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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 5, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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I am the Tradlax
I speak for the cliffs
I speak for the cliffs
For the cliffs have no tongues
Come sit for a moment
I wish to tell you a tale
Of rock desecration
When man’s courage does fail
It was a beautiful day
At the base of Serenity Crack
I looked at a neighboring route
And was taken aback
“What’s wrong with you, Tradlax?
Why are you making a futz?”
Maxine’s Wall’s been Disneyfied
By some weak-minded putz!!
I first climbed that pitch
At the age of thirteen
Feet shod in EBs
Definitely not stealth rubber…if you know what I mean
It’s 5.10a slab moves,
Seventeen feet to the first clip
I’d probably twist an ankle
If on those first moves I slipped
The moves were exciting
The holds rather dicey
My heart it was racing
Getting to that first bolt was spicy
But once I clipped in
My heart filled with pride
Facing up to that challenge
Had changed me inside
But now in the name of safety
A bolt has been added
Why not a fixed rope? Or a floor that’s been padded?
The pitch has been neutered
The psychological crux it is gone
This fundamental change
Of an existing route is just wrong!
No one is forced to climb a route
We must all analyze the risk
To the man who added this bolt
I say “tsk tsk tsk.”
It took a few tools
Some time and some brawn
But the Tradlax reports
That bolt is now gone
The 10a slab is still there
Getting to that first clip is still scary
Not each route was meant
For every Tom, Dick, and Harry
Royal Robbins’ wise words
Still echo through time,
“Better to raise ourselves
Than to lower the climb.”
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Matt's
climber
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Seventeen feet to the first clip
I thought there was a fixed pin before the clip...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It is also a mediocre climb with few redeeming feature. Nice to speak up for ugly sisters though.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Wow, that's a whole lot of bad poetry for what I recall to be a nice, but average quality route. It seems to hold some special significance for you.
Since we seem to be voting here, I also did the route (in either EBs or Fires) with a runout to the first bolt. It wouldn't surprise me if the route has gotten much more polished and slick in the ensuing 30 years. The bolt addition did not bother me.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Anyone who calls Clint a "weak minded putz" puts themselves into their own well-deserved and separate category of stupidity and small-mindedness.
I happen to agree that the bolt shouldn't have been added after this many years. I think removing it was the correct move.
But a poem?
Rubbing it in?
Your "poem" contains the words "my heart filled with pride."
Yeah, obviously. And apparently for more reasons than just climbing 17 unprotected feet.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I thought Clint's explanation of why the bolt went in was rational, it was in keeping with the protection from the FA.
I'll clarify my post by agreeing with this statement.
In the other/first thread, Clint came right out and said that he'd added the bolt. And he stated his reasons, which were indeed rational.
My earlier comment was to indicate that I happen to disagree with his rationale (and I'll bet that he and I could have resolved this "disagreement" with three minutes of face-to-face discussion and zero drama).
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jim H:
You have publicly disgraced yourself with this name-calling and spraying about your actions.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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It saddens me to see the poem posted by the OP. Clint clearly, and without any arrogance or bravado, took responsibility and stated his rational for placing the bolt where a fixed pin once existed. Now we have the OP and his poem which calls Clint a "weak-minded putz." I don't think Clint deserved that remark. It says a lot about the OP and how he conducts his business.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Yes, calling Clint a "weak minded putz" was mean, and factually inaccurate.
To the OP:
Clint is one of the nicest, most thoughtful, and most generous (with his time and knowledge) people I have ever met. He's also one of the most dedicated climbers I have ever met.
He's climbed thousands of routes, possibly tens of thousands.
He has mentored hundreds of young climbers over the years, myself included.
I've done many routes with him and can attest that he is steely-minded, not weak-minded when it comes to leading.
he has spend so much time replacing worn and dangerous bolts and anchors.
He has spend thousands of hours documenting climbs he has done and has contributed to many guidebooks. The new Yosemite guidebook, when it arrives, will be a resource for years.
You didn't like the bolt he installed and you pulled it. OK. But this poem reflects poorly on you.
P.S. Hi Jeremy!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 20, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
I placed it a couple of weeks ago.
My partner told me that back in the 70s, there used to be a fixed pin before the first bolt.
You can see the pin scar at the overlap there.
It looks like some rock broke off at the pin scar, as it's very shallow there now and you can't place clean gear there.
It used to be an aid climb, after all.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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can somebody please buy the OP a mask and cape?
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Let me tell you a story about how dedicated Clint is to "doing the right thing" when it comes placing and replacing bolts.
A couple of years ago, Clint and I were replacing the bolts on the aid ladder on Daedulus, a 5-pitch route on Machete Ridge, at Pinnacles National Park. The bolts were very old Star Dyrvins with either pop top or SMC chromoly hangers. After leading the aid ladder on those old, bad, bolts Clint started replacing the bolts from the top down on rappel.
The route is very overhanging and even with down clipping each new bolt(which was put in the exact same hole) Clint could not reach the first bolt. So, I unclipped from the belay and climbed up onto the horribly loose and sloping ledge at the start of the bolt ladder. Neither of us could reach the first bolt with enough height to replace it from the ledge, Glen Denny is one tall dude.
I clipped myself into Clint, who was on rappel, as my belay and standing on the crumbly ledge, I had just enough purchase and strength to be able to pull him in close enough to the rock so he could get a few good swings with the hammer to help deepen the hole before I had to let go and he swung out into space over 300 feet above the ground.
It took us about an hour in this manner to be able to deepen the original hole and then put in the bolt, but we got it done. I would have been easy to just say "screw it" and put the replacement bolt in a more convenient (for us!) location, but we didn't. That's not how Clint is wired.
This is just one of many instances where Clint has shown that he truly respects the rock and those who have tread there before him.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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^^^
Bruce, as you no doubt know, your example is barely the tip of the iceberg.
I'll go further and outright state that there is no better steward, no one with better ethics and no better representative of the climbing community than Clint (and few, if any others are as good in these areas).
But I sense that I'm preaching to the choir too. He's well known for these things on this site, and throughout California.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dang, looks like it came out easy. So much for the rock quality....
No need to apologize; it's called "poetic license."
I am sympathetic to your line of reasoning.
Do I get the hanger back? :-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I can't believe someone got up and actually did something about the sacrilege of some bolt instead of forever whining here about it.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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So Are you Famous enough yet?
This reminds me of the fool who scrubbed the chalk bolt from that boulder,
in order to write a click-bait post, did anybody ever physically, (not just in writing) stomp that guys fingers? should have.
As I remember the telling; It was a spot where 'we' once slept. & that the bolt was put there to see the spot in the dirt, after dark(?)?
So ya famous enough now? (It may take more than 6 posts to achieve)
if any one cares a as to this stooges' name, hey his brother had(S)
SOME 1ST ASCENTS, but both are weak and disreputable for actions both old and new.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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yes, taken as it was spew'd, the removal of the bolt( BOTH THE CHALK ONE AND THIS ONE TOO) to draw views to one's blog, deserves a stomping of the hand(s)
Back in the Day,
As climbers back then knew, only a very few members of the circus could do as they pleased. It was a very "Locals 1st" kind Of a place. The denizens of the ditch were known for messing with visitors who showed any pluck, and dared to throw hard at test-pieces. If you were one of the cognoscenti, you could add a bolt to free a pitch & re-name the route(?), but if you ever dared to bang an extra pin, those '80s masters would . . .
Leave a Steaming 'coiler' on yer rope (for example)
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Hoser
climber
Vancouver,Rome
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Imagine if the OP did something worthwhile with that time and energy...like replaced a bad bolt... and didnt spray about it on multiple forums. Its amazing what makes people get up and do something, very few like Clint - no need for boasting, just does whats right.
Something to look up to for sure.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Damn, every once in awhile the Gnome hits it out of the park, well said sir.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Actually OP doing something worthwhile with that time and energy for climbing community- : he is "having amazing deals on clothing for Singles&Swingers evenings in Planet Granite". Probably he thinks that his amazing bolt's chopping poetry will boost his sales:
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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WORSE THAN THAT HE HAS NOT APOLOGIZED.
THIS WAS ALL A SET UP.
This putz, wrote 4 posts to set the story rolling. then came back to crow about this.
By the way;
It was you, DMT, that changed my mind,about bolts littering up the place(El Cap)
. . . as to the waste of everything that is important . . . to remove protection.
I am not into bolting, i have projects that need them. As top-ropes, I do not consider them climbed.( I try to use No chalk or aid but, I do not try risky leads anymore. My Rack Is Old, from the last century.
It is a new generation, it is theirs to do with as they see fit.
Removing gear is not this generations gig.
That two of the best intention-ed (& historic, sorry ya dinosaurs) stewards of climbing were in on the fix, and have said all that has been said, Makes Horni. . . look like the . . .
lets just say It takes one to know one!
knowhaImeen
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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from FB "Of course I clipped the bolt on the way up before chopping it. It's scary up there. That's the point of the story. Sheeesh. And of course Clint isn't a putz. He's a great guy...outstanding reputation and contributes wonderfully and graciously to the climbing community. I have a great deal of respect for him I used the word putz for two reasons. First, it was the initial gut reaction I had upon spying the extraneous stainless steel admission of failure, so I continue to use the word, right or wrong. Second, I was hard pressed to find a word that rhymed with 'futz.' I'm sadly dismayed that you put more weight in the slight of calling someone a putz for doing something unethical than someone doing something unethical. Of course if you're familiar with the story, Clint says that since there was likely a fixed piton there when Jimmy Carter was president that it's okay to drill a hole in the rock now. I vehemently disagree. When it comes to bolting, less is more."
I don't know personally much about the route. But I have seen Clint's countless fantastic posts here about stewardship of routes. And seeing this logic which claims an initial impression is more important than the facts, and ignores the feedback from the previous thread, makes me side even more that this bolt is a good idea.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Clip then chop?
OMG - I knew it was too good to be true that someone would rise above Superloser and go git 'er done - what a fuk'n joke.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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I think Clint has a bit to much merit to be called a weak minded putz. He openly admitted what he did and why and was open to an opposing view point. Plus your poem sucks. I will keep it mellow and just say, Dude, get a grip, ya weak minded putz!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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This whole brouhaha is just that...laughable.
Tempest/teapot silliness.
And no one's mentioned popcorn in two threads.
It's all in pretty poetaste, IMO.
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WBraun
climber
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since there was likely a fixed piton there when Jimmy Carter was president that it's okay to drill a hole in the rock now.
I vehemently disagree. When it comes to bolting, less is more."
Sometimes ..... according to time and circumstance, a bolt will go in.
So ... not all circumstances are the same according to time ......
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Matt's
climber
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is this all a troll?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Clint is cool as a cucumber in his post on this thread.
The OP disagreed and did something about it, fair. As to the what he had to say and how he said it, lame.
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WBraun
climber
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You know this place is fuked up when good people like Clint start getting trashed .......
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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You know this place is fuked up when good people like Clint start getting trashed .......
To be fair, while you have a point, the filter hasn’t proved to be very good.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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I effing hate to have to come on this deteriorating load but.....
I've been there with Clint-side by side-keeping the history and the safety alive. And Clint has rolled with (as Werner points out) and helped shape the modern take on preservation. Most-and they are few- replacers have come to the conclusion that pitons are, and were, temporary. This has been hashed out between the replacers and FA parties in other cases and what came of it was replacing with bolts was a better option then replacing a pin (for reasons one can look up on other threads). Now, when doing an FA on lead, most that I know of are opting to place a bolt intstead of a pin for many reasons having to do with less long term damage to rock, and ensuring future protection. Clint is such a reasonable and well thought out character and always, ALWAYS! checks in.....
As to this guys actions, he's a one off. I don't believe his ethical arguments stand in the majority and it's a blip on Clint's radar. There's alway going to be one and I'm sure Clint is keeping on......As for the climb, bolts have been added per FA wishes and can be taken away. Checking in with the FA ultimately puts it to rest.
P.S. Jim Brennan....you should check your history. RR put up "The Gray Ghost" in TM. A route TM Herbert said "was not like him". But to get in to an ethical discussion has caused a digression of the real topic which is preservation of routes, regardless of style.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Maybe the OP, since he's so badazz should go follow woot boy around.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Clips the bolt 'cause he's too scared to be there without it - claims ethical high ground of boldness and tradition and chops it - calls the guy who managed to get up there without said bolt a putz - sprays it all over social media.
Holy $hit, Jim has got to be Supertopo's Biggest Wanker Ever.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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name calling, chest thumping, inconsistent logic:
yep, we climbers are no different from the politicians we love to hate
The spirit of the OP doesn't resonate with me. Hopefully the hole was patched.
Give Clint back his hanger and talk to him face to face. This whole episode is so lame
If anyone reading this thread is interested in actually doing good for climbing in Yosemite please consider volunteering for climbing trail work next year or contributing to the ASCA
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Check in wth the FA party if possible. Maybe they care......
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Clint and Jim need to talk over beers before someone's rope gets soiled
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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He chopped a bolt that he clipped on the way up?? Is this a joke? I mostly have no dog in the bolt wars but that would be the lamest move. Ever!
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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I think it's good that the bolt was removed. No disrespect to Clint, I just don't agree that it should have been added.
Imagine if Nanook had added the bolt in the same spot and defended it with the same reasoning (there used to be a piton there 40 years ago). Would a single person on this forum have defended the retrobolt?
I also think Jim clipping the bolt on the way up is irrelevant. Being able to skip a bolt isn't what justifies chopping it. A bolt being added to an established climb decades after some piton went missing is what justifies chopping it.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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^^ if woot boy had articulated his reasoning in the same way as Clint did, here where I would read it I'd have had no problem even though I think the dude is a nutjob.
(no disrespect to nutjob:)
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Interesting how everyone debates what happens to someone else's route. Who knows when or what the FA party's done/thought since their creation. No disrespect to all of our intent but just maybe they care about what happens to their route. The only law, tenet, comminality etc. that's ever come out of this endless debate is that the FA should have ultimate input into what becomes of the route. Especially important when restoration (from original thread wording) is involved which is what sparked this and other stupid torper messes. I'm sure Clint was trying to interpret the intent of the FA party as you all are.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You know, I’m preplexed. What is this ST preoccupation with all things Yosemite? I know where the Valley fits in climbing history. Hell, it was the major formative venue in my climbing life. But to have all of these posts on two threads by the same OP concerning a climb that would be obscure and neglected even in a climbing backwater has me puzzled....It’s myopic.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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And narcissistic.
BTW, thank you for Mons Obscurum, Jim.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Jim,
for a number of climbers this was their first 5.10 lead so maybe that makes it worthy of discussion.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mr. Hornibrook,
I kinda thought you were a jerk with your put down of Me and Stu for bouldering with pads this summer. Thanks for setting the record straight.
Roger Brown
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tallguy
Trad climber
tacoma
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In Clint I trust. Case closed.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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haha nice one Roger!
good example
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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What the great Maxine's Wall debate is not on the radar in Chamonix?
We used to climb the "Wall" in EB's and it seemed adequately protected back in '79-'80. I don't recall the fixed pin.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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DMT......you've been through this before and this is yet another chapter in the ongoing debate of who decides. You see the larger picture and ask good questions. I think the last go round you were in the minority in that most agreed that no-one owns the rock but perhaps the idea of a route and that the majority felt that the original intent be upheld. But perhaps this is changing? Clint's last post seems to suggest that even he is questioning the replacement of protection in keeping with the original historic intent because, perhaps the community excepts what changes have occured.
Ofcourse physical and communal aspects can change and the original intent changes along with it. Sloan's name keeps reccuring because he obviously disregards anyones ownership or intent. And I question my own ownership of trails I may break through stone. I'm not sure of what I'd do if they were altered or even erased. So I ask you: What is a route?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Maxine’s is OK. It seemed to protect OK. Not really significant.
Why is it on anybody’s radar?
You guys need to get laid....
...and relax....
...and maybe go climbing.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Wasn't pitch one of Maxine's wall actually first done on aid? That means the fixed pin was probably left over from the original aid ascent (as were the bolts). I see from the Sierra Club Roper green guide (1971) that the first pitch is listed as 5.7 A3 or 5.10. And the first ascentionists were Les Wilson and Al Macdonald in March 1962. The yellow Meyers Yosemite Guide (1982) states that the late Pete Livesey and Andreas Mauer freed the whole route in 1973. Which brings up the question: Who exactly freed the first pitch of Maxine's? It must have been freed sometime between 1962 and 1971 but by whom? Murky.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Well said DMT.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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I don't know. Clint is definitely The Man. Even Werner says so. But I'm going with the underdog here only because so very few take the effort to resist the tide, that of removing the spice from climbing. Bolt choppers will always be in the minority so no need to worry. Thousands of bolts going in every day compared to a few removed each year.
He may be a doosh but he brought it out in the open and "checked" the current tide.
Arne
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Replacing bolts is a lot of hard work. And only a very few have put in the time and have replaced most of Yosemite. Most bolt replacers consult guide books and the community as replacement guide. It's easy for most of you to sit here and make proclamations. Sure the guy took action but it's easy to take action on a single bolt or even a single route. You don't know Ionlyski what was where and few us does. Clint and Roger do the best they can to stick to what was and not get caught up in all the bullsh#t. Which in the end most of this is. In this case, it sounds like both might be right. There was protection. A bolt was not ADDED as the OP suggests but pro REPLACED that once existed. However, that pro has been gone for years and climbed since and thus the change accepted. So it appears both parties may be right however the remover could have done a much better job of making his point. One bolt isn't a big deal if your not putting in the hard work.
Edit: I agree in part Warbler but rising populations can change things. Look at surfing. There used to be a fairly strict code of ethics there as well but the surfing population exploded and the "rules" no longer exist. Although most new route activity does seem to support that "routes" are original paths and should be respected as to there intent. As more and more climbers come to the Valley, and the commodity more scarce, only time will tell.
Edit2: DMT....Agree mightely with the respect. This is a tricky one. In this case I would say leave it be but much disrespect was shown. Hard not to factor that in.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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You guys have gone WAY beyond the OP's attention span and level of comprehension - that was just proven.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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You don't know Ionlyski what was where and few us does.
Exactly, I'm not weighing in on right/wrong cuz I don't know squat. Only making white noise like most others here and "rooting" for the A team or the B team.
Clint and Jim are the only ones making any effort and Clint has clearly shown a dedicated ongoing effort, one of quality. He's a class act. I loved his line "can I have my hanger back"?
So, score 1 for the choppers. It'll probably go back in anyway.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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All I can think of looking at this thread are all the poor little electrons that have been made homeless by the intardnet hand wringing over one crummy bolt. I hear it’s all people can talk about in Yemen lately.
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JLyons
Sport climber
Cali
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As a father of daughters, my use of the female pronoun is purposeful
I wonder what they would think of all those photos you have in your album of ladies wearing very little?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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And Rielly. Thank you for taking valuable time from your day to put fingers to keyboard to tell us of our insignificance....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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No problem! Maybe you could swing by and I could help you with yer dyslexia and prioritizing while you fix my wheelchair?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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More like Aspurger's.....I'll be right over....
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chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
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I first climbed that pitch
At the age of thirteen
Feet shod in EBs
...
My heart it was racing
Getting to that first bolt was spicy
But once I clipped in
My heart filled with pride
There was this time when I got to the crux of a climb I realized that the hangers had been removed. Did I cry? Yes! Was I scared? Probably. Did I quit? No! I pushed on into the unknown! It's what manly men like me and Jim Hornibrook do.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Ya, let's decide for the FA party......
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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It's only a guess, but I bet someone freed the first pitch of Maxine's Wall (5.10a) long before Pete Livesey. Think I saw that pitch listed as 5.10a in that article of Bridwell's listing a number of Valley routes as 5.10a/b/c/d; 5.11a etc. etc. Means that someone, somewhere knows who did the first free ascent of the first pitch. In any case, I bet they clipped the in situ pin as their first point of protection when they did the F.A. Someone knows. Clint? "The unperceived perceiver."
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chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
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Or maybe some sarcasm is going over my head?
Man, I hate when I try to be super-sarcastic and someone thinks I'm serious.
I thought the OP was just trying to spray about how bad-ass he was in boldly climbing a 10a in eb's a hundred years ago so I wrote some over-the-top spray of my own. Epic fail.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Having done this route several times without the pin, was it originally used for aid?
Probably a dumb question.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Having done this route several times without the pin, was it originally used for aid?
Probably, since Maxine's was originally rated 5.7 A3 (which may have occurred up on a higher pitch). No way of knowing unless a witness or picture from 1962 still exists. The proportions are just about correct though if someone pounded in that pin, clipped it with an aider, and then drilled the first bolt on aid.
We need a historical witness!
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WBraun
climber
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We need a historical witness!
No you don't.
Just be done with this st00pid sh!t and get on with climbing .....
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| Messages 1 - 71 of total 71 in this topic |
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