Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
|
re: "extended intelligence" etc....
"I don’t know if you’ve heard of the neurodiversity movement, but Temple Grandin talks about this a lot. She says that Mozart and Einstein and Tesla would all be considered autistic if they were alive today." -Ito
"if we were able to eliminate autism and make everyone neuro-normal, I bet a whole slew of MIT kids would not be the way they are. One of the problems, whether we’re talking about autism or just diversity broadly, is when we allow the market to decide. Even though you probably wouldn’t want Einstein as your kid, saying “OK, I just want a normal kid” is not gonna lead to maximum societal benefit. -Ito
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/president-obama-mit-joi-ito-interview
"That goes to the larger issue that we wrestle with all the time around AI. Part of what makes us human are the kinks." -Obama
"They’re the mutations, the outliers, the flaws that create art or the new invention, right?" -Obama
“The last thing we want is a bunch of bureaucrats slowing us down as we chase the unicorn out there.”
"Let me start with what I think is the more immediate concern... If you’ve got a computer that can play Go, a pretty complicated game with a lot of variations, then developing an algorithm that lets you maximize profits on the New York Stock Exchange is probably within sight. And if one person or organization got there first, they could bring down the stock market pretty quickly, or at least they could raise questions about the integrity of the financial markets."
"Then there could be an algorithm that said, “Go penetrate the nuclear codes and figure out how to launch some missiles.”
"If that’s its only job, if it’s self-teaching and it’s just a really effective algorithm, then you’ve got problems.'' -Obama
|
|
cintune
climber
The Model Home
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 01:09pm PT
|
The fundamental difference between animal action potentials and plant action potentials is that the depolarization in plant cells is not accomplished by an uptake of positive sodium ions, but by release of negative chloride ions.
In case anyone was wondering. Hope all are well here.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
|
Oh boy . . . .
Looks like we need both a resident physicist and a resident Wizard here to add a spark to this thread.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
|
we might also ask what is memory and what is the nature of a recorded thought?
Hard to do better than to look to Eric Kandel:
In Search of Memory
Auf der Suche nach dem Gedächtnis (original title)
1h 35min | Documentary | 25 June 2009 (Germany)
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
|
The most interesting thread on ST, for sure
Well, I for one would agree. The discussions on free will, awareness, consciousness, and the wonders of the quantum world, not to mention the threat of scientism, keep me coming back.
Dirac's Dilemma
Another story told of Dirac is that when he first met the young Richard Feynman at a conference, he said after a long silence, "I have an equation. Do you have one too?"
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
|
Long silences can be productive.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
|
Hey Moose, I've had this thought lately that maybe people who are good at offwidth climbing are also naturally smarter than the general population by a long-shot. So far, it is a thesis without evidence. But that (evidence) doesn't seem to deter the anti-science crowd, so I've been thinking and thinking how I can, you know, come up with something to bolster my thesis. Nothing so far.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
|
There are very few anti science people on this thread. Including IMO the OP and mike L.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
|
I've had this thought lately that maybe people who are good at offwidth climbing are also naturally smarter than the general population by a long-shot
Well, maybe the ability to analyze and twist one's self into appropriate pretzel shapes has something to do with intellect. That and various anatomical advantages involving body size and weight, lever arm configurations, and the patience of Jove to squirm upward centimeter by centimeter.
They may also be naturally more amenable to suffering, and thus obtaining spiritual purity. Maybe it's a religious thing.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
|
I've been grading, harnessed with various "honey do's" here at the ranch, and my mother is visiting.
I've been reading about shamanism and some of Jung's ideas about collective unconscious. I intend to use both set of notions to look at or view the creative urge, its processes, and seeing. Basically, I think it would be instructive to use what spiritual masters have had to say about seeing reality is and apply that to what artists are doing. Rumi (an islamic mystic) reportedly said, "Behead yourself! . . . . Dissolve your whole body into vision: become, seeing, seeing, seeing!"
Being an artist or artistic--whether you are a painter, a sculptor, a writer, a musician, a potter, an actor, a dancer, even a climber or a mathematician--seems to me to be about seeing, about vision. To see reality NOT in one way but rather in an unconstrained and open way, to see infinite possibilities, not buy into consensus reality, to doubt just about everything, is (to me at least) completely about seeing, seeing, seeing.
When I go to artists' shows and I corner an artist and ask them what they're up to, almost without exception, I hear technique, I hear how they were learning their craft technically, about exercising some act they had learned or were practicing. But what it means, the vision it expresses, the very being of it--whether it be a vision provided by science or that of a religious person or a painter or ceramic potter--that I hear hardly ever. That to me is the very experience as experience qua experience. There I sense the unconscious expressing itself in mysterious, creative, and marvellous ways that suggest new takes on reality, proving over and over that the nature of reality is that it can show up as anything. It is unbounded, indescribable, undefinable, unresolvable, and, well . . . empty of what we'd call real substance.
Gotta get back to work.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 13, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
|
To see reality NOT in one way but rather in an unconstrained and open way
How true for creativity. But sometimes difficult.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2016 - 09:24am PT
|
proving over and over that the nature of reality is that it can show up as anything. It is unbounded, indescribable, undefinable, unresolvable, and, well . . . empty of what we'd call real substance.
Reality is indescribable? Could you please give an example?
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2016 - 11:35am PT
|
Perfect Minded
“Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.” (Philippians 3:15-16)
Earlier, Paul had noted that he was not “already perfect” (Philippians 3:12), using a form of the Greek verbteleioo. In today’s verse, Paul uses the adjective form teleios. Although the root of the word is the same, this particular usage is significant.
In verse 12, the Holy Spirit inspires Paul to use the past perfect tense of teleioo, rendering the translation “not having been perfected” and thereby recognizing that the end product of God’s salvation has not yet been completed. The adjective form, teleios, denotes the sense of maturity, both in our text and the other 18 instances in the New Testament.
Those of the family of God who are “mature,” even if we might be “otherwise minded,” are to expect that our Lord Jesus will reveal “even this,” or the prize that we are to focus on in Philippians 3:14. The “one thing” ofPhilippians 3:13 is so important that we must “walk by the same rule” and “mind the same thing” (today’s verse).
The Greek word for “walk” is only used four other times in the New Testament, and it describes marching in a row and following a prescribed order. We are to “walk in the steps” that Abraham exemplified (Romans 4:12), just as we are to “also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25).
Finally, we are exhorted to “mind” the same thing. Our thought processes are to be focused on that one thing that is most important—seeking the Kingdom first. May these clear commands find their way into our hearts. HMM III
http://www.icr.org/article/9554/
...Romans 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
"I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord."
Philippians 3:8
Spiritual knowledge of Christ will be a personal knowledge. I cannot know Jesus through another person's acquaintance with him. No, I must know him myself; I must know him on my own account. It will be an intelligent knowledge--I must know him, not as the visionary dreams of him, but as the Word reveals him. I must know his natures, divine and human. I must know his offices--his attributes--his works--his shame--his glory. I must meditate upon him until I "comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." It will be an affectionate knowledge of him; indeed, if I know him at all, I must love him. An ounce of heart knowledge is worth a ton of head learning. Our knowledge of him will be a satisfying knowledge. When I know my Saviour, my mind will be full to the brim--I shall feel that I have that which my spirit panted after. "This is that bread whereof if a man eat he shall never hunger." At the same time it will be an exciting knowledge; the more I know of my Beloved, the more I shall want to know. The higher I climb the loftier will be the summits which invite my eager footsteps. I shall want the more as I get the more. Like the miser's treasure, my gold will make me covet more. To conclude; this knowledge of Christ Jesus will be a most happy one; in fact, so elevating, that sometimes it will completely bear me up above all trials, and doubts, and sorrows; and it will, while I enjoy it, make me something more than "Man that is born of woman, who is of few days, and full of trouble"; for it will fling about me the immortality of the ever living Saviour, and gird me with the golden girdle of his eternal joy. Come, my soul, sit at Jesus's feet and learn of him all this day. - CHARLES SPURGEON
...2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2016 - 11:48am PT
|
Reality is indescribable? Could you please give an example?
-----
The "indescrible" aspect that Mike talks about and which is ubiquitous in the esoteric literature comes from a compound insight derived from sitting in the middle of raw experience for long enough to see that there are no stand-alone "things" that exist separate from any thing else, that all this stuff we call things and experience is a giant interconnected flood comprised of impermanent components that the closer we look, the less tangible they all become. Our discursive minds can latch onto the seemingly fixed "trees" in the forest, and say, "There. You see that oak. It is this and that and is comprised of this and that. And THAT is what it is and we can define it in this way." But even the oak is impermanent and ever changing.
We can define things in a temporary way, but ultimately, everything is "empty" of inherent or permanent nature. Even causation becomes redefined in this sense because the elements that apparently "caused" or impacted present "thingness," so to speak, are themselves in flux, or on close inspection, exist only as energy or glitch in and out of existence.
Pretty much the opposite of what our sense data and discursive minds tell us is so. Without getting hold of the ontological theme of impermanence, such talk will always sound like gibberish. Same goes for the notion that there is only the present moment, the infinite now. So long as these insights exist only as concepts, or ideas, they will never find much traction in someone's life.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
|
. . . sitting in the middle of raw experience for long enough to see that there are no stand-alone "things" that exist separate from any thing else, that all this stuff we call things and experience is a giant interconnected flood comprised of impermanent components that the closer we look, the less tangible they all become
When you say "see that" I presume you mean "another way of perceiving" and not "this is the only true vision". Fifty years ago I drifted in and out of this state, although clearly not to the extent you have reached. It's an interesting perspective, as long as one doesn't propose this is the "true" way of seeing reality. There is no such thing.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
|
There is only one way of perceiving, and none of us DO anything. Experience just pours in unbidden. None of us can ever nail down experience as a definite thing or object because it's all a roiling sea of moving and morphing (fill in the blank). The reason the esoteric traditions insist that death is an illusion is not to refute that we have a body that gets old and dies, but rather we were never alive as some stand-alone, separate "thing" or being in the first place. Ergo there was/is never any independent existence, no-mind independent, immutable stuff that is "really" out there. It's just this ceaseless flood of experience which ultimately is totally ungraspable.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2016 - 06:30pm PT
|
Nevertheless, you have not accounted for the scientific record. If the physical world is wholly dependent on human consciousness, why do we see evidence the universe has been operating as it currently operates long before man arrived on the scene?
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2016 - 06:54pm PT
|
We can define things in a temporary way, but ultimately, everything is "empty" of inherent or permanent nature.
Temporary seems to describe me. How does knowing that ultimately everything is "empty" of inherent or permanent nature affect what you do in a typical day?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
|
Ward, your appraisal posits consciousness as some independent, stand-alone source but consciousness is no such "thing," IMO. It too is wound into the whole shebang and is as unexplained and ungraspable as all get out. That's not to say we can't provisionally isolate out apparent objects "out there" and pull measurements and make predictions - technology and our lives depend on us doing so. But the operate word here is "provisionally."
Everything is impermanent, and nothing stands alone. But granted, our discursive minds say otherwise.
And MH2, you asked the 1,000,000 dollar question. Let me consider a response.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!