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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 10, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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OK, by popular request here's a whole new thread to consolidate things I started on two others. First post is a recap.
A study just published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences aims to overthrow scientific orthodoxy in a field that I grew up around, and still sometimes follow -- plate tectonics. My sympathies are with the rebels.
This new paper by Anderson and Natland argues that mantle plumes, those cute little upwellings that cause so many cartoon volcanoes, do not exist and never have. If the authors are right (and there is a "small but vocal" group of other geologists and geophysicists who have been making this argument for years) then much of mainstream geology has gone badly astray over the past several decades.
The PNAS abstract and complete paper are here. From the more colorful Huffington Post writeup,
Have scientists had volcanoes all wrong?
A popular theory has it that, at least in certain types of volcanos, eruptions occur when molten rock known as magma gushes up from deep inside the earth via narrow jets known as mantle plumes. But a new study of seismic data has identified one very big hole in the theory:
Mantle plumes don't exist.
"Mantle plumes have never had a sound physical or logical basis," study co-author Dr. Don L. Anderson, professor emeritus of geophysics at Caltech in Pasadena, California, said in a written statement released by the university. "They are akin to Rudyard Kipling's 'Just So Stories,' a reference to the British author's tales offering silly explanations for how giraffes and other animals got their peculiar anatomies."
Mantle plumes were first hypothesized in 1971 and widely adopted among geologists around 1990, Anderson told The Huffington Post in an email. But despite significant research activity over the past couple of decades, the seismic data available to researchers were too spotty either to prove or disprove the existence of the plumes.
According to the new study--co-authored by Dr. James Natland, a professor emeritus of marine geology and geophysics at the University of Miami--robust new data and improved theory show once and for all that those plumes are nowhere to be seen.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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The Anderson & Natland paper does not come out of the blue; these ideas have been around for years among geologists, but rejected and even actively suppressed by the mainstream. Here is an earlier earlier and extra feisty version of the argument, from someone I know well. Published in Lithos 2011:
Plate tectonics began in Neoproterozoic time, and plumes from deep mantle have never operated
The widely accepted concepts that plate tectonics has operated throughout all or most of geologic time and that plumes from deep mantle have delivered heat and material to the crust are contradicted by powerful multidisciplinary evidence, some of which is summarized here. Pre-Neoproterozoic rocks, individually and as associations, and their geologic and crustal structures, are very different from modern ones, and include none of the definitive indicators of plate interactions that are abundant in the Phanerozoic record. The assumption that plumes rise from deep mantle is derived from false 1950s assumptions that Earth has evolved slowly from a cold start, and survives as dogma despite disproof of its early basis and of its subsequent generalizations and predictions. The history of science contains many gaps between consensus and truth, but most mainline literature presumes that consensus favoring ancient plates and plumes obviates the need for evaluation of assumptions, evidence, and alternatives.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
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A key publication from anti-plume geologists (who have often had to find their own publication venues) is this book by Gillian Foulger. Not light reading (emphasis added).
Since the advent of the mantle plume hypothesis in 1971, scientists have been faced with the problem that its predictions are not confirmed by observation. For thirty years, the usual reaction has been to adapt the hypothesis in numerous ways. As a result, the multitude of current plume variants now amounts to an unfalsifiable hypothesis.
In the early 21st century demand became relentless for a theory that can explain melting anomalies in a way that fits the observations naturally and is forward-predictive. From this the Plate hypothesis emerged–the exact inverse of the Plume hypothesis. The Plate hypothesis attributes melting anomalies to shallow effects directly related to plate tectonics. It rejects the hypothesis that surface volcanism is driven by convection in the deep mantle.
Earth Science is currently in the midst of the kind of paradigm-challenging debate that occurs only rarely in any field. This volume comprises its first handbook. It reviews the Plate and Plume hypotheses, including a clear statement of the former. Thereafter it follows an observational approach, drawing widely from many volcanic regions in chapters on vertical motions of Earth's crust, magma volumes, time-progressions of volcanism, seismic imaging, mantle temperature and geochemistry.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
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Actually the argument is that there *was* no plate tectonics before (depending on sources) something like 600 to 1000ma.
If you check out the Lithos paper you'll see the evidence is very broad based. Seismic data inform the new Anderson paper, but much before that draws on other information, like coastal geology constraints showing the Pacific Plate just did not change direction by 60 degrees, as required for the hot-spot explanation of the Emperor/Hawaii chain.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 10, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
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Makes sense. So what then, made Hawaii?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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So what then, made Hawaii?
A propagating crack or weakness, which unlike the whole Pacific plate really could make sudden change in direction.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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So how to they reconcile the seemingly stationary nature of the Hawaiian hotspot relative to shallow mantle convection?
It's not actually stationary, that turns out to have been an assumption. If you try to define a stationary georeference system using Hawaii and other alleged hotspots, you find out they don't work. All are moving relative to each other, hence they can't be fixed from deep sources. All kinds of fancy hypotheses such as mantle "winds" were invented to explain things away as hotspot predictions failed every empirical test.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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What drives this?
Good question, good picture. See that 60 degree bend? It's conventionally explained as a change in direction of movement by the whole Pacific plate, gliding over a fixed hotspot. Except we know from coastal geology, which constrains Pacific plate movements pretty well, that such a change did not happen.
So the alternative is that you're looking at something like a propagating crack or weakness. Volcanism does not require a new heat source, rocks below the crust are already hot. What it requires is a release of pressure above.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 10, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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Cool. Thanks for sharing, Larry.
Is there a theory for what started the plates moving?
[Edited:] I see it is something about density inversion.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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Like I said, not light reading, but here is an excerpt from the Lithos paper cited above, explaining why everything you learned about Hawaii is wrong. Note the reference in this 2011 paper to "Anderson, in press." That's the same Anderson who wrote today's new PNAS paper; not sure whether it is the same paper.
All published tomographic models of purported deep plumes are severely flawed, but I discuss here only Hawaii, which provides the type example for rationalization of a “plume track” while disregarding both observed tectonic controls of magmatism and failure of geophysical predictions in plume speculations (Anderson, in press). Pro-plume tomographers Wolfe et al. (2009) depicted a low-velocity plume rising through much of the upper mantle beneath the Hawaiian region, and a disconnected narrow plume rising obliquely northwestward toward it from a depth of 1500 km in the lower mantle. Wolfe et al. modeled only steeply rising teleseismic S waves to calculate uppermantle structure, and only steeply rising SKS waves to calculate midmantle structure with rays that came through the liquid core via phase conversions. The narrow seismometer spread precluded sampling deep mantle beneath the islands with moderately and gently inclined crossfire, and Wolfe et al. did not utilize any other steeply rising S and P rays that would have increased coverage, nor did they incorporate any surface waves, receiver functions, or Vp/Vs derivatives to constrain depths, amplitudes, and characters of possible anomalies.Wolfe et al. truncated their published model downward at 2000 km, but the narrow bundle of SKS rays that alone defined their purported lower-mantle plume rose northwestward through a poorly known lowermost-mantle region of low velocity (likely recording high iron content and high density, not high temperature), which they acknowledged could be modeled as their plume — but they claimed a plume to provide the “simplest” explanation. Wolfe et al. forced their S-wave time delay deep into the upper mantle by assuming that only moderate retardation occurred within either the crust or a shallow magma-generating system. Leahy et al. (2010; Wolfe was second author) showed, with receiver-function analysis of the same seismometer records, that the upper-mantle “plume” of Wolfe et al. (2009) was the product of downward smearing of the time delay within thickened Hawaiian Swell crust. Leahy et al. acknowledged previous observational proof that the Hawaiian region lacked plume-predicted high heat flow.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
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But that would be upper mantle, wouldn't it? Well above the 660km discontinuity?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 10, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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Just to throw my 2 cents out there, this falls in the realm of what was called geo-fantasy or arm waving by the guys and gals who look at rocks and fossils. It IS about time we moved past concepts like Mantle winds if you ask me. I will also suggest that this is more of a beginning than an end of the discussion of how our planet works.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 10, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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If we have any real scientists who publish in peer reviewed journals here, please speak up to refute or deny this. I've heard that PNAS is not really a peer reviewed journal; rather, it is a forum for people who have already established themselves in their field through other peer-reviewed publications (like Science, Nature, Cell, etc), people who have been admitted to the National Academy of Sciences.
So it is better than cheezeball or corporate publications, in that it reflects the integrity of a real successful scientist, but the methods and data from which conclusions are drawn are not subject to acceptance by their peers before publication.
Is this true?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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I've heard that PNAS is not really a peer reviewed journal; rather, it is a forum for people who have already established themselves in their field through other peer-reviewed publications (like Science, Nature, Cell, etc), people who have been admitted to the National Academy of Sciences.
I know PNAS is peer reviewed because I've done peer reviews for them, not on this topic of course. But here's Wikipedia's better response.
All research papers published in PNAS are peer-reviewed.[1] The standard mode is for papers to be submitted directly to PNAS rather than going through an Academy member. Members may handle the peer review process for up to 4 of their own papers per year—this is an open review process because the member selects and communicates directly with the referees. These submissions and reviews, like all for PNAS, are evaluated for publication by the PNAS Editorial Board. Until July 1, 2010, members were allowed to communicate up to 2 papers from non-members to PNAS every year. The review process for these papers was anonymous in that the identities of the referees were not revealed to the authors. Referees were selected by the NAS member.[1][2][3] PNAS eliminated communicated submissions through NAS members as of July 1, 2010, while continuing to make the final decision on all PNAS papers.[4]
The Lithos paper was certainly peer reviewed, and others include a newer one in Tectonophysics that I'll get 'round to citing later. But part of the problem is that major publication outlets in the field have been controlled by people with career investment in plumology.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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I will also suggest that this is more of a beginning than an end of the discussion of how our planet works.
Maybe so, if the revolution gains traction now that it's out in the open. From "An Alternative Earth" (dig the title!) published in GSA Today (2003). Emphasis added.
The standard Earth of geodynamics and geochemistry is rationalized from assumptions that the mantle is compositionally inverted—still-unfractionated lower mantle beneath volatile-depleted upper mantle—and that material circulates easily from bottom to top. Multidisciplinary data better fit a less-volatile and less-radioactive planet wherein depleted lower mantle, fractionated early and irreversibly, is decoupled from upper mantle plus crust that evolve and circulate separately. Early Archean fractionation produced global(?) felsic crust and refractory upper mantle. Later Archean granite-and-greenstone upper crust formed atop this ancient crust, which remained hot and weak; distinct continents and oceans did not exist, and upper mantle was much hotter than now. Plate tectonics began ca. 2.0 Ga when continents could stand above oceans and oceanic lithosphere could cool to subduction-enabling density and thickness. Upper mantle has since become more fertile and new increments of continental crust more mafic as continental crust has been progressively diminished by recycling into cooling mantle. Plate circulation is driven by subduction, which is enabled by density inversion produced by sea- water cooling from the top of oceanic lithosphere, is self-organized, and is confined to upper mantle. The matching rates of hinge rollback and of advance of fronts of overriding plates are keys to dynamics. Slabs sinking broadside from retreating hinges drive both subducting and overriding plates and force seafloor spreading in both shrinking and expanding oceans. An Antarctica-fixed framework depicts prediction-confirming “absolute” plate motions that make kinematic sense, whereas hotspot and no-net-rotation frames do not. Plumes from deep mantle, subduction into deep mantle, and bottom-up convective drive do not exist.
More recent work brings the start of plate tectonics a billion years or more closer to the present.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 10, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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Hmmmm. This could wreak havoc on the interpretation of igneous source areas.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 10, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
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PNAS is a peer-reviewed journal and one of the prestigious ones, at that, in part because it publishes work from a variety of disciplines.
Stuff that appears there is often the kind of work that will or at least could be of interest to folks working in fields outside the author's home discipline.
is this behind the pay wall?
http://www.pnas.org/site/aboutpnas/index.xhtml#PNAS_Online
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 10, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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chiloe, no, i meant the pnas homepage. i've been regularly linking pieces from there in other threads, but realized now that no one w/o an institutional sub can probably access them. otherwise nutjob would've already seen the pnas explication of its review process.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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Ah, yes, that trips me up sometimes too.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 10, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
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Chiloe...difficult to explain diamond xenocrysts & garnet-peridotite xeonliths in kimberlite pipes without a deep (150 to 450 km depth) mantle source.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v481/n7381/full/nature10740.html
Kimberlite ascent by assimilation-fuelled buoyancy
Nature 481, 352–356 (19 January 2012) doi:10.1038/nature10740
Received 29 July 2011 Accepted 28 November 2011 Published online 18 January 2012
Kimberlite magmas have the deepest origin of all terrestrial magmas and are exclusively associated with cratons1, 2, 3. During ascent, they travel through about 150 kilometres of cratonic mantle lithosphere and entrain seemingly prohibitive loads (more than 25 per cent by volume) of mantle-derived xenoliths and xenocrysts (including diamond)4, 5. Kimberlite magmas also reputedly have higher ascent rates6, 7, 8, 9 than other xenolith-bearing magmas10, 11. Exsolution of dissolved volatiles (carbon dioxide and water) is thought to be essential to provide sufficient buoyancy for the rapid ascent of these dense, crystal-rich magmas. The cause and nature of such exsolution, however, remains elusive and is rarely specified6, 9. Here we use a series of high-temperature experiments to demonstrate a mechanism for the spontaneous, efficient and continuous production of this volatile phase. This mechanism requires parental melts of kimberlite to originate as carbonatite-like melts. In transit through the mantle lithosphere, these silica-undersaturated melts assimilate mantle minerals, especially orthopyroxene, driving the melt to more silicic compositions, and causing a marked drop in carbon dioxide solubility. The solubility drop manifests itself immediately in a continuous and vigorous exsolution of a fluid phase, thereby reducing magma density, increasing buoyancy, and driving the rapid and accelerating ascent of the increasingly kimberlitic magma. Our model provides an explanation for continuous ascent of magmas laden with high volumes of dense mantle cargo, an explanation for the chemical diversity of kimberlite, and a connection between kimberlites and cratons.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 10, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
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Chiloe: so now that I've read more of this thread, your questioning whether there is any evidence of magma that originates in the lower mantle (below 660 km)? correct?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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Chiloe: so now that I've read more of this thread, your questioning whether there is any evidence of magma that originates in the lower mantle (below 660 km)? correct?
Yes, I think that's it. To be clear, I'm not an originator of these ideas, just a reader with keen interest.
The basic argument is that sinking slabs are plated down above the 660km discontinuity, displacing warmer mantle as they descend. Little if any material crosses this discontinuity; whole-mantle convection or deep plumes don't exist. The great eruptions of large igneous provinces (LIPs), traditionally explained as something like a flattened plume head breaking the surface, instead arise from the fact that mantle can be quite warm below its insulating lid, so large amounts of melt can accumulate at relatively shallow depths, and erupt with a release of pressure from above.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 06:44pm PT
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Got perovskite?
Hirose et al. suggest a phase transition from perovskite might help explain the 660km seismic discontinuity. I've seen that idea mentioned in some of the anti-plume papers too.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 10, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
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Chiloe: just read the Anderson & Natland paper. The high resolution 3D Vs tomography supports large-scale, mushroom-like thermal anomalies beneath spreading ridges & "hot spots" rather than narrow, sheet- or pipe-like features.
Still not sure how this model explains kimberlite pipes, diamonds, perovskite, etc. I guess kimberlite pipes are associated with continental interiors; whereas, this paper is dealing with the mantle beneath oceanic crust.
Anyway, thanks for posting this thread.
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thebravecowboy
climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
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Sep 10, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
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like I need any additions to my reading list right now besides issue #32 of rock and ice. thanks for nothing [sarcasm]
once in a blue moon, this place is serendipity incarnate. thanks chiloe!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 05:25am PT
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I hadn't thought of the plume model as the dominant model. But then I'm not in the field.
Plumes are just part of the model -- the whole cartoon of how plate tectonics works, as drawn in countless textbooks, is now said to be wrong. The cartoon shows rising material that forces plates apart at spreading centers, then pushes them horizontally from behind. At the far side they subduct still going forward, and now angling downward beneath another plate.
The new paradigm instead argues from many lines of evidence (and lack of evidence for the above) that plate motions are driven not by warmth rising from below, but by crust cooling above, and sinking more or less in place. The hinge rolls back, *pulling* the overriding plate forward which causes extension (spreading) behind. If that all sounds speculative (because we're so used to the standard model), it's worth reading some of the very detailed papers.
Most of what I knew about this debate came from Anderson and Natland, "A brief history of the plume hypothesis and its competitors" (2005):
Fine place to start.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 05:38am PT
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Good to see that Warren Hamilton is still alive and kicking
Still kicking indeed.
The abstract below is from a paper published in Tectonophysics (2013) -- emphasis added. I'll say more about this one later. In the meantime he's working on something more ambitious.
Evolution of the Archean Mohorovicic discontinuity from a synaccretionary 4.5 Ga protocrust
This review evaluates and rejects the currently dominant dogmas of geodynamics and geochemistry, which are based on 1950s–1970s assumptions of a slowly differentiating Earth. Evidence is presented for evolution of mantle, crust, and early Moho that began with fractionation of most crustal components, synchronously with planetary accretion, into mafic protocrust by ~ 4.5 Ga. We know little about Hadean crustal geology (> 3.9 Ga) except that felsic rocks were then forming, but analogy with Venus, and dating from the Moon, indicate great shallow disruption by large and small impact structures, including huge fractionated impact-melt constructs, throughout that era.
The mantle sample and Archean (< 3.9 Ga) crustal geology integrate well. The shallow mantle was extremely depleted by early removal of thick mafic protocrust, which was the primary source of the tonalite, trondhjemite, and granodiorite (TTG) that dominate preserved Archean crust to its base, and of the thick mafic volcanic rocks erupted on that crust. Lower TTG crust, kept mobile by its high radioactivity and by insulating upper crust, rose diapirically into the upper crust as dense volcanic rocks sagged synformally. The mobile lower crust simultaneously flowed laterally to maintain subhorizontal base and surface, and dragged overlying brittler granite-and-greenstone upper crust. Petrologically required garnet-rich residual protocrust incrementally delaminated, sank through low-density high-mantle magnesian dunite, and progressively re-enriched upper mantle, mostly metasomatically. Archean and earliest Proterozoic craton stabilization and development of final Mohos followed regionally complete early delamination of residual protocrust, variously between ~ 2.9 and 2.2 Ga. Where some protocrust remained, Proterozoic basins, filled thickly by sedimentary and volcanic rocks, developed on Archean crust, beneath which delamination of later residual protocrust continued top-down enrichment of upper mantle. That reenrichment enabled modern-style plate tectonics after ~ 600 Ma, with a transition regime beginning ~ 850 Ma.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 11, 2014 - 06:13am PT
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This new theory is full of cracks.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 06:52am PT
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Chiloe: just read the Anderson & Natland paper. The high resolution 3D Vs tomography supports large-scale, mushroom-like thermal anomalies beneath spreading ridges & "hot spots" rather than narrow, sheet- or pipe-like features.
Yes, and these features form at relatively shallow depths, not floating up from deep mantle. Foulger has noted they also are found below some places (e.g. Hudson Bay) with no spreading or magmatism, so there is something besides the presence of hot material that determines whether it erupts -- i.e., surface weakness. (Hence her preference for the term "melt anomalies" instead of "hotsports.")
Still not sure how this model explains kimberlite pipes, diamonds, perovskite, etc. I guess kimberlite pipes are associated with continental interiors; whereas, this paper is dealing with the mantle beneath oceanic crust.
No, the ideas apply to continents and oceans both. Where do you see a contradiction with kimberlite? My understanding is it forms well above the 660km discontinuity (150 to 450?), or as in your diagrams upthread. Regarding perovskite, the Hirose paper you cited earlier seems consistent with descriptions in new-paradigm papers of its phase transition around 660km.
A great place to join the conversation among geologists seems to be at http://www.mantleplumes.org/ which is currently claiming contributions from 684 scientists. That's Don Anderson on their front page.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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I'm only half a dozen papers into this field but I think it's a glaring omission to not mention a mechanism for the break-up of Pangea or Gondwanaland, in discussing magma sources for hot-spots.
Have you checked out the Tectonophysics paper mentioned above? It's all about the startup of plate tectonics, and what happened before that.
It's fine to offer up some "observation" that mantle plumes might be shallow sourced, but using seismic tomography as the major evidence is pretty weak.
It's been mostly the other way around -- seismic observations used to demonstrate the existence of mantle plumes. Gillian Foulger has dissected that "evidence" case by case. What AN14 seems to be adding is newer, more detailed seismic evidence that points in the opposite direction, and agrees with Foulger (and others') doubts about previous work such as the Wolfe article in Science.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 11, 2014 - 09:25am PT
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The new paradigm instead argues from many lines of evidence (and lack of evidence for the above) that plate motions are driven not by warmth rising from below, but by crust cooling above, and sinking more or less in place.
Slab pull, rather than ridge push, as the dominant mechanism for modern plate motions is a new idea? Seems like this idea has been around since at least the 1970s. The focus is mainly on volcanics associated with oceanic crustal/mantle processes. What do the anti-plumers say about volcanism associated with island and magmatic arcs? I don't really see anything all that revolutionary or paradigm-shifting here.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 10:44am PT
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I'll post more on this later, but ... it's true some of the ideas have been around for a while, but the synthesis is still emerging and runs very much against the ruling orthodoxy. As for example represented by this cartoon explaining plate tectonics from Wikipedia, and hundreds more like it in many intro texts, video presentations, computer and fluid-tank modeling papers, etc. etc.
It is generally accepted that tectonic plates are able to move because of the relative density of oceanic lithosphere and the relative weakness of the asthenosphere. Dissipation of heat from the mantle is acknowledged to be the original source of the energy required to drive plate tectonics through convection or large scale upwelling and doming.
The contrarians view cartoons like this and the bottom-up drive for tectonics as myths, and are cranky that they remain so widely repeated even in the top journals when they've been falsified in so many ways.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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Well, two of the biggest are horizontal motion by the sinking slabs, and a bottom-up driver making them move.
The alternative view (I'll look for a contrarian cartoon) would emphasize vertical (sinking) motion by the slab, with hinge rollback toward the plate interior. This forces interior mantle material up to cause doming and extension back from the edge. The overriding plate is pulled forward as the subducting one sinks, to fill the vacuum so to speak.
All driven top-down by cooling/sinking, not bottom-up by upwelling.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 10:53am PT
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There's no controversy about that. The question is, what's making things move?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:08am PT
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Dingus, here's one discussion of the evidence (with cartoons! and maps) regarding Emperor/Hawaii, the archetype for all plume/hotspot theories. I don't think the alternative explanation the author (JM Fischer) championed elsewhere holds water, but his critique of the classical hotspot view of Hawaii -- which every geo students learns as truth -- hits some of the main problems. Given how much we know about Pacific Rim geology, it's physically not possible.
Hawaii, we thought we knew you
The classic Plate Tectonics story for Hawaii now appears to be mistaken. The Pacific plate did not suddenly change directions, and there is no deep, stationary plume. Other explanations fit the evidence better.
The original idea
In 1963 Wilson suggested that the Hawaiian Islands formed as the Pacific plate moved over continuously upwelling hot mantle. In 1968 Christofferson conjectured that the Emperor-Hawaii elbow records a change in direction of the Pacific plate over a fixed "hotspot". In 1971 Morgan speculated that the heat source is a stationary "plume" rising vertically through the deep mantle, and this has been widely accepted.6
Challenging the original idea
"Simple tests falsify conjecture that the...Emperor-Hawaii system formed above a stationary plume. As this is the only testable purported plume, global speculation favoring fixed plumes falls with it."6
1) Pacific plate motion - no rapid change in direction
The concept requires "an enormous reorganization of Pacific Ocean plates 45 million years ago."6 This is not found anywhere "along the northeast, east, or south sides of the Pacific plate," where crust of that age is preserved.6 "The Pacific-Antarctic Ridge is the key link... tying the relative motion of the oceanic plates of the Pacific basin to the rest of the world."2 A survey of the Pitman Fracture Zone along this ridge was carried out in 1992. The authors concluded that "predictions of the track of the Hawaiian hot spot based on global reconstructions fail, once again, to predict a large bend around 43 million years ago."2 Next, "the Gilbert Ridge and Tokelau Seamounts are the only seamount trails in the Pacific Ocean with a sharp 60° bend, similar to the HEB." "The Louisville seamount trail is not useful... because it shows only a very broad curvature at its bend." Their study found that the Gilbert Ridge bend formed around 67 million years ago, while the Tokelau bend formed about 57 million years ago. They should have formed at the same time as the HEB, around 47 million years ago, "if they were formed by stationary hot spots, and assuming Pacific plate motion only." "Such asynchronous bends cannot be reconciled with the stationary hot spot paradigm."9 In addition, "improved mapping of marine magnetic anomalies in the Pacific has failed to define the directional change at 43 million years ago." "There was also a general lack of circ#m-Pacific tectonic events documented for this time. Recent age data suggest a slightly older age for the bend, about 47 million years ago, but this revised timing still does not correspond to an episode of profound plate motion change recorded within the Pacific basin or on its margins."15 "The textbook explanation for intraplate volcanism by fixed hot spots is either entirely wrong or insufficient to explain these phenomena."9 The most recent study of volcanoes of the central and southern Emperor chain claims that the Hawaii-Emperor Bend started at 50 million years ago.12 This is still far off of the 57 and 67 million years ago that are designated for the Gilbert Ridge and Tokelau Seamounts, and does not lessen the misfit between the predicted track of the Hawaiian hotspot, using magnetic anomalies at the Pitman Fracture Zone, and the actual island chain (below).
There's more at the source. This is old (ca. 2006) and not definitive, but should give you a sense of the problems.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:10am PT
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But you just said it wasn't moving?
The sinking slab, not so much. It would be plowing through an awful lot of resistance! But behind and ahead of that, for different reasons we get spreading/extension.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:17am PT
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Here's a more developed GSA paper from 2007 that you could sink your teeth into. Not paywalled.
Driving mechanism and 3-D circulation of plate tectonics
A conceptual shift is overdue in geodynamics. Popular models that present plate tectonics as being driven by bottom-heated whole-mantle convection, with or without plumes, are based on obsolete assumptions, are contradicted by much evidence, and fail to account for observed plate interactions. Subduction-hinge rollback is the key to viable mechanisms. The Pacific spreads rapidly yet shrinks by rollback, whereas the subduction-free Atlantic widens by slow mid-ocean spreading. These and other first- order features of global tectonics cannot be explained by conventional models. The behavior of arcs and the common presence of forearc basins on the uncrumpled thin leading edges of advancing arcs and continents are among features indicating that subduction provides the primary drive for both upper and lower plates. Subduction rights the density inversion that is produced when asthenosphere is cooled to oceanic lithosphere: plate tectonics is driven by top-down cooling but is enabled by heat. Slabs sink more steeply than they dip and, if old and dense, are plated down on the 660 km discontinuity. Broadside-sinking slabs push all sublithosphere oceanic upper mantle inward, forcing rapid spreading in shrinking oceans. Down-plated slabs are overpassed by advancing arcs and plates, and thus transferred to enlarging oceans and backarc basins. Plate motions make sense in terms of this subduction drive in a global framework in which the ridge-bounded Antarctic plate is fixed: most subduc- tion hinges roll back in that frame, plates move toward subduction zones, and ridges migrate to tap fresh asthenosphere. This self-organizing kinematic system is driven from the top. Slabs probably do not subduct into, nor do plumes rise to the upper mantle from, the sluggish deep mantle.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Sep 11, 2014 - 11:20am PT
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I knew a colleague that had Doctorate from Univ. of Alaska (thesis on blue schist metamorphism) that was totally sold on "The Expanding Earth" theory by the Australian Carey. He gave me a copy of Carey's book published in the 70's.
Pretty clever way to explain alternative reasons for observed phenomena, but doesn't hold much water with our current GPS and interferometry data.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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So if this is the case the mag striping should get closer together as one gets farther from the spreading center, to accommodate the compression? Is this the case? Do you know if anyone has looked into this?
I'm not sure if that follows. The spreading would be not just from distant pulling but also some from upwelling below, except the upwelling (per AN14) is upper mantle that's been displaced or shoved inward by sinking slab.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:31am PT
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I don't understand this rollback reference.
Imagine the plate as a heavy but somewhat flexible slab that starts to sink at one edge. That edge goes deeper and deeper at an angle (until it flattens out at about 660km, apparently) while farther-back parts stay horizontal, so there is a hinge between the two. That hinge rolls back into the interior of the plate, and more sinking occurs at the edge. As the hinge rolls back it pushes mantle into the interior, and also pulls the overriding plate forwards, both of which cause spreading/extension somewhere.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:33am PT
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The authors made the case that the bottom layer of this part of the Sierra simply broke off and sank, and the overlying continental crust was simply unbounded. They claimed to have seismic evidence of this sinking slab.
I haven't seen that particular idea but the neo-paradigm papers mention delamination as part of the process, perhaps that fits in.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
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We can go back to at least 2004 for proof positive that the HEB is not tied to a fixed hot spot.
There has long been proof that the magmatism is not from a fixed spot, but the paper you cite is one of a long string of work-arounds as hotspot conjectures faced falsification. Hotspots are fixed! No, that's impossible. OK, hotspots move!
But think for a minute, if it's thousands of kilometers of hot rock piping up from deep mantle or core, how on Earth does that maintain its hot narrow pipe while waving around freely through cooler denser mantle on all sides?
The simpler alternative proposed in papers I've cited is that it isn't a hotspot at all, rather a propagating weakness.
Cartoons below, and hundreds more like them, show the original model that was shown to be impossible years ago, and yet still rules the textbooks.
Although I could find many images like the above, finding a cartoon of the contrarian view is much harder. They don't seem to have entrained all the artists. Closest I came in a quick search is this Cocos/N America image borrowed from Gillian Foulger's Powerpoint on www.mantleplumes.org.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
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Like a crack across ice, it can turn on a dime.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
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I've seen asteroid impact as a suggestion for the origins of the Yellowstone weak spot. :)
I dunno about Yellowstone, but will come back to this idea from a surprising new angle in about a month.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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The conjecture for these zone of propagating weakness is as tenuous as it is for a long slender magma-pipe from the core/mantle boundary.
No, for one thing that conjecture actually fits all the evidence we have, while a hotspot fits almost nothing beyond first impressions from a map.
Although I am not yet brave enough to jump entirely off the hotspot bandwagon (it has been a good ride for 25 years and besides, if there was ever a hotspot, you would think that it would be Hawaii), I have to admit that the behavior of the hotspot seems unhotspotlike. It apparently zoomed southwest at high speeds, sometimes going fast and sometimes slower, and screeched to a halt at the time of the Hawaiian-Emperor bend. I suspect something is amiss. Either we are being misled by some of the tectonic or age data, or we do not understand how the Hawaiian-Emperor chain formed. Back to Saturday Night Live: What the hell is that? I don’t know what the hell that thing is!
--from William Sager, Insights Into Motions of the Hawaiian Hotspot from Paleomagnetism.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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FM, here's a bibliography of research on cracks & stress mechanisms for intraplate magmatism. It's a pretty long list.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
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OK, I can see you ain't gonna buy it.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
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Not me, I'm delighted to have a place to talk about this stuff, after hearing it all my life.
Will shut up here if it gets tiresome, though.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
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Here is Anderson's Emperor/Hawaii wrapup.
However, a persuasive, alternative model for the Emperor and Hawaiian volcanic chains remains to be fully quantified.
Any satisfactory theory for Hawaiian volcanism must explain (or rationalize) the:
change in migration direction of the melting locus at the bend,
association of the great bend with the Mendocino fracture zone,
change in migration rate at the bend,
apparent commencement of the volcanic chain near a ridge,
absence of a “plume head”,
large variations in magmatic production, and a current magmatic rate about 3 times greater than the next most productive hotspots,
absence of a significant heat flow anomaly,
absence of lithospheric thinning,
absence of a strong high-temperature signal in the erupted basalts,
production of very large volumes of magma even though the depth to the top of the melting column is exceptionally large compared with MORs,
spatial and temporal variation in the composition of erupted lavas on a variety of scales,
remote location of Hawaii, near the center of a very large plate,
location of the oldest end of the chain with respect to the “Pacific pocket”,
unique rift zones,
paired Loa and Kea trends,
seismic whole-mantle mantle structure that is apparently normal compared with the Pacific ocean elsewhere, and
occurrence of a bathymetric swell (a moat and “arch”) along the eastern two-thirds of the Hawaiian chain and wrapping around its southeastern end, with alkalic basaltic volcanism occurring at some places along it.
In conclusion, Hawaii is not fully explained by any current hypothesis. It is impressive that a region of the Earth so extensively studied for so many years, by so many Earth scientists with so many techniques could remain so intransigent to full understanding. Many of the numerous features that are not yet fully understood, and the parameters of alternative hypotheses, are not currently being studied, but they offer exciting research opportunities.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
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I don't get the impression, however, that the (academic) geology community is firmly married to the "fixed core/mantle plume" origin for hotspots,
No, some have certainly abandoned that for ad hoc variations as all the predictions turned out to be false. This is what Folger is complaining about when she concludes the plume hypothesis has become "unfalsifiable." People can always think up something new.
Or as Hamilton put it,
Various authorities advocate six plumes about the Earth now, or 5000, or some intermediate quantity. All this and more is merely rationalized from the physics-defying starting assumptions.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 04:32pm PT
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That's funny, TC.
Really I suspect that if any of us consult random experts, they'll assure us Nah, it ain't true. Plumology really is that taken-for-granted and dominant in the field. How many of you first thought of Hawaii as the undisputed proof hotspots are real? Versus how many had heard it had critics, or evidence from every direction that model can't be true?
We'll have to wait a few years, see what happens.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 11, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
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Let's look at the moon. Reportedly the moon initially was very close to the earth, and spinning up at high angular momentum. But it is not a homogeneous body and the center of mass is two km closer to the earth than is its geometric center. So as time went on the moon slowed its rate of rotation and the energy loss was converted to increasing distance from the earth; a presently measured effect. The near side is basaltic maria and lower than the highlands facing space. This would argue we have both thermal and possibly chemical inhomogeneity. Whether correct or not these models provide information of a sort not available for the earth. Lunar volcanoes should be of great interest.
Bottom line, if you want to go to the moon, sooner is better than later.
Correct me as you will.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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Let's look at the moon.
By all means! This thread could definitely go there; I've heard rumors of an Alternative Moon waiting in the wings that's even odder than the Alternative Earth. The ideas are out there in several pieces but a synthesis paper is still in draft form, so we can't cite it yet.
The asymmetry and early closeness that jstan rightly notes are constraints that any Moon model must fit. We could add some others like the almost circular and ecliptic present orbit, similarities in composition and yet low bulk density.
The near side is basaltic maria and lower than the highlands facing space.
A frozen tidal bulge? I think that's one current theory.
Lunar volcanoes should be of great interest.
Yes ... if they exist. The orthodox belief is they do.
Bottom line, if you want to go to the moon, sooner is better than later.
I'm all for that. The country lost its resolve for such big undertakings in the past 40 years, and seems heading for more disarray in the future. It is cool what we're seeing through robot eyes though. This fall's attempted comet landing, and next summer's Pluto flyby, culminate two huge-distance trips into the unknown.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
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Definitely Venus is on the tour Dingus, and that new vs old surface question is the centerpiece.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 12, 2014 - 12:50am PT
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Back in the 1970s AE Ringwood proposed that the sinking slab in subduction zones undergoes a phase transition from basalt to eologite which is denser than the surrounding material and sinks deeply into the mantle.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 12, 2014 - 04:11am PT
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Fascinating stuff; both the OP presentation and the ancillary discussions generated. Thanks for bringing this up!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 08:11am PT
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I mentioned there's a notable "cartoon gap" between orthodox and heterodox tectonic camps, the former have far more artists and textbook developers entrained. So this thread has not been very colorful so far. Published articles have plenty of graphics but those tend to be pdf format and often black and white, so it's not just grab-and-paste for me to bring them here.
Here's one orienting image, though, from an older paper, An Alternative Earth (GSA Today 2003 -- the link goes to the pdf file, not paywalled). The caption describes some dynamics: Pacific shrinking by hinge rollback, but with internal spreading as upper mantle is pushed back. The orange "age" bands correspond to when the Emperor/Hawaii chain (faintly visible in the green area at top center) changed direction about 45 million years ago, so we see that this bend *could not* have resulted from a change in Pacific plate direction, hence that can't really be a fixed hotspot as so many textbooks proclaim (and see illustrations that I posted upthread).
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 08:19am PT
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Here's another illustration from An Alternative Earth. Note the vertical sinking (pulled by gravity) of the slab's leading edge, which displaces upper mantle to the left as it sinks, and pulls in the overriding plate to the right (causing different kinds of extension stress in both directions).
In contrast, the standard model -- see the forward motion of the slab's leading edge, presumed to be pushed by upwelling somewhere behind. And of course there's that fixed hotspot again.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Sep 12, 2014 - 08:30am PT
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Tradster, thanks I was wondering about the density change that would allow that slab to sink. Does he propose some kind of greenschist phase metamorphism at the boundary that permeates through the slab before full scale melting takes place? Trying to get my head around the change in mineral assemblages and the proper pressure and temperature regimes, as well as time frame, needed to make that happen.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 08:37am PT
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Yet another trouble is that if you imagine the hotspots are fixed with respect to the mantle, they should be fixed relative to each other too -- and that just doesn't work.
Nothing seems to be really "fixed" but you need a reference frame to even talk about this issue. An alternative possibility is to view Antarctica as "fixed" which makes at least some sense because it is ringed by spreading ridges. And if we switch to an Antarctic-fixed reference framework the other plates' relative motions meet predictions from the alternative tectonic model.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 12, 2014 - 08:49am PT
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sorry im late to the party...
Chileo - the Hawaiian theory distills down to the very old oceanic crust peeling away in a semi-circular fashion? Tearing open the crust at multiple points allowing for adiabatic melt to occur? Would then the yellowstone hotspot be the result of frequent if not constant, in the geologic sense, disruption and heating of the continental crust. the subsequent heating, and explosive eruptions from the silicic magma would result in a weaker/thinner crust near the hot spot perpetuating the adiabatic process?
super fun topic thanks for bring up!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 09:25am PT
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Grippa, glad you're enjoying this. I want to keep emphasizing that I don't hold the answers but am channeling smarter people, in the sense that I've been following their discussions for a while.
Regarding Yellowstone, that has conventionally been cited as another fixed, deep-mantle hotspot manifestation like Hawaii. But also like Hawaii, this theory falls apart when viewed closely, and evidence points to shallow origins instead. Foulger has a detailed web page about Yellowstone with maps, diagrams and links.
Tomography reveals a low-wave-speed body beneath Yellowstone that does not extend deeper than ~ 200 km (Figure 3) [Christiansen et al., 2002]. At these depths, bodies greater than ~ 70 km in size horizontally, with anomalies stronger than ~ –1%, can be resolved. Beneath the ESRP a similar structure is detected, that is flanked by high-wave-speed bodies up to 200 km wide to the northwest and southeast. This is not what is predicted if the ESRP and flanking topographic swell represent a trailing plume head [Humphreys et al., 2000].
Whole-mantle tomography shows that Yellowstone lies at a profound lithospheric structural discontinuity where the Basin-& Range region to the southwest abuts the North American craton to the northeast. There is no significant low-wave-speed anomaly either in the lower mantle or the lower part of the upper mantle. In fact, wave-speeds are anomalously high in the lower half of the upper mantle.
Or here's a shorter explanation of how we know Yellowstone is not a mantle plume, from Hamilton's GSA 2007 paper Driving mechanism and 3-D circulation of plate tectonics (pdf, not paywalled).
The east-northeastward progression of late Neogene volcanic centers in the eastern Snake River Plain and Yellowstone region is an anchor for advocates of fixed plumes. Nevertheless, the thermal anomalies, as constrained by high-resolution tomography, are confined to the upper mantle (Humphreys et al., 2000). Plume proponents Waite et al. (2006) made a detailed tomographic study with local seismic arrays and also found no evidence for low velocities deeper than 400 km. A series of magmatic centers that progress west-northwestward into Oregon from the same origin during the same period, and that display a more regular time-distance progression, commonly is ignored by plume proponents because it does not “fit,” although plume advocate Jordan (2005) speculated that the aberrant trend formed by long-distance squirting from the fixed Yellowstone plume.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 10:02am PT
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I suspect this supercontinent cycle is in need of a fresh paint job?
Arguably there is no clear evidence that plate tectonics operated at all, before about 1 Ga or even 650 Ma. Some rocks that were thought to represent such are very unlike modern counterparts and could be explained by other processes. For back story on this contrarian view see the Tectonophysics paper here.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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Well, the complaint goes the other way too -- much of the modeling work to date has been unphysical, not constrained by observational geology. People get an idea of what they want the model to do, like blow thin plumes up from deep mantle, then figure out what assumptions they need to make that happen.
It gets stranger with other planets, more about that later.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 12, 2014 - 10:51am PT
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Here's another paper to throw into the mix. I hope to read it and the W Hamilton paper posted above as time permits.
Some questions to ponder...
Do Top down or Bottom up processes drive plate motion & volcanism?
Does the sinking slab penetrate into the lower mantle (deeper than 660 km)?
How much melt really exists in LIPs (large igneous provinces)?
What is the spatial resolution of deep seismic tomography?
The Eclogite Engine: Chemical geodynamics as a Galileo Thermometer
Don L Anderson
http://www.mantleplumes.org/P%5E4/P%5E4Chapters/AndersonP4AcceptedMS.pdf
Because these questions are so multi-disciplinary and about deep, inaccessible regions of the planet, they will be hotly (no pun intended) debated as long as there are earth scientists around to debate them. There is no simple right or wrong answer to these questions...
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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Thanks, tt. And I noticed this followup (not paywalled) to your Anderson chapter, in which he responds to a critic. In the quote below, I've bolded one part that indirectly refers to a problem with over-simplified models. The statements about blobs have abundant seismic evidence, we can see those things.
Much of the upper mantle is cooled from below, by bottomed out slabs, and cooled from within, by delaminating blobs. These blobs are colder than ambient mantle but hotter than slabs; they may contain most of the radioactivity of the upper mantle. They are constantly sinking and rising, delivering heat to the surface. The temperature of the surrounding mantle is buffered by the melting temperatures of the low-melting constituents as well as by the near-constant temperature of the lower continental crust. A partially molten asthenosphere, or one with partially molted blobs, cannot be treated as a homogeneous subsolidus ideal fluid; melting anomalies have other causes than high absolute temperature.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
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FM, in that first paper you cite I think we're seeing the other side of the 2 Earth views that Anderson talks about.
no more need to invoke comets as primary sources for earth's water!
But incidentally in both Anderson and Korenaga we see reference to planetary analogues, which are interpreted differently but inform everyone's thinking. That's why it should be fun to take this thread there too.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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...but only as an end member, chiefly to pin down what "tectonically dead" looks like.
There's an opposite view that is dominant among planetologists, actually. And an opposite to that opposite, it gets surprising.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
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Did you see The Europa Report (free on Netflix)? Fiction but cool.
I watched a slightly less fictional documentary last night that toured planets and moons. Resurfacing of various kinds on Io, Europa, Triton and some others. But most dramatic sight is Miranda which looks like it was blasted to pieces, then glommed randomly back together by gravity.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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I hadn't heard the name Verona Rupes but did notice that huge notch at the bottom of my global Miranda pic, thanks Op.
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perswig
climber
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Sep 13, 2014 - 05:05am PT
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Planetology... a field populated by earth scientists who said, "Fukkit, this is too hard."
Made me laugh!
Bump for some light reading ideas and ST getting its geek on.
Dale (understanding mebee every 12th word, but fascinated nonetheless)
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
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Should be interesting ... session planned for meetings of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco this December (emphasis added):
Theory of Earth
Session ID#: 3924
Over the last 50 years, our understanding of the interior of Earth has advanced tremendously, yielding theories for its origin, evolution, internal structure, composition, and dynamics. Most powerful are interdisciplinary approaches that include physics, geophysics, energetics, thermodynamics, geochemistry, petrology, mineralogy, mantle dynamics, and volcanology. Nevertheless, persistent enigmas and paradoxes testify that major challenges still remain. We invite contributions that focus on interdisciplinary work to reveal the structure and dynamics of the interior of Earth, and links to surface manifestations. Observational, experimental and theoretical studies, along with historical reviews, are encouraged. We welcome in particular contributions that are provocative, radical, Devil’s Advocate, even outrageous, and have the potential to significantly advance our current understanding.
Co-Sponsor(s):
DI - Study of the Earth's Deep Interior
T - Tectonophysics
V - Volcanology, Geochemistry and Petrology
Index Terms:
8125 Evolution of the Earth [TECTONOPHYSICS]
8147 Planetary interiors [TECTONOPHYSICS]
8149 Planetary tectonics [TECTONOPHYSICS]
8180 Tomography [TECTONOPHYSICS]
Primary Convener: Don L Anderson, Caltech-Seismological Lab, Pasadena, CA, United States; Seismological Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, United States
Co-conveners: Jay Bass, University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, Department of Geology, Urbana, IL, United States, Gillian R Foulger, University of Durham, Department of Earth Sciences, Durham, DH1, United Kingdom and James H Natland, University of Miami, Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, Miami, FL, United States
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 16, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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Fook it's hot! I know we're gonna have an earthquake!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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anyone here attending agu?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
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I'm likely to go to AGU.
I'd be posting new material to this thread, have a bunch of it stacked up, but I'm at other meetings this week without much spare time.
Had breakfast with the fellow who named the Transantarctic Mountains. Many of us on ST have named routes or walls, but it's something else to name a 3,500 kilometer mountain range.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
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Interesting models; the question is are they real? For instance, note rhat in all of those images the "spreading continent" (green) has a leading edge that curls under at contact with the subducting plate, as of course it should be given these assumptions. But where real continents override subducting plates as in the eastern Pacific,the leading edge of the overriding plate (submarine) is typically *not* crumpled as this model requires. In some locations that leading edge has deep undisturbed sediments, incompatible with images of the overriding plate literally riding over another plate but better explained if the overriding plate is sliding into a gap as the subducting plate sinks.
The trick is to find theories that fit all of the observations, this one may fit just a few. I heard an explanation today that links the Sierra to Gulf of Mexico oil.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2014 - 07:52am PT
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So let's go back one last time to Hawaii. The Emperor/Hawaii chain is a series of progressively younger volcanic islands or seamounts, the inspiration for the "hotspot" concept of narrow plumes from a fixed deep mantle location, erupting at the surface as plates move overhead. This model has proven to be wrong in every respect, and yet appears in most textbooks, inspires much research, and became the ideal type for other, less clearly defined "hotspots" claimed all over the world.
From Wikipedia,
The Hawaii hotspot is a volcanic hotspot located near the namesake Hawaiian Islands, in the northern Pacific Ocean. One of the most well-known and heavily studied hotspots in the world,[1][2] the Hawaii plume is responsible for the creation of the Hawaiian – Emperor seamount chain, an over 5,800 kilometres (3,600 mi) long chain of volcanoes, four of which are active, two of which are dormant, and more than 123 of which are extinct, many having since been ground beneath the waves by erosion as seamounts and atolls. The chain extends from south of the island of Hawaiʻi to the edge of the Aleutian Trench, near the eastern edge of Russia. While most volcanoes are created by geological activity at tectonic plate boundaries, the Hawaii hotspot is located far from nearby plate boundaries; the classic hotspot theory, first proposed in 1963 by John Tuzo Wilson, proposes that a single, fixed mantle plume builds volcanoes that then, cut off from their source by the movement of the Pacific Plate, become increasingly inactive and eventually erode below sea level over millions of years. According to this theory, the nearly 60° bend separating the Emperor and Hawaiian segments of the chain was caused by a sudden shift in the movement of the Pacific Plate. In 2003, fresh investigations of this irregularity led to the proposal of a mobile hotspot theory, suggesting that hotspots are mobile, not fixed, and that the 47 million year old bend was caused by a shift in the hotspot's motion rather than the plate's.
The idea that the hotspot pipe, and not just the plates, might be moving around (blowing in "mantle winds"?) was a bandaid correction applied later to work around the first and most obvious disproof, but there have been many other reality failures as well. For example, a deep source implies that the lava erupted along the chain should be compositionally similar, but even the adjacent Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa rocks are compositionally distinct. A bandaid for that one involves multiple hotspot pipes from distant mantle origins that angle sideways and happen to erupt at almost the same place. But a simpler explanation is just that they each have shallow origins, where composition is already known to be distinct.
And note that the cartoon still shows one straight fixed narrow pipe from the deep mantle. And Wikipedia's caption for this cartoon says,
A diagram demonstrating the migration of the Earth's crust over the hotspot
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2014 - 08:39am PT
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Foulger and Anderson have a more detailed, point-by-point takedown of evidence regarding the Hawaii/hotspot paradigm. Worth reading in its entirety for the 'ologists here or others interested in seeing how strong the evidence against a theory can be, and yet that theory still retains dominance in the field.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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So if it's not the plumologists' hotspot, what is the Emperor/Hawaii chain? Its origin in the triple plate junction marking the west end of the Aleutian Trench, instead of being just a plumological coincidence, becomes the centerpiece for a non-plumological understanding, as Ian Norton works it out.
Beneath the insulating lid of the upper crust, rocks of the lower crust are quite hot. An eruption from this region does not require added heat from below, but simply the release of pressure from above. In simple terms, the Emperor/Hawaii chain most plausibly represents not a deep-rooted hotspot either fixed or madly blowing in mantle winds. Instead it appears to be a series of shallow eruptions tracking a pull-apart weakness or crack, propagating from a triple junction where the subducting Pacific plate is pulled in two different directions.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2014 - 10:18am PT
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Well, we already know for sure that the Pacific Plate did not change direction to create the Emperor/Hawaii elbow, even though textbooks still say it did -- and authorities still cite this as the defining example for hotspots worldwide. The plate's realitive motions are well constrained by geology on all sides, as in the overview map below. The Emperor/Hawaii 60-degree change in direction happened 45 million years ago, contemporary with the orange bands dated paleomagnetically at the spreading ridges in the map below. The Pacific Plate obviously did not shift direction at that time.
A propagating weakness (imagine tearing a sheet of paper by pulling it apart?) might change direction more easily, and the character of the triple junction also has changed over time. Norton focuses mainly on how the crack started (85 Ma), just speculating briefly on why it changed direction (45 Ma) -- I gather that event is not well explained.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 05:36am PT
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It'll get stranger when we leave Earth, and *really* heterodox at the last planet on this tour. I'll still try to keep it real, though, and in some respects the evidence there is more visible -- we can all be armchair planetologists, if folks stay curious.
By all means do argue when things sound wrong. Skepticism is warranted (even better if it looks both directions). There should be skepticism at Anderson's AGU session this fall. What's the province of his quote above?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 08:09am PT
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Chemical plumes in the mantle
DON L. ANDERSON
Dude, that's 1975!
:-)
I recently discovered and began reading the first volume (top left) of Henry Frankel's epic history of the continental drift controversy.
Some of the names and tales are familiar to me from childhood, when these topics were dinner-table conversation at our house. Anyway Frankel does an excellent, exhaustively researched job of it, tracing the development of ideas from Wegener through plate tectonics. And also the fierce resistance those new ideas met, including efforts at delay and suppression, as they challenged the life's work of earlier geologists. Frankel likens the drift/tectonics revolution to the Darwinian revolution in biology.
One connection between the continental drift controversy and the newer stories I'm telling here is that some of the same scientists are involved. Another is that the drift-era pattern of orthodox resistance is being repeated now against top-down (instead of hotspot/plume bottom-up) concepts in tectonics. But more on that later.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 22, 2014 - 08:28am PT
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I saw this in a news story when on vacation. It is very exciting, considering that plate tectonics seemed so complete.
I have a lot of reading to do now...
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 08:30am PT
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Glad you showed up here, Base, hope it will be a fun ride.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 08:44am PT
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Are plate movements driven mainly by cooling and sinking from above? Or by hot mantle rising from below? Does buoyant material come mainly from the deep mantle, or from shallower sources -- above the 660 km discontinuity, or even from the lower crust? Do deep-mantle hotspots or plumes exist at all? Those seem to be major points of division.
In cartoon vision, do we picture the North American plate being pushed from thousands of miles away by mid-Atlantic spreading so that it overrides the Pacific? Or is the Pacific edge cooling and sinking, pulling the N America plate west and more distantly causing spread in mid-Atlantic?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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But I can't believe there are tensile stresses adjacent to subduction zones. You have proof of otherwise?
You can't believe there are, or are not? Seems obvious there are many kinds of stress associated with these zones.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 11:24am PT
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I'm happy to keep discussing Earth but it could also be interesting to branch outwards, "To Infinity and Beyond." Or at least, to the terrestrial planets.
These are the rocky worlds of Mercury, Venus, Earth/Moon and Mars/Phobos. The image shows them approximately to scale. One takeaway is that Venus is just a bit smaller than Earth, whereas Mars is tiny. All those sci-fi films we’ve seen depicting Earthlike gravity on Mars: Not True.
The terrestrial planets have some relevance to orthodoxy and revolution in plate tectonics.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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The Moon’s surface is basically saturated with impact craters, meaning you could not create a new crater without obliterating older ones. Dating of rock samples returned by the Apollo missions suggests that most of the bombardment happened early in lunar history, between about 4.5 and 3.8 billion years ago. Similar or larger bombardment must have happened on Earth, but the evidence has been recycled by tectonics. Lunar dating provides our best constraint on the bombardment phase of planetary accretion.
Close to the Sun, Mercury evolved differently but its surface too is saturated with craters, probably reflecting a similar history of ancient (~3.8 Ga and before) bombardment.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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Unlike the Moon or Mercury, Mars has an atmosphere and once lots of water. The surface shows much evidence of water erosion from vanished sources, and ongoing reshaping by wind. Where a less weathered or sedimented surface shows through, it too appears saturated by ancient impacts. When Mariner 4 returned the first closeup photos of Mars (1965), scientists were disappointed to see it looked so much like the Moon.
Rocky planetoids we have visited seem to be variations on this ancient impact-dominated theme. Jupiter’s moon Callisto:
Saturn’s moon Mimas:
But Earth is different. Because we have tectonics.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Sep 22, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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Hot the phone, the ink's not dry.
I'm trying to wrap what's left of my head around this.
I'm a Neogene continental stratigrapher - or at least I was one until I found out there's more money to be made in the private sector.
Am I reading this thread correctly? (it's taken a few days)
Are hot spot's dead? It that correct?
(As a sidebar - and if this is true - I'm actually more interested in how scientific method can be corrupted into groupthink science like this. Or is that a philosophic titwillow that's beyond the grasp of my grey matter.)
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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Are hot spot's dead? It that correct?
Some geologists think so, and I'm channeling their alternative vision. By far the dominant view is still that hotspots do exist, although predictions from this theory have failed one after another. Alternative simpler explanations have been proposed instead -- see Hawaii discussion above, for example; or Yellowstone, Iceland etc. papers on the mantleplumes.org website.
(As a sidebar - and if this is true - I'm actually more interested in how scientific method can be corrupted into groupthink science like this. Or is that a philosophic titwillow that's beyond the grasp of my grey matter.)
That's what I was suggesting by introducing Frankel's Continental Drift Controversy books upthread. And may get back to, if this thread lasts long enough. I could eventually cite a new publication (currently in review) that uses the term "groupthink," after defining it for geologists.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 12:57pm PT
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What about Venus? That gets complicated. A thick atmosphere hides surface details from telescope or satellite eyes. In visible light we only see clouds.
So the Magellan spacecraft orbiting Venus from 1990 to 1994 mapped the surface by radar, looking through the clouds. The result (false color below) looks different from the obviously crater-saturated surfaces of other rocky planets (except Earth). What accounts for that difference?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Sep 22, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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Venus, huh? Didn't the entire surface recycle catastrophically? I don't see craters - it must have. There's no reason for it not to have.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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Seeing the Venus radar imagery (above) for the first time, you might notice a lot of roughly circular features at different scales, much like the ancient cratered surfaces of all other rocky planets and planetoids (except Earth). But on Venus these circular features look somehow distorted. Distorted by what? That line of inquiry, obvious though it might seem, is the path not taken, by mainstream Venusian planetology.
Instead, Venusian planetologists decided these distorted circles aren't craters from external bombardment, but much younger features from the planet's internal processes. That is: hotspots and plumes, but ones much more numerous, larger and circular than any ever imagined on Earth.
There are no Venusian plate tectonics, that much is clear. But there are things that must be volcanoes! Here's the best known image, drawn by NASA and shown wherever Venusian geology gets discussed.
Sure looks like Mt. Ranier, doesn’t it? That thing is Maat Mons, widely described as “the tallest volcano on Venus.” It rises about 5 km above the surrounding plains, and is more than 700 km across.
But wait, 5 x 700? That’s less than a 2% average slope. Fine print tells us this famous Maat Mons picture involves vertical exaggeration by a factor of 22.5. We can invert that to see something closer to real ... and no longer like any volcano!
Can we imagine lava flowing down that gentle slope, in a near-circular pattern, for 350 km in each direction from its summit? That is what the "volcano" theory requires.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
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For comparison Hawaii, the largest volcano on Earth, rises about 8 km above its base and is 150 km across, more than a 10% average slope. Hawaii also has multiple craters, rift zones and a complex evolution over time completely unlike the nearly circular, single-caldera Venusian volcanoes. Moreover the location of many earthly volcanoes, such those comprising the Pacific Ring of Fire, clearly follow the outlines of plate tectonics.
Venusian volcanoes thus do not resemble their terrestrial counterparts even slightly in terms of their size, slopes, eruption history or locations. Nevertheless conventional wisdom is just sure they are volcanoes. How to explain their random distribution across the surface? Must be mantle plumes!
These large shields all look much like shield volcanoes on Earth. They are mostly covered by long, radial lava flows. They all have very gentle slopes. And most also have some form of central vent or summit caldera. Thus, we think that these shields formed from basalts, much like the shield volcanoes in Hawaii. The venusian shields, however, show a map pattern which is quite different from that seen on Earth (see reference map). Namely, the shields on Venus are widely scattered, and they show no linear volcano chains like those on Earth. This suggests that Venus does not have active plate tectonics, and also that most volcanism on Venus is related to mantle hotspots.
This could be an obvious thing to reach for if you assume earthly mantle plumes and hotspots are real. Even then, you need to ascribe to Venusian plumes or hotspots many strange qualities not remotely like those hypothesized for earthly counterparts, such as circular upwellings (or downwellings, since we're guessing) many hundreds of kilometers across, with a near-random geographic distribution. And most of the activity happening in a period of "catastrophic resurfacing" some time in the past, but then stopping.
On the other hand if you don't believe in earthly hotspots and mantle plumes, or see no resemblance to the things claimed for Venus, or just wonder why Venusian features need explanations that are unique in the known universe, instead of being variations of what we see on all the other rocky planets -- then the Venusian orthodox view makes no sense.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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I'll bring in more data tomorrow, quitting time today, but not to prolong the suspense:
The alternative theory is that all or most of those quasi-circular features on Venus, at many different scales, are ancient impact sites just as they are on all the other rocky planets. On Venus some of them look different because:
(1) impactors traveled first through a thick atmosphere that could pancake or break many of them up.
(2) many are submarine impacts smashed into long-ago oceans, or water-saturated ground. Outlines are partly smeared or covered by sediments deposited shortly after the impacts and in the billions of years since.
(3) These are not visible-light images but backscatter radar, and the apparent optical meaning is distorted. For example, brightness reflects roughness, not albedo, so dark plains are not rocky lava flows but fine sediments. Appearance is much changed by the incidence angle as well.
I'll come back with evidence from nadir radar altimetry, some visual analysis, and our few on-the-ground (Soviet) photos after the break. The visual analysis includes examples of all intermediate stages between the acknowledged "pristine" impact craters on Venus, and a menagerie of other features that conventional wisdom insists are endogenous.
Look again, see the modified craters? There are thousands of them.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
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So we have two planets Venus. One view is dominant by far not only in textbooks and websites from Wikipedia to NASA, but in hundreds of articles, the main journals, and of course the gatekeepers of peer review.
In simple terms this dominant view holds that Venus is geologically active and has a young surface showing a wide range of huge volcanic and plume-related features like nothing else in the solar system, many of them recording a "catastrophic resurfacing" event driven by unknown forces that ended about 500 million years ago.
A small minority of geoscientists, mostly outside the main journals, argues for an alternative view: the surface is not young but old, mostly 3.8 billion years or more, and most or all all of those strange circular features are not geology unique to Venus but just impact craters same as everywhere else, but on Venus also variably obscured due to submarine impacts, sedimentation and breakup of incoming projectiles in an atmosphere so dense its surface pressure corresponds to 1 km ocean depth on Earth.
I'll argue for the alternative. Here's a brief intro by one of its main proponents (emphasis added). The full paper (not paywalled) is here.
Venusian geologic literature is difficult for outsiders to follow. About 700 of the larger 1000 or so of the old structures that I regard as of impact origin are given mostly unfamiliar designations (the others are ignored): corona, ghost or stealth corona, nova, astra, patera, arachnoid, mons, and volcano, and, because distinctions are arbitrary within the continuum that encloses all of these, diverse “hybrid” combinations. Most of these terms were first applied to express ambiguity as to origins but all are now used with exclusively endogenic connotations. Conjectural endogenic origins are debated in hundreds of published papers (e.g., Herrick et al., 2005, Krassilnikov and Head, 2003, and Stofan and Smrekar, 2005), but none of these speculations account for either circularity or impact-like morphology. Conjectures often are accompanied by rationalizations of gravity and topography in terms of isostasy plus dynamic upwelling or downwelling. As Herrick et al. (2005, p. 11) noted of their own modeling of such conjectures, the assumptions on which it is based are “certainly debatable and largely unconstrained.” Abundance and distribution of the structures are obscured in the literature because a third or so of the visible large old circular structures, and nearly all of the several thousand small old ones, are left, unmentioned, in wastebasket terrains. Hamilton, W.B., 2005, Plumeless Venus preserves an ancient impact-accretionary surface: Geol. Soc. America Spec. Paper 388, p. 781-814.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
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Venus displays thousands of circular structures, typically rimmed depressions, with pristine to variably degraded or buried morphology of types expected for impact origins. The overwhelming consensus among Venusian specialists is that only the 1000 small pristine structures among these record impacts, all others being products of plumes and other hypothetical endogenic processes younger than 1 Ga. This consensus is based on a chain of questionable conjectures regarding planetary evolution, rather than on analysis of structures.
Well, let's take a look at some of that structure analysis, so you can make up your own mind. In the matched image pair below (from An Alternative Venus), the top image shows backscatter radar -- higher resolution but distorted compared with visible light. The lower image shows the same landscape by nadir radar altimetry -- low resolution but not distorted, similar to a topographic map. In that map what do you see? "Corona, ghost or stealth corona, nova, astra, patera, arachnoid, mons, and volcano" ... or just some partly buried craters?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Sep 23, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
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I could eventually cite a new publication (currently in review) that uses the term "groupthink," after defining it for geologists.
Oh dear. I hope your author didn't redefine again.
It bad enough George Orwell used it as part of Newspeak and redefined William H. White's original. I can't keep it straight from DoubleThink.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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Nope, it's gonna be straight from Wikipedia, if it gets past the reviewers. That would be ...
Groupthink: A social-psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group, wherein the desire for harmony or conformity results in irrational decision making. Group members minimize conflict by avoiding critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences. Dysfunctional dynamics of the "ingroup" produce an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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We could come back to the groupthink idea later, but first I'll show more of the evidence on Venusian ground. Upon close inspection, one after another of the supposed "Corona, ghost or stealth corona, nova, astra, patera, arachnoid, mons, volcano" (and hybrids thereof) features turn out to have impact constructions, variably covered by sediments. Here are a few more of the many examples in "Plumeless Venus preserves an ancient impact accretionary surface" (not paywalled).
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 08:26am PT
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Our few surface photos of Venus come from Soviet landers. These often show thinly layered, platy rocks that Russian scientists interpreted as wind-deposited sediments, consistent with the "alternative Venus" views above. Conventional American interpretations instead call these lava flows.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 08:33am PT
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A planet is covered in a wool blanket 50 miles thick moving at 300 miles an hour over it's surface, and you think features almost 4 billion years old would have survived that?
Many have survived, yes, but they show signs of erosion, deposition, and overlays by later craters -- the likelihood of which tends to increase with age, giving rise to that menagerie of weirdly named and arbitrarily distinguished feature types that are "found" nowhere else.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 08:37am PT
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The age, however?
A continuum of increasing degradation, burial, and superposition connects the younger and truly pristine young impact structures with the most modified of the ancient structures. Younger craters of the ancient family are superimposed on older ones in impact-definitive cookie-cutter bites and are not deflected as required by endogenic conjectures. Four of the best-preserved of the pre-“pristine” circular structures are huge, with rimcrests 800–2000 km in diameter, and if indeed of impact origin, must have formed, by analogy with lunar dating, no later than 3.8 Ga. Much of the venusian plains is seen in topography to be saturated with overlapping 100–600 km circular structures, almost all of which are disregarded in conventional accounts. Several dozen larger ancient plains basins reach 2500 km in diameter, are themselves saturated with midsize impact structures, and may date back even to 4.4 Ga. "Plumeless Venus preserves an ancient impact accretionary surface"
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 08:38am PT
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I don't know, Chiloe.... given all of the weirdnesses in the solar system:
Oceans of liquid methane
CO2 ice caps
Sulfuric acid volcanoes
Ice-plate tectonics
Walnut-shaped moons
Brown Dwarfs
Rings
Braided Rings!
Giant permanent storms
An ocean 62 miles deep
A volcano 28 miles tall
....the "Venusian mud volcano" probably takes the cake!
In fact, something weirder lies ahead, but probably not for some months.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 08:42am PT
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From the lander closeups, let's jump scale to a hemispheric view, highlighting one huge and strange feature on Venus. What is that thing?
"Plumeless Venus preserves an ancient impact accretionary surface"
This chain of very large young structures is unique on Venus. Superpositions show that the structures become progressively younger southwestward. Nearly simultaneous impacts of fragments of a giant bolide are inferred.
"An Alternative Venus"
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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Plume-induced crustal convection 3D thermomechanical model and implications for the origin of novae and coronae on Venus
Hah, FM you're a modeler at heart. I'm following a guy who spent his life looking at rocks.
There have been attempts recently to revive the impact theory. Vita-Finzi et al. (2005) suggest that many coronae are old, degraded impact craters, noting that the combined crater and corona population fit a log-normal frequency distribution, similar to the crater population of other terrestrial bodies. Hamilton (2005) questiontions the transfer of terrestrial plume theory to Venus, thus favouring an ancient impact origin. If impacts are indeed responsible for coronae, the implications are significant: the surface of Venus could be significantly older than thought and dominated by sediments, rather than volcanism.
However, this origin is still not in favour, because it cannot account for the clustering of coronae in rift zones, which are likely to be some of the youngest areas on Venus (Price et al. 1996), nor does it account for the complexities seen at individual coronae (e.g. Copp et al. 1998)
The paper you cite, by Jurdy & Stoddard, is particularly interesting for reasons we'll reach soon.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 09:20am PT
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Looks like the Plume Invasion has started!
I got no theories about the ice moons, hope they teem with luminescent squid like in The Europa Report.
But I will mention that NASA's Chief Scientist is a longtime Venusian plumologist.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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So how do you suppose, given the surface conditions mentioned by Fortmental, that these ancient impact sites are so well preserved, as compared to earth?
Your list is good but I might re-order a bit. Plate tectonics on Earth does a lot of recycling; none of the oceanic crust is older than about 200 Ma. Continents can get subducted too but less extensively. Water (and ice) erosion work tirelessly to level the continents, wearing uplifted mountain ranges down to their deep roots.
Venus perhaps had oceans once, long ago, and some landforms might reflect ancient shorelines (e.g., terracing within some craters). That water has been gone a long time, though. The surface is hot enough to melt lead, and the atmosphere retains only a tiny fraction of water vapor, about 1/200th as much as Earth. Venus also lacks plate tectonics and (contrary to plumological theory) extensive volcanism, so old impact craters get partly buried in sediment while their blurred outlines survive.
One diagnostic feature for impacts on Venus is the way in which younger craters "print over" older ones, like putting down a cookie cutter in succession. So you see circles overprinted by newer circles. Volcanoes can't do that. If a new one erupts, its lava does not march in a widening circle up the slopes of an older one nearby, and yet that is required for the orthodox claim that such features are volcanic.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
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Wild imagery, what's the source? The lower painting seems to have gone much higher than NASA's 22.5:1 vertical exaggeration I started out with. The Jurdy & Stoddard piece you cited might have hit 160:1, but they didn't have such a cool picture.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
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Here's a harder data point, though: Venus has almost no magnetic field, suggesting little mantle convection and a mostly solid core. Compared with Earth it's a cold place, until you get close to the surface.
Limits on magnetic field strength from Magellan magnetometer data are 0.000015 times Earth's field. Current theories of the formation and evolution of the terrestrial planets do support an Earth scale magnetic dipole (magnetic field) on Venus for perhaps the first billion years or so after formation. During that time, remnant thermal energy from the heat of creation probably drove the Venusian dynamo. After this heat was fully dissipated, there appear to have been no other internal processes with which to generate the convective motion needed to support a global field. Today, the only magnetic field Venus may have comes from the interaction between Venus's upper atmosphere and the solar wind. The interaction causes electric currents to flow in the upper atmosphere which then create a weak magnetic field that streams behind the planet like a comet's tail. http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/venus/V3.html
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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I think I found it, Sapas Mons: 1.5 km high by 400 km across, giving an average slope of less than 1 percent! Compare that with the painting you'll see why no volcano-believer wants to draw them to scale. Or more practically: picture in your mind how plausible it is that lava flowed down a 1% slope at 200 km in each direction, all in *one* eruption event (because the flows have similar age, much unlike Earthly volcanoes such as Hawaii).
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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Couldn't the slope have been greater during eruption? Could the flows simply have been pyroclastics? How about an earth-analog (in reverse): basin and range extensional regime. Hundreds of kilometers of extension along <%1 fault planes....or the Canadian Rockies: mountain building on <%1 gradient faults.
You're reaching, dude. Doesn't Occam's Razor kick in at some point?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
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Anyway ... I've been arguing for a contrarian position that disagrees with most Venusian scientists. Being properly skeptical you non-Venusians are wondering, What are the counterarguments to these views?
A good place to find out is this volume edited by Donna Jurdy and Gillian Foulger, a plumologist and non-plumologist respectively, for the Geological Society of America:
Foulger, G.R. and D.M. Jurdy. 2007. Plates, Plumes and Planetary Processes. Geological Society of America Special Paper 430.
Unfortunately the book itself is paywalled, but you can see from the table of contents that it contains two original papers by leading proponents of both the young-surface and old-surface perspectives on Venus. Non-paywalled versions of those two papers exist, and what makes them even better is these each include commentary by other scientists who disagree with or support what the authors just said. That gives non-Venusian spectators a chance to judge for themselves with the arguments lined up strength to strength.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
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First of these two papers is by Donna M. Jurdy and Paul R. Stoddard
"The coronae of Venus: Impact, plume, or other origin?"
Geological Society of America Special Papers, 2007, 430, p. 859-878, doi:10.1130/2007.2430(40)
Abstract
The surface of Venus hosts hundreds of circular to elongate features, ranging from 60 to 2600 km, and averaging somewhat over 200 km, in diameter. These enigmatic structures have been termed “coronae” and attributed to either tectonovolcanic or impact-related mechanisms. A quantitative analysis of symmetry and topography is applied to coronae and similarly sized craters to evaluate the hypothesized impact origin of these features. Based on the morphology and global distribution of coronae, as well as crater density within and near coronae, we reject the impact origin for most coronae. The high level of modification of craters within coronae supports their tectonic nature. The relatively young Beta-Atla-Themis region has a high coronal concentration, and within this region individual coronae are closely associated with the chas-mata system. Models for coronae as diapirs show evolution through a sequence of stages, starting with uplift, followed by volcanism and development of annuli, and ending with collapse. With the assumption of this model, a classification of coronae is developed based merely on their interior topography. This classification yields corona types corresponding to stages that have a systematic variation of characteristics. We find that younger coronae tend toward being larger, more eccentric, and flatter than older ones, and generally occur at higher geoid and topography levels.
An authors' draft of the Jurdy & Stoddard paper is here, followed by substantial comments written by Hamilton, Vita-Finzi, Howarth, Stofan, Hamilton again, and finally a rejoinder by Jurdy & Stoddard.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
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The second of these two Venus papers, which I've quoted extensively above, is by Warren B. Hamilton
"An alternative Venus"
Geological Society of America Special Papers, 2007, 430, p. 879-911, doi:10.1130/2007.2430(41)
Abstract
Conventional interpretations assign Venus a volcanotectonic surface, younger than 1 Ga, pocked only by 1000 small impact craters. These craters, however, are superimposed on a landscape widely saturated with thousands of older, and variably modified, small to giant circular structures, which typically are rimmed depressions with the morphology expected for impact origins. Conventional analyses assign to a fraction of the most distinct old structures origins by plumes, diapirs, and other endogenic processes, and ignore the rest. The old structures have no analogues, in their venusian consensus endogenic terms, on Earth or elsewhere in the solar system, and are here argued to be of impact origin instead. The 1000 undisputed young “pristine” craters (a misnomer, for more than half of them are substantially modified) share with many of the old structures impact-diagnostic circular rims that enclose basins and that are surrounded by radial aprons of debris-flow ejecta, but conventional analyses explain the impact-compatible morphology of the old structures as coincidental products of endogenic uplifts complicated by magmatism. A continuum of increasing degradation, burial, and superposition connects the younger and truly pristine young impact structures with the most modified of the ancient structures. Younger craters of the ancient family are superimposed on older ones in impact-definitive cookie-cutter bites and are not deflected as required by endogenic conjectures. Four of the best-preserved of the pre-“pristine” circular structures are huge, with rimcrests 800–2000 km in diameter, and if indeed of impact origin, must have formed, by analogy with lunar dating, no later than 3.8 Ga. Much of the venusian plains is seen in topography to be saturated with overlapping 100–600 km circular structures, almost all of which are disregarded in conventional accounts. Several dozen larger ancient plains basins reach 2500 km in diameter, are themselves saturated with midsize impact structures, and may date back even to 4.4 Ga. Giant viscously spread “tessera plateaus” of impact melt also reach 2500 km in diameter; the youngest are little modified and are comparable in age, as calibrated by superimposed “pristine” impact structures, to the least modified of the giant impact basins, but the oldest are greatly modified and bombarded. The broad, low “volcanoes” of Venus formed within some of the larger of the ancient rimmed structures, resemble no modern volcanic complexes on Earth, and may be products of the collapse and spread of impact-fluidized central uplifts. Venusian plains are saturated with impact structures formed as transient-ocean sediments were deposited. The variable burial of, and compaction into, old craters by plains fill is incompatible with the popular contrary inference of flood basalt plains. Early “pristine” craters were formed in water-saturated sediments, subsequent greenhouse desiccation of which produced regional cracking and wrinkling of the plains and superabundant mud volcanoes (“shields”). The minimal internal planetary mobility indicated by this analysis is compatible with geophysical evidence. The history of the surface of Venus resembles that of Mars, not Earth.
An author's draft of the Hamilton paper is here, followed by substantial comments written by McCall, Hamilton, Smrekar & Stofan, and a rejoinder by Hamilton.
I'll pull out a few things I think are highlights from these exchanges, but don't take my word for it -- think skeptically, look them over and take a trip to Venus for yourself.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2014 - 06:56am PT
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Skipping planets for a more visual note ... India's Mars probe Mangalyaan, accomplished with a smaller budget than Gravity, has just sent back its first pictures. These highlight the ancient cratered surface that covers much of Mars. Like the Moon and Venus, Mars lacks a significant magnetic field, which suggests it has a (relatively) cold solid core.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Nov 12, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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http://news.sciencemag.org/earth/2014/11/dark-magma-could-explain-mystery-volcanoes
To test how magma might behave near the core, Goncharov and his colleagues squeezed a sliver of a dark, opaque glass, made from iron and silicate to mimic the composition of deep Earth magmas, between two diamonds to simulate pressures near the core. The team then shined an infrared light through the glass and measured how much light passed through. As the pressure increased, so did the amount of light the glass absorbed, and the team saw a change in the atomic structure of the glass, the researchers report online today in Nature Communications.
Goncharov says that means magmas at high pressures in the lower mantle must be sponging up heat emanating from the core. As these patches of magma around the core get hotter, they start to act as a door for heat to pass into the mantle by convection. The heated mantle rocks then move up through the planet in a massive plume until they erupt on the surface, creating large volcanoes in strange places like Hawaii, Yellowstone, Easter Island, and Mount Etna, and some of the most violent eruptions.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 13, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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This is a cool thread. Can't believe that I missed it.
Plate tectonics never answered every question, but it has been very useful. If you want to hear some bullsh#t, try to find some info on "geosynclinal theory." That was the theory that was replaced by plate tectonics, and it was horribly complicated.
When I took my first stratigraphy class, the excellent professor was taking a sabbatical. So they get this old dinosaur and have him teach it. He taught us geosynclinal theory. In the mid-80's. I should have demanded my money back it was so bad.
There have always been big questions, such as intra-plate mountain ranges which were obviously compressive events. The Rockies are back thrusted to beat hell, and over a thousand miles from any plate boundary during the Laramide Orogeny. What drives these things has always been a shoe waiting to drop for who could figure it out.
I am very specialized. I work difficult stratigraphy and depositional environments. That's it.
And DMT. I am friends with John McPhee's son in law and one of his daughters. I scored two autographed copies of "Annals Of The Former World." One for me, and one for Minerals (Bryan Law).
I might be able to get you one, but McPhee is getting pretty old. Also, when he signs a book, he writes a nice paragraph to you, so you would have to let me know what your real name is...... :)
Scientific Revolutions are cool. I need to take a few days to read this stuff. Too busy to do anything but skim over it right now.
Plate tectonics is an observable phenomenon. What drives it has always been the question. I've spent my life studying late Paleozoic rocks, so regrettably have pigeon holed myself apart from a lot of geology.
I have a buddy of mine who is a structural geologist. Whenever we hang out he is always pulling out some old seismic and waving his arms about how the Wichita-Amarillo uplift has been mis-interpreted. Then sure enough, I read a paper about it last month. It is strange to have thrust faults so far from plate boundaries.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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This thread reads oddly now with all Fortmental's posts gone. What happened to him?
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:16am PT
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Dark bullsh#t...
That's obviously just journalistic hype. But it has to be coming from somewhere.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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There have always been big questions, such as intra-plate mountain ranges which were obviously compressive events. The Rockies are back thrusted to beat hell, and over a thousand miles from any plate boundary during the Laramide Orogeny. What drives these things has always been a shoe waiting to drop for who could figure it out.
It's probably old hat to Base but I was intrigued by his comment to look this paper up:
Laramide Crustal Shortening
Warren Hamilton, GSA Memoirs (2003)
North America rapidly overrode buoyant oceanic lithosphere during late Late Cretaceous and early Paleogene time. The southwestern United States was retarded by drag against the overridden slab and advanced slightly more slowly than did the continental interior. This resulted in crustal shortening, in a broad zone between the continental subplates, that produced the variably overthrust Laramide basement uplifts of the Rocky Mountain region. The thrust faults flatten downward into the middle crust and are reflective in seismic profiles, likely because diverse crystalline rocks have been transposed along them by ductile shear and flattening.
The increase northward and northwestward, from New Mexico to Wyoming, of crustal shortening across the Laramide belt, and the fanning pattern of northwest-broadening arcs defined by the compressive structures throughout the Rocky Mountain region, indicate that the Colorado Plateau region rotated clockwise, as though about an Euler pole in or near central New Mexico, by perhaps 4° relative to the continental interior. This rotation, combined with the subsequent clockwise relative rotation of the plateau by about 3° about an Euler pole in central Colorado as the Rio Grande rift opened in middle Tertiary time, can be seen in paleomagnetic data.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 10:05am PT
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In the original post for this thread, I wrote
A study just published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences aims to overthrow scientific orthodoxy in a field that I grew up around, and still sometimes follow -- plate tectonics. My sympathies are with the rebels.
That PNAS study, aiming to overthrow the orthdoxy of plate tectonics, was by Don Anderson who passed away earlier this month.
In the last time slots on the last day of the fall AGU meetings were two sessions on "Theory of Earth," named and organized in Don's honor. The aim of these sessions too was to advance some unorthodox and challenging perspectives on plate tectonics. For example, Anne Hofmeister presented "An alternative view of Earth's beginnings" to explain (as have other papers in this thread) why Earth's internal heat now is primarily from radioactive decay, and that early-Earth fractionation concentrated that in the mantle; if it had not then the Earth would be astronomically hot. Models and cartoons upthread that show heat rising from the deep mantle contradict thermodynamics.
Michele Lustrino gave another good talk, about the causes of igneous activity in the Mediterranean area. He found the evidence contradicts plume hypotheses (including Mt Etna, sometimes cited as a paradigm) on every point; for example, "the supposed deep mantle plume isotopic signature does not exist." The evidence points instead to relatively shallow and local sources for Mediterranean volcanics.
Despite its Friday evening slot on the meetings' last day, these sessions drew and held a large audience. The presider, Gillian Foulger (often quoted upthread) commented she had never seen a Friday evening session do that before.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 10:15am PT
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Wandering the AGU poster hall I looked to see what's new in planetary geology as well. Venus, long overdue for its revolution, won't get one soon with no satellites sending back new data. Mercury is a hot spot for science due to Messenger, so there were many posters about that -- often, trying to figure out the enigmatic magnetic field. Mars of course gets the biggest attention, and methane spikes that were the headline of these AGU meetings. There will be new things ahead there soon as well, maybe even a proposed revolution.
The word tectonics comes up in a very different context regarding the ice moons, where frozen surfaces move around above apparently liquid water seas.
A new concept for me -- the Seven Ocean Worlds:
Earth
Ceres
Callisto
Ganymede
Europa
Enceladus
Titan
Folks are making their pitch for these to be a new focus of exploration, competing with other places (namely Mars, and exoplanet spectroscopy) for limited NASA resources. It's claimed the ocean worlds are the most likely places in the solar system to find life. And sampling the water from at least one of them might be easier than I thought: Enceladus has more than 100 active ice volcanoes spraying it into space, where an orbiter could capture and taste water from a truly alien sea.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 21, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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Still not convinced that mantle plumes do not exist on earth.
I don't think that mantle plumes are stationary, but they flicker like a burning candle in a light breeze. Generally fixed in locations with the surface manifestation flickering about to and fro.
I study volcanoes from the inside and have traveled all over the world studying volcanoes and hot spots - All over the USA, Australia, Hawaii, Iceland, the Middle East, Galapagos, Asia. I've rappelled into the deep shafts of volcanic throats and explored the bowels of volcanic flows.
Mantle plumes on earth are still the best explanation.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 21, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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Take a listen to this cracking ice in this video:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Many years ago I was in an active volcanic region where we had 20-30 earthquakes overight. I put my ear to the ground and listened to the sound of earthquakes.
It sounded just like the sound of cracking ice on a lake. Identical in sound.
You will never convince me that plate techtonics is not correct.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 21, 2014 - 11:30am PT
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Also, plate techtonics explains the many Ice Ages that have occurred on the earth, including the current Ice Age that we are experiencing now.
How does this alternate theory explain Ice Ages?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 11:33am PT
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You will never convince me that plate techtonics is not correct.
I don't know anyone who thinks that! But there are a number of plate tectonics experts who don't think that mantle plumes exist. Upthread I noted why the Emperor/Hawaii cartoon can't be right. At the AGU we heard more about why Mt Etna and the Mediterranean don't fit, nor does Yellowstone. But hey, happy to talk about this.
Gillian Foulger, who co-presided at the final AGU sessions I mentioned, has written that the plume hypothesis has become unfalsifiable -- there are exceptions invented for every test it fails.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
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Also, plate techtonics explains the many Ice Ages that have occurred on the earth, including the current Ice Age that we are experiencing now.
How does this alternate theory explain Ice Ages?
Position of continents and pathways for ocean circulation undoubtedly play a role in the very long term pattern of ice ages, at scales of tens to hundreds of millions of years. Recent ice ages and glacial/interglacial cycles, at tens to hundreds of thousands of years, are much too fast for tectonics to be in control. The most common explanations involve orbital variations (Milankovitch cycles) complicated by ocean/atmosphere feedbacks.
There's always some discussion at AGU on the details, these are clearly not settled. One issue I heard about last week was exactly how CO2 rises and falls.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
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What's the date of that oroclines paper, Cam?
I've heard that in the early years of continental drift, southern-hemisphere geologists were among the first on board, because their rocks cried out mobilism. Continent-bound folks in Texas or Russia could take a more stabilist view.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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Interesting work, Cam, I wasn't aware of that history. Sounds like you had a front-row seat.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Dec 23, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
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Interesting paper Cam...thanks for posting it. Some of the crustal rotations (e.g., counter clockwise rotation of the Iberian Peninsula) mentioned were later proven to be correct using paleomagnetism.
Eldridge Moores, mentioned up thread by DMT, was another influential individual who helped bring about the paradigm shift in geologic thought that lead to plate tectonics. Moores was an early pioneer of ophiolite sequences and their regional structural implications, including the Troodos ophiolite in Cyprus and later the Smartville Complex in the Sierra foothills. With tremendous imagination, Moores and others recognized that ultra-mafic rocks originating in the mantle had been obducted on to the continent and they began describing sequences of tectonic events to explain the structural relationships and petrographic observations.
Ophiolite sequence from Elements Vol 10 Apr 2014 Ophiolites and Their Origin by Yildirim Dilek and Harald Furnes
An ophiolite is, therefore, a suite of temporally and spatially associated ultramafic, mafic, and felsic rocks that formed as the products of multiple mantle melting events and magmatic differentiation processes in a particular tectonic environment.
Possible schematic time-series for emplacement of an ophiolite sequence on the continent
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 07:19pm PT
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Earth shattering news!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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From a talk I saw today, this was news to me. You 'ologists and desert lovers out there already know what the Kaibab, Coconino and Supai formations are doing in this picture from the eastern Mojave?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 17, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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Lying unconformably on top of or in low-angle normal fault contact with much older, metamorphic rocks? Is that a detachment fault beneath the Supai?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
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Lying unconformably on top of or in low-angle normal fault contact with much older, metamorphic rocks?
That's what I would have guessed too but there's more tectonics in the story now. The Grand Canyon strata here have been strongly metamorphosed themselves, by proximity to the shallowly subducting (and water-rich) Pacific plate immediately below the eastern Mojave. And twisted up as well, the K and S letters at upper right in that slide point out Kaibab and Supai formations too.
Is that a detachment fault beneath the Supai?
In the Grand Canyon, the Supai rests atop Redwall Limestone, which forms handsome 150-meter cliffs that are one of the Canyon's most notable features. Here in the eastern Mojave it's still atop what used to be Redwall Limestone -- but that's been metamorphosed to marble, and sheared to less than half a meter thick. You could span the whole Redwall (what's left of it) with your hands. So most of the GC strata apparently are represented here but in much altered form.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 18, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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I've seen that attenuated section at the Big Marias. Went on a field trip when I was attending San Diego State back in the late 1970s.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
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I think BASE posted something about the Midcontinent or Keweenawan Rift here a few days back but it seems to have disappeared. Hopefully he can drop in again to say more.
Lake Superior today occupies part of this rift. Wikipedia has this intriguing description,
The Midcontinent Rift is the deepest closed or healed rift yet discovered; no known deeper rift ever failed to become an ocean.
So why did this mid-continental rift fail? One (revolutionary) theory is that plate tectonics in its modern form was not yet under way, that long ago (1.1 Ga).
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Here's another idea that's so old it is new again: Did the Moon once have actual seas? The orthodox "dry Moon" model says it did not, but there's a dissenting view, varied evidence, and (what seems to me) a really strong logical argument why it probably did have seas once, back around 4 Ga.
Some discussion of this idea, and other lunar heresies, appears in a forthcoming paper by O'Hara and Niu, "Obvious problems in lunar petrogenesis and new perspectives," which has been accepted but not yet published for a forthcoming Geological Society of America volume on The Interdisciplinary Earth.
Recent success in the determination of abundant water in lunar glasses and minerals confirms the prediction in the early days of lunar research that the Moon may have been a water-rich planet and may still be so in its interior, which disfavours the dry Moon hypothesis, weakens the LMO [lunar magma ocean] hypothesis, and questions many related lunar petrogenesis interpretations.
So there is mineralogical evidence for a formerly water-rich Moon, and this challenges the conventional wisdom in many ways. Is there geological evidence for water as well? There are several ways to look for this, which another forthcoming paper will do.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
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Back in December I wrote about seeing a poster at the AGU meetings about The Seven Ocean Worlds. To recap,
A new concept for me -- the Seven Ocean Worlds:
Earth
Ceres
Callisto
Ganymede
Europa
Enceladus
Titan
Folks are making their pitch for these to be a new focus of exploration, competing with other places (namely Mars, and exoplanet spectroscopy) for limited NASA resources. It's claimed the ocean worlds are the most likely places in the solar system to find life. And sampling the water from at least one of them might be easier than I thought: Enceladus has more than 100 active ice volcanoes spraying it into space, where an orbiter could capture and taste water from a truly alien sea.
As anyone interested enough to click on this thread probably knows already, NASA has a space probe that went into orbit around Ceres today. The asteroid or dwarf planet Ceres looks like this, with its curious bright spots:
Prime topics for investigation by the Dawn probe will be evidence of water vapor, comet-like sublimation of ice (or salts left behind) and indications for a subsurface ice mantle or sea.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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Yah, my hidden agenda here is a tricky one. And would you believe, there's a connection between Ceres and earthly plate tectonics? Or at least, in my version of the story.
Which will eventually bring the Moon, Mars and Venus back as well. Hey that sounds crackpot, but the key paper (not mine!) has now passed final review and should soon be in press.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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As a geology-curious soul you're most welcome on this thread! Conspiracies and all.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
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Recent discoveries of water ice sublimating from Ceres, currently guessed to be a comet-like (solar heated) process, add to the evidence that Ceres has lots of ice if not water. Maybe a significant fraction (10% ?) relative to the water in Earth's oceans. We'll soon know more about how that's related to the bright spots seen by Dawn.
Perhaps it's related to something closer to home, as well: the origin of Earth's oceans.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Nov 30, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
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Here's the abstract for the Nature article mentioned above...note deep origin of hotspots at 1,000 kms
Broad plumes rooted at the base of the Earth's mantle beneath major hotspots
Scott W. French & Barbara Romanowicz
Nature 525, 95–99 (03 September 2015) doi:10.1038/nature14876
Received 12 November 2014 Accepted 19 June 2015 Published online 02 September 2015
Plumes of hot upwelling rock rooted in the deep mantle have been proposed as a possible origin of hotspot volcanoes, but this idea is the subject of vigorous debate. On the basis of geodynamic computations, plumes of purely thermal origin should comprise thin tails, only several hundred kilometres wide, and be difficult to detect using standard seismic tomography techniques. Here we describe the use of a whole-mantle seismic imaging technique—combining accurate wavefield computations with information contained in whole seismic waveforms—that reveals the presence of broad (not thin), quasi-vertical conduits beneath many prominent hotspots. These conduits extend from the core–mantle boundary to about 1,000 kilometres below Earth’s surface, where some are deflected horizontally, as though entrained into more vigorous upper-mantle circulation. At the base of the mantle, these conduits are rooted in patches of greatly reduced shear velocity that, in the case of Hawaii, Iceland and Samoa, correspond to the locations of known large ultralow-velocity zones. This correspondence clearly establishes a continuous connection between such zones and mantle plumes. We also show that the imaged conduits are robustly broader than classical thermal plume tails, suggesting that they are long-lived, and may have a thermochemical origin. Their vertical orientation suggests very sluggish background circulation below depths of 1,000 kilometres. Our results should provide constraints on studies of viscosity layering of Earth’s mantle and guide further research into thermochemical convection.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 30, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
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There was an article in the LA Times Sunday talking about how all the heavy
metals that have been 'brought' to the Earth by impact are responsible for
the Moon's orbit which is not co-planar with the Earth's around the Sun.
The study's authors said that if all those metals had not arrived here the
Moon's orbit would be co-planar and a total eclipse would occur each month!
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Nov 30, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
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Here's how I understand it Reilly...
Au, a siderophile element in the primordial earth migrated to the Fe, Ni core in early earth history when the earth differentiated into core, mantle and crust (> 4 billion years ago). The early crust would have been depleted in these siderophile elements. Later impacts (< 4 billion years ago) brought heavy metals, including Au, to the earth's crust. Without these later impacts, Au would not be accessible at or near the earth's surface. These heavy metals have been recycled and concentrated in ore deposits in granitic and volcanic rocks via plate tectonics starting about 2.5-3 billion years ago. The moon was originally in an equatorial orbit but it was slightly knocked off this orbit by large objects that passed through the solar system but ended up somewhere else.
Here's the NYT article...
Scientists Link Moon’s Tilt and Earth’s Gold
By KENNETH CHANGNOV. 27, 2015
The moon’s orbit is askew, and two planetary scientists believe that they have come up with a good reason.
Intriguingly, their idea also explains why gold and platinum are found in the Earth’s crust, well within diggable reach.
The moon is believed to have formed out of a giant cataclysmic collision early in the history of the solar system when an interplanetary interloper the size of Mars slammed into Earth and lofted a ring of debris circling over the Equator. The debris coalesced into the moon.
At its birth, the moon was quite close to the Earth, probably within 20,000 miles. Because of the tidal pulls between the Earth and moon, the moon’s orbit has slowly been spiraling outward ever since, and as it does, Earth’s pull diminishes, and the pull of the sun becomes more dominant.
By now, with the moon a quarter million miles from Earth, the sun’s gravity should have tipped the moon’s orbit to lie in the same plane as the orbits of the planets.
But it has not. The moon’s orbit is about 5 degrees askew.
“That the lunar inclination is as small as it is gives us some confidence that the basic idea of lunar formation from an equatorial disk of debris orbiting the proto-Earth is a good one,” said Kaveh Pahlevan, a planetary scientist at the Observatory of the Côte d’Azur in Nice, France. “But the story must have a twist.”
Writing in this week’s issue of the journal Nature, Dr. Pahlevan and his observatory colleague Alessandro Morbidelli propose the twist.
The moon did indeed form in the Earth’s equatorial plane, the scientists said, but then a few large objects, perhaps as large as the moon, zipping through the inner solar system repeatedly passed nearby over a few tens of millions of years and tipped the moon’s orbit.
A series of computer simulations show that the idea is plausible.
“This mechanism works for a broad range of physical conditions,” Dr. Pahlevan said.
Eventually the crisscrossing mini-planets would have been tossed out of the solar system, swallowed by the sun, or slammed into the Earth or the other planets.
Robin M. Canup, a planetary scientist at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colo., who wrote an accompanying commentary in Nature, said the thousands of close passes that typically occur before an impact were a “really new realization” by Dr. Pahlevan and Dr. Morbidelli.
“While a single scattering event will only change the moon’s tilt slightly,” Dr. Canup said, “it’s the cumulative effect of these many passes that can produce this tilt.”
The scars of one or more moon-size objects hitting Earth would have long been erased by the tectonics of the shifting surface, but those impacts would explain the gold, platinum and other precious metals in the Earth’s crust but not on the moon.
Metals on the early Earth should have sunk to the interior. Thus, planetary scientists think that after the moon was created, later collisions that provided the last 1 percent or so of the Earth’s mass added a veneer of precious metals.
A dearth of lunar metals argues for a few large metal-rich objects hitting the Earth rather than many small ones.
The computer simulations show that the chances of the moon’s getting hit are low. In the simulations, if there was one object buzzing by, the moon was hit 9 percent of the time. With four objects, the chances of a lunar impact rose to 25 percent.
“Not an overly likely outcome, which is good,” Dr. Canup said.
Scientists including Dr. Canup had proposed other explanations for the tilt. “I would say those relied on certainly more complex processes and required rather narrow sets of conditions for success,” Dr. Canup said. “I think where this has really stepped in is it’s a very simple mechanism.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Here's the abstract from a PhD dissertation by one of Mark Zoback's students at Stanford on what recent seismicity tells us about tectonic & magmatic processes associated with the Long Valley Caldera...
THE INTERACTION OF TECTONIC AND MAGMATIC PROCESSES IN THE LONG VALLEY CALDERA, CALIFORNIA
A DISSERTATION SUBMITTED TO THE DEPARTMENT OF GEOPHYSICS AND THE COMMITTEE ON GRADUATE STUDIES OF STANFORD UNIVERSITY IN PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY
Stephanie G. Prejean February 2002
Abstract
The Long Valley caldera of eastern California is a hazardous province where tectonic and magmatic processes interact to drive on-going seismicity and deformation. The caldera is located on the boundary between the Basin and Range province and the Sierra Nevada batholith along the actively extending Sierra Nevada range-bounding normal faults. It is not clear if Basin and Range tectonic extension drives magmatic intrusion in this area or if magmatic activity is independent of regional tectonic processes. Magmatic intrusion into the caldera and extensional faulting are temporally coupled, yet it is not clear how these pro- cesses mechanically interact and potentially trigger each other.
In this dissertation, I investigate the interaction between tectonic and mag- matic processes in the Long Valley caldera over a range of scales, with the goal of developing a comprehensive model for the observed activity in the caldera. To gain a first order understanding of the mechanics by which the Long Valley area deforms, local fault geometries need to be established. To this end I relocated seismicity in the greater Long Valley area. The resulting high-resolution locations reveal a systematic fabric of faults within the caldera and in the Sierra Nevada basement rock to its south. From the focal mechanisms associated with individ- ual faults, I developed a kinematic model for seismic deformation in the Long Valley caldera. Seismicity within the caldera occurs primarily on a set of east/ west-trending right-lateral faults in the caldera's south moat. Since the south moat is located in a left step of the Sierra Nevada range-bounding normal faults, the south moat shear zone in essence forms a "transform" zone between loci of Basin and Range extension. In the Sierra Nevada block, directly south of the caldera, tectonic extension is accommodated by an east-dipping oblique-normal fault and two left-lateral strike-slip faults in its hanging wall. The location of these faults in the footwall of the Sierra Nevada range-bounding normal fault at this latitude, suggests that Basin and Range extension is potentially cutting into the Sierra Nevada batholith in this area.
To understand better the mechanical interaction of tectonic and magmatic processes at the regional scale, I performed a series of focal mechanism stress inversions in the caldera area. The inversions show that around the caldera the minimum compressive stress is perturbed from the more regional WNW–ESE direction to a NE–SW orientation. Dislocation modeling of the mapped stress field reveals that the stress perturbation cannot be explained solely by the intru- sion of magma beneath the resurgent dome, but may reflect the large-scale left- stepping offset in the Sierran range-bounding normal faults. Thus, the direction of fault slip seems to be controlled by regional tectonic processes rather than local magmatic processes. This implies that Basin and Range extension governs activ- ity in the caldera and possibly provides conduits for ascending magma.
To understand the relationship between tectonic and magmatic processes at the scale of the earthquake source, I investigate the influence of magmatic activ- ity on earthquakes by examining the source processes of earthquakes and by studying the spatial and temporal development of seismicity during a crisis epi- sode. The great majority of earthquakes in the caldera region appear to be typical "tectonic" earthquakes with source parameters similar to those observed in non- volcanic regions. However, a small number of earthquakes show magmatic sig- natures. A close examination of a seismicity swarm on November 22, 1997 in the western south moat of the caldera reveals that the swarm was triggered directly by magmatically derived fluids. Thus, although earthquakes slip in accordance with the regional tectonic stress field, magmatic activity can trigger seismicity by decreasing the effective normal stress across faults.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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clifff: Interesting article but I haven't read the paper it is based on yet. Often journalist articles on scientific papers are misleading.
Rockies Mystery Solved by New Mountain-Creation Theory?
Study "challenges this idea that we understand what's going on," expert says.
I love these statements "challenges this idea that we understand what's going on" about regional structural geologic interpretations. When it comes to explaining mountain-building processes at the scale of the North American Cordillera, involving the crust down into the mantle (> 1,000 km), we will never really "know what's going on." The opportunity for imaginative interpolation and extrapolation of direct and indirect measurements are staggering. At this temporal and spatial scale, there will always be room for new ideas (i.e., paradigm shifts) in our understanding of tectonic processes. At the human scale, we are limited to directly sampling the crust down to < 10 km and indirectly imaging or otherwise characterizing the lower crust and mantle below that (10 to ~ 2,500km) using geophysics (mainly seismic) and geochemistry (mainly stable and radioactive isotopes, noble gases, analysis of fluid inclusions, etc). The other source of data, of course, is to discover rocks at the surface, such as Kimberlite Pipes, Archean Greenstone belts and Ophiolites, that have been exhumed or extruded from great depths (10s to > 1000 km) as a result of tectonic processes, mainly collisions, to map and sample for chemical analysis.
For those interested, here's yet another modern interpretation of mountain building processes in the Rocky Mountains during the Laramide orogengy based on paleomagnetics coupled with regional surface and subsurface geologic mapping to explain the so-called "Baja to British Columbia" controversy...
http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/25/11/pdf/i1052-5173-25-11-4.pdf
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KristofferSzilas
Mountain climber
Denmark
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I noted some of you cited Don Anderson's idea that plumes never existed.
That hypothesis has firmly been rejected with the observation of plumes in the lowermost mantle:
Montelli et al. (2004). Finite-frequency tomography reveals a variety of plumes in the mantle. Science, 303(5656), 338-343.
and this recent study:
French & Romanowicz (2015). Broad plumes rooted at the base of the Earth's mantle beneath major hotspots. Nature, 525(7567), 95-99.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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The scientific objectives of the JOIDES Mohole from Henry J.B. Dick's Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute proposal...
http://iodp.tamu.edu/scienceops/precruise/indianridge/800-Full_Dick.pdf
1. Scientific Objectives
This proposal is to drill to the crust-mantle boundary in a tectonic window at Atlantis
Bank on the ultraslow-spreading SW Indian Ridge. There are two principle objectives:[/url]
I. Test the hypothesis that the Moho beneath Atlantis Bank is a serpentinization
front.
II. Recover the igneous lower crust and the crust-mantle transition at an average
melt flux for slow and ultraslow-spreading ridges.
From this we seek to understand:
• The igneous stratigraphy of the lower crust
• How much mantle material is incorporated into the lower crust.
• How melt is transported through and emplaced into the lower crust
• How the lower crust shapes the composition of mid-ocean ridge basalt the
most abundant magma on Earth?
• The primary modes of accretion of the lower crust.
• Lateral heterogeneity of the lower crust at magmatic time scales.
• The distribution of strain in the lower crust and shallow mantle in the shallow
lithosphere during asymmetric seafloor spreading.
• The nature of magnetic anomaly transitions in the lower crust.
• The role of the lower crust and shallow mantle in the global carbon cycle.
• Life in the lower crust and hydrated mantle.
I can just see the headlines now "Dick to penetrate deep into spreading center" ;-)
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jstan
climber
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All published tomographic models of purported deep plumes are severely flawed, but I
discuss here only Hawaii, which provides the type example for rationalization of a “plume track”
while disregarding both observed tectonic controls of magmatism and failure of geophysical
predictions in plume speculations (Anderson, in press). Pro-plume tomographers Wolfe et al.
(2009) depicted a low-velocity plume rising through much of the upper mantle beneath the
Hawaiian region, and a disconnected narrow plume rising obliquely northwestward toward it
from a depth of 1500 km in the lower mantle. Wolfe et al. modeled only steeply rising
teleseismic S waves to calculate uppermantle structure, and only steeply rising SKS waves to
calculate midmantle structure with rays that came through the liquid core via phase conversions.
The narrow seismometer spread precluded sampling deep mantle beneath the islands with
moderately and gently inclined crossfire, and Wolfe et al. did not utilize any other steeply rising S
and P rays that would have increased coverage, nor did they incorporate any surface waves,
receiver functions, or Vp/Vs derivatives to constrain depths, amplitudes, and characters of
possible anomalies.Wolfe et al. truncated their published model downward at 2000 km, but the
narrow bundle of SKS rays that alone defined their purported lower-mantle plume rose
northwestward through a poorly known lowermost-mantle region of low velocity (likely
recording high iron content and high density, not high temperature), which they acknowledged
could be modeled as their plume — but they claimed a plume to provide the “simplest”
explanation. Wolfe et al. forced their S-wave time delay deep into the upper mantle by assuming
that only moderate retardation occurred within either the crust or a shallow magma-generating
system. Leahy et al. (2010; Wolfe was second author) showed, with receiver-function analysis of
the same seismometer records, that the upper-mantle “plume” of Wolfe et al. (2009) was the
product of downward smearing of the time delay within thickened Hawaiian Swell crust. Leahy et
al. acknowledged previous observational proof that the Hawaiian region lacked plume-predicted
high heat flow.
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stunewberry
Trad climber
Spokane, WA
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Mar 16, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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Ridge push of slab pull?
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