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WBraun
climber
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Rawl, Powers, American, Nord-Lock, etc.
Not one of them could even move without consciousness first.
Thus DMT still splashes in the shallow end having yet to learn how to even swim yet .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
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Arguments that lead in principle down to emptiness, do so by a shift of categories:
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Categories are not primary but derived from the source subject. In this case the source subject is reality. Strictly speaking a category is:
cat·e·go·ry (kăt′ĭ-gôr′ē)
n. pl. cat·e·go·ries
1. A specifically defined division in a system of classification; a class.
2. A general class of ideas, terms, or things that mark divisions or coordinations within a conceptual scheme.
Used as defined above, it would seem that the primary consideration is the system of classification itself, NOT the reality that is being classified.
It's sort of like considering a system of classification as a stand-alone, subject-independent thing, but I am not talking about quantifications, rather WHAT is being quantified.
Nor am I talking about an "argument," but rather what is actually "there," or in this case, what empirical evidence suggest is NOT there - namely an imagined kind of cinderblock (a particle with a fixed stuff nature) foundation upon which reality is built.
I can see why some people struggle with the idea of emptiness, but I think most are objecting to what we are NOT saying - that emptiness is more real than stuff or forms. Not at all. None of this or that is real in the way we consider the moon as "real," as a tangible external object out there and observer-independent. Not emptiness nor yet the forms have those qualities.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Righty-tighty lefty-loosey! (most the time)
Not only do you need a bolt but you have to use it! So clip in brothers!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Largo and MikeL are pretty good self-parodists, too. They have learned something from the masters of the esoteric traditions.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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. . . what empirical evidence suggest is NOT there - namely an imagined kind of cinderblock (a particle with a fixed stuff nature) foundation upon which reality is built (JL)
When you make your next voyage down below the Planck Scale please send up a message, perhaps by tachyons. Thanks.
You say you’re learning about the world. I suggest you’re learning about appearances (MikeL)
OK, so to penetrate more deeply into reality a good strategy might be to study how these appearances (objects) relate to one another and how this information might shed light on these things that exhibit appearances.
Or we could all retire to the ashram and zen-sit.
Or we could retire to the Philosophy Department's faculty lounge and pick each others' brains.
Or we could . . .??????
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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^^^^^^^^^^
Try to relax. There’s nothing that needs doing. A preoccupation with doing, solving problems, achievement, and usefulness have overshadowed the “being” part of living. It’s a bias of the times that intelligence, a demand for more knowledge and information, and “will” appear to be paramount values to be honored over all other values. I suggest to you that there are no paramount values. They are all the same.
Being is not about being anything. It’s certainly not about being smart or clever.
. . . a good strategy might be to study how these appearances (objects) relate to one another and how this information might shed light on these things that exhibit appearances.
Why? What are you trying to do, where are you trying to go, and for what reason? If you were to know these things, would it help you to live a better life, a more fulfilling life, a more engaged life, a happier life? I’d say that if you saw appearances everywhere you looked, you might simply relax and just be who and what you cannot help but be.
You seems to see “the result” of the views that I present as some sort of mindless, zombie-like existence I suppose. I can’t convince you just how narrow and misguided that view might be in all the things and ways that I’ve expressed myself here. It’s really just the opposite in my view. I see the dharmakaya as an unlimited potential for anything to show up. You see things. I see displays. You take things seriously and concretely. I’m in wonder at what shows up.
I guess I’m just lucky.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Put it together: appearances and consciousness. One shows up with the other, . . . all . . . the . . . time.
That's why I often use my Ngarlu instead of my consciousness.
Oxygen and consciousness. One shows up with the other all the time.
If you want you can talk about the appearance of love, the appearance of the taste of sugar, or the appearance of a parabola. I would rather toss out the clutter and talk about love, sweet, and parabolas.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2016 - 09:14am PT
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My sense of it John is that we are looping back into scientism - meaning basically two things: "Philosophy" is actually the attempt to do science without instruments or schemas (numbers, etc.), and that the fundamental nature of reality is so fractured that insights from one mode of inquiry have no carry over to other modes, that science cannot tell us about subjectivity and that subjective adventures are not portals into objectivity. Or worse, the objective is the ONLY avenue of true inquiry into the subjective. Granted, this is an extreme view, rendering an extreme POV - like the belief that any thing is independent of any other thing or phenomenon.
Studying the relations between the apparent pieces and phenomenon of reality, as you suggested, is a wise choice IMO because as leading scientists will tell you, as well as folks from the subjective camp, that all that there is. There is no immutable or non-contingent stuff that "does" stuff or has qualities and phenomenon. We can and do use this model for convenience and it worlds wonderfully. That's the rub. I use my "self" to live in the world but it is a provisional phenomenon with no inherent nature of its own.
The bridge between the many and the one, the narrow and the wide, the stuff and the emptiness is mind. That fact that we cannot tease out mind and see it as a stand alone thing means it is part of an undivisible whole. It is in that sense that people say, "It's all mind." We could just as well say, "It is all sky." It's all just one big mo-fo, and IME, there is no thing or phenomenon that is mutually exclusive of any thing else.
Still a little bewildered by the whole Trump affair...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I use my "self" to live in the world but it is a provisional phenomenon with no inherent nature of its own.
Couldn't your self's inherent nature be that it is a provisional phenomenon?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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MH2: Couldn’t your self's inherent nature be that it is a provisional phenomenon?
I think you are still saying that it’s a thing. I’d say that you’re cleverly missing the point, but I suspect you’re just being perverse.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Still a little bewildered by the whole Trump affair...
Stay strong, John. At least you're not boo-hooing and threatening to run off to Canada. I can't believe climbers can be such wimps.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I think you are still saying that it’s a thing. I’d say that you’re cleverly missing the point, but I suspect you’re just being perverse.
It's much simpler than that.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 10, 2016 - 05:30am PT
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A selection from "The Science of The First Person" by Douglas Harding:
It is very possible -indeed necessary -to have doubts about what I see there. (Thus I'm sure I'm now seeing something I provisionally call a spot of light, but what it is that looks like this I'm not sure; it is probably a star, but then it could be a galaxy or a planet or a UFO or a satellite or a meteorological balloon or a firefly on the window, or even the product of liver trouble.) But it is impossible for me to doubt what I see here, namely the Absence of any spot of light, of any colour or shape or motion, of anything whatever. In this instance there is no question of interpretation, for there is nothing to interpret. The Void here is itself and not an appearance of something else; it doesn't point elsewhere or call for explanation or elucidation. What it visibly is it really is. How unlike the data which the scientist investigates, data that aren't at all what they seem! In fact, his job is never to take them at their face value, always to question and look beyond what he finds. Only this motionless and colourless No-shape, which is the investigator himself as 1st Person, is wholly indubitable and unproblematic. The One who is it knows what to make of it. The only 'thing' that can safely be taken at its face value is one's own faceless No-thing-ness. Everything else is at least two-faced and by its very nature deceptive.
SHEN-HUI: Seeing into one's Self-nature is seeing into Nothingness. Seeing into Nothingness is true seeing and eternal seeing.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 10, 2016 - 06:59am PT
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SHEN-HUI: Seeing into one's Self-nature is seeing into Nothingness. Seeing into Nothingness is true seeing and eternal seeing.
Wonderful statement.
Perhaps not accurate, final, or complete, though.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 10, 2016 - 09:19am PT
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Hey, you're getting it, I think.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 10, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
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What it [Void] visibly is it really is
A strange statement. I would think a "Void" would be invisible. So a "Void" is visibly invisible? Oh well, what do I know?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 10, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Continuing to continue living till the estate tax is repealed
Ho, by the way, you know that the Thimble is due to be blasted to increase the parking lot.
And the dam Across the valley with a water system, Hydro-electric plant and man made lake with million dollar homes is also in the works. Nothing creates profits and surplus revenue as fast as resource extraction and residential
Development. Except maybe war(s).
We have lived under an Oligarchy for a few decades.
the new world order was ushered in by the 1st Bush.
As if the resurgence of (j)Birch society ( like the troll Adam Burch on these pages !?)
& the white supremacist (k'l) philosophy which had lay smoldering in rural backwaters and corporate corridors has been offered the explosive gasses of xenophobia .
In this conflagration of events simple truths have been obscured by the jumping flames.
We are due to see the evil of totalitarianism spread further across Europe ( again )
This mirrors the start of the rise of the of the Nazis's in 1930.
we the Americans of this century have been fed the same hate speech and lies. Trump, is a puppet, He is now able to do the bidding of the masters he serves. The idea that the common
man will be given crumbs of support by scapegoating minority's is already underway.
The whos who here on the Taco is proud to cheer that they voted this next Hitler in to
power,
I've never been political, I've got diagnosable traits that a more savy less damaged person would try to hide.
Here in this -what is the essence of nothing- discussion is where the most at risk minority
Can And Is found.
Intellectual thought was the second target of the Nazis's. The same will come to pass in the following Trump regime.
You are the people who ,( Mr Gill and Long etAl, ) are the ones who should consider the history
we failed to learn and so are preparing to relive.
Calling insightful people wuss I.e.? Really! I'm not one trying to emigrate.
But as I am a victim, my Families gassed, and there histories erased I know what I'm watching.
The carfully crafted rise of the fourth Riech, it is different but the same in many ways.
The example of midnight or after midnight rallies, a ground swell of strident bafoon said, like the Brown shirts...
I'm crazy, not informed? I guess you are saying to me - I don't realize that it could never happen here or again.
Well, if the sand you have your heads in, is warm and comfortingly deep, then be secure.
The hoard is coming and many of the old and weak have buckled under.
Others been given The panecea of recreational drugs and others toys that distract.
We may not see the rapid swell this time because the Great white night of democracy a free
American superman to stand against the coming evil is stoned, sick, twisted dead.
I've nowhere else on this site to try to ring out a warning and
Subside So? The opiate of jobs and new wealth will be used to blanket any revolt.
I'm sad scared and right.
Find a few folks of Austrian / German heritage, go find some 90 year olds since One of mine all of our heros (Mr Gill, old enough to know )
sees those worried and wanting out
calls them
names that attack the only thing we all have had in common.
A strident life force that was most actualized when only tips were in contact with terra firma. Our individual pursuit of that sublime feeling is what
has given rise to the respect that has been your honor to have been the recipients of.
Well it is dawn here and I've got family to muster for another pointless day on the sad planet.
Your fool on the hill
Michael Scneider. *The last surfer of the void*
*V V V V V V V V*the "refresh" did not let me see more than the one post below, fun You?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 10, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
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Subsidies.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 10, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
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Is it better to pull back the curtain? To gaze upon the void?
Or is it better to be blissfully unaware, an actor on a stage?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 10, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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Beyond this curtain lies the Void . . .
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