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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Oct 30, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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all these extra universes, very exciting.
i keep thinking about the universe where annie leybourne didn't think i was too dangerous for her back in 1968 and we got married, had kids, and i eventually became poet-in-residence at cambridge university after they realized i was giving john donne a run for his money and was probably, indeed, the reincarnation of percy bysshe shelley, whose body happened to wash up on the beach at viareggio where my parents spent time conceiving me. i wonder how many universes percy went through before he got around to being me. no matter. at cambridge i would have been able to pester several dozen ed hartounis, making it my business to put their explorations into verbiage which cut through all the opaque math.
the other good alternative universe might have been spending more time with ruth johanna müller, who looked oh so good in that blue polkadot two-piece when she swam all the way across lake zumbra and back. we woulda spent lots of time in the boundary waters canoe area, me not giving a damn how her swiss german accent gave my mom flashbacks to world war 2, and plunging right into a hot erotic relationship with the use of condoms, which my dad, by another happy coincidence in this fortuitous universe, would have told me were great things to use, the catholic church be damned, even though he had signed papers that i was supposed to be raised catholic. ruth and i would have moved back to her native zurich and i would be an alpinist now, not just a lowly rockclimber.
maybe a universe for connie frana, who had probably the best body language i've ever encountered. you see, beauty is essentially a four-dimensional thing. yes, there is plenty of two- and three-dimensional beauty, but it's over time that it comes across in unexpected and enlightening ways. connie played hard-to-get and later regretted it by the time i had already hooked up with my first wife. i lived to regret it too.
my current wife, mariko, in all retrospect, often makes me feel that alternative universes don't matter at all, e.e. cummings' suggestion about the hell of a good universe next door notwithstanding.
cummings may have influenced hawking. i wonder whether stephen spends a lot of time thinking about that universe where his body stayed healthy and his spacetime experience of playboy centerfolds managed to go well beyond the printed page.
rrradam, welcome back. tell us where your sailboat has been.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 30, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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madbolter1 - now I think I'm the one that's been misunderstood...
you have provided us with your view of mathematics, which is rather orthodox, but you have stated that mathematical principles are beyond empirical, that they come from some deep universal truth apart from everything else
But you have not given us any real reason to believe that, you have stated it as fact...
...and it might be.
However, you have also not provided a reason why mathematics could not be generated in the same way the rest of the universe is, that the mathematics in our universe may be specific to the properties of the universe. The pythagorean theorem makes a statement regarding the distance between two points in an orthonormal coordinate system... you know, of course, that it fails on the surface of a sphere. But my point here is that that particular example is intimately tied to the nature of space-time.
If you take that a step further, say that space-time itself is really the result of the operations that transform one state into another... so that distance is really a result of the state change, say in momentum space... then the properties of those operators generate what we know to be "space"...
similarly, those same operations define a logical system by their algebraic properties.
Space and time and logic and everything else come out of those properties...
and are specific to the universe which those properties describe.
Not saying it is true, saying it could be true....
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 30, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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Without a Grand Unified Theory sanctioned by liberal evidence...how conceptually empowered is one individual in declaring God is not necessary to set the universe in motion? How legitimate are journalists in hyping Dr Hawking's abstractions and opinions toward a brawl with the Pope ?
Other comments by Stephen Hawking:
"What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. "
Der Spiegel (17 October 1988)
"I'm not religious in the normal sense. I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."
Quoted in "Stephen Hawking prepares for weightless flight", New Scientist (26 April 2007)
"If we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason — for then we would know the mind of God."
Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 30, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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Crodog - cool link...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 31, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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hey Tony, have you ever read Constance Reid's biography Hilbert?
Reid's obituary was in the NYTimes this week...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/books/26reid.html
...my point above is not that you are going to make important contributions to mathematics, but it is possible to understand it at a level much more advanced than 'rithmetic, and maybe see some of the beauty in it... and the interesting ideas from it...
Jennie, I think that Hawkings is just "voicing" what I think is a more and more prevailing view... in terms of the universe, there is less and less need to appeal to any supernatural explanation. And Hawkings knows full well that anything he says about science is subject to test, and can be shown to be wrong. He's been wrong before, after all, a big advantage over those who claim they cannot be wrong.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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If one learns 1234567890 he then has studied the entirety of mathematics.
Simply changing the places of these ten figures is "mathematics" .....
:-)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2010 - 02:46am PT
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Computer only has zero and one arranged in so many ways.
Zero = impersonalists
One = personality
Without the ONE there would be none .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 31, 2010 - 03:08am PT
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{0} ≠ {}
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 31, 2010 - 08:23am PT
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Skipt-
Thanks for the podcast reference on Hawking's new book. That was definitely interesting and worthwhile.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Oct 31, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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The Pope's "God" will always be Jehovah (aka Yahweh aka the God of Abraham). That "God" is world's apart from the "Cosmic Governance" that Einstein and Hawkings called "God".
More and more people nowadays - because of the sciences and the Scientific Story - are thinking in terms of a First Cause or a Cosmic Governance behind the cosmos that they sometimes call "God" for purposes of conversation, storytelling, poetry, politics, circumstance, etc.
Even I do, on occasion: Thank God I was born in North America during a science and technology revolution and not the Middle East in the 700s in an Ayatollah's court. Yeah, thank God!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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The defect of the modern civilization and this High Fructose Corn Spirit.
He/one does not know, and he wants to teach.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Oct 31, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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The "defect of the modern civilization" is that it is unsustainable. But that is another issue.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Oct 31, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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Hey, say there, CroDog. Cool link.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Oct 31, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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Now that's funny and demonstrates the extent to which you are quick to dismiss somebody that doesn't agree with you for any reason. Ed stated that I didn't understand mathematical logic. I responded that I certainly did and better than most even among trained philosophers. YOUR response is that I'm being self-righteous.
Oh well, I guess that nobody is prepared to be reasonable on this subject. Instead of giving me ANY points, even those to which I'm clearly entitled, people are simply determined to claim EVERY point, even those to which they CLEARLY are not entitled.
On the contrary, I don't dismiss people that don't agree with me. I just am very leary of people that think that a big part of their argument is that they know more than the next person. I don't claim to know the answer or claim every point. I just think that a discussion of the issues should be looked at logically. When the argument reaches a point where the basis of difference is tied to that person's fundamental beliefs, it should be recognized, the discussion is probably not going much further.
I grew up in a very fundamentalist christian family, and my parents still are. I became a scientist (geophysicist), and to this day I have long discussions with them about a myriad of subjects that we have agreed to disagree about. I don't think anyone is entitled to "points" based on their education, social status, or conviction. We're all just trying to get by the best we can in this world, and my parents personal beliefs have helped them greatly in getting along with their problems. I do take issue when they try to push those beliefs on me or anyone else (I had a strong discussion with my mother when she told, my then, 8yr old son that the earth was only 10,000yrs old).
So, I'm sorry if I offended you.
When an interviewer came to talk to Harry Trumans mother, after he became President, she was asked how proud she was of her son. Her answer was "I have another son out there working in the field that I'm just as proud of"
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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The "defect of the modern civilization" is that it is unsustainable.
No .... it's easily sustainable.
Modern civilization is mismanaged.
They poured High Fructose Corn Spirit into everything ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 31, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Here is a quote from Steven Weinberg's 1971 book Gravitation and Cosmology - Principles and Applications of The General Theory of Relativity
"Physics is not a finished logical system. Rather, at any moment it spans a great confusion of ideas, some survive like folk epics from the heroic periods of the past, and others arise like utopian novels from our dim premonitions of a future grand synthesis. The author of a book on physics can impose order on this confusion by organizing his material in either of two ways: by recapitulating its history, or by following his own best guess at to the ultimate logical structure of physical law. Both methods are valuable; the great thing is not to confuse physics with history, or history with physics."
I invite you to read that and think about it in the context of this discussion... it actually reveals a profound insight into the differences of physics and religion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Oct 31, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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Steven Weinberg, yeah!
.....
So I'm trying to think of an example of (1) how one might "confuse physics with history, or history with physics" and (2) how this might be detrimental or unproductive in an impractical sort of way. So far, it eludes (alludes) me...
Oh, I think I get it, the context. Physics (or cosmology) can either (a) describe the history of the cosmos or (b) describe, model or speculate on the physical laws that govern the cosmos in real time. The two are distinct. Please correct me if his meaning were something else.
.....
EDIT Thanks, Cap'n.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Oct 31, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Eludes, Spirited One. Alludes is a different word completely. And I believe misses the mark on your point. Unless it's a quirky joke?
Pretty quirky, if so. Cheers!
Edit: I laughed, anyway. I'm kinda quirky.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 31, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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When an interviewer came to talk to Harry Trumans mother, after he became President, she was asked how proud she was of her son. Her answer was "I have another son out there working in the field that I'm just as proud of"
Yeah, but if she needed her appendix out, I'm guessing that she would have gone to a doctor rather than to her farm-working son.
Pride has nothing to do with it.
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