, and most raps I tie a knot maybe 15 feet down in case I were to lose control of the rap at the start of a cliff.
Anyway, solo-toproping is a gas, is super safe, fantastic workout for those days you can't find a partner, or just feel like being alone, working a route, dialing your technique, getting a lot of pitches in, climbing when it is cold so you keep moving. It requires minimal gear, is quick and easy to set up, and is bomber...I strongly recommend using two devices, whatever you choose...there is simply no good reason not to! It reminds me of toproping with somebody I can barely remember about 25 years ago in Josh. He set the anchor, we did some laps and I was last up and took the anchor down. He had in about a dozen pieces, made a comment that there was no excuse for toproping to be nothing but insanely bomber. I agree.
Here's a photo of my Mini-Traxions, the one on the right has the mod I mentioned to remove the cam stop.
Enjoy! This is a great way to rock climb. It's ironic because people will see you and think you are doing something way crazy...NOT!!! I went to the Sunshine Wall at George (Frenchman's Coulee) last Wednesday and did 10 routes (5.9 through 5.12a) in 2:33 car to car...gotta love that!
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pyrrhonota
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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what are you guys doing where you can't release a Chich? I have had one for a couple of years (one of the first generation ones) and have never had a problem releasing the rope, even while hanging or being lifted off the ground while belaying. I think the thing is great, it feeds better than anything else I have used.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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The Cinch rules, I own 2 and love em both - but I think, as Malcom says, that it should not be used for solo self belay. I have, despite my admonitions, utilized it for TR solo in that capacity, and of course kept my back up knots close and short. I am suspicious that in a self belay fall, if the Cinch got pushed up against the rock and your belly, it would not lock up. It's more of a feeling. When the Cinch droops down, it will not lock. This is the same thing a belayer does when he is giving out slack fast with the device, just change the orientation so you can strip out line for the leader to clip. If the device doesn't reorient when you fall it WON'T lock......ouch.
I have had great success for regular climbing, never had an issue with it not allowing the rope to run either in lowering a person or in using it to rappel a single line, which I did a lot this summer.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Off-axis loading of the ostensibly stronger Pro-Traxion during my use (for hauling, not self-belay) resulted in near-catastrophic cluster-fuqcing. The rope got between a side plate and the sheave, and wedged almost irreversibly.
I guess if you're going to fall on one of those things, and it saves your life, you don't care if the mechanism gets locked up solid, as long as you live.
The design failure of the Pro-Traxion is the lack of lateral stiffness between the side plates and the sheave. The design is wholly acceptable for normal (i.e. 2-d) loading, but odd, strange, off-axis and generalized 3-d loadings can result in non-linear behavior. Specifically, a gap can be created between a side plate and the sheave, sufficient for a rope to enter, and get stuck.
I would never have believed this to be true, looking at the mechanism, and how well it was made. But, in The Real Life, this rare failure absolutely reared its ugly head, on the Wall, in the Real World. Getting the rope out of the cluster-fuqu was a time-consuming headache; getting back to nominal vertical freight hauling was an additional pain.
I'll NEVER, EVER haul against a Pro-Traxion again as long as I live: try it once, and I'm a fool; try it twice NO! I am not that degree of fool. And, here, I don't need to make claims or creech like a madman. The Kong Block Roll is available, and is, totally, the schnitt.
I guess my take on soloing with a mini- or ProTraxion goes about like this: it can have a failure, but will stop the rope from running because it tends to lock the rope up, solid, at the non-linear extrema of its usefulness.
In Other Words: the Traxion family of devices might not drop your ass, but might irreversibly engage your rope.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Great point, Tom! Like I have said, this is why you should never trust ONE of any device for solo-toproping! Weird sh#t can happen.
You would not be Tom Davis, would you? If yes, I climbed with you a few times back in 86-87...
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Hey Mark Miller,
Sorry you can't figure out the Cinch. Have you watched the video instructions we put up? Check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo. If you watch those instructions and practice with it for 3 minutes, you'll find that it actually lowers really well. We did make some improvements a few years go which helps a bit with the lowering though. It doesn't matter which version you have if you follow the directions in our video instructions. If you don't follow those instructions the old one can suck. If you don't and you can't, then sorry--send it back to me and I'll hook you up with some swag. You just have to promise to read, practice and follow the instructions for anything I send you.
The current versions of the Cinch all have, "For expert use only", laser etched on the base plate. Older versions don't. Older versions also have a skinnier and pointier release lever. The pics on our website show the new version. Compare the handles carefully. The difference is subtle.
I regards to soloing with the Cinch, yes, those quoted words are mine. If you decide to do it, you are on your own, MF.
Mal
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I've got both the GriGri and the Cinch and disagree that the Cinch is a POS. I actual think in some apps I prefer the Cinch. Mine is new though AND i'm talking about belaying only so....
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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medusa, If you're getting pinched by the Cinch (!) you're holding it with the "sure to kill" grip and you WILL drop your partner at some point. Glad you like the Grigri. Watch the video if you want to like the Cinch.
Climb safe,
Mal
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WBraun
climber
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I had a rock exotica soloist for a while and it was super smooth for lead soloing.
it was also the best for mini traxion type climbing.
It did have the problem that if you fell upside down you would slide down the free end.
They recommended you tie that end into your harness along with safety loops.
Of course I never did any of that. I left the end hanging out in space with no safety short loops. Who falls anyways?
If I fell upside down it would have meant "see ya at the base".
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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In that case medusa, you're forgiven. Choosing a lead solo rig is like choosing underwear. Some go with boxers, some with skivvies and others go commando. Whatever works for you. Glad you don't like to solo with the Cinch.
Climb safe,
Mal
PS: As I've been accurately quoted above, we didn't spend one second designing as testing the Cinch for soloing so I'm not offended if you hate it for soloing. Probably wouldn't work too well as a fishing lure either.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Tom, did you have a biner clipped through the hole at the bottom of both side plates of the pro-traxion when you deformed it? (like the material that comes with a pro traxion recommends)
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Ryna - I own a Cinch and probably wouldn't recommend it for anything under 9.4mm. When loaded and releasing the device it's kind of an all or nothing feed of rope with anything small. The skinniest rope I've used is a 9.2, and I rapped with it. Needless to say I made it down fast!
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Edwardmw
climber
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The Petzl basic ascender works way better for top rope soloing than the mini traxion or the cinch. With the mini traxion you need two of them, and you have read all the above posts about problems with the cinch. Petzl basic ascender is the way to go.
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Cilley uses a cinch and that is all he does is single rope climb by himself
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Edwardmw
climber
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Yeah, I know Richard, and we were there when he got his cinch, and Jo, him and I talked about it even before he used it. This was the day of Richard's first free ascend of the "Carpe Diem" roof crack in Yosemite (no toproping involved) He received this cinch more by chance than by preference, he had never used a device for top rope solo before. But, I do not want to speak for Richard, are you out there Dick?
Ed
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dickcilley
Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
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Jul 12, 2012 - 05:23am PT
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Simply said.Sportclimbing took my ropedclimbing life away.I would spent all day holding people while they dogged.The Cinch gave me back climbing.It¨s the best.
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Spike Flavis
Trad climber
Truckee California
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Jul 12, 2012 - 09:54am PT
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I dug this up from my blog
SUNDAY, JULY 3, 2011
Petzel Mini Traxion
Petzel Mini Traxion changed my life. I have a very limited amount of time to climb and my few trusted climbing partners are also busy with their careers and families. In order for me to get in enough cragging time to be comfortable in the backcountry, I started top-rope soloing with the Petzel Mini Traxion or “mini-T” as it’s better known. The top rope soloing “movement” has really gained traction in the past few years and it’s not uncommon to see two or three climbers top rope soloing at Snowshed Wall (one of my local Donner Summit crags) on any given day. In the instructions for use that came with the device, Petzel calls it a “Swing sided self-jamming pulley” and list three modes of operations; hauling, self-belay and horizontal progression or Tyrolian traverse. I really liked the graphic of a climber getting her hair stuck in the cam. Yikes!
When I decided to checkout TR soloing for myself I went to talk to local climbing ace Max at the Sports Exchange in Truckee. Max spends a lot of time in the Yosemite racing up big walls and is always up on the latest techniques. As he ran me threw the various systems being used, I couldn’t help but notice how often he said “bomber” but ultimately, I would be the judge of the systems safety. While some people use a Tibloc as a back up, I decided to go with a system utilizing two mini-Ts in locking karabiners that limit side loading and a chest harness. So on a cool April day in ‘09 I headed up to Donner to try it out. I choose a short 5.9 crack, clipped in and climbed up about five feet and hung to check it out. I dropped about six inches before the top cam engaged (more on this later). I then climbed the pitch and felt completely comfortable with the system. I rappelled back down and moved the top mini-T from the chest harness to my sit harness. Then I connected a sling from the chest harness to the top mini-T to keep it under tension and take any slack out of the system. I made some other slight adjustment and did another lap. I was hooked.
Since I’ve been climbing at Donner Summit for thirty years I quickly developed several circuits that allowed me to climb as many pitches as possible in the shortest amount of time. But in the end I realized that once you take the partner(s) and belaying out of the equation, you have plenty of time. It really made me realize how much time is wasted talking sh#t, trying to figure out what to climb next and avoiding annoying locals and dogs. Lately I’ve fine tuned my system by using a 130’ 10mm static line and my old FISH zebra-stripped gear sling instead of the chest harness to hold the top mini-T up and avoid the sagging I talked about earlier. Since I have a lot of weights around my house I double slung a 5# plate to attach to the bottom of the rope. Other climbers use some gear on a sling or a water bottle to keep the rope taunt and allow the Mini-T to slide freely.
It’s beyond the scope of this blog to give too many details on systems for top rope soloing. What is described above is my system being applied to routes I have wired. It may not work for you. I would encourage you to Google top rope soloing or search the supertopo forum for more information. A better idea is to ask some one you trust and then experiment with few different techniques. I’ve seen other climbers using different devices such as a Trango Cinch or a Grigri like Leo Houlding and Jason Pickles in the movie P2yche to “top-rope” their route The Prophet on El Cap! Top rope soloing is a lot like ascending a fixed line without aiders or tying in short. The whole process is a little more engaging than going out for a TR session with your buddies. YOU ARE SOLOING! IF YOU F*#K UP, YOU ONLY HAVE YOURSELF TO BLAME.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Jul 12, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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A friend of mine broke his leg after being dropped on a Cinch. It was an obvious case of operator error, but my experience belaying with the Cinch tells me that it would be terrible for soloing. There is so little friction that any obstruction in the locking of the device allows a complete unobstructed free fall. There are too many other great devices out there.
My favorites: Mini Traxion, Soloist, Grigri. Would love to check out a Shunt. Folks in the UK and at the New River Gorge have been using the Shunt for years.
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VTP
Boulder climber
ATX
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Jul 12, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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I think the DMM buddy is a great product and might be what you are looking for!
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| Messages 1 - 35 of total 35 in this topic |
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