Health Care changes

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madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 01:24pm PT

Gotta hand it to Ron Paul - He singlehandedly wiped out the collective work of every high school civics teacher from the past fifty years.

The last fifty years of (bumbling, confused) high school civics teaching is a large part of why we're in our present mess.

Again, you just help me and help me make my case.

Please, please continue!

dirtbag

climber

Nov 14, 2013 - 01:34pm PT

Christ,

Yes the tax system is base on coercion.

So f*#king what?

You want to live in a real life ayn rand masturbatory fantasyland? Go to Somalia. No pesky social contract there.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Nov 14, 2013 - 01:36pm PT

It looks like my wish from yesterday might actually have some traction. In today's Wall Street Journal Opinion pages there was both an editorial and a column on fixing, rather than gutting, the ACA. I will continue to hope, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that the Republicans will take this opportunity to do more than say "I told you so."

Two other comments:

(1) Congressional approval ratings mean nothing, because we don't elect Congress. We elect two Senators and one Representative. The relevant statistic measures the approval of the members by their respective electorates. I have yet to see such a poll's results.

(2) Medicare, despite Norton's protestations, is actuarily insolvent. It is not "broke" because it has sufficient funds to pay its current debts as they come due. Neither is it "bankrupt," because the Bankruptcy Code has no provision allowing any federal program to file for bankruptcy protection.

Rather, Medicare is like a homeowner with an interest-only mortgage, and a balloon payment coming due in a few years. The homeowner has the funds to pay the interest strokes, but not the balloon payment. If we conclude that since Medicare is neither broke nor bankrupt we need do nothing to fix it, we are like the homeowner ignoring the balloon payment. With relatively minor fixes, however, we can deal with the balloon payment coming up.

Thus, Medicare's issues aren't so much its solvency as they are governmental prudence. While that obviously has implications on turning over 18% of our GDP to the government, I would hesitate to draw too many conclusions about affordability from Medicare's experience.

John

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 02:49pm PT

Yes the tax system is base on coercion.... No pesky social contract there.

Nobody is denying that there can be legitimate coercion. But the "social contract" you refer to quite explicitly limited exactly what coercion was going to be allowed. Mostly due to perversions of the interstate commerce clause, we are now light-years away from the "social contract" that was "agreed to."

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 03:30pm PT

"Read the Federalist Papers" is code for "the Constitution says whatever I want it to say."

What an punt.

ARGUE for a particular interpretation and see if yours coheres with the texts and with rationality.

Have you read the part about paper money? You might look at the history of that one and see whether it's possible to coherently fit the "Federal Reserve" (talk about a double-speak name!) into those principles.

Or, you could just punt.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 03:36pm PT

Look it up, read a book, do your research!

While you're frothing at the mouth, Dave, could you pause long enough to answer a few simple questions about what "research" your particular perspective is based upon?

* Have you actually read the Federalist Papers through, cover to cover? Any annotations or cross-references to anything else?

* Have you actually read the Anti-Federalist Papers through, cover to cover? Annotations? Cross-references?

* Have you ever taught a university level seminar (even just one) on political philosophy or political science?

* Is your educational background in any way involved in political philosophy or political science?

* Have you ever written a single, formal paper on the subject of politics, political philosophy, or political science?

Well, you get the point. "Do your research" is pretty lame, when I can demonstrate that I actually have, and I seriously doubt if you can follow suit.

But I could well be way off regarding your background. Enlighten me!

Care to ante up? Or shall the frothing continue?

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Nov 14, 2013 - 03:43pm PT

Mad and J.Shiloh ..... thank you for you clear thinking.

Climbs to a new hi in ST history.....

And to GARY.... why can't you see that a person who gets about 30 seconds of training to run the french fry system at Jack in the Box is not worth as much pay per hour as a person who spends 40 hours in training, and gets the skills to drive a truck?

I bet you work for the gov... and have never been a boss, with your own $$$$$ in the enterprise. If you ever had you would know just how stupid you sound. No offence intended.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 03:46pm PT

Thank you, guyman.

Dave: lol.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Nov 14, 2013 - 03:51pm PT

Guyman, we's gots us doctors on SuperTopo and it ain't doin' us a lick o'
gud. We definitely needs us a full time garbage man, don't you agree?

Gary

Social climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Nov 14, 2013 - 04:53pm PT

And to GARY.... why can't you see that a person who gets about 30 seconds of training to run the french fry system at Jack in the Box is not worth as much pay per hour as a person who spends 40 hours in training, and gets the skills to drive a truck?

And the person who works at Jack in the Box deserves starvation wages so the CEO can make $5,305,780 in 2011?
http://www.forbes.com/profile/linda-lang/

Have you ever worked? Would you know work if it bit you in the butt? No offense intended.

Reilly:

Guyman, we's gots us doctors on SuperTopo and it ain't doin' us a lick o'
gud. We definitely needs us a full time garbage man, don't you agree?

You know what I meant, you're not stupid.

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Nov 14, 2013 - 05:08pm PT

Gary... yes I have been bitten in the ass before....

What one gets paid is pretty much what one is worth.

If a CEO is getting to much... well that is up to the share holders who employ the CEO.

EDIT: I wold kill to get paid what my local Garbage Man gets.... seariously

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Nov 14, 2013 - 05:47pm PT

I've seen their commercials. The Jack in the Box CEO does have some unique qualifications.

Good one, Dave!

John

rincon

Trad climber

SoCal

Nov 14, 2013 - 06:09pm PT

What one gets paid is pretty much what one is worth.

If only that were true!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 06:11pm PT

Yup, "our" Obumbler in Chief... barely elected by an almost perfectly divided country.

Change? Anybody see any loose change around here? I heard that somewhere around here was a big pile of change....

Snowmassguy

Trad climber

Calirado

Nov 14, 2013 - 06:25pm PT

Instead, we get Obama's grand gesture. Pathetic.

Yep!

My policy is still canceled. Why would the insurance company reissue a superior policy for less money???

Is Obama making it law that the insurance companies need to honor the rates and policies that they currently offer on 2013?

Don't think so. He is only saying that the insurance companies COULD offer current policies and I do not predict "greedy" insurance co's will be offering the current 2013 rates as " the cost of insurance" has gone up under Obamacare.

This is a HUGE mess and the public will suffer because of it.

Larry Nelson

Social climber

Nov 14, 2013 - 06:27pm PT

madbolter1 wrote:
Change? Anybody see any loose change around here? I heard that somewhere around here was a big pile of change....

Yeah, the Department of the Treasury has been working overtime for about 5 years printing change. Have we normalized the word "trillion" yet?

CrackAddict

Trad climber

Canoga Park, CA

Nov 14, 2013 - 06:56pm PT

The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.

I don't believe healthcare is a fundamental right either, but a very very good idea, that surely promotes the general welfare, which is one of the explicitly stated purposes of the Federal government.

TE

"Welfare" is not specified here, and there is a reason healthcare and education are not mentioned in the Constitution - they are to be left to the States, as with all other things unspecified in the Constitution. Do you think Healthcare is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote this?? Really??? If so, what happened to "Jeffersoncare" or "Washingtoncare"? Were they shot down by a do-nothing congress?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Nov 14, 2013 - 07:45pm PT

It is both funny and tragic to see such a "true believer" at work. Rather than to do the hard work of intellectual honesty, he invests a tiny shred of that effort... but ALL devoted to finding SOMETHING, anything, that can "establish" that "congress has done this sort of thing from the very beginning."

The mark of the intellectually dishonest is that they LEAP onto anything that MAKES their case but don't actively seek out and even consider the many ways that their case really is not as "obvious" or "slam-dunk" as they themselves just "know" it to be.

Well, it took me all of two minutes to find "the other side of the story."

To whit....

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/297347/founders-loved-mandates-matthew-j-franck

Just a start. I won't waste more time on it. Arguments can rage back and forth. The POINT is that arguments can rage back and forth; so no "side" of this thing is "obvious" nor "slam dunk."