What is "Mind?"

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MH2

climber
Dec 16, 2011 - 12:20am PT



Rodolfo Llinás is a neuroscientist who has a long history of trying to understand the brain, from the single neuron up to questions about consciousness.

He seems to think that oysters have subjectivity (and fish).

Here are excerpts from his book, The I of the Vortex

I think he explains in the second example what del cross was trying to tell me.

And he is quite enthusiastic about qualia.



It is the difference in the electrical properties and connectivity of neurons that allows networks to internalize the external world images into our brain and to transform such images into motor behavior. Such networks also generate the rapidly moving electrical storms that represent, internally, the fast and ever-changing external reality. These dissipative electrical events of the brain, rich enough to represent all that we can observe or imagine, constitute the mind. These electrical events in our networks constitute "us."

Chapter 4, p. 70


It is one thing for the nervous system to know something (the proper set of steps required for implementing digestion, for example), and quite another for you to know something. The issue of subjectivity is a hotly debated topic in the fields of philosophy and the cognitive sciences. But is subjectivity necessary at all? Why is it not just enough to see and react, as a robot might do? What advantage is conferred on the organism by actually experiencing something over just doing it?

For myself, I suspect that subjectivity is what the nervous system is all about, even at the most primitive levels of evolution. As an obvious corollary to that suspicion, I also suspect that consciousness as the substrate for subjectivity does not exist outside the realm of the nervous system or its nonbiological equivalent, if there is any.

Chapter 6, pp 112-113


...self is the invention of an intrinsic CNS semantic. It exists inside the closed system of the CNS as an attractor, a vortex without true existence other than as the common impetus of otherwise unrelated parts. It is an organizer of extrinsically and intrinsically derived percepts: the loom that weaves the relation of the organism to its internal representation of the external world.

chapter 6, p. 128


In actuality, however, the above philosophical discussions concerning the extent to which our perception of reality and "actual" reality overlap or match are truly of little importance. All that is required is that the predictive properties of the computational states generated by the brain meet the requirements for successful interactions with the external world.

chapter 6, p. 129


Those who reject the reduction of qualia to the electrical activity and geometry of neuronal circuits perhaps do so because they lack any understanding of functional geometries; qualia are not some mysterious events that, "residing between," manage miraculously to change the nature of electrical activity into "feeling." After all, we must remember that, as stated above, qualia are soluble in local anesthetics. Here the ghost in the machine is responsive to surgery or even a whack on the head. Since when are transcendent properties so fragile and close to the biological process? Parsimony and serious science clearly indicate that "the bridge," "the mysterious transformation" of electrochemical events into sensations is an empty set. It does not exist: neuronal activity and sensation are one and the same event.

chapter 10, p. 218


We may, and I think we must come to understand qualia as a sort of master organ, one that allows for the individual senses to operate or co-mingle in an ensemble fashion. Qualia make simplifying, momentary judgements about this ensemble activity, allowing these judgements to be re-entered into the system for the predictive needs of the organism (self). Qualia represent judgements or assessments at the circuit level of the information carried by sensory pathways, or sensations. And these sensations, the integration product of the activation of internal sensory fixed action patterns, represent the ultimate predictive vectors that recycle/re-enter into the internal landscape of the self. They are the "ghost" in the machine and represent the critically important space between input and output, for they are neither, yet are a product of one and the drive for the other. And all the while they are simplified constructs on the part of the intrinsic properties of the neuronal circuits of our brains.

chapter 10, pp 221-22



Llinás says that thalamocortical oscillations are his main candidate for the basis of consciousness.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Thalamocortical_oscillations

"It has been proposed that synchronization in the gamma frequency range [30 to 80 Hz] is related to cognitive processing and important for temporal binding of sensory stimuli."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2011 - 02:05am PT
chapter 6, p. 129


Those who reject the reduction of qualia to the electrical activity and geometry of neuronal circuits perhaps do so because they lack any understanding of functional geometries; qualia are not some mysterious events that, "residing between," manage miraculously to change the nature of electrical activity into "feeling." After all, we must remember that, as stated above, qualia are soluble in local anesthetics. Here the ghost in the machine is responsive to surgery or even a whack on the head. Since when are transcendent properties so fragile and close to the biological process? Parsimony and serious science clearly indicate that "the bridge," "the mysterious transformation" of electrochemical events into sensations is an empty set. It does not exist: neuronal activity and sensation are one and the same event.
---


Not only is this a poor writing sample, the logic is absurd. He's totally missed the qualitative importance by standing solely on the quantitative. Once again, if I lack the wherewithal to handle the material, I can always say, "It does not exist." Por sap has written himself right out of his own script - though only in his head. But it's amazing how often this happens to seemingly keen and well-meaning people.

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 16, 2011 - 06:34am PT
Here's a breakthrough in human ethical consciousness.

The National Institutes of Health on Thursday suspended all new grants for biomedical and behavioral research on chimpanzees and accepted the first uniform criteria for assessing the necessity of such research. Those guidelines require that the research be necessary for human health, and that there be no other way to accomplish it.

In making the announcement, Dr. Francis S. Collins, the director of the N.I.H., said that chimps, as the closest human relatives, deserve “special consideration and respect” and that the agency was accepting the recommendations released earlier in the day by an expert committee of the Institute of Medicine, which concluded that most research on chimpanzees was unnecessary.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/science/chimps-in-medical-research.html?hpw
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 17, 2011 - 12:54am PT
Here's a breakthrough in human ethical consciousness.


yes



and nicely illustrates that we have a very long way to go...




my ex-wife (an animal lover and still a good friend) is director of research compliance at Stanford; and thus responsible for overseeing the protocol legalities for the treatment of human and animal research subjects

my son has worked there from time to time and has a very hard time with it; since he grew up knowing that mice are people...

(i didn't teach him that

i just taught him to follow tracks and observe behavior...)
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 28, 2011 - 08:05am PT
Even this level of reductionism provokes the philosophical issue of what is sentience?



Japan scientists hope slime holds intelligence key


A brainless, primeval organism able to navigate a maze might help Japanese scientists devise the ideal transport network design. Not bad for a mono-cellular being that lives on rotting leaves.

Amoeboid yellow slime mold has been on Earth for thousands of years, living a distinctly un-hi-tech life, but, say scientists, it could provide the key to designing bio-computers capable of solving complex problems.

Toshiyuki Nakagaki, a professor at Future University Hakodate says the organism, which he cultivates in petri dishes, "organises" its cells to create the most direct root through a maze to a source of food.

He says the cells appear to have a kind of information-processing ability that allows them to "optimise" the route along which the mold grows to reach food while avoiding stresses -- like light -- that may damage them.

"Humans are not the only living things with information-processing abilities," said Nakagaki in his laboratory in Hakodate on Japan's northernmost island of Hokkaido.
"Simple creatures can solve certain kinds of difficult puzzles," Nakagaki said. "If you want to spotlight the essence of life or intelligence, it's easier to use these simple creatures."

And it doesn't get much simpler than slime mold, an organism that inhabits decaying leaves and logs and eats bacteria.

Physarum polycephalum, or grape-cluster slime, grows large enough to be seen without a microscope and has the appearance of mayonnaise.

"Slime molds that have survived for hundreds of millions of years can flexibly adjust themselves to a change of the environment," he said. "They can even create networks that are resistant to unexpected stimulus."

Research has shown slime molds become inactive when subjected to stress such as temperature or humidity changes. They even appear to "remember" the stresses and protectively become inactive when they might expect to experience them.

Tero and his research team have successfully had slime molds form the pattern of a railway system quite similar to the railroad networks of the Kanto region centering Tokyo -- which were designed by hard-thinking people.

He hopes these slime mold networks will be used in future designs of new transport systems or electric transmission lines that need to incorporate detours to get around power outages.

Masashi Aono, a researcher at Riken, a natural science research institute based in Saitama, says his project aims to examine the mechanism of the human brain and eventually duplicate it with slime molds.

"I'm convinced that studying the information-processing capabilities of lower organisms may lead to an understanding of the human brain system," Aono said. "That's my motivation and ambition as a researcher."

Full article at:

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-scientists-hope-slime-holds-intelligence-key-033359816.html
MH2

climber
Dec 28, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
Thanks, Jan. I remember hearing a year ago about the Japanese transit system slime mold map. But remember that slime molds are a loooooooooong way from simple, as they are independently-living and self-reproducing organisms that have had millions of years of selective pressure fine-tuning them to an environment that is pretty foreign to us, at the microscopic scale and in the chemotactic world of the myxomycetes. They are social amoebae. They aren't as simple as viruses.

I had no idea there were videos, let alone so many of them, of slime molds. The one of the Canadian Highway system is hilarious. John Bonner of Princeton has a good old-school offering, plus, "I've been studying slime molds for 70 years and there is still much to learn."



To add to Tom Cochrane post 730 and John Gill post 1377:

"As a little boy, I showed an abnormal aptitude for mathematics, which I completely lost in my singularly talentless youth. This gift played a horrible part in tussles with quinsy or scarlet fever, when I felt enormous spheres and huge numbers swell relentlessly in my aching brain...

One day, after a long illness, as I lay in bed still very weak, I found myself basking in an unusual euphoria of lightness and repose. I knew my mother had gone to buy me the daily present that made these convalescences so delightful. What it would be this time I could not guess, but through the crystal of my strangely translucent state I vividly visualized her driving away down Morskaya Street toward Nevski Avenue. I distinguished the light sleigh drawn by a chestnut courser. I heard his snorting breath, the rhythmic clacking of his scrotum, and the lumps of frozen earth and snow thudding against the front of the sleigh. Before my eyes and before those of my mother loomed the hind part of the coachman, in his heavily padded blue robe, and the leather-encased watch (twenty minutes past two) strapped to the back of his belt, from under which curved the pumpkin-like folds of his huge stuffed rump. I saw my mother's seal furs and, as the icy speed increased, the muff she raised to her face - that graceful, winter-ride gesture of a St. Petersburg lady. Two corners of the voluminous spread of bearskin that covered her up to the waist were attached by loops to the two side knobs of the low back of her seat. And behind her, holding on to these knobs, a footman in cockaded hat stood on his narrow support above the rear extremities of the runners.

Still watching the sleigh, I saw it stop at Treumann's (writing implements, bronze baubles, playing cards). Presently, my mother came out of this shop followed by the footman. He carried her purchase, which looked to me like a pencil. I was astonished that she did not carry so small an object herself, and this disagreeable question of dimensions caused a faint renewal, fortunately very brief, of the 'mind dilation effect' which I hoped had gone with the fever. As she was being tucked up again in the sleigh, I watched the vapor exhaled by all, horse included. I watched, too, the familiar pouting movement she made to distend the network of her close-fitting veil drawn too tight over her face, and as I write this, the touch of reticulated tenderness that my lips used to feel when I kissed her veiled cheek comes back to me, flies back to me with a shout of joy out of the snow-blue, blue windowed (the curtains are not yet drawn) past.

A few minutes later, she entered my room. In her arms she held a big parcel. It had been, in my vision, greatly reduced in size, perhaps because I subliminally corrected what logic warned me might still be the dreaded remnants of delirium's dilating world. Now the object proved to be a giant polygonal Faber pencil, four feet long and correspondingly thick. It had been hanging as a showpiece in the shop's window, and she presumed I had coveted it, as I coveted all things that were not quite purchasable."


Vladimir Nabokov
Speak, Memory
An Autobiography Revisited
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Dec 28, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/12/26/144152193/singing-therapy-helps-stroke-patients-speak-again

Certain types of strokes can destroy the speech center in the left side of the brain, leaving the person unable to talk. If the right side of the brain is okay, then the ability to sing is retained. With practice and training they are able to communicate with singing and gradually change the singing till it is more and more like regular speech. The area of the brain that controls singing develops more and more till it does most of what the speech center used to do.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Dec 28, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
Yeah, Darwin's idea hit the streets about 100 years earlier than it would have without him, I wager.

OK. Interesting Mind story:

Went in this morning for a scope job on my knee. I obtained a really sweet impact fracture on the top of my tibia when I landed with the leg stiff. The Femur just pounded the tibia. So they went inside the knee beyond all of the cartilage and stuff. I have no idea what they did, although I do have a CD of the surgery to look at.

Before surgery they gave me that Verced/Valium cocktail, but it just kind of made me feel a little weird. So I am up on the table and the anesthetist asks me how I am feeling, and I say pretty normal.

He pulls out this vial and a syringe and says, "Here is the Celebrity Dose." Man, that needle hit the IV and five seconds later I woke up in recovery.

It is pretty well known that you don't dream under a general anesthetic, and from my two experiences, I can give my own empirical opinion that it is quite true. You close your eyes and then you wake up wondering where the hell you are.

So the anesthetic shut down what I would call any higher order thought process in the brain. Flipped the mind light switch to the off position. I didn't fake out God and see the pearly gates early or anything like that, although I was totally disoriented for a few minutes after waking up. I had to look around and put the picture back together that I was in recovery. Took a little while longer to remember WHY I was in recovery.

The Verced causes retrograde amnesia, I believe. That is why they use it on colonoscopy's. You scream like hell but hopefully don't remember it. Riley will know.

I don't have a clue why it bothers people that the mind itself is based on physical material. Not knowing how it fully works hardly seems an excuse to toss out a material basis for mind.

So I still think it is a bunch of meat, although very cool meat that does things that are way beyond what we can understand. Hell. They just dosed me with chemicals and shut the sucker down. You can do the same thing with a bullet, although that one is permanent.

The "Who we are" part of the mind is fascinating to contemplate, but I still can't understand some of the ideas posited. It seems like a lot of work to try to disavow that the mind is not located in a material position, at least while we are alive, for those of you who believe in afterlife.

Gotta go. Demerol is groooovy. Don't ask any questions. I will tell all.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 30, 2011 - 08:21am PT
Another reminder of how little we know about the brain/mind. I was just reading about the great physicist Richard Feynman and was interested to learn that he was unable to speak, not even a single word, until after his third birthday. Also he was a partial synesthete. He saw numbers in color in certain mathematical formulations, but not in all. This happened even when he was looking at equations in front of him that were only in black and white.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 30, 2011 - 09:18am PT
Another clue building on Dingus' clues: "Being the prophet and guru of the untangible gap, the god of gaps incarnate".
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2011 - 10:53am PT
Oh no, DMT. You said it out loud. Now you are in deep doo doo.
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2011 - 11:51am PT
First of all there's no veil, never ever was there one.

Everything is out in the open for all to see.

One must just actually see.

Modern science has done that very nicely with the gross material elements.

By the way the mind IS material although a subtle form.

It is the soul "the actual life force" which modern medical science and modern science has yet to verify due to their defective methods.



MH2

climber
Jan 12, 2012 - 02:13am PT
Largo asked, "What are feelings?"

R. Llinás asked, "...is subjectivity necessary at all? Why is it not just enough to see and react, as a robot might do? What advantage is conferred on the organism by actually experiencing something over just doing it?"


Let me try to answer an easier question, first. If you, or a robot, needs to reach out and pick up an object, is it enough to see the object, put your arm out, close your fingers and lift? Not really. In addition to information from your eyes, it's important to get feedback from your fingers and arm about the fragility and heft of the object. Otherwise you might break the object or drop it when you try to lift. A reasonable guess may be stored in memory from previous encounters with such an object, helpful if speed is important.

Feelings may be useful to social animals who interact with others of their kind. How do you know what effect your actions have on others? One guide may be the way you feel before, during, and after an encounter. Feelings may be associated in memory with previous social interactions and thereby channel future actions along profitable lines. Feelings may be analogous to the kinesthetic feedback important to directing movement, but feelings help to refine social instead of physical manipulations.



However, in humans it isn't easy to reconcile the cacophony of feeling with any simple explanation. I hazard a guess that natural selection found hit-or-miss a successful bit of biology, but, being blind, did not see all the consequences.


---------------------------------------------------------


The storm passed quickly. The rain, which had been a mass of violently descending water wherein the trees writhed and rolled, was reduced all at once to oblique lines of silent gold breaking into short and long dashes against a background of of subsiding vegetable agitation.


A moment later my first poem began. What touched it off? I think I know. Without any wind blowing, the sheer weight of a raindrop, shining in parasitic luxury on a cordate leaf caused its tip to dip, and what looked like a globule of quicksilver performed a sudden glissando down the center vein, and then, having shed its bright load, the relieved leaf unbent. Tip, leaf, dip, relief - the instant it all took to happen seemed to me not so much a fraction of time as a fissure in it, a missed heartbeat, which was refunded at once by a patter of rhymes: I say "patter" intentionally, for when a gust of wind did come, the trees would briskly start to drip all together in as crude an imitation of the recent downpour as the stanza I was already muttering resembled the shock of wonder I had experienced when for a moment heart and leaf had been one.


...But I did discover, at least, that a person hoping to become a poet must have the capacity of thinking of several things at a time. In the course of the languid rambles that accompanied the making of my first poem, I ran into the village schoolmaster, an ardent Socialist, a good man, intensely devoted to my father (I welcome this image again), always with a tight posy of wild flowers, always smiling, always perspiring. While politely discussing with him my father's sudden journey to town, I registered simultaneously and with equal clarity not only his wilting flowers, his flowing tie and the blackheads on the fleshy volutes of his nostrils, but also the dull little voice of a cuckoo coming from afar, and the flash of a Queen of Spain settling on the road, and the remembered impression of the pictures (enlarged agricultural pests and bearded Russian writers) in the well-aerated classrooms of the village school which I had once or twice visited; and - to continue a tabulation that hardly does justice to the ethereal simplicity of the whole process - the throb of some utterly irrelevant recollection (a pedometer I had lost) was released from a neighboring brain cell, and the savor of the grass stalk I was chewing mingled with the cuckoo's noise and the fritillary's takeoff, and all the while I was richly, serenely aware of my manifold awareness.



Vladimir Nabokov
Speak Memory, chapter 11 parts 1 and 2

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 17, 2012 - 10:58am PT
http://news.yahoo.com/uk-scientists-lost-darwin-fossils-060025391.html

LONDON (AP) — British scientists have found scores of fossils the great evolutionary theorist Charles Darwin and his peers collected but that had been lost for more than 150 years.

Dr. Howard Falcon-Lang, a paleontologist at Royal Holloway, University of London, said Tuesday that he stumbled upon the glass slides containing the fossils in an old wooden cabinet that had been shoved in a "gloomy corner" of the massive, drafty British Geological Survey.

Using a flashlight to peer into the drawers and hold up a slide, Falcon-Lang saw one of the first specimens he had picked up was labeled 'C. Darwin Esq."

"It took me a while just to convince myself that it was Darwin's signature on the slide," the paleontologist said, adding he soon realized it was a "quite important and overlooked" specimen.

He described the feeling of seeing that famous signature as "a heart in your mouth situation," saying he wondering "Goodness, what have I discovered!"

Falcon-Lang's find was a collection of 314 slides of specimens collected by Darwin and other members of his inner circle, including John Hooker — a botanist and dear friend of Darwin — and the Rev. John Henslow, Darwin's mentor at Cambridge, whose daughter later married Hooker.

The first slide pulled out of the dusty corner at the British Geological Survey turned out to be one of the specimens collected by Darwin during his famous expedition on the HMS Beagle, which changed the young Cambridge graduate's career and laid the foundation for his subsequent work on evolution.

Falcon-Lang said the unearthed fossils — lost for 165 years — show there is more to learn from a period of history scientists thought they knew well.

"To find a treasure trove of lost Darwin specimens from the Beagle voyage is just extraordinary," Falcon-Lang added. "We can see there's more to learn. There are a lot of very, very significant fossils in there that we didn't know existed."

He said one of the most "bizarre" slides came from Hooker's collection — a specimen of prototaxites, a 400 million-year-old tree-sized fungus.

Hooker had assembled the collection of slides while briefly working for the British Geological Survey in 1846, according to Royal Holloway, University of London.

The slides — "stunning works of art," according to Falcon-Lang — contain bits of fossil wood and plants ground into thin sheets and affixed to glass in order to be studied under microscopes. Some of the slides are half a foot long (15 centimeters), "great big chunks of glass," Falcon-Lang said.

"How these things got overlooked for so long is a bit of a mystery itself," he mused, speculating that perhaps it was because Darwin was not widely known in 1846 so the collection might not have been given "the proper curatorial care."

Royal Holloway, University of London said the fossils were 'lost' because Hooker failed to number them in the formal "specimen register" before setting out on an expedition to the Himalayas. In 1851, the "unregistered" fossils were moved to the Museum of Practical Geology in Piccadilly before being transferred to the South Kensington's Geological Museum in 1935 and then to the British Geological Survey's headquarters near Nottingham 50 years later, the university said.

The discovery was made in April, but it has taken "a long time" to figure out the provenance of the slides and photograph all of them, Falcon-Lang said. The slides have now been photographed and will be made available to the public through a new online museum exhibit opening Tuesday.

Falcon-Lang expects great scientific papers to emerge from the discovery.

"There are some real gems in this collection that are going to contribute to ongoing science."

Dr. John Ludden, executive director of the Geological Survey, called the find a "remarkable" discovery.

"It really makes one wonder what else might be hiding in our collections," he said.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jan 20, 2012 - 10:04am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Found it to be credible
MH2

climber
Jan 20, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
...as if the fullness of the soul might not sometimes overflow in the emptiest of metaphors, since no one, ever, can give the exact measurements of his needs, nor of his conceptions, nor of his suffering, and the human word is like a cracked caldron upon which we beat out melodies fit for making bears dance when we are trying to move the stars to pity.


from Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 31, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
A couple of thoughts to stir the pot.


One old,

An Essay concerning Human Understanding

John Locke 1690

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/locke/locke1/contents1.html


7. Occasion of this essay. This was that which gave the first rise to this Essay concerning the understanding. For I thought that the first step towards satisfying several inquiries the mind of man was very apt to run into, was, to take a survey of our own understandings, examine our own powers, and see to what things they were adapted. Till that was done I suspected we began at the wrong end, and in vain sought for satisfaction in a quiet and sure possession of truths that most concerned us, whilst we let loose our thoughts into the vast ocean of Being; as if all that boundless extent were the natural and undoubted possession of our understandings, wherein there was nothing exempt from its decisions, or that escaped its comprehension. Thus men, extending their inquiries beyond their capacities, and letting their thoughts wander into those depths where they can find no sure footing, it is no wonder that they raise questions and multiply disputes, which, never coming to any clear resolution, are proper only to continue and increase their doubts, and to confirm them at last in perfect scepticism. Whereas, were the capacities of our understandings well considered, the extent of our knowledge once discovered, and the horizon found which sets the bounds between the enlightened and dark parts of things; between what is and what is not comprehensible by us, men would perhaps with less scruple acquiesce in the avowed ignorance of the one, and employ their thoughts and discourse with more advantage and satisfaction in the other.


One new,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9051909/Mind-reading-device-could-become-reality.html
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Feb 2, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
Here's an interesting article on artificial intelligence.

http://berglas.org/Articles/AIKillGrandchildren/AIKillGrandchildren.html

When the singularity is reached will computers become conscious at some point?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 20, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
here's a teaser for Largo:
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/biot.2006.1.4.352
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 21, 2012 - 08:37am PT
Ed,

A parallel to primary nature (our nature as formed from within) and secondary nature (our nature as in part formed by the challenges brought to us by the external environment and our culture)? The "challenges" working on both our body - epigenetics - and our mind.
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