Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2005 - 05:28pm PT
|
John's response is perfect. Short and to the point. Not every route is for every person. The day when all routes are "dumbed down" (or "safed up") to the same level is the day when climbing has died. I led Hair Raiser back in it's original form, with quarter inch bolts and all. No new bolts should have been added to this desert classic, there's plenty of other routes in the area. John's comments about Bacher Yerian are right on. I might be able to TR Bacher Yerian on a perfect day. I'd never consider leading it. Yet, if someone ever added bolts to that route, it would never be the same. Where would the joy be in leading Bacher Yerian with twice the bolts? Where is the joy in leading Hair Raiser with twice the bolts? Half the pleasure is in emulating the first ascentionist's bold style; in reliving their vision.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2005 - 06:18pm PT
|
I remember when Bachar first eyeballed what is now called Bachar-Yerian? Vern Clevenger of all people wanted to rap bolt it because he thought no one will ever be able to lead it from ground up. He’ll probably deny it or so.
Shows what the world is about …….
|
|
F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2005 - 06:46pm PT
|
Well said "mtnyoung".
Ten or so years ago I followed my partner up Hair Raiser with the old quarter inchers, I was impressed by his lead and we were even more impressed by the first ascent. Even thought I didn't lead a pitch, it was nerving watching him as I belayed.
|
|
Robin Goodfellow
Social climber
1531 Oxford English Drive
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
|
426
I've got your sticks,
I know a fellow
brash never mellow
who climbed the dike
without inserting his pike
Where the lightweights like.
hehe
|
|
426
Sport climber
Obed
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2005 - 09:28am PT
|
Ah, so you know Gerughty then, eh? I've not run across anyone who's talked about chopping the added bolts on Dike, yet....or anyone "manly" enough to have sacked up and done Dike in the original FA style...
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2005 - 09:45pm PT
|
Hey John, that's ironic - did you know Fool's Gold is a retrobolt job? Alan Nelson free soloed it on the FA.
No need to retrobolt. Go do new routes if you want "well bolted" ones, don't add bolts to existing routes. It's not like there is a lack of well bolted routes in the Mammoth area, most of the newer crags have many moderate sport routes.
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2005 - 10:46pm PT
|
Greg's got the point. After all what is a retrobolted Hair Raiser? Just another pretty slab climb. Plenty of those. The fun in this route is it's history; being bold like the first ascentionist's were. It's funny, I've put up dozens of routes, and all the face routes that I can remember are "well" bolted. Yet I love old style routes like Hair Raiser; I seek them out up into the high 5.10s just because of the above thoughts. I'm even good at keeping it together on runouts, and yet I don't run out my own FAs. So what species of chicken does that make me? As time goes by the old style routes will be a smaller and smaller percentage of all exisitng routes. Let's leave them strictly alone. No retrobolting.
|
|
Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2005 - 11:15pm PT
|
Geez locker, aren't you the same guy who was bragging in another thread about putting a protection bolt on Double Cross? I hope you were only kidding about doing that cause otherwise your post would be kinda hypocritical.
|
|
can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2005 - 11:54pm PT
|
hey it's a good bolt. what's wrong with that Jeff?
|
|
Jedi
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 01:52am PT
|
What the f*#k! I climbed it two years ago with the new bolts in. A great route that needed those bolts. I've heard it was a death fall on the first pitch... find the as#@&%e and chop off his balls!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 01:54am PT
|
Is that why he lowered you off the end of the rope?
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 02:04am PT
|
hahahaha
Is he talking about Double Cross or The Climb Formally Known As Hair Raiser™?
Someone call a Whaaaaambulance!
|
|
dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2005 - 10:34am PT
|
It seems as though my original thought that bolt removal in its self is destructive got lost. I don't agree with bringing the climb down to anyones level but the FA's.
|
|
arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 11:04am PT
|
dodangler: which brings me back to a reply I made earlier. If it becomes commonly accepted to leave the retro bolts there once they are in, this will be used to excuse/justify/allow retro bolting EVERYTHING.
|
|
rico
Trad climber
sf
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 11:18am PT
|
Can someone please help me here....I keep hearing this argument "the FAs didn't need these (extra) bolts, so when I climb this route I want to climb it in the same hard style..." correct me if I'm wrong, in order to climb the route in the "same style" as the FAs, wouldn't one need to schlepp whatever gear was used to bolt the route...and linger (flail), unprotected for a few minutes (probably more) at the stance before clipping into a bolt. Mind you, having never put up a route I am talking out of my ass, but IMHO there is little comparison between the "style" with which the FA climbed the route and anyone who follows.
|
|
Robin Goodfellow
Social climber
1531 Oxford English Drive
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 12:18pm PT
|
4-2-6 Hello
From Robin Goodfellow
He climbed the dike
Better than you would like
Cause he Is never yellow
Now he has a family
There's no need to be "manly"
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 03:12pm PT
|
“What the f*#k! I climbed it two years ago with the new bolts in. A great route that needed those bolts. I've heard it was a death fall on the first pitch... find the as#@&%e and chop off his balls!”
Why, so they will be like you – a eunuch? Is this person for real?
Is there a difference between 'style' and 'ethics'? I think there is.
|
|
arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2005 - 04:08pm PT
|
So much of the whining in threads like this is absurd. There must be twenty billion face climbs (well, that may be a teeny exageration) in the US and there is plenty of room for both well protected ones and run out ones.
If you are a 5.10 climber, do you go lead every 5.2 or 5.12 out there? You generally select the routes you feel comfortable about doing. If you like well protected face climbs, go do some. If you like bold run out climbs, go do some. Quit whining about this or that climb having too few or too many bolts. And quit demanding that everything change to fit into your narrowass vision of what's right.
Thirty years ago in Yo, we (meaning most of the locals at that time) bad-mouthed anyone who put up a route with "too many" bolts and rap drilling was a cardinal sin.
I'm over it.
If someone rap drills a fine quality route with a bolt every 6 feet. Respect it. I've done some that were loads of fun.
If someone puts up a fine quality bold runout route on lead with bolts every 60 feet. Respect it. Had fun there too.
Hell, even a slimy whiny a$$ weasel deserves a little respect.
|
|
LongAgo
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2005 - 07:35pm PT
|
Hair Raiser bolt removal - revisited
In response to posts on bolt removal on Hair Raiser, a few thoughts from the one who first led and protected the pitch in, I think, 1975:
 My letter in the June, 2005 issue of Climbing ("A Woolly Mammoth Pleads") states, "I respectfully request climbers not alter a route where I'm party to the first ascent. Thank you." I also asked, "If a route has changed (missing bolt, significant feature gone), please contact me before adding bolts." My letter was intended as a request and gentle persuasion. I said, " ... a first ascent is not only a topo of features and moves, but an achievement to be appreciated with fixed protection left as originally done." I hoped to head off further "fixes" of my routes and of "traditional" routes generally, as they seem to be gaining in popularity.
I did not ask for the added bolts on Hair Raiser to be removed. My experience with removing bolts suggests it is counterproductive. Long ago, when I removed the bolts from Hand Jive in Tuolumne because they were placed on rappel (at the time, quite an affront to accepted climbing practice), no one was persuaded by my actions; the rock was scarred; the bolts were quickly replaced; and bolt hangers on a route of mine (the Vision) probably were flattened in retribution (I can't be sure - no one fessed up). It seems bolting and erasing wars do no good. Debate, discussion, posts and letters are the better means for trying to keep the long held agreement among climbers not to alter original protection. (For a fuller discussion, see "Rock Climbs of Tuolumne Meadows," Reid and Falkenstein, Chockstone Press, 1983).
Some posts on this subject speculate about the opinion of my partner on the route, Vern Clevenger, on the need for additional bolts after the first ascent. At the moment, I don't know Vern's opinion. However, I believe adding bolts to an existing route should not be done lightly. Every effort should be made to consult with all those responsible for the climb. I have had partners agree and disagree with my bolt placements on first ascents, and visa versa. I have done (and turned back) from climbs where I felt more, less or differently placed bolts would be good. My opinions or those of partners in such cases did not lead to changing bolts, nor should they.
When I first led the Hair Raiser first pitch, I protected some of it with thin slings snugged around chicken heads. Slinging is essential to making many climbs reasonable to lead. One example is Fantasia at Lover's Leap. I hope no one has decided to add a bolt to this climb because they can't or won't sling a critical knob. There are other such examples.
The tricky move at the beginning of Hair Raiser could lead to injury, but probably not death. Slinging makes the climb an "R," not "X." Still, one should feel comfortable leading a good way out on 5.8 before doing the climb. There are many similar "R" climbs where protection skills are important. I hope the trend is not to bolt them all.
Thank you,
Tom Higgins
|
|
Chateau Rico
Trad climber
Davis, CA
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2005 - 08:37pm PT
|
It's an honor to reply to Tom Higgins, original ascensionist. Here is my post on RC.com, on Sept, 20, same subject:
"I visited Hairraiser Buttress on Sept 6, 2005, the last day of a four day road trip. The first pitch was to be my lead, that being the "money" pitch. Background: I am an intermediate climber, and have led similar 5.9 slab, such as Dike Route and Crest Jewel, but I was having head problems having sustained a 25 foot trad fall a couple weeks previous. Nonetheless, the previous days sharpened me and I was (marginally) ready so I roped up, hopped onto the boulder from which you start and spotted that note. It said that bolts were removed to "restore routes to their original glory" or something like that. It said it was an X rated route now and to "have a nice rest of your day!". So I untied and my partner led and I followed. Here's my experience, as the 2nd (imagining I was leading). The 5.9 move is off the deck, and you clip the first bolt after you make it, so the bolt doesn't protect the move at all. The move wasn't bad. Then you climb 5.7 and 5.8 slab for another 40 feet or so (guessing). You do the math: you are decking if you fall for most of the way to that next clip. The climbing stays sustained and committing all the way to the first anchor, about 140 feet up, 3 bolts total. The fourth bolt was removed too, in a hard section. My partner said he felt no fear, but it was the only time I've seen him grab a draw prior to clipping! The next two pitches did not feel particularly runout to us, and there were more bolts and slightly easier climbing. The climbing, great, in a gorgeous setting. The bolt removal was puzzling: I found removed bolts elsewhere, but the one that was really needed to make the route reasonably safe was removed, bolt number 2. I have a thing about decking, having broken my leg and now into my 50's.
So, I kind of wish the Runout Climbing Association would have chosen different bolts to remove SO PEOPLE DON'T DIE BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS (just in case a member of the "Association" is reading...)"
To add a couple points in response to Tom: There are no bolts added on Fantasia, I don't think, and I have slung those chicken heads, and am not particularly bothered on that route. Hairraiser, first pitch, is different. Although I didn't lead it, I chickened out (or "didn't have the sack" as others might say), I was with someone who had done the route and had a guidebook, and we were not prepared to sling chicken heads. I usually think I can trust a brand new guide book and the beta of someone who just did the route. Also, the opening move was a little tricky, but not that dangerous, like you said. What I didn't like was that the next 40 feet was unprotected, and not very easy, and insecure, being slabby face. Again, the chopping made no sense to me, since portions of pitch 2 and 3 had lots of bolts!
So Tom's sensibility of avoiding chopping makes sense in that future climbers can be seriously misled if they get onto an altered route, unexpectedly over their heads. I thank god that the knuckleheads (they inscribed some rastafarian symbology on their breezy note) actually posted that note, since I could've been in serious trouble on that lead, not expecting such runout on the first pitch.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!