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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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There's two main methods.
The direct method and the indirect method.
The Tvash's, HFCS's etc etc use the indirect method.
"We'll figger it all out ourselves."
Then there's the direct method.
Even the intelligent atheist uses the direct method.
They go to an accredited school to learn from whomever they can get a hold off as the best in the field of what they want to learn.
The Tvash's and HFCS's etc types will sit under a bridge and go "neti neti neti" ("not this not this not this") for lifetimes and still never get it .....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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No one can or will experience it quite the way you do.
An assumption that is, no doubt, backed up by charts and graphs?
The variation of individual experience is a fascinating subject. How different and how similar that experience is can be observed in the remarkable syncretism of human religious life and the resulting mythologies.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 18, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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A forest is just trees viewed at a different scale.
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Nope. You're still whiffing on this one, working as you are off the belief that the whole is no more than a sum of it's parts. And that the parts, or the content, remains the focus even when your focus is wide open. Try and do that your own self and you will quickly realize otherwise. You can't hold your focus open and concentrate on the trees at the same time, anymore than you can run in two directions concurrently.
And that's just the first discursive myth that breaks down.
Imagine what happens when the parts fall away as well.
That's what we call "getting down to the wood." Or non-wood, as it were.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 18, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
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Yeah, I don't know who 'we' is, JL. You star in that video, BTW. The 'we' thing figures prominently.
Anything I say is going to be a whiff to some. I accept that. After all, our experience is unique to us.
The fantastic diversity of religion would seem to support this, no? How many brands of Christianity are there now?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
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After all, our experience is unique to us.
The fantastic diversity of religion would seem to support this, no? How many brands of Christianity are there now?
The foundations of all Christian, Judaic and Islamic belief systems are remarkably syncretic. Similarities are much more apparent than differences. This holds true for mythological belief throughout the world.
To begin with, what is the primary mythological metaphor in all these faiths if not God. Why the ubiquitous nature of a belief in a "divine" being/entity as a source for all that is?
The idea of God or gods is found nearly everywhere in human culture. Why?
Seems we can say humanity is naturally inclined to that idea.
Evolutionary advantage?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Gods are mortal too you know.
specially the Greek ones... such a curious thing: so many cultures, so many deities, somebody should count them up.
I just asked Siri and she told my there are/were approximately 63,000 different religious groups in human history... man that's a lot of deities when you consider that the Hittites claimed 1000 gods of their own. Approx. 440 deities per religion or 28 million deities altogether.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 18, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
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HFCS instead of arguing with DMT, you should try smoking a large dose of DMT alone in silent darkness. I am sure there is a joke there somewhere!
but seriously....its the lazy mans portal to an instant spiritual experience.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 18, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
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stating that gods provide religious commonality is as specific as equating all humans to a donut. which god? veangeful Yahweh? Gentle Jesus? The post human gods of the Mormons? The Manitou?
Yeah. Same same!
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 18, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
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humans evolved to create and believe in myths - to go on faith, as it were. To widely carying degrees.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 18, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
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Anything I say is going to be a whiff to some. I accept that. After all, our experience is unique to us.
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Not so. The CONTENT of our experience in unique to all. The stream of experiences that arise from and fall back into the no-thing that meditatiors and scientists discover just below all the roiling stuff.
The objective commonalities of experience are related not to WHAT you experience but to experiencing itself. The instruments of experience are raw awareness, focus and attention, and can be influenced by both genetic and environmental factors. There are many words (including the "unborn") used to describe the objective aspect of experiencing and none of them are close to it. You're still believing that everything about experience is an interpretation that changes person to person, according to many factors. That is, you are conflating experiencing with content. Teasing this apart is the heart of the work. The strange thing about all of this is that the fundamental (objective) nature of our mind is the same un-born no-thingness that lurks a RCH beneath all the stuff. And since you are in Yoga now, you can brush up against it at the dead-point between exhale and inhale, and the space between poses and thoughts and feelings and sensations.
Subtle non-stuff.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 18, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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The strange thing about all of this is that the fundamental (objective) nature of our mind is the same un-born no-thingness that lurks a RCH beneath all the stuff
No-thingness lurks at the Royal Children's Hospital in Australia? Reproductive & Children's Health? Since your biking companions have told you all is void at the bottom of things you have become very attached to the idea - whether it is true or not. And you are equating your no-thingness epiphany to the physicists' conjecture. You are indeed looking at the woods and not at the differing trees therein, and this may be an exciting revelation in your metaphysical journey, but in the larger scheme of things you are indulging in wishful thinking. We all do at times.
but seriously....its the lazy mans portal to an instant spiritual experience
Doesn't JL tell us we must do the work? This is very confusing.
;>\
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 18, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
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kan i haz DMT?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 18, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
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the no-thing that meditatiors and scientists discover just below all the roiling stuff.
And a band of meditators and scientists shall point the way.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
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stating that gods provide religious commonality is as specific as equating all humans to a donut. which god?
The athletic brilliance of the scientific mind cutting through all subtlety with a bronze potato masher. Kudos!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 18, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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Paul, you sure got some pretty stuff there!
with beauties like this,
Seems we can say humanity is naturally inclined to that idea.
Evolutionary advantage?
seems like a good question
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 18, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
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considering that everything we are is a product of evolution, its not a really a question at all.
The question for any organism is this: is it still fit for the current environment?
Is belief in myth, which must have had some evolutionary advantage during its evolution (more accurately, the neural equipment responsible for belief in myth - which could also be used to create a rich social schema - the advantage of which seems self-evident), still an evolutionary advantage in today's world, or is it, in the balance, a liability?
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 18, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
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Doesn't JL tell us we must do the work? This is very confusing.
yeah, but he should have invested in the newer model.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
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Even the laziest man alive has to do the work.
In kingdom the king said all lazy men come and I'll provide them with free food and shelter.
All the lazy men came.
He ushered them all into one building.
Then set fire to it.
All the lazy men ran out except two, heh heh
The two just rolled over and said it's getting kind warm in here.
The king said these two men are lazy and told his men give them free food and shelter for life ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 18, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
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Is belief in myth, which must have had some evolutionary advantage during its evolution (more accurately, the neural equipment responsible for belief in myth........ still an evolutionary advantage in today's world, or is it, in the balance, a liability?
It depends on which myth. Suicide vests are not an evolutionary advantage. Close knit religious groups who have a vibrant social and cultural life are.
It depends on personal choice - free will naysayers notwithstanding.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
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Is belief in myth, which must have had some evolutionary advantage during its evolution (more accurately, the neural equipment responsible for belief in myth - which could also be used to create a rich social schema - the advantage of which seems self-evident), still an evolutionary advantage in today's world, or is it, in the balance, a liability?
The mistake here is that this isn't about belief, it's about understanding. If you want to believe, or don't want to believe, fine. But in this case understanding is enlightenment.
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