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ajc
climber
oakland,ca
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May 11, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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One thing,
calling the blocking biner a "backup" on the rap setup is not correct.
When doing a single rope rap the blocking biner should be what is supporting your weight.
Same deal if you were rapping a single doubled over rope.
I understand that this was a mistake to set it up this way. But I think its a big mistake to use the word "backup" when with this technique it is your primary connection to the anchor.
Even with a smaller rap ring the joining knot can get jammed if doing a single rope rappel.
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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May 11, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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I am sorry for everyone's loss but in 10 years with the gri gri I have never had a rappeling accident. Brian sounds like he forgot to clip in the back up (like in the petzl catalog) I have never gotten the rope stuck while pulling (and out here in red rock with all the knobs ropes get stuck all the time) and I feel it is a safer way to rappel. You can stop when needed and have instant hands off to fix problems or aid in a rescue, and then get going again without having slings and knots cinched up against your harness or leg raps to keep no auto locking devices to stay put.
The EDK or overhand is a great knot, someone needs to dig up the specs of that knot cause it was crazy when I saw that for the first time. I use to use the 8 and that is suicide at this point in the game and the overhand takes different diameter of ropes as well.
In the end it sounds like climber error. That is what gets most of us. I have gotten it (very lucky to live just walk with a hitch in my get along) and many more will fall victim to complacency and error. Get informed, try your systems, make them fail close to the ground and see how you deal with it. Never stop learning and remember you don't know everything is a great way to remain humble and have the respect for climbing that it deserves.
MY thoughts are with the family and friends
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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May 11, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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There needs to be a distinction on this thread between the flat figure 8, and the figure 8 follow thru knot. They are not the same. The figure 8 follow thru is an extremely safe knot for tying two rappel ropes together. I keep reading posts about the figure 8 being dangerous. This simply is not true, in the case of the figure 8 follow thru.
So sorry for this tragic accident.
Edit: thanks Rockermike. Too many types of (k)nots in my post.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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May 11, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Everyone keeps pointing to this knot/that knot. These guys didn't use their regular setup.
I'd say a major contributor to this accident was the "pumped up, flying high, top of the world" rush you get from a climb. There's a calm down phase that didn't seem to kick in before setting that rap - hence the overlooked knot. The endorphin rush going through people's blood is very real - a very natural phenomenon. It's probably a mistake someone would make after doing a small quantity of a drug (NOT at all implying that happened here). Sitting at a boring computer, at work, it's easy to spot the missing knot. Top of Serenity Crack, just fired an awesome route, let's fire something next, possible to miss that backup.
I really feel terrible for this fellow, his partner, family and friends. This young man will be missed dearly.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 11, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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Sincere condolences to Brian's family, loved ones and friends.
The detailed posting of what happened is much appreciated and a valuable tool for the rest of us. Thank you.
As others have stated, we all have made mistakes, but have been fortunate enough to skate by without paying the consequences.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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Sincerest condolences to family and friends. Very much appreciate the writeup, and hope that all involved find much support now.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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one should probably just call the figure 8 follow through the "Flemish Bend" to avoid confusion, and yeah, that is a bomber knot, unlike the "Figure 8 Death Knot".
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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{sigh} I'm always so sad to read of tragedies like this. Thank you for your excellent analysis, Japhy. I'm so very sorry for your loss, and my condolences to you and to Brian's friends and family.
I have used this system to rappel hundreds of pitches, including El Cap top to bottom quite a few times, and most often accompanied by substantial amounts of piggage that outweigh me considerably. The system is safe and works well with a Grigri.
Please let me share a few thoughts:
 The primary cause of this accident was not understanding the system
Do not try to "reinvent the wheel". This causes me the same sort of heartbreak as I felt when the guy died in Zion by tying a Euro Death Knot to join his rappel ropes using a figure 8 instead of an overhand. Figure 8's do not work in an EDK
Everyone climbing rocks should own a Petzl Catalogue and treat it like the Gospel it is. Pick one up at your Petzl retailer or write the company if you cannot go to your bookshelf and produce your own copy within the next three minutes
The Euro Death Knot [EDK] is an extremely safe and useful knot that you should have in your rappel repertoire, however read the Petzl Catalogue to know the correct way to tie it. There is only one correct way, and it does not have a backup. It is called a "death knot" because it LOOKS scary to the uninitiated Merrican or Hoser, however it is fully bomber
The so-called "backup knot" is NOT a backup knot - it is your primary point of attachment!
Accordingly, DO NOT UNTIE THE BACKUP KNOT!
The "backup knot" [SIC] must ALWAYS be tied, and must ALWAYS stay in the system
This shouldn't even be called a backup knot for crying out loud. Someone come up with the right name for it, please. Tie it using a butterfly knot, and not a figure eight on a bight - the butterfly is easier to tie and untie, and far less prone to clusterfukkage
During pulldown, there is nothing wrong with the carabiner travelling down towards you on the top of your pulldown rope. It will necessarily reach you before the free end of the rappel line passes through the rap anchors and will not hit you, and at any rate is small potatoes compared to the end of the rap line whipping past you
Knots can and do pull through anchors, even after they have first been tested using a [sic] "backup knot"
The photo above showing the standard non-locking carabiner around the rappel rope is WRONG - you must use a LOCKING carabiner. This carabiner gets jammed tight all to hell in the rap anchor when you weight the rappel line, and a non-locker can easily open!
Question for the pros:
Can the EDK be used to join two ropes of dissimilar diameter? My understanding is that it cannot.
Once again, very sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing it here, as you are certain to save lives.
Peter Zabrok
aka "Dr. Piton"
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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May 11, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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I'd really like to know the answer to the EDK on ropes of dissimlar size question. I always use a fisherman's and just curse the thing at the bottom trying to untie.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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PTPP: Yes, you can tie two ropes of dissimlar diameters together, although I'm not sure if that applies to the full spectrum. I know that there is no problem when I tie a 9.7 and an 8mm tagline but I'd be wary to do a 10.5 and a 5/6mm tag/pull line.
Josh
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 11, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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Black Diamond tested an EDK joining an 8.1mm with a 10.2mm, average strength for that combo 3100 lbf.
Tester's remarks:
For what it's worth, when I started climbing I always used the Double Fisherman's, but now I've fully converted to the Euro Death Knot—it's fast to tie, plenty strong, less likely to get hung up when pulling and easy to untie. And finally, no matter what rap knot I tie, I always leave long tails (like at least 12 inches).
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-what-is-the-best-rappel-knot
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vicki.ucla
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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Hi everyone,
I'm actually not a climber, but I found this forum after searching for Brian Ellis' name on the internet.
Brian Ellis was the TA for my class on "Introduction to Sustainability" at UCLA. I, along with his other students, found out about his death this morning when he didn't show up for class. At first we thought he had just missed the bus again (LA public transportation has its kinks), but we were finally informed by our head professor about Brian's accident a little later.
I don't know anything about climbing, or really the logistics about how the accident occurred, but I just want everyone to know that his students at UCLA will miss him greatly. He was a great teacher: he loved talking to us about different ways we could be more sustainable...the environment...organic food, etc. Every time he would talk about hiking and climbing,he would get so excited-- he showed us all of these great shots he took hiking through Yosemite and kept encouraging us to go and see nature. Just last week, our class went with him to McGrath's Family Farms to look at how organic food is grown, etc. We had a great time, and the trip wouldn't have been possible if Brian hadn't gone out of his way to arrange it for us.
I just want to share with all of you, the blog that he created for his students (He had this awesome idea for all of us (his students) to blog about our goals, the changes we were making in our lives, etc. and share them with each other online). It is obviously unfinished due to his sudden passing, but I think it contains a lot of great info and insight into his ideas about sustainability.
The url is http://globalenvironmentcluster.blogspot.com/
Again,
All of our hearts go out to Japhy Dhungana, Brian's family and loved ones-- we all will really really REALLY will miss this awesome and engaging teacher that took such a deep interest in each one of us.
Meanwhile, we'll continue to live by the statement Brian put on his blog, "[We're] not sustainable enough yet"...and make sure we strive to reach our goals to make this world just a little better, just a little more sustainable.
Thank you Brian...R.I.P.
Vicki & the the class of "Introduction to Sustainability"
-Japhy: Please let me know if you have any way of reaching Brian's family. The class would like to send some messages to them, but we don't know how to do so or if the family would be receptive to getting letters at this time. If you know anything about where we could possible mail, or email something to them, please contact me at victoria.nee@gmail.com . We'd really appreciate it.
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altieboo
Boulder climber
Livermore, Ca
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May 11, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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My deepest condolences to you and your fellow students loss Vicki.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 11, 2010 - 05:56pm PT
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Thanks, Vicki, for your very nice note.
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sjellison
Mountain climber
santa clara, ca
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May 11, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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I was at the base of superslide with Zeth Kinnet when the accident took place. It has been bothering me a lot ever since (specifically what went wrong), but after reading your explanation, Japhy I have felt much better about getting back on the stone this weekend. Your post answered many of the questions that have been running through my head. I wish you the best during this difficult time.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 12, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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Vicki, thanks for posting.
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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May 12, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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Thank you for taking the time to post Vicki. Best wishes to the friends and family of Brian.
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vicki.ucla
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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Thank you to those that sent me Brian's family's addresses...I'll make sure they get our letters and messages as soon as possible.
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