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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Apr 29, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
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Michael Feldman's points address the heart of the problem. Sherpas have not used their market power to gain higher pay and purchase insurance as they feel is needed. This is a typical labor issue repeated all over the world. They want monopoly power (on who can climb the mountain, and when one can do it), and at the same time lack union power to have a pay increase. It will be very difficult for them to make progress as long as other persons (Sherpas or not) are willing to take the risk at the same pay. Competition is a very powerful force, and I am not surprised that not much progress has been made. It is pure economics.
Granite girl, the missing element in your analysis is the religious one; Sherpas do not treat the mountain as a job site as they view Everest as a sacred place. They do not want to change it in any way (blow it up, install a tram, ...)
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Apr 29, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
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Fort - not correct. You are assessing the risk of being hit by an avalanche versus the likelihood of an avalanche occurring. An ice avalanche such as this occurs when it occurs. Experts have yet to be able to predict them (thus, prevention like at ski slopes is also not really practical unless you just blew up entire hanging glaciers). You are correct, however, that the more time you spend in avalanche danger, the more chance you have of being hit by one.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 29, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
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What has the Nepali Government done so so per financial assistance? I would be very interested in hearing how much "high cast" Hindus have actually paid out the Sherpas, if anything. The actual dollars and cents that have exchanged hands after this tragedy. My guess is that little to no gov. funds have gone to the Sherpa community. I truly hope I am wrong.
JL
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Barbarian
climber
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Apr 29, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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Largo - I believe I read in the news that the government paid $413 to the families of the deceased. I'll try to find the source and post here.
In the interest of fairness, if I cannot find the source, or if the amount is incorrect, I will amend my post.
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Apr 29, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
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Accepting the risks. But now wanting more compensation for doing so.
That's fine. Wished the Sherpa porters would clip into the ropes more often, it might slow them down to Western guide speeds though.
And wished the SPCC used a more consultative approach when dictating the route which Western companies must ask their Sherpa teams to use.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
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I just did some calculations from the list of altitude workers (sherpas) who have died on Everest since 1922 as provided by the Liz Hawley's Himalayan Database and a local Nepalese paper.
http://nepalitimes.com/article/nation/Russian-roulette-on-mount-everest,1312
I was surprised to see that of the 104 killed, 17 of them were non Sherpas by ethnicity. I also noted, that the non Sherpas suffered death from different causes than those born Sherpa. I would be interested to see a list of the international climbers who have died, but I'm sure their stats would be similar to the tribals and Hindus who worked as sherpas.
86 Sherpas Killed
37 Killed Avalanches
13 Ice Fall Collapse
3 Rockfall
62%
15 Falling
5 Crevasse
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23%
4 AMS
5 Non AMS or Cardiac
1 Exhaustion
1 Unknown
2 Other
15%
17 Non Sherpas Killed
Tribals:
4 Tamang
2 Gurung
1 Newar
1 Magar
1 Rai
1 Mixed Sherpa -Hindu
Hindus:
5 High Caste Hindus
2 Hindus No Last Name
6 Died Avalanches
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35%
2 Died Falling
1 Died Crevasse
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18%
1 Died from Exposure
2 Died Non AMS
5 Died AMS
47%
Among the Sherpas, parts of the mountain falling on them (rock, ice and snow avalanches) were the main cause of death, with failure of their health at high altitude the least common.
Among the non Sherpa Nepalese health failure was the most common, followed by avalanches.
Among the non Sherpas there was even a distinction between the tribal people most closely related to Sherpas (mixed Sherpa-Hindu, Tamang and Gurung) who lived at middle altitude (6,000-8,000) but higher than the others (Newar, Magar, and Rai) in rates of death from altitude. Those who lived lower suffered the most from it.
Among the still lower dwelling Hindus, these differential rates are even more clear as 71% of them died due to health failures from altitude.
And these figures clearly illustrate why Sherpas will always have a monopoly on high altitude work on the southside of Everest.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
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Everest is a money magnet for Nepal and the Khumbu. This is about who gets what slice of the pie with the likelihood that the Western guiding concerns will make less money in future years.
Not much sympathy in the rest of Nepal for the shenanigans on Everest, except at the Tourism Bureau.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
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Jan, your analysis does not make sense. You are trying to correlate ethnicity or the altitude of residence of the victims with the cause of death. Avalanches do not discriminate on who is killed. The victims can be of any ethnicity since they do not have any control over the avalanche or ice fall. What is needed is sample size (the number of Sherpas and non-Sherpas on the mountain, and which section they worked on). The only thing that could possibly show a correlation is the medical death, especially AMS. However, there is no differentiation by altitude and again we need the sample size to make any sense. For example, AMS can be treated much more easily at base camp than at the South col, so a breakdown is needed. In any case, the number of cases is not large enough to be statistically significant. One needs about 30 observations in each sample to even have a 5% significance level. Lets hope this number is never reached. The bottom line is that no conclusion can be reached based on the numbers provided.
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Apr 30, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
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The commercialism of climbing mountains killed these people.
I feel saddened that our sport is now at this level.
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
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The Khumbu will continue to be a less and less stable environment during climbing season, as the region is affected by climate change more. I was reading a journal paper on the fact that the dry ablation zone on that glacier has been significantly moving uphill over the last 2 decades. Upshot: We can only expect an increase in serac fall. The obvious solution is that more of these so called "expeditions" should use the Rongbuk side of the mountain. Which entails some logistical problems for sherpas, as it's on the Tibetan side of the hill.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 30, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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Guck-
I am well aware that avalanches do not discriminate as to who is killed.
If you look at the original source material as quoted,
http://nepalitimes.com/article/nation/Russian-roulette-on-mount-everest,1312
you will see that the location of their death on Everest is noted.
In fact, there are a lot of ambiguities in the Himalayan Data Base. However, anthropologists work with what is available, which is almost never an academic ideal, including sample size.
Looking at this small sample however, I am willing to say that people from lower altitude have no business on Everest as their chance of dying from altitude sickness is great, particularly when competing with Sherpas for weight of loads carried, number of trips, and altitude gained. Anecdotally this has been accepted for many years, now we at least have some numerical if not statistically valid proof.
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trad_guy
Mountain climber
Bend, Oregon, USA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
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I am not sure whether or not this has been previously posted here. Rock and Ice has emailed a subscriber bonus feature of three pages on the failing ice fall and cancellation of summit attempts on Mt. Everest from Base Camp: Tipping Point on Everest, By Freddie Wilkinson http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/tipping-point-on-everest?page=1
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 30, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
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Thanks for the reference trad_guy! That article by Wilkinson was just eerily prescient.My hair was standing on end as I read it.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Apr 30, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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While people always yearn for the golden years, they are rarely as golden as remembered, nor are the memories thereof necessarily accurate.
Everest has almost always been commercial. From the earliest expeditions, the climbers worried about sponsors, publicity, etc., without which their expeditions would not have occurred. There were always climbers who were true masters of the sport, and those who were not - often together. It was not unusual for wealthier "clients" to be brought along in consideration for funding. While there were trips which involved less funding, and did not have "clients" or "guides," the same is true today.
The only real difference today is that the "science" of climbing Everest has become far more exact, and (perhaps as a result) there are now more climbers on the mountain. These climbers are comprised of skilled "Western" guides, skilled Sherpa, skilled clients, less skilled clients, completely unguided groups, and independent climbers (or teams) who have paid to join a commercial expedition permit but are climbing independently.
My point is not to say what is right or wrong, but simply that this is the way things have always been - there is just more of it now. Does more mean more death? Certainly. However, the "more" has also resulted in a great leap in technology, weather reports, technique, etc., all of which have made things more safe. Look at the statistics of summits to deaths on Everest over the years and you will see that the period of great commercialism has also led to a much safer mountain. Compare that to some of the other less commercial 8,000 meter peaks and you will see that there has been no such great change in "safety."
Of course, notwithstanding the above, more death is more death, even if the percentage of death has dropped. It is just not as simple as some try to make it. The concept of the guided clown is also not as simple, nor is it true that all guided clients are somehow unqualified.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 30, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
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To keep the good old days in perspective, Hillary's first words on being congratulated for his successful climb of the Sherpa's mountain goddess was "Ya, we knocked the bastard off".
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jstan
climber
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Apr 30, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
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Everest on the other hand said. "Heh. This is only the beginning."
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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@ Michael Feldman: there have been 24 sherpas killed in the last 3 climbing seasons on Everest. Although what you say about climbing becoming safer is partially true, it is only true for the non-sherpas. Which would make me suggest that you've pretty much missed the entire point of the curent problem and current debate. Sherpas have a higher fatality probability than military personnel did in Iraq. I would suggest that it's time for whitey to start carrying their own loads a little more. Because nothing cuts down on the unnecessary expedition weight like making the clients, or shall we call them "climbers" carry their own weight. Or maybe it's time for these swarms of alleged "climbers" to start coming in from the Chinese, Rongbuk Glacier side of the mountain, which has a less risky business glacial situation.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/mountaineering/By-the-Numbers-Everest-Fatality-Rates.html
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Scott Patterson
Mountain climber
Craig
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Michael Feldman: there have been 24 sherpas killed in the last 3 climbing seasons on Everest. Although what you say about climbing becoming safer is partially true, it is only true for the non-sherpas.
It's hard to say whether the mountain has truly gotten more dangerous or that the last avalanche grossly skewed the statistics.
For a previous discussion, here is a spreadsheet I made of the total deaths and Sherpa deaths:
Luckily, 9 out of 12 years between 2000 and 2011 had no Sherpa deaths. This year should be a wake up call on just how dangerous climbing Mount Everest is. Although death rates have decreased dramatically in recent years, there really isn't any way to eliminate them completely (other than banning climbs completely).
It is likely that someday the same type of accident will happen again. It could be sooner or later, but will eventually happen.
Ironically, since the Sherpa have had a low rate of death compared to other climbers in recent years minus the last three, it was suggested that the amount of Sherpa on the mountain increase. It was suggested that the Nepali government require a 1:1 ratio of climbers vs. guides.
I would suggest that it's time for whitey to start carrying their own loads a little more.
One thing to ponder is that last year's highly publicized fight on Mt Everest happened because Ueli Steck and other climbers were tying to climb ahead of the Sherpa fixing the ropes, and to climb on their own, instead of using the Sherpa's fixed ropes. The so called icefall doctors were pissed. Maybe this last accident will change things in this regard.
Or maybe it's time for these swarms of alleged "climbers" to start coming in from the Chinese, Rongbuk Glacier side of the mountain, which has a less risky business glacial situation.
It may be less risky when it comes to avalanches or serac falls (and crevasses), but it is considered to be a more dangerous and riskier route. Even when taking this season in account, the northern route has a higher death rate. The Khumbu Icefall, the most dangerous part of the climb from the normal route on the Nepal side is low on the mountain and the overall climb is less technical and straight forward. The North Ridge on the Tibet side doesn't have the icefall, but it is a more technical route and moreover the technical difficulties are high on the mountain. There are also three rock steps prone to traffic jams on the north side vs. one on the south. One the northern route you are at extreme altitude for a much longer time as well. It is also colder on that side.
Climbing the northern route isn't really going to be any less risky for climber or Sherpa. The only reason the northern route has gained much popularity in recent decades is because it is usually much cheaper than the southside (though in the past few years usage is shifting more away from the north side because the Chinese have been wishy washy with cancelled permits).
The Sherpa can be paid more, have more insurance, have the best equipment, etc., but it is doubtful that the job (or climbing Mount Everest in general) will ever be safe regardless of route, insurance, equipment, etc.
It is estimated that climbers alone bring around 12 million dollars of income to the region a year. That's the average wage of over 20,000 Nepalis. It is doubtful that the government of Nepal is going to severely limit the number of climbing permits.
Personally, I don't have any ambition to climb Everest, but the trekking and surrounding peaks are great, and hopefully safer. (I have climbed 13 "smaller" peaks in the Khumbu, but they were much safer than the really big ones).
Hopefully a good solution can happen for the Sherpa, but what? Factories in the Khumbu? Humanitarian aid? Obviously Sherpa safety is extremely important and there is big problem, but no one seems to be suggesting any viable solutions.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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It's not easy to compare figures directly. It seems my list includes all the Sherpa fatalities on Everest and thus 5 more than Patterson's list.
Other lists include up to 62 fatalities but these are evidently, everyone who died working for an Everest expedition including lowland porters (sherpas vs Sherpas).
I would surmise however, that in the long run there would be more fatalities for Sherpas on the southside because of the icefall and for international climbers on the north side because of the technical difficulties up high. Sherpas would have the advantage northside because they are technically better than most of the current group of commercial climbers and getting better all the time, but primarily because they do better at higher altitudes and can go faster. I would expect many more clients to die on the north side from exhaustion and exposure than the south side.
As for alternatives, unless they can become a high paying professional (doctor, lawyer, accountant, airline pilot) some of whom have, their next best bet is to emigrate to a first world country which many also have. Of those who stay in Nepal, I have seen that even Sherpas with B.A. and M.A. qualifications end up working on expeditions because the money is so good in comparison.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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If you are worried about dying climbing in the Himalaya, don't climb there.
If other climbers are worried about dying climbing the Himalaya, thesy shouldn't climb there.
If the Sherpas are worried about dying working in their mountains, they should not do that work.
All parties are willing partners in this dance.
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