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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Thanks for posting that link. I had to register on that site in order to see this pic along
with the 3 super hi-rez pics of the broken bolt. Is it possible to get a higher rez version
of this pic? I assume it was taken with at least a 5 megapixel camera?
It appears that the bolt is placed at a 45 degree angle, but it's hard to tell from the distance.
I zoomed in on it in Photoshop, but it's knott conclusive. {Edit: I just looked again,
and I would say it actually IS pretty conclusive. It certainly does look to be set
at a 45 degree angle in relation to the surface of the rock}. The bolt does appear
to be protruding from the rock somewhat...
BKW - my offer of two beers was for the bolt-hole (and ideally a wide view as well), knott head of the broken bolt.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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BKW, do you have your receipt?
Or did somebody else buy it?
Do you know if they have a receipt?
What kind of rock is this?
Do you have GPS specs?
I want to look at a geological map while I am going through the stacks on Titanium.
One thing puzzles me.
Why did the bolt break before the host rock came loose?
I thought this was loose rock?
Maybe all the glue sat at one point at the bottom, a fulcrum point so to speak.
This would leave the shaft loose at the top, allowing the bolt to pivot, but still hold.
Or, maybe somebody completely twisted that bolt a couple of times.
This poor guy weighs 210 lbs, so if he were hanging there spinning, he could put enough torque on that part to twist it?
Cool pic.
Looks crystalized with a an external hardness thing done.
Or that's just Titanium Oxide on the outside.
If you have the receipt, then they can trace this back to the Billet or Extrusion used to make this part.
If they got a bad batch of Ti, there miught be other bolts out there ready to snap.
Finding them might be problematic.
Until then, don't clip into anything that looks like TiO2.
Holy Cow this thing looks like it was installed almost horizontally:
I would ask you to go back up and get one of those hi-rez shots of the other half, but we do not need any more drama from that are for at least ten years, thanks.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Here are a couple e-mails I got yesterday - enjoy!
From: John Byrnes
Date: August 5, 2008 11:53:24 AM PDT
To: Dave Buchanan
Subject: Another post
Hey Dr. Rock, how subtle of you to juxtapose a skull and crossbones with a photo of a Tortuga. Take a look at Chiloe's photo of a stainless bolt next to a Tortuga (just one of many he's posted on Supertopo). But of course, you're too stupid to figure that out, so let me advise you. Go to Thailand or Cayman Brac and go climbing. Just don't clip any of the Tortugas. Be sure to have your belayer stand to the side.
Thank you for posting a lot of information about Titanium that you don't understand in a lame attempt to salvage some dignity for your moronic heat-treatment post. As if cutting-and-pasting makes you an expert in metallurgy. Or that you can diagnose cracks in the bolt from a low-res photograph. Or better, Photoshop cracks in.
You think Tortugas will be recalled and you're betting donuts? Or is it dollars? How many? How much IS a dozen of donuts these days?
And finally, your ignorance is stamped "Official" with your complete lack of understanding of how new products are born. They called the Wright Brothers "nuts". That guy Ford is nuts! He's trying to build a $500 automobile that everyone can afford. Bell was nuts too, because who would ever want that thing called a telephone? Having personally been involved in the development of five first-of-their-kind products, I know that when someone calls you nuts it means you've got a really good idea. Good luck Dr. Rock, you need it.
Lord Slime
From: John Byrnes
Date: August 5, 2008 3:27:33 PM PDT
To: Dave Buchanan
Subject: Re: Titanium Bolt Failure. :: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic
That Dr. Rock guy is such a tool. I pegged him perfectly the first time: Bush Admin.
Like George W., he has absolutely no evidence, not even satellite photos of semi-trailers or long aluminum tubes. He doesn't know shít about manufacturing processes. He probably has never held a Ti part of any kind in his hand. Yet, he's convinced he's right and he's selling fear (the skull & crossbones) to support his "conclusion".
It's idiots like this that convinced me to leave the first time, and confirm that I made the right choice. If someone comes up with the bolt, contact me. Barring that, I'm outta here. I'm not getting paid to watch the children in the daycare center.
John, you can post that.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Mystery solved.
Bolt installed at 45 degree angle and protruding from the rock. Not the way it was designed to be used.
For me, this explains the bending and the failure. I will continue to try to assess bolts that I clip when I am out climbing.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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There are bolts that would survive that faulty install.
That's my main point.
Do not count on everybody who installs the bolt to be a Rocket Scientist.
Mr. Slime, where do you guys have these built?
Just curious.
Who supplies the Ti?
Obviously, when you make anything out of Ti, you get to automatically tie it in with the Aerospace industry, the FAA, the 5,289,887,888,887 QC companies,gives the product more props.
Hardman, do you know if Mr. Slime wanted you to post those?
If I were a Professional Engineer, and I wanted people to have faith in my products, I sure the hell would not want people to see stuff like that.
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couchmaster
climber
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Yup, possibly solved, install and lots of load cycles as noted above. Coat hanger. Snap.
Yet still.....?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dr. Schlock wrote:
There are bolts that would survive that faulty install.
Name them...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Infamous quotes from Dr Rock (Who sounds a lot like Drkodos)
"Until then, don't clip into anything that looks like TiO2."
"Again, it does not matter if there was a little slack hanging out."
HAHAHAHA, Oh, I see, installing something improperly has no bearing on its performance? Brilliant. I guess you think it does not matter if you only put one side of your double rap line in the device and though the biner then.
"You want a hanger that you can mis install and bend back and forth til hell freezes over without breaking. "
You might want that, but wish in one hand and sh!t in the other and see which one fills up first. There is no such hanger. GO google metal fatigue and learn why, but don't post endless crap here about it.
Incidentally, I'll be happy to wager that any current climbing stud or bolt installed in the same way will bend and then break. Most will probably break sooner in fact.
"Titaniun has no fudge factor."
Yes, there is no fudge in Ti alloys. Fudge is made of sugar, butter, flour and chocolate, and there is no metal in it really. If you want fudge, go to a fudge factory, or make it yourself from a bos you can get at the grocery store.
Apparently Lord Slime is correct in his assessment of DrRock.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Something looks fishy there. The only bright metal is at the upper edge, probably where the break started. OR POSSIBLY FINISHED
The rest looks funny.
That bright shiny spot is probably where the crack initiated and was present for some time, as evidenced by the shiny surface, indicating polishing over time, from repeated loading (ie, dogging).
Then, as the crack grew, it reached its critical flaw size and the bolt fast fractured. I think the mottled surface shows that fairly well, although a bit more high res. photo would show the direction of the failure a little better methinks.
So, looks like a typical failure. Could have initiated from a very small scratch in the surface of the bolt, or some such?
I'd be interested to see where the shiny crack was in relation to the direction of the eye (hard to tell from the pictures). Looks slightly out of line with the plane of the bolt eye. Looks like its on top of the bolt, just slight off to the side a few degrees?
-Brian in SLC
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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If you're dumb enough to trust your life to a bolt that is very obviously placed badly, you should stay in the gym. That thing was crap no matter if it was steel, ti, or unobtanium.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Hey, wait a minute, whats the difference between that install and a bolt placed in a vertical wall?
The loading is the same, be it a fall, or a static load, which, BTW, really freaks me out.
This thing did not snap during a fall, folks, it snapped while a guy was just hanging there!
Much less of a shock to the part in question.
There is an old saying in the ME world, if it don't bend, it breaks.
Look at the wings of a 747.
They flex 30 feet.
This thing did not flex much.
I have bent coat hangers that have taken more stress than that thing.
They got a little hot, but WTF, over?
Makes great welding rod.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dr. Schlock - name the suitable bolts for that install job, troll...
Dirtineye wrote:
Infamous quotes from Dr Rock (Who sounds a lot like Drkodos)
LOL! I was thinking the same thing. Is the good doctor back?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Brian, I am not so sure about that.
It is possible that the shiny bit is the last thing that failed.
if it is on the compressed side of the bend , then this is almost certainly the case. If it is on the other side, then yes it probably failed first.
BUT, the odd color of the granulated stuff in the break really bothers me.
Incidentally, I agree that the bolt was installed at too great an angle, and not with the rign embedded, BUT, you probably should not drill straight up for a gluein, cause all that is holding in that bolt is the glue.
I think I have seen something in the past about NOT using glueins for this sort of application for that very reason.
Think about it. You have a smooth hole. You fill it with glue and stick a shaft in it. The Glue and the glue alone is going to deal with every downward force ever put on that bolt, and this is NOT the case in a normal gluein scenario, where the glue just holds the bolt still and the rock and the bolt do all the work.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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You guys, I am 53, way too old to get personal.
Sorry I am no fun in that aspect.
Besides, I do not want anybody to cut my rope.
Wait a minute, I don't use a rope.
Why?
This thread is one reason.
If I am going to die, I want it to be my fault, not some minimum wage welder across the pond.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Unrepentant vanity repost for my own words to be at the top, LOL.
Brian, I am not so sure about that.
It is possible that the shiny bit is the last thing that failed.
if it is on the compressed side of the bend , then this is almost certainly the case. If it is on the other side, then yes it probably failed first.
BUT, the odd color of the granulated stuff in the break really bothers me.
Incidentally, I agree that the bolt was installed at too great an angle, and not with the rign embedded, BUT, you probably should not drill straight up for a gluein, cause all that is holding in that bolt is the glue.
I think I have seen something in the past about NOT using glueins for this sort of application for that very reason.
Think about it. You have a smooth hole. You fill it with glue and stick a shaft in it. The Glue and the glue alone is going to deal with every downward force ever put on that bolt, and this is NOT the case in a normal gluein scenario, where the glue just holds the bolt still and the rock and the bolt do all the work.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dirtineye - I did a bit of study of Hilti C-100 and HY-150 adhesives, and while I'm certainly
no expert, I can assure you that the compound literally becomes one with the rock;
there's absolutely no way the glue bond is going to fail before the bolt (virtually any bolt)
breaks. A while ago I posted a scanned experiment of the German DAV doing pull tests
of bolts that were specially designed to exceed the strength of the various glues in use.
The Hilti C-100 won out of all the glues tested, and failed at over 50 kN, far exceeding any
force humanly possible in a climbing application.
Hilti C-100 is what Ushba recommended for the Tortugas, and it's been replaced with HY-150.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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This one seems bomber.......
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I'm focused on that ring. I doubt it's machined in, but possible. Machining is slow and expensive in Ti.
If it's pressed or rolled in, then the break happened right where the metal would yield the most during the process.
Any comment here on how that feature is put in?
The other bolts on the market use less agressive and intrusive features for the glue.
If the bottom of the ring were 8mm diameter, the bolt would be less strong than an equivalent 8mm rod, even less so if the metal was just yielded.
sigma = My/I for an 8mm rod is ~1E10 pa, with Ti alloys snapping at around 9E9 - assuming a 1kN load 5 cm from the break, normal to it. The 1E10 Pa # will actually be much less given the geometrey of the ring (it's a "stress riser"), and any possible yielding during manufacture.
Basically, the bolt design seems weak to me.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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In the photo of the broken bolt end, you can see that the weld is opposite the shiny part of the break. So the bolt would have fractured until there was a thin section of metal left, which would bend before failing- like the 'hinge' when falling a tree.
From the in- place photo, it doesn't appear that the rock is cratered. It looks like it just wasn't inserted all the way.
P.S. I love my titanium (carpentry) hammer, and tried to love the Ushba nut tool, but the wire gate clip fell apart.
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