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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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Sorry Paul, but just about every evolutionary biologist would say that you do.
Well if that's the case then those "evolutionary biologists" are hopelessly naive.
It is fascinating that the scientific mind so often declaring itself unbiased and true and the rightful window to reality can close up like a steel trap without even realizing it.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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but just about every evolutionary biologist would say that YOU do.
Then they are insane and believe in fairy tales ......
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 27, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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. . . but nevertheless is as eternal as the universe is and again transcendent, integral and inevitable?
Eloquently stated, for both soul and consciousness perhaps. Very spiritual. As JL might say, an independent force or field. I like the notion of a universal field, for fields are strange features of the universe, invisible for the most part, but consequential. I like to play with the mathematical versions in the complex plane. In a sense, magical.
;>)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 27, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
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How is it that consciousness can't, in the same manner light is, be an inevitable product of certain processes of the release of energy and in that sense be as light is, a transcendent and universal quality/thing, photons in the case of light, that is simply not understood, but nevertheless is as eternal as the universe is and again transcendent, integral and inevitable? Well, let' see, for one thing, we have absolutely no reason to believe it existed (at least on our planet) before life existed. And we have a decent model of how it evolved.
I don't agree, DMT. Consciousness is not like light. There is no reason to believe that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. It is an evolved property.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 27, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
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There is no reason to believe that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. It is an evolved property
I agree. It's just that Paul has such a delightful way of expressing his opinions.
Magic fields . . .
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
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Consciousness IS a fundamental property of the universe ......
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 27, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
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I don't think we are speaking past each other. I'm saying that consciousness is not like light. It is more like the head of a hammerhead shark. It is an evolved property that may not have existed if the starting conditions were different.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
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Consciousness is actually a lot like light.
This is why people say that knowledge has been illuminated.
Without light ultimately, there is NO knowledge nor consciousness .....
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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Illumination is eternal ......
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 27, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
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Light is a fundamental property of our universe. If it is a result of evolution then that would suggest that our universe evolved from other universes (which it might have). This is a fundamentally different thing than something that evolved biologically on this planet.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 27, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
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Just got home and was looking up something in The Life of The Cosmos, by Lee Smolin. Sheesh, I'm just going to read you the first half of the first paragraph of Chapter 1.
Science is, above everything else, a search for an understanding of our relationship with the rest of the universe. We may begin it with the simplest, most basic facts about ourselves. Each of us is a living thing. As such, the most obvious and fundamental medium to our connection to the universe is light. For we, living beings, live in a universe of light. We all see; even the simplest fungus or protozoa has receptors that respond to the presence of light...
I love rediscovering this sh#t.
This book really is about the possibility of evolving universes and that ours has the (26 or something) fundamental properties that it has because of that evolution.
By the way, to answer your last question DMT, I suppose the "precipitation" of the elementary particles (including photons) from the primordial plasma could be thought of as an evolution of sorts, but once it happened, them's the properties. That's what we call "fundamental".
The earth, for a few billion years had nothing but single-celled organisms. I and most scientists would contend that consciousness (including awareness) did not exist during this time. Consciousness requires a big and deep starting list of conditions.
What DID exist early on in the evolution of life on earth, as Smolin suggests, is the ability to respond to light. I can easily imagine a continuum between responding to light and human consciousness.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 27, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
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These are interesting conversations and all, and they are fueled by what we are learning from our readings and studies, but let’s not overlook life . . . I mean living it. We should not take these things so seriously or concretely that we sort of miss our lives.
I guess I’ve been semi-retired now for 6-7 years now from an attitude I carried around in me. I was doing what I was doing by experiencing a sense of style. All I can say is that it’s been dancing in a semi-real dream. Work, marriage, being whatever and whoever I thought I was, was like a role I was playing—and learning.
Recently I’ve really retired. No one has calls on me anymore that I need to heed, and that includes my conscience. I see that the dancing is pure improvisation; it always has been.
I get that these topics are intricate, challenging, and fun, but don’t forget to surf the experience we call life. No matter what things are or are not, how they work or won’t, these pale to the feeling of life. IMO, anyway.
Cheers. Be well.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 27, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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Hey, MikeL, good vibes your way. I like playing on this thread like I like playing a card game (love Hearts, in particular). I can totally separate that from, say, how I experience a sunset or a humiliating day out at the rocks.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 27, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
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No matter what things are or are not, how they work or won’t, these pale to the feeling of life
Apples versus apple trees.
Eating apples, looking for new apple varieties, where are the apples of yesteryear?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 27, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
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How is it that consciousness can't, in the same manner light is, be an inevitable product of certain processes of the release of energy and in that sense be as light is, a transcendent and universal quality/thing, photons in the case of light, that is simply not understood, but nevertheless is as eternal as the universe is and again transcendent, integral and inevitable?
light is a consequence of well known physical processes that can conjure up light of any type you want.. to say that light is "simply not understood" is pure, unadulterated rubbish.
It is an interesting question whether or not light is "integral and inevitable," in our universe it happens to be, and in many types of universes similar to ours it also probably is, but that is not, necessarily, the way all universes are or could be.
Even the astonishing transparency of our universe is a recent occurrence, when before "the recombination," probably should be "combination" as prior to that epoch things were not at all transparent, light was in equilibrium with the protons and electrons, and before that, all the other charged particles in a vast zoo.
And finally, the particular universe that we live in is not "eternal."
So you can have your poetry, it serves badly as any explanation, and fails to be an appropriate analogy to "mind," unless you wish that analogy to be that the same sort of silly thinking about light is an appropriate way to approach mind.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
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Light is always eternal.
Has nothing to do with the Universe or any material means.
Everyone knows they can see in the dark without any material means with the right consciousness ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
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light is a consequence of well known physical processes that can conjure up light of any type you want.. to say that light is "simply not understood" is pure, unadulterated rubbish.
Are you kidding? Maybe Scientists just can't read.
I didn't say light wasn't understood. The only "un-adulterated rubbish here comes form you.
What isn't understood is consciousness not light. Good grief, man read the post.
The poetry stands and it does a hell of better job of reconciliation to being than science can ever do.
And finally, the particular universe that we live in is not "eternal."
You can't know this! If you know this go win the Nobel Prize. Nobody can Know whether the
universe is eternal or not. Show us the science.
The only silly thinking here is yours.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 27, 2017 - 10:19pm PT
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It is an interesting question whether or not light is "integral and inevitable," in our universe it happens to be, and in many types of universes similar to ours it also probably is, but that is not, necessarily, the way all universes are or could be.
Obliviously it's integral. "Inevitable", well you scientist's have one of two rtes, as I see it. One, it is inevitable. Two, it came by chance, or luck.
Shouldn't The same dionostic be taken for consciousness
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2017 - 10:31pm PT
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Obliviously it's integral. "Inevitable", well you scientist's have one of two rtes, as I see it. One, it is inevitable. Two, it came by chance, or luck.
In a limitless universe in which there is an ordered limitation of what can and what cannot occur based on physical "laws" only certain things will occur, and given the nature of limitlessness those certain things must eventually occur: the nature of chance being constrained in such a structure.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 27, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
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Ok. But you left out luck. The happily implied attribution to an otherwise hapless universe provided by the most intelligent men/women
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