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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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ME Climb writes:
"I know this opinion will get me flamed here but, based on what I am seeing Thomas was actively resisting during the entire fight."
He was in a FIGHT FOR HIS LIFE. He apparently didn't *resist* enough.
NO citizen has any obligation to lay back and accept a beating. NO citizen.
Thomas had NO obligation to stay in a "position of disadvantage" once that fat cop told him he was going to "f*#k" him up.
"See these fists. They're getting ready to f*#k you up" is what's known as a terrorist threat - no matter what "if" qualifier you want to add on to it. Once issued, Thomas had every right to resist in any way he could - up to lethal force, if necessary.
If the fat cop had simply said "stand up and put your hands behind your back", instead of issuing his criminal terrorist threat, then what Thomas did could have been considered resisting arrest.
But that's not what the cop said, because the cop didn't want to arrest Thomas. The cop wanted Thomas in a "position of disadvantage" so he could "f*#k you up", NOT effect a lawful arrest.
You don't have to lie back and accept a beating. Ever.
I don't see how anyone - especially anyone who carries a badge - can defend this.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Eric's opinion is a very telling preview of what we will hear in court.
Even if what he said about the father is true, why say it?
(We all know why; blue wall)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The guy was obviously totally calm and attempting to cooperate (even if his understanding was limited) and not threatening at all until he was threatened with violence and then assaulted.
When you're kicking somebody's ass, and beating their face in, it's hard for them to comply with orders to put their hands behind their back. It's just a human response to protect from beating
and 6 cops can't manage to handcuff a guy without killing him?
Not cool
Peace
Karl
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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He did not care about his son, and had a restraining order against him. He is out for the money
Sometimes you have to get a restraining order against people you love and care about.
Eric, I seriously think you are advocating for the cops, interesting spin. Good cops handle situations like this everyday in this country with beating people to death.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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Eric's comments and perspective remind me why citizens want independent investigations into killings where cops are involved. Not cops investigating cops.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I respect fattrads opinion, although I might not agree. I do take issue with his statement that it was "perfectly handled". Come on fatty, at least admit that it was not perfect.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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You make me sick.
Wbat is even more twisted is that this is how he gets his jollies..by trying to disgust people.
.....
For the record.. He had no drugs or alcohol in his system according to the DA. The PDF posted earlier in this thread is where I found this information.
I think the first cop created this whole mess with his threats and with how he handled the suspect. It is very hard to sit straight legged with your hands on your knees for very long. With my bad back I couldn't do it. Add in mental illness and you have a recipe for disaster.
I think the second arresting cop is getting off because he is cooperating. I find it hard to believe that he didn't hear all of the threats. With radios going it is possible, but there were a lot of threats.
I don't have an opinion about the cop who used the taser. I didn't look very deep at that.
The other cops just appeared to be responding to a suspect resisting arrest. They were not witness to the threats that caused the suspect to fear for his life, which set him off, so I don't see a problem with how they handled it. It is very hard to cuff someone who is resisting.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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I am not trying to put a police spin on it. Again this is my opinion and I came to it based on what I saw on the video. If you read my comments up thread I earlier agreed with the prosecution of these guys. T-Rack misrepresented what happened during his press conference. I am basing my opinion on established case law pertaining to use of force.
Ramos's statements were not terrorist threats. It was a tactical tool. I would not have handled the call that way. I am to old and fat to be fighting people into handcuffs. My goal is to always talk someone into them. That doesn't always work though.
This is a tragic situation and I am sorry that Thomas does during the incident. This tragedy began with the failure of our mental health system and I would love to see it improved.
I just don't see anything illegal in what the officers did.
I video and audio tape all of my contacts. I would never have a problem with any outside review panel that is familiar with police tactics, use of force, and policy to review any of my contacts
Eric
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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For us the carotid restraint is on par with lethal force......not a true option.
Eric
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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During the fight (which is one of the longest police fights I have ever seen) Thomas is yelling he cannot breath. If he could not breath he would not have been able to yell
I'd like to give you a good, prolonged choking, not quite 100% (in which case you likely couldn't say anything), but say 90% (yeah I know it's tough to put into a percentage).
Be interesting to see what words would come out of your mouth.
Since this is just a thought experiment, it would be all the better if you didn't know that you wouldn't actually be choked and/or beaten to death.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If the cop needed to threaten Thomas - for whatever reason ( I didn't see any ) - why didn't the cop simply threaten to take Thomas to jail?
That way, when the cop put hands on Thomas it would be an obvious attempt to arrest Thomas.
The cop forfieted all authority when he threatened to kill for no reason, because anything he does after that point can reasonably be seen as an attempt to carry out that threat.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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It is pretty hard to sit in that position for very long.
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Defense-Trainer
Social climber
East LA
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What the officers did was 100% illegal.
First from the threats which constitutes a police brutality suite.
Second from using what is considered to be roit gear against an unarmed man.
Third by tortuer.
Fourth by premeditated homocide.
All of which are capital offences.
Punnishable by life in prison.
As a trainer of Security officers, and Peace officers, I Have never taught any of my students to hit and strike.
They are always taught to block, evade, grab, and push.
Never are they taught to induce pain(it's illegal).
What I see in cases like this is the officers using the badge to masquerade about and commit violent crimes.
In my professional opinion.
These Officers should have been charged with the most sever charges possible.
They commited these malice acts of violence against an unarmed man.
These officers offer a perverse epitome of what it means to be a hero. This is a display of an absolute hatred of freedom and liberity.
All of these officers should be locked up.
They have provided the worst example of what it means to be a man-
To be all you can be.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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It's called a fight, unfortunately that sometimes happens.
Yeah, just like with Rodney King.
Fattrad, your posts are just more evidence that there are no good cops -- just varying degrees of rottenness.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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What the officers did was 100% illegal.
First from the threats which constitutes a police brutatility suite.
Second from using what is considered to be roit gear against an unarmed man.
Third by tortuer.
Fourth by premeditated homocide.
All of which are capital offences.
Punnishable by life in prison.
As a trainer of Security officers, and Peace officers, I Have never taught any of my students to hit and strike.
They are always taught to block, evade, grab, and push.
Never are they taught to induce pain(it's illegal).
What I see in cases like this is the officers using the badge to masquerade about and commit violent crimes.
In my professional opinion.
These Officers should have been charged with the most sever charges possible.
They commited these malice acts of violence against an unarmed man.
These officers offer a perverse epitome of what it means to be a hero. This is a display of an absolute hatred of freedom and liberity.
All of these officers should be locked up.
They have provided the worst example of what it means to be a man-
To be all you can be.
Hmm, first post, I smell a rat.
I hope the instruction he provides is better than the spelling.
100% illegal?
What is 80% illegal?
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Sometimes it takes many officers to take someone into custody. I have seen people do push ups with over 600 lbs worth of cops on their back. Yes I did see the pictures of Thomas's face. Ever use of force is violent . There is no way around it. The officers did not threaten to kill him. The threat was "see this fists? They will f you up, if you don't listen".
Since when are batons, and a taser riot control weapons? Batons, control holds, pepper spray, mace, and a taser in drive stun mode or all pain compliance techniques. All of which are accepted tools for police officers. Case decision after case decision support the use of these weapons.
When control holds, batons, and a taser don't work you must go to plan d.
Eric
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Defense-Trainer
Social climber
East LA
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You smell a rat eh?
It is probably because you need to go brush your teeth.
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