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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Thanks in advance for anyone's time and effort in answering one or more of these questions.
you have no idea how long this is going to take... best thing would be, once your shoulder is good, just come on out and spend some time in the Valley... maybe we could arrange a sort of tour, the "Wall Rats and Hang Dogs" tour visiting sites mentioned in the book, interspersed with climbing tidbits, first hand recitations of climber tales, re-enact a party, and perhaps have a few old men hang around...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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OK.
Just in case she doesn't get out there, I will take number 4.
In order: yes, air brakes, insufficient padding, and no they do not hit the wall while falling, they only hit the wall when bouncing.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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terrible effort kodos, i am sorely unimpressed
edit- read lynn hill's book, "climb high", or "climb free" (?), it is written well for the layperson to get a clue. long may not have had you in mind, dr.
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dryfly
Trad climber
utah
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Longs recent article was in Rock and Ice issue 152 (july)
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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LEB, camp 4 sucks. It's dirty & the EURO's & drunks piss on the trees. The parking sucks, & never get caught sleeping in your vehicle there.Go climbing with Karl or Werner for the day & that will probably answer all of your questions.rg
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: I suggest reading a book called "How do they get the rope up there anyway" or something like that. It was written by our own Miss Blinny....
From the title it might just be what you need.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Lois isn't Kodos, Lois is Lynn Hill's troll, she's laughing her ass off nearly every day over it too.
I felt a shift in the force, that's how I know this is true.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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lois: yawn
see my edit above
why not read one book on politics or world history for every book on climbing? i'll just start holding my breath...
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Did I miss something?
LEB = Kodos?
If not, why does she know him? F*#k this place is wierd sometimes.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Lois,
Jody is right. Here's a link to that video. It is quite an excellent introduction to climbing, entertaining, too. And if you buy it there, you can help out good ol' Bob Gaines.
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, I know you don't intend to be but you're very funny. And I mean no disrespect here at all. It's like a kid walking up to a group of Hell's Angels and saying, "Gee, what's making all that noise!?"
I'll take one for you. Wall Rats are climbers but not all climbers are Wall Rats. Wall Rats are the climbers who specialize in big walls that take days to climb. Often it is hard, fearful, painful, lonesome and desperate. Also apt to fail. John was/is a climber who sometimes ventured into Wall Rat activities, though he often had to be talked into it.
You bet, some here are Wall Rats. Pass the Piton Pete for example. He takes vacations on the big walls, sometimes solo sometimes not. Most of us here are not Wall Rats but most of us are climbers.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Lois - The secrets of the club are revealed on a need to know basis. You already have all the information you need to know. If more is desired by you, you must use the key of action to unlock the mysteries.
Or, has been said many times before:
Sh#t, or get off the rock!
Edit : Actually....I would give anyone a lifetime supply of Acopa shoes(if I could afford to) to the person who can prove my claim that Lois is NOT Michael Reardon, as I jokingl;y suggested a few weeks ago, but
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noneother than
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the rattiest of all rats
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the doggiest of all dogs
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the best at keeping the joke up WAAAAAY past it's bedtime
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the largest of the large
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tallest of the tall-tale tellers
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our very own
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Well, you know who that might be.
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, I'm just killing time until I get to go pick up Sir Robert the Bruce from the dog hospital. Can't wait. So I'll jump on number one too.
"Am I correct in concluding that the “leader” of a climb goes up “unprotected” from possible falls and hazards to a specified point (per his judgement) and then fixes some bolt or something in the wall. Meanwhile, his partners cheer him on encouraging him to go higher and take yet more risk? Could this interpretation possibly be correct? If so, with friends like that, who needs enemies?"
Yep, this is almost exactly correct. However, partners may or may not be cheer you on. They may say things like, "You're gonna fall." "Bad ledge below you, might kill your ass if you hit it." "Want some advice? Climb harder!" "Please don't fall, it'll ruin the day and I don't feel like dragging your ass outa here." Sometimes we do encourge each other to "take a risk" because sometimes we are just in our own way. Committ, make the move and be glad.
The "something" that protects the fall is either a bolt with a hanger(usually) that has been pre-placed by someone or "Trad" gear, like cams and nuts and hexes. I'm not sure if anyone has ever explained that leading or being "on the sharp end of the rope" is like twice as scary, no ten times as scary, as following a leader or being on top rope. Leader falls can really hurt you.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Ok Richard, errr, I mean Lois, Here is an answer to #3.
'3. What precisely is a “route” and who passes the final judgement on whether xyz person or persons has forged said route? How do we *know* that someone has not climbed in that particular way before? Does it get “reported” to someone or some organization so that the pioneers, as it were, get credit?'
A route is a particular path up a rock wall. If you are following a crack where you can place your own protection and have your second take it out on his/her way up then you should leave no mark of your passage other than a little chalk. If you think you are the first people to climb that path then you contact the guide book author for that area and let them know what you have accomplished. If they have no other reports of anyone else doing that climb then you get the credit until someone else does step forward to claim an earlier ascent. It is all the honor system.
If you are climbing a face route there will be no place to put protection into the rock and so you will stop every so often and drill a hole and hammer/wrench a bolt into the hole. This becomes a permanent fixture so it is easy to know if anyone has gone before. Again, if you care to be recognised you can call the local guide book author and let them know that this new route is yours. Again, it is the honor system and if you really cheated and didn't climb the route in the style that you reported you are only cheating yourself. And if the route seems unclimbable, or unreasonable for the grade you suggested, you just might get accused of lying. Then we all get to have a big internet sh#t fight about it for years.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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And since I am bored today, here is an answer to #1 and #4 since they are really the same question.
'4. I don’t understand this whole fall from ropes business. Can someone try to explain this better? Long speaks of falling 80 feet, 50 feet, falling past the first this to the second that or whatever. I read it a few times but did not still do not “get it” What exactly is breaking these falls and why do the people get so banged up? Are they banging against the rock wall as they fall?'
Only the leader can really fall any distance. To answer question 1, as the leader goes up they have a rope tied to their harness. Every so often (somewhere between every 3 feet and every 50 feet) they stop and hook the rope to a piece of gear that is attached to the rock in some way that it hopefully won't come out. If the leader then climbs 10 feet above his last point of attachment to the rock and falls he will fall 20+ feet. If you hold a pencil straight up by the eraser end, the tip of the pencil is the climber. Now if you rotate the pencil but keep the eraser in exactly the same position you will see that the tip of the pencil is now 2 pencil lengths below where it started. That is how you fall 20 feet when you are only 10 feet above your last protection point. Now add in a little slack, some rope stretch, and your second moving in your direction a little as they take your falling weight and you get 20+ feet. How big that + is can be quite important depending on if you will hit anything if you fall more than 20 feet that you wouldn't hit if you only fell 20 feet.
The rope is only there for one purpose and that is to let your belayer (second) catch you if you fall. When everything works correctly you never need the rope. Once you have climbed most of the length of the rope you will stop and put some extra protection into the rock and then keep the rope snug as your second climbs the route that you have just climbed. If they fall they only have that + part to worry about. In otherwords, there is usually no risk for the second.
If the leader does fall, depending on the angle of the rock, he either slides, bangs, rolls, or flies to the end of his rope. If he makes contact with anything on the way down the chances are good that he will get hurt. After all you fall at 32'/second/second which means you accelerate really f#cking fast.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Short timer, tell the woman the whole truth:
If you say ANYTHING on a climbing site, sooner or later SOMONE will claim it is a lie, and demand eye witnesses, photos, videos, sworn affidavits, a notarized statement from the repsonsible parties written in the blood of their first born, a bonded and sizable sum held in escrow at Fort Knox, payable in gold bullion to whomsoever provides even the tiniest hint that the claims are not at least 99.999% absolutely correct and set in stone, and a few other things some little nerd is paid to think up in case all the others are taken care of.
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, you ask
"Now the "leader" never has much protection or is this true of only the first try? Am I correct in saying that a "cautious" leader or one more given to safety would only climb up a relatively shorter distance versus a more daring one. If said leader fell on the "shorter" distance perhaps he would not get as hurt as if the leader fell on a more daring attempt wherein he went up a great distance before securing a safety rope. Is this correct?"
The leader may have great protection or none. It depends on where she put the gear or where the bolt is. I've often clipped the rope above where I am standing. At that moment, I am safe completely. Once I climb past that, I am at more risk. I will fall twice the distance between me and my last pro. I will fall, go past it until the slack in the rope is taken. Then the rope will stretch, maybe about 8%. If the leader is very good, and or the route is easy, she may not put much pro in. She feels confident that she will not fall.
What do you mean "leader falls really hurt you" You mean physically or emotionally?
Hmm, never thought about emotionally. Nope, it's all physical for me. Hitting a ledge, bouncing of the side of the cliff, sudden stop at the end, "decking" are all hurtful.
Is the same person the leader for the whole trip or do the people switch off?
Their choice. Switching is often called "swinging leads"
Once the leader goes up and puts in the bolt or whatever, does he then he fix a rope to it so the other people in the group have the safety factor of climbing with a rope? Is that correct?
Yes.
Is one "allowed" to use the rope to get up. For example say the leader is a better climber and the next person can't quite get to where he is suppose to go. Can he use the rope as an aid to getting up to the next stopping point?"
Not with good ethics but sometimes it happens. Better to try to make the move and take the fall. After all, at that point you are on top rope. You ain't going far. Some exceptions to this but as a rule... Now, about Hang Dogs....
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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'Also if he is standing somewhere holding a rope, how come there are all these places for him to stand? Meaning, I can't imagine that El cap has all these ledges conveniently located so that people can "belay" one another. It simply can't be that way. What does one do when in sections where no such convenient place exists. Is THAT what is meant by fixing one's self to the wall? Is that what is meant by stating whether one's belays are or are not "safe?' Does one tie one's self in somewhere so he can have a defacto ledge or resting spot? Is that correct? If so, what does one tie one's self in with?'
You are mostly correct except that in reality most climbing in done in one pitch (rope length) and so the belayer is standing/sitting on the ground holding the rope and the leader gets to the top of the cliff and belays the second up from there then everyone walks back to the bottom of the cliff and after a brief respite another climb is chosen and the process is repeated.
Now, on multi-pitch routes the leader will need to stop when he gets to the end of the rope or sooner. He will either need to place some protection pieces into the rock or tie into ones that are already there (generally pre-placed bolts). If there is a ledge to stand or sit on then he gets to be comfortable. If there isn't he hangs in his harness for an hour or so wiggling this way and that way to relieve the pressure of the harenss on his legs and back in various ways. Ledges are very much preferable but not always available. Often the ledges determine how long a pitch is because the party that established the route would have stopped at the nice ledges to belay even if they were only half way thru the length of rope.
Then there is the whole notion of 'wall rats' and I am definitely not among that crowd. A wall rat like PTPP will generally be aiding a climb. Aiding means that he is actually hanging on the pieces of gear he attaches to the rock, while free climbers like me are only allowed to use our hands and feet to climb up the rock. So hanging on anything other than the rock is aid, and if you were trying to free climb the route and hung on the rope or any of your protection you have failed. Some small allowance is made for hanging from your gear if you fall, so the rule is pretty much about using anything other than the rock to make upward progress. Anyway, back to wall rats. Since they are using accessories to move up the rock, they need to place many pieces as you can only really reach up so far to place the next piece while hanging on the last one.
Since the whole point of climbing is to ascend harder and harder walls, aid placements get worse and worse and scarier to hang on. This all takes a long time to get right so some of these guys can hang on a wall for many days at a time. Now days though, the belayer is generally quite comfortable because they have this huge nylon ledge to sit/lie on that Russ made for them. The leader though is standing in these little webbing ladder dealybobs for hours at a time though so it really isn't much fun. Also because you are there for many days you need to haul all the food, water, and waste storage devices that you will need for that time with you. Plus you are using so much gear to climb on that it weighs a ton too. So much of the effort of climbing a big wall is hauling your sh#t up with you. So these are the wall rats that like to hang out and get disgustingly filthy for days on end or endlessly toil in order to do a climb that a free climber would do a few hours.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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LEB: I'll provide some general comments that may help, although it quickly gets into static and dynamic physics.
Climbing ropes are very stretchy. They absorb most of the force from falls by stretching. A typical single (lead) rope stretches about 6% simply under an 80 kg static load, and may stretch 50% of its length before failing. It will probably stretch quite a lot under even a moderate fall. This is why, if the leader is X distance above her last secure protection, she'll fall 2X plus 10, 15 or even 20% further. Higher force = more stretch.
The belayer (second) is securely anchored at the belay, tied to the other end of the rope, and paying attention. She secures the rope to the leader through a metal device attached to her harness, that allows her to pay out rope as progress is made, but to quickly "lock off" the rope and hold the leader if she falls. There is usually some give in the belay/tie in/belayer. (Part of the second's job is managing the rope that isn't being actively used, but soon will be.)
A short fall can be more severe than a long one, depending on the fall factor. Think rubber bands, or bungy jumping. A long one will stretch a lot more than a short one under the same force. This is called fall factor, essentially the force generated. The maximum possible fall factor is 2 - the leader can never fall more than twice the distance of rope between her and belayer, assuming the rope doesn't break (highly improbable), and the belay and belayer are reliable (usually). So if the leader is 20 metres above the belayer, she can fall a maximum of 40 metres, plus rope stretch and system give. Fall factor is 40 divided by 20 = 2. If the leader has placed no protection, a fall factor 2 is always possible, regardless how far she is from the belay, or how close. A seeming paradox - shorter fall, same force.
Falls closer to the belay, even where there is protection, usually generate higher forces - if the leader has climbed 10 metres, and placed reliable protection at five metres, then falls, the fall factor is 1 - ten metres fall, divided by 10 metres of rope out. If the leader has climbed 40 metres, placing protection every five metres, and then falls, the fall factor is 0.25 - ten metres fallen, divided by 40.
The steepness of the rock also matters - usually a low angle fall is less severe (on the rope), because the leader bumps and scrapes on the way down. Falls on vertical and overhanging rock appear scarier, but have lower likelihood of limb smashing collisions. Of course the further you fall, regardless of fall factor, the more likely it is that you'll hit something and get hurt.
Climbing without a rope is called free soloing. We all do it, within our tolerances. Some people free solo very hard climbs. Most will only free solo climbs that are much easier than those they can lead.
Climbing equipment must generally meet standards set by the CE in Europe. IF USED PROPERLY, it generally must not break at less than about 22 kilonewtons force. The testing of all climbing equipment for strength and quality control is quite rigorous. Almost always, when equipment fails it is a result of wear or misuse. Hence the consternation on ST when a rope failed at a climbing gym in Sacramento - very controlled environment, hard to understand. The human body will likely suffer internal injuries from a fall generating more than 10 kN (usually caused by sudden deceleration, i.e. hitting something), but there's the usual engineering safety factors just in case.
In answer to your other questions, the climbing community may seem somewhat anarchic to outsiders, but there are very strong mores and ethos. Perhaps less universal than in the past, and always the subject of vigorous debate, but still there. A lot of the things you ask about simply aren't written down, though.
And, of course, there's the secret password and decoder ring, and the arcane initiation ceremony - did we mention those?
Anders
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Lois, I think you are putting too much emphasis on this mentoring aspect. While some were older and some were better, basically it was a community of near equals. Bridwell was a 'dirt bagger' aka 'climbing bum' much of that time although he probably worked in the winters some. He may also have derived some income from guiding others not from our crowd or even got some small sponsorship deals. Others would know the particulars better than I. Basically he got a reputation because he was bad ass! He was an exceptionally strong climber in many aspects of climbing and was willing to put his ass on the line in all the ways that climbing can be dangerous for many years. Oh, and he happens to be somewhat charasmatic.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Hmmmm, now that I think about it, most climbers seem to be somewhat charasmatic. Why is that?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Most are climbing bums for a few years in their late teens and into their twenties and then reality and job and family become more important. While Bridwell did have a wife (I'm pretty sure) he spent many years as a climbing bum and still does for the most part, although he must be getting near to social security time.
As to aid, for us climbing is not really about getting to the top of anything. Mountaineers have that sickness but us rock climbers are mostly just in it for the challenge. Life is seriously bereft of challenges for a lot of people. If you aren't into seeing how much money you can make and how fast you can make it, or how much power you can accrue, then a job is work and they need to pay you in order to get you to do it. It doesn't take long until you are pretty good at it and it becomes boring. Climbing is the juxtoposition to work for most of us. It is where we challenge ourselves. It is where we take our risks and seek our real rewards, while at the same time letting us 'be' in a more natural world. That is also part of it for a lot of us. So, the challenge is to our skill, perception, intelligence, and physical abilities. We don't want someone to help us. That is just the opposite of everything we are climbing for. We are here to be self sufficient in a way that never happens in normal life. So to break the rules (which is what cheating amounts to) is a failure to meet the challenge. Failure is not the objective. Overcoming all odds all by yourself is the objective. It is a selfish sport!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Bachar = Hang Dog
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Slakkey
Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
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LEB,
You need to get off the farm and check out some real climbing. You need to touch the rock and get a feel for what you are posting about. You just need to do it. I am sorry if this pisses everyone of on this site but, for someone who claimes that they are intelligent. I have real issues that you post some very dumb questions. This is coming from someone for who my late wife had a PhD in Molecular Biology. I myself have a masters in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering. My wife and I did not suffer fools lightly. She was not a Climber but, had a genuine understanding of many aspects of the sport. LEB think about for one minute what you are posting.
Like I said I am sorry if people find this offensive but, I have just had it with her long winded rants. LEB, you want to learn about Climbing then just get out and do it. This could be my last post for awhile. That may not mean to many but, I have more important things to attend to.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Ouch! please a picture of a bachar hang dog!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: it was a joke. A good one too because it so wrong. Bachar is no hangdog, and as far as I know has tried it like once, 20 years ago, at Smith Rock, Oregon, land of hangdogs.
Hangdogging is simply while trying to climb something, you fall, but stay in the same area of the climb, hanging on the rope, and start again from that point after resting without lowering all the way to the ground, or in some cases, to the last no hands rest. Bachar was/is one of the purest and best climbers EVER, and is certainly no hangdog by any stretch of the imagination.
Locker style edit: as for the 25 years of BS.... too long of a story. Nobody died or was injured physically. There is some mental damage however. (just a joke WoS guy/s!) Read all 600+ posts and get back to me as needed. Word to the wise: don't even think of poking your neb in there with any LEB type trolls. Them boys play rough.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: this may help a bit for some other terms. Googled from rec.climbing in 1995:
From: Ilana Stern - view profile
Date: Mon, May 15 1995 12:00 am
In article , jpver...@syr.edu
(Jim Vermeulen) writes:
> This raises a good point. Is there a recent publication/article that
> delineates all the lingo? Might be useful for out-of-the-loop sport climbers
> and aging trad climbers(like myself)
This is aperiodically posted to rec.climbing, and it's in the archive
as well:
"Modes of Ascent"
--
Russ Walling and I put our heads together and came up with the
following thoughts on the various modes of ascent:
Definition of Terms:
Onsight Free Solo:
=
Angus McGillicuddy has never been to Mt. Hogwash. Walking along
the base, Angus spots a line of bolts up an overhanging schist
intrusion. He fancies the look of the route, laces up his boots, blows
his nose, chalks up and gapes at several girls from the Swedish Sport
Climbing Team, who are limbering up and changing into bright-colored
lycra tights. Psyched, Angus winks, spits into his palms, then solos
up the schist intrusion.
Free Solo:
=
Angus has been to Mt. Roughage several times. On two occasions,
he's climbed the "Watercloset", a difficult route that follows a basalt
intrusion via chancy dynamics. Angus has it in his mind to solo the
"Watercloset". Now at the base, he laces up, touches his toes, exhales
hard, then solos the route.
Worked Solo:
=
Angus has been coming to Mt. Peatmoss for 11 years. He's lead
"Compost" 50 times, toproped it 70 times, and also on a toprope, has
worked the crux bit over and over till he knows it better that the hair
on his palms. Now he plans to solo "Compost", an intricate razor job
up a monzonite intrusion. At the base, he flexes his guns, flexes his
back, flexes his loins, jumps onto "Compost" and solos it in six
minutes.
Onsight Flash or a Vue:
=
Angus has never been to Mt. Basura. One route, "The Offal", takes a
loose line up a steep albeit trashy intrusion. Angus racks up and
leads "The Offal" straight off, placing all the gear. He takes no
falls, nor a single rest on the line.
Beta Flash:
=
This is Angus' first trip to Mt. Gizmo. At the local pub, Angus runs
into Jack Nastyface, the local hardman. since Angus is buying, Jack
describes down to the last pinky lock the sequence for climbing "The
Honest Indonesian", an improbable Mt. Gizmo test piece following a
sketchy dun intrusion. With the sequence memorized, Angus flashes the
route the next afternoon.
Deja Vu:
=
It's been some years since Angus was last at Mt. Tallywacker. He
remembers trying the "Chamfered Luby" and failing miserably. The
successive lunges along the scarlet intrusion notwithstanding, he
remembers little about the route. But, Angus is a better climber that
he was 7 years ago and the next morning, he manhandles the "Chamfered
Luby" on his "first" try.
Red Point:
=
Angus has tried to climb "The Widget" on Mt. Sputnik for 5 years now.
He's aided it, toproped it, and studied it from a helicopter, (on
jumars with opera glasses of course). Finally he leads it, no falls,
placing the gear as he goes.
Pink Point:
=
Angus has been trying to climb "The Bullwhip" on Mt. Mapelthorp for 10
years. He's gotten close, and after hosing the windgate intrusion with
Gumout, squeegeeing it clean, then buffing each hold with 600-grit
sand paper, he wants to try the lead once again. But first builds a
model of the route on his home climbing wall preworks all sequences
to a "T", then finally on the day of reckoning... he raps down the
route, places all the gear, then flashes the lead.
Brown Point:
=
Angus has never tried "Intelligent Gas from Uranus" on Mt. Bachar. He
starts up the blank face between the two brown intrusions full of
intentions to make a flash ascent. Things go awry in a hurry, and Angus
is soon hanging from the cord. He's quickly on a toprope, pulling
through the first two grim bits. Later, stumped at the crux, he
incorporates a side rope, one etrier and a 'come-along' belay. This
makes Angus feel like he's got the strength of 10 men as he works out
the crux. Within hours, he stands on the summit ready to rap down and
place the gear for a 'pink point' ascent the next day.
There are however other procedures that Angus sometimes employs in
his quest for the summit that are worth mentioning. For instance, he's
been known to 'hangdog'. That is, after he falls off his lead
attempt, he won't hesitate to hang on the rope, rest, then carry on,
fully refreshed.
When Angus first went to Mt. Pipedream, he didn't have time for
too many shenanigans, but he did want to bag "The Tijuana Virgin", a
nearly non-existent line of pockets along as ivory intrusion. To save
time, he rapped down to the crux, worked it out on toprope, then rapped
down to the deck and 'red pointed' the route. thus, Angus had 'speed
dogged' the route (also known as 'greyhounding').
At Mt. cameltoe, Angus desperately wanted to scale "The Man in the
Boat", but first wanted the beta. He sent his hapless buddy Shawn
O'Sean up to work out the moves while he watched smugly from below.
Shawn was 'seeing-eye doggin' for Angus, who was then set to try his
Beta Flash.
Also, at Mt. Cameltoe, Angus took a liking to "The Pipefitter". He
did not, however, like the looks of the first bolt, which was 30 feet
off the talus slope from hell below. Angus needed a 'coon dog' to go
up and fetch him that first clip. Shawn had already mounted "The
Pipefitter" 69 times before, and gladly 'coon dogged' for Angus. He
clipped the first bolt, lowered, then handed off the blunted sharp end
for Rover to take over in relative safety.
Angus encountered a similar situation at Mt. Hamstring. "The Rocky
Mountain Oyster", followed an overhanging intrusion and the first bolt,
way the hell up there, already had a quickdraw on it. Nobody's fool,
Angus took a long bight of rope, twirled it overhead like a lariat and
hurled it at the in situ quickdraw. the bight of rope hit the dogleg
biner at the gate and with a click!, Angus was clipped in! He named
this method the 'rodeo clip'.
Angus certainly is not one, but he's known a few "dog's asses".
These craven swine cannot accept defeat and alter an existing route to
make it easier for them to scale, placing additional bolts, chiseling
holds, etc: Starvation, thirst and financial ruin to them all!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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These nutshell versions allways seem to get me in trouble:
Nutshell:
Yosemite Valley is filled with climbers. Some live there full time. Some visit. There is a hierarchy in place. The ones that live there full time are the top of the food chain.
El Cap is the God they and all visiting climbers worship. Dues must be paid, by putting in time and suffering on El Cap. Visitors are expected to bow down before El Cap and the Valley locals. Just the way it is. Think Surfing, my beach, my wave.
Newcomers to the Valley show up. They intend to climb El Cap via a new route. This in itself is audacious. No dues have been paid. They have also chosen what is believed to be a blank slab devoid of cracks. Valley locals think this is going to be a problem as blank walls need bolts and lots of them. Lots of bolts are frowned upon. The newcomers start the wall and are planning on being up there for about a month. This is viewed as too long and bad style. Light and fast is the ideal for most. They have 1200lbs of gear. Most parties have 100 or so.
Some locals decide to take matters into their own hands and remove these upstarts from the wall before they can damage the God known as El Cap. Somehow the locals get to the top of the newcomers ropes some 300ft up the wall and remove all the bolts they have placed and deposit all the newcomers gear at the base of the cliff and then take a shiit on top of the pile. Newcomers might have been out of town when this happened? Not sure... anyway....
Newcomers come back to find the pile of shiit and their route chopped. They will not be denied and start up again and then stay up there for some 39 days or so. Rumor is they drilled 1000's of bolts and left a giant trail of feces down the rock from their daily functions and tons of trash at the base. There were other accusations which I forget, mostly along the lines of damaging the rock or something. Valley spin doctors whip the story into a giant tempest that permeates all climbing media. Newcomers are now pariahs, and write a book on their exploits, yet no climbing magazine will touch them. All the editors were Valley locals.
Newcomers now need to prove that they are not just some goofballs and go and do one of the hardest routes on El Cap by normal means. Valley regulars monitor every step of the Newcomers... then they go to the Desert and blow the lid off another supposed super hard route and do it in good style. But, these guys are the Newcomers who ruined El Cap, so a malodorous smell follows them around and the style of the Desert route is called into action. Did they do it or did they debauch it like El Cap? They say no, others say yes. Proof on any of this is purely sujective.
Fuk... this nut shell is getting long... and there are many tangents I could go on to....
Fast forward 25 years... here on supertopo a witch hunt and air clearing starts. Most of the Valley locals involved are either dead, can't type, or are long forgotten. The Newcomers are fired up it seems for the entire 25 years. For the rest of us, it seemed to last a few weeks. In the fury, a few Supertopians decide to go and check this deflowered and ruined section of rock that the Newcomers destroyed. The supertopians decide to climb the thing. All is set to make the Newcomers look like the fools they are... except for the Supertopians can't really get off the ground on the route!!!! hahahaha-fukin-ha! It seems the route is in fact not a bolt ladder, has never been repeated by any other party, and just gave a swift kick in the pants to some "real" climbers.
So, the stink is the Newcomers have been dissed for 25 years, then in a Lazarus style whirlwind they discovered the internet, and started to try and clear their name.
That is where we are right now.
That should at least get you going.
I'll post this over on the other thread too, since I don't want to be accused of sneaking around posting lies and such. Maybe you will get some cross court action.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Shiit LEB! You of all people doing research while I type my ass off! Unreal!!
Anyway, there is some sort of synopsis.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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You are looking for more formal answers and definitions than any that exist. this was not set up it grew.
It is evolution, not intelligent design.
1) yes-kinda
2) No
3) NA
4) already answered, see the Ed & Roger show
5)various intertwined subgenera, wallrats are those doing a bunch of walls at the given time, though some do that exlusivly (ie pppete seems to be exclusively in this lifestyle at these current time space coordinates) lots of us knock around alot. See Games Climbers Play (article) by Lito Tejada Flores
6) Yes!/No! thank gawd, hands off!
7)Too many reasons to cite. having to yank own teeth out of head after getting clobbered by alp rock in order to more fully enjoy partying with Italian climbers is only iindicative. see also significant wall and free ascents, 1965(?) to a few years ago plus important climber rearing to start to scratch the surface.
"There will be no Mutiny here, any one who trys will walk the plank." (sic)
9)"There are no Rules," Some guy refered to, sometimes, as Nimbo.
10) Salathe? (ghost of?)
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WBraun
climber
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Damit Russ, LOL
That Angus "Definition of Terms" is some of the funniest sh#t I've ever read here.
A masterpeice ...........
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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I need to crack this off quick, as some people on this very forum are wondering why I am wasting time at the keyboard instead of making "wall rat" gear for them (which is what I should be doing right now!!)
So is this correct - "some" bolts are a necessary evil but lots of them are frowned upon?" Also are people "allowed" to put in bolts ahead of time to make it easier to climb later? How can that be?
The person who does the first ascent is allowed (in most cases) to place what bolts he/she feels is needed to do the route. Once those initial bolts are in place, the amount of bolts is "set in stone" and must not be altered. Nobody can add bolts to that route, and nobody can chop bolts from that route. There are exceptions, but rare. Too few bolts can be a problem, and too many can be a problem. Very hot subject.
Also isn't this getting at the heart of the "climbers" vs "wall rats" thing. Climbers go light and quick vs wall rats who "hang around" With 1200 lbs of gear I guess one can "hang around" quite some time. I don't know that I take that much gear in the motorhome. Were these people (the newcomers) of the 'wall rat' genre and is that contributing to the problem.
Climbers, for lack of a better word, are usually doing things that may last one day, or as short as a few minutes.... Wall Rats are more interested in climbing formations that take lots more time and employ different techniques and tactics. Wall Rats are Climbers, just as Climbers can be Wall Rats. The Newcomers were a wild card, but since they had not been on El Cap, they were for sure not Wall Rats and held in suspicion was the general thought.
Could you or anyone please comment more on this whole "bolt" issue. What IS allowed. I am distressed at the whole image of El Cap (or "God" as you call it) getting defaced and I am not even a climber. I love this monolith too. This is what I posted about in my first question. I am uncomfortable with anyone "hurting" El Cap too. What is the "ethics" about this whole thing?
See above, but don't add any to any existing route. Don't use too many on your new route. And don't chop someone elses unless you have good reason and are willing to back it up in some cases with fists.
As for the aid Q you had.... simply put, the Wall Rat will place gear that is removable, stand on it, and place another piece to gain height. He will only fall if some of the gear he is standing on comes out of the crack. This is not a mechanical failure, but the placement the gear was in was just at the limit of the holding power of the gear. The Wall Rat can use the same gear as the Climber, and most of the systems of belays and such are the same. On occasion the Wall Rat will use other pieces of gear that are intended to be beat into the cracks and removed afterward, known as pitons. The Climbers rarely use these pitons, as modern gear is faster to place and is just as secure in most cases. The Wall Rat uses pitons as no modern gear will go into the cracks in that section of the route. We are talking hairline sized cracks.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Werner....
Yep, Largo got that going and I was just along for the ride. Man we had some fun.....
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WBraun
climber
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Then how is this policy enforced?
The "Honor System".
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Last one:
The first person(s) to "do" a route places the bolts? So then everyone who follows then "uses" these bolts if they want to also climb that same route?
Correct. The bolts stay after the first ascent.
If the subsequent climbers are more skilled and don't need as many bolts then they simply do not use all of them? If however the subsequent climbers are less skilled, then, they might need more bolts to do the same ascend? BUT they are not allowed to place them because only the first people to do a route can place the bolts?
Correct. But... the more skilled usually just use all the bolts, because if a route is done right, the bolts are where anyone will need them climbing at that level. What this means is on a free climb (not an aid climb) a great climber may not need all the bolts, but someone whos skill level is in line with the grading of the route will use all the bolts and be glad they are there. That is why great climbers who do new routes that are easy for them and do not put in bolts are seen as jackassses. They use up available rock and shut out the people that would get the most benefit from the route being well bolted. But.... if someone adds bolts to this route, be prepared to back up your actions. Very grey area.
If this understanding is correct, then how is this policy enforced?
People will chop added bolts. Usually very experienced people who know about local ethics and what tactics for getting the bolts in are "legal" and in line with the history of the area. Boldness is preserved. Added bolts usually don't last long. The other argument is that climbing should be safe for everyone and any dangerous routes should have bolts added so everyone is safe. This is the standard argument. Usually some elitist prick (like myself) will rage against this crowd, and if any bolts are added I would not be out of character to chop them. Usually it is newer climbers who bring on this "safe for all" argument because they are just not good enough to do the route in the manner of the first ascent, so they get all hissy and try to bring the route down to their level by making it safer.
Locker style edit:
Of course there are numerous variations on the theme. Bolts near protectable cracks get chopped.... Bolts on top of crags with a walk off sometimes get chopped... guides who place convenience bolts to make guiding the herd of cattle they call clients get their bolts chopped..... there really is too many to list and most are regional and area specific.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Problem with bolts is that their use can be acceptable or unacceptable depending on the climbing area.
However, placing a bolt is a permenant alteration of the rock. You have to drill a hole, and then you place a bolt which expands in the hole and is bloody hard to extract if you've done it right. It is there forever, or until someone actually takes the time to chop it.
So if there is any other way of putting an anchor in to protect your lead, that should be done before a bolt is placed.
Mike Dahlquist dropped me an email from his Europe trip, he is shocked at the use of bolts in the alps... here is an example he shot a picture of:
The bolt is right next to a crack into which Mike has placed a piece of gear we refer to as a "cam". There was no need to put the bolt there. In Yosemite Valley, that bolt would be chopped.
The problem with bolts is that any fool can put them in, they make the climbing more secure and thus easier... this is true both for aid climbing as well as free climbing. Sometimes only a bolt will do for protection. The trick in putting up a good route is to try to find a "natural passage" which may have some unavoidable bolts, but attempts to minimize the number of bolts, at least for "trad routes".
You could put a bolt in every 5 feet up a blank wall and get to the top by essentially climbing this ladder, but that wouldn't be very challenging. On El Cap this would be something like 600 to 700 bolts.
Better is to try to find a way which doesn't require so many bolts.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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If you didn't care perhaps you might get away with it for a few climbs, but at some point the locals who enforce the area ethic will run you off. This has happened.
The idea is to ascend the routes in as good a style as possible, part of that is minimizing what you do to the rock. If you are climbing a route already done by someone, the local ethic here is to leave it in the same state as it was first climbed. No new bolts. If you can't climb it then you should back off.
You are also right that pulling the bolt can scar the rock. Sometimes the holes are refilled with rock dust mixed with epoxy. Often the hanger is taken off and the bolt just sheared off at the rock surface.
There is no regulatory board that decides these things, it is the climbing community. As with any community they may see "outsiders" as threats... then act.
I see we'll have to keep you away from the bolt kit on your visit.
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I thought Dingus was paranoid before. Now with that seed placed in my head, this thread seems diabolically perfectly planned to waste people's time.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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LEB - there are regulations on drilling bolts in Yosemite Valley, and there may be more on the way (see recent threads, e.g. Roger's [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=227546#msg229402"]Hypothetically... no pitons in the Valley[/url]), and there is a ban on using power tools to drill (currently we drill "by hand", with a hammer, which slows the process down considerably). Not all of these rules are enforced or are enforceable without climber cooperation.
There are also cliffs regarded as "out of bounds" for a variety of reasons: sensitive plants, nesting raptors, tourist vistas, rockfall danger, etc. Climbers sometime climb in these areas, and are sometimes hassled by the NPS LEOs. As far as I can tell, this cycle of life has been going on "since the begining". The history of Yosemite Valley as a National Park is very odd if you think it was supposed to be preserved in its "wild state," as even the native people altered what was going on in the Valley to enable them to live there.
I believe we are lucky to be able to climb there at all with such a light regulation of the sport. The biggest problem climbers face now is that there are restrictions on access because so many people come to see the Valley. Climbers feel a bit put out that their visits are not considered different then the statistical tourist who spends something like 15 minutes out of their car. Mostly I visit in the fall, winter and spring off season to avoid the summer crush, and heat, and the attention of the LEOs.
But even though I have been a weekender for the last decade, I do not count myself among the Valley regulars, I may have opinions, but I would defer to those who essentially live and climb there all the time.
I try to be extremely respectful of what is going on there in the climbing scene, which includes not bringing "a line" down to my ability when it might be sent in better style at a harder grade.
[Translation: "a line" is a passage up a section of cliff which may (or may not) be a route, "sending a line" in this context means climbing it, usually bottom to top.]
It is possible for me to stumble over a really nice climb that I am not able to do, go up and sprinkle bolts all over the place, retreat, and leave a mess for someone else to deal with later, casting the pall over the potential gem (rampant mixed metaphors). This happens less when the climbers putting up new routes have a good idea of what level of climbing is expected, and what the projects of the day are, who's pushing what in whatever direction and how. Yes the Valley is public, open to all, but the number of lines to climb is finite... and we all would like the highest quality routes to be established in one of the primier places in the world to climb. Unfortunately, since it is one of the primier places to climb, a FA in the Valley is considered a feather in the cap of some climbers juicy enough to try anything to gain that noteriety... thus some climbers feel pressured to put up routes which are junk. This is definitely in the eye of the beholder... but you can guess at some of the dynamics. And those dynamics put in motion a whole set of events from which many a good tale has be spun (the Forum has many of these sprinkled about).
Amazingly enough, this is all done ad hoc, with all the messy human interactions thrown in to make it socially interesting. And some truely amazing climbs get put up inspite of it all.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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This thread is great. I read Russ' summary for WoS and now believe I have a sensible understanding--future history is tough to master. Thanks Russ.
As for your questions, Lois, you have been given plausible answers, but...
1. The ‘leader’ in climbing is just like any other leader: he or she shows the way, provides a path or method, makes promises to the followers and encourages them, and reaps the rewards of leadership—what ever those might be. In climbing as in politics, if the leader fails (falls) the followers try to arrest the fall and set the leader back on a rightful course. If this fails, and the leader is still alive, the followers will usually set the ex-leader up in business, selling shoes or perhaps making documentaries on global warming. Just as in politics, there are no real friends, just alliances.
2. It is true that El Cap is covered with hardware, but it is relatively small and hard to see. You can test this yourself by staring at a recent photo of El Cap—can you see any of the hardware?
3. A route is part of the rock that has a rope hanging from it. This is the ‘path’ set by the leader. The ropes shows the way. This is why they are so brightly colored, so they can cross and get tangled, but a follower can always find his or her way. This is how the rest of us know what the leaders have done.
Lately, there has been a lot angst in the climbing community because some leaders are climbing up rocks without trailing a rope. This really confuses the followers. We cannot know for sure which path the leader has taken. We can only guess and speculate. It leads to lots of arguments that might as well be about religion or Middle Eastern politics.
John Bachar is trying to create technology for virtual ropes that everyone can see even if they aren’t really there. This would be a big step forward. (Also, they are very light and dry quickly.)
4. The standard model for climbers is that the rope protects you if you fall off the rock. However when the rope is below you, the logic becomes convoluted and only really works if a leader falls up the route. In short, climbers get banged up when they fall because their partners hammer on them for wasting time and ruining the ropes. Leaders aren’t supposed to fail, if they do, they pay the price.
5. Wall rats and hang dogs are unkind references to the personalities and facial features of certain climbers.
6. Camp 4 is a shrine to a way of life that is supposed to have existed in the past--in the paradise at the beginning of climbing time.
It is protected by a series of treaties with the Federal government. Sort of like an Indian reservation or the Vatican—a place of historical and mythical or spiritual significance to the true ‘tribe’ of climbers. It’s against the law to clean it up. There are also regulations that govern how loud it must be and a minimum proportion of the inhabitants that must be drunk or stoned—these are in place so that tourists and visiting climbers can have an ‘authentic’ Yosemite experience (an executive at the Curry Company came up with the idea). However, most climbers only show up at the major holiday services, but otherwise stay away. Werner is the caretaker.
7. Jim Bridwell is a mythical figure. There is a shrine in Camp 4 for him. His original nick name was ‘The Bod,’ but that caused all sorts of confusion with real climbers all of whom are ripped and charismatic. So someone came up “The Bird’ and it stuck.
The pictures you see of ‘The Bird’ are from Ouch!—it’s his day job to maintain the myth of ‘The Bird.’ He had him in a crew cut and rolled cuffs for a long time, we had to ease the myth along a bit for the 60s and 70s. No one had the heart to put him into spandex or a leisure suit, so the image sort of got stuck in the 70s milieu.
How you refer to him and whether or not you lay flowers at his shrine in Camp 4 is up to you. But, most of us believe that you can gain a greater depth of spiritual understanding if you keep you voice down, cover you shoulders, proffer flowers and light candles. On the other hand, there are some vulgar climbers around who insist that all that crap is just to keep from disturbing climbers hiding in the shrine who are trying to sleep off the heavy partying that goes on at Camp 4.
8. Climbing is about achieving nothing in perfect harmony with the practice of mastering the thoroughly useless. It’s whacked, with secret rules (doors too), and attracts *very intelligent* people who can’t make it in the real world. However, it beats riding motorcycles or living in a fantasy world on the internet.
9. Rock climbing is all about the rules. Think of an open field, a stick, a ball, and kids looking for something to do. What comes next? Why, rules, of course.
However in climbing, unlike stick and ball games, the rules change all the time. There have been efforts to write it all down and try to get it straight, but it is pretty hopeless. It just keeps getting worse. The ‘Climber's Forum’ is an attempt to get climbers to agree on something, and you can judge for your self that it doesn’t work.
The reason there are so many routes in Yosemite is because no one can agree on anything. Someone will think they have discovered the best approach, acquires a uniquely colored rope, finds a few followers and establishes a new route only to have it criticized (and physically abused, in some cases) by other climbers. Then someone gets a new idea and puts up another route.
It is like religious sects. The more time and the more participants, the more versions you get. For sure if we could agree on the perfect set of rules, we would just have one route.
10. As I understand it, John, as a young man, was riding around with his girl, hopelessly lost. The girl insisted that he stop and ask for directions. He finally succumbed and asked the way. The old man he asked had no idea what John was saying and randomly pointed at Camp 4. This is the genesis story of Yosemite rock climbing, a story that we all pass along to our children. There is even a smallish group of climbers who believe that they should go door-to-door telling this story.
Oh, yeah, after waiting around for John to return with the directions—which he never did, the girl split.
Best regards, Buzz
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Brownpoint, one of my fave Fishism ever....
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Roger
Thanks so much for taking the time and providing such thoughtful answers. I am sure you must have been climbing for a long time. Everything seems much clearer to me now.
There is only one thing. You numbered the answers, but I forget which questions correspond to which numbers. Would it be too much trouble to repeat each question before each answer.
Have you ever read John Long's Climbing Book. It almost seems like you might have known him. Is he related to the Bird? I have many more questions, but I must get back to work.
PS. If I have anymore questions after writing this, I will post them later.
PPS. Do you think it would be possible to learn how to climb without actually leaving level ground? I am so interested in this rock climbing thing, but I am just not that brave.
PPPS. Can one weave a rug with one of said virtual ropes? Would it be a virtual rug, or a real rug made of virtual rope?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Now TiG, those were way too intelligent a set of followup questions to have come from Lois. It was a good effort but you need to take it down even more levels of intelligence to even come close. Frankly, I don't think a climber could, or should, ever stoop so low as to accurately portray Lois. Poor Lois, so out of place and under appreciated here in Taco land. I think it also escapes her how different climbers really are. If she really knew what freaks we are she might not want to hang out here any more. She certainly would be mortified to learn how twisted Russ really is.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Shorttimer -
Sorry. I thought the only criticism would be the paucity of words and maybe no typos. I will try softer next time.
PS. I should have put in at least one malapropism as well, right?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Well yeah, you were not nearly long-winded enough. And you need to lose the Locker-esque postscripts.
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I must admit that after reading beyond the opening list of questions from LEB, interesting stuff surfaced from this thread. I hereby resign from the job of conversation police.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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ShortTimer - Rajmit once pointed out to LEB that PS was for letters back in the days of pen and ink / typewriter - that using it was archaic in the electronic world. That advice was lost on her.
Review first post in this thread! LOL. (and another one in this same thread.)
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Ahhh, just shows how well I read her posts. I either didn't notice the ps and pps or, most likely, I never bothered reading that far. It's funny, I originally thought Lois was kinda slow. Then I thought she was just being intentionally obtuse. But after reading this thread I am pretty sure I was right in the first place and have been giving her entirely too much credit.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Lois, that is part of the reason I post here too. Smart people. Just remember that ALL serious climbers have a sickness. If you keep that in mind then you won't get hurt.
The WoS guys ARE being vindicated it would seem. Not everyone is willing to take the noose off their necks just yet, but they are down off their horses. At this point in time everyone is sort of standing around kicking dirt with their shoes and thinking about apologizing.
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Oh Lois girl.
Get yer butt back on to the locker-man's thread. You know you want to!
Apologies to Roger et al
Cheers
-John
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Nice link Roger!
Care to join us on Mission 666.
You are RB, that famous Coloradan Climber aren't you?
Q: Why are Yosemite climber so muscular and Coloradan climber so sinewy. Is that a geolgical thing?
-John
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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On that whole thing you explained to me about the WoS debacle, everything was crystal clear except for one point. Did I understand you to say that in the final analysis the new comers were vindicated? I am not sure and knowing that would be very helpful in reading all the posts on the various WoS threads. Are you saying that they were falsely accused and misjudged in the first place or am I misunderstanding you?
Well.... the jury is still out but instead of being about 4 million to 2 against..... there is a swing to the other side. The route in question has had some people who are good climbers from this very Forum fail on it recently. So, since the route has still not been fully done a second time it is hard to tell, but this latest round of failure coupled with the incessant propaganda and head banging by the "newcomers" is getting the tide to turn.
Nutshell™™™ version:
Falsley accused and misjudged?: Probably and then some.
Vindicated? Maybe. Too early to tell.
Still pissed? For sure.
Route repeated?: Nope
Will they ever be able to put on their fuzzy PJ's with the feet again? Unknown. The kink is pretty deep in them boys.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Hey Johnx01, I couldn't get the link to work.
I am not from Colorado. However, you are right about why Californians look the way they do--they are glaciated.
Running a thread count up to 666 is pretty dangerous. Are you guys ready for the world wide havoc you will create?
Buzz
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Roger
Apologies, thought you were. Serves me right for believing everything I used to read in Mountain mag.
Reminds me of the first time I heard the word 'Pump'. A bunch of us weedy Brits were bouldering in the Cham Boulder, there was this huge Californian, who was busting a gut on this problem, think his name was Jeff(this was 78,79 ish). Anyway he expodes off this thing, hit the ground and said this immortal phrase
"Jeez man I've got a pump on"
God I was 20 and I was impressed!
Anyway, we adopted the phrase, come October we got back to the Uk, and I was climbing with a female friend, who I had told the story to, and after a epic struggle on some gritstone test piece, she got to the top and in a perfect Californian accent cried out
"Jeez man I've got a hard on"
Christ we laughed all winter over that on!
Cheers
-John
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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That's funny, John. Like asking for a ride when you mean a lift. Do you know Ken Wilson from Mountain Mag? I haven't seen Ken in over 30 years. I found the stack of our letters back and forth when I was the Yosemite correspondent for Mountain. We were trying to decide how to report Ray Jardine's free ascents with his 'hang dog' tactics. I should try to capture it in a post.
Best, Roger
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Roger
Met KW a few times. I admired and bought his mag alot, thought he had excellent standards(in the early days). Remember a joke going around at the time, think it was Pete Livesey who said that, American climbers were the best in the world but the Brits used two extra points of aid on everything -- " their feet".
I'll exit this thread now.....
Cheers
-John
If you see Lois, send her over.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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LEB, if you do not like my sense of humor, it is fine with me. You do not have to read my posts if you do not wish to. They are the ones that say TradIsGood on the left.
If you want to attack my character, that is ok, too. You may join a small list of folks who like to do that. You, after all, are entitled to your presumptuous opinions and may express it.
I hardly care what you think of me. But I would prefer that you do not claim to have met me, since that is obviously not true.
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Ouch!
climber
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Second Ascent of WoS
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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You know Lois,
I'm not so sure you couldn't help a lot of folks out here.
Dig,
Girlfriend,
This thread here has walloped up sumthin' quick and a lot of good, fun,
and last but not least usefull info has flowed on 'account of your unique style of inquiry.
(You got candor babe).
You could "Columbo" this WOS El Capitan 25 year bolt thing and prolly do better than all of us insiders, has beens, and newbies.
Here's the link to the latest installment, or whatever you'd call it:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=231718&f=0&b=0#msg232958
...just a suggestion.
Yours,
Tarbousier
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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6. Is Camp 4 really the hell hole as Long portrays in his book? If so, why, then, does the NPS permit it to go in that matter? Their motto is regulate everything possible; why not Camp 4? It sounds like Calcutta west or else one of the circles of Dante's inferno.
When I heard that "Friends of Yosemite" were attempting to make Camp 4 a "national historic location" I had to swallow really hard... it needed to be saved, but it seemed that what was most important was to have a place for the ghosts to be... like a broken down ramshakle mansion with busted out windows and spider webs hanging in all the corners.
It is really an abode where the past stays. When you wake up there after everyone is asleep and the wind is blowing through the pines, maybe you hear the falls booming in the spring, or a rockfall in the quiet autum, you can imagine that time has lost its direction and everyone who ever stayed is there with you, looking up past the trees into the same stary night sky, smelling the scent of the firs, thinking that this is the most wonderful place in the universe. Then rolling over and convincing yourself that tomorrow needs you to sleep right now as you drift back, eyes closed.
But it is a place which does not present its most flattering face in the harsh daylight...
ah, wilderness...
crushing humanity...
nothing like staying with a couple of hundred of your closest friends...
daring feats of agility...
don't forget to use the bear boxes!
did I forget to mention that there is music all the time (sort of music...)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Pretty close, Lois, though I don't think I can explain some of the logic gaps.
"Didn't get off the ground," = didn't go very far, up.
I have climbed half dome, several times. Most notably in a day with a partner who can't talk about it now, though she is still alive, I think. One witness dead, one being searched for on this site, another present, but I don't think he knew who/what he was witness to.
As for camp 4, you have to Want to be there. But jump in with your eyes how you want them, and have as much fun as you can; kinda like Death valley @ 120º or the South side at 2 a.m., it rocks, whether or not you are into it... Where else are you going to have THAT fun.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Logic gaps; you phrased some things in a way that suggests (irrelevent) preconcieved notions largely askew to how it all works in this granfalloon. It will take one of those here more erudite than myself to explain this, Roger?
c4? maybe google Snell's field?
"can't admit"? you mean the poopers? they could admit it, but they are choosing to deal with this in their own way, whether or not they have any idea that someone is requesting their head(s) here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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LEB, I don't know the "facts" of WoS...
...I think Deucy had the best post explaining it so far. At the time Valley climbers where putting long routes up The Captain in a minimalist style. The technology and the experience had developed to the point where almost anyone could put a route up anywhere if they had the time and the gear, and did not feel constrained to keep the drilling to a minimum. I'm not saying that WoS is such a route...
"Outsiders" coming in to do a big route, unconnected with the local scene, is something that has happened before on El Cap. Some of those routes turned out ok, some where put up in questionable style for the time. As I understand the issue WoS is a very serious route, but for what ever reason, the FA team and the "locals" weren't able to commuincate, each group making very negative assumptions about the other's motives, behavior, style and ethics. This whole situation has never been resolved, and I doubt that it will ever be.
What is immutable is that the route exists for people to go up and attempt to climb, it is yet to see a second ascent, so the jury is out on its difficulty and quality; and that the FA team is so credited.
Someday climbers may offer kudos for the boldness and vision of the climb. If that happens the FA team will be vindicated.
But in the end, it is all about the climb, or should be...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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oh, Lois,
I didn't say she couldn't admit to it -it's public record, or I wouldn't have mentioned it. I said she can't Talk about it, and as a gentleman I can't elaborate further.
-just cause I'm messing with you doesn't mean I'm not serious about that aspect. hehe
I thought your WOS analysis was great, tech flaws aside, and again, you're on to something with the, "tainted", angle.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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4. I don’t understand this whole fall from ropes business. Can someone try to explain this better? Long speaks of falling 80 feet, 50 feet, falling past the first this to the second that or whatever. I read it a few times but did not still do not “get it” What exactly is breaking these falls and why do the people get so banged up? Are they banging against the rock wall as they fall?
OK, your homework is to watch the video clip at the link below and then tell me what you don't get.... there is some great shots, one of Osman falling on a climb pulling a whole lot of gear out, I had to catch my breath as the video pauses, not letting us know whether or not he hits the ground...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TokjJrMB9qs&mode=related&search=
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Weird, I talked to my mom tonight about how I thought Dano was an inspiriation for the Character 'Roberto' in the Clinton McKinzie novels.
Lois, check them out, crime fiction with climbers, the most real stuff about climbing in mainstream ficiton ever, minimal jargon.
http://www.clintonmckinzie.com
disclaimer, my dog and I are off screen characters (fully with my permission) in one of his books.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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LEB - I haven't done a good job explaining this... I don't think the "locals" believe they own the rock, or anything. Actually reading John you know the "locals" really only owned their freedom to choose to be in the Valley and not much more.
Anyone can put a route up. Who really cares? other climbers. Some climbers put routes up and they never tell anyone about the routes. Just doing it is good enough for those souls, they don't need or want the noteriety.
Some climbers put up climbs that break through some difficulty barrier, raise the bar. Obviously, other climbers will want to test their skills and abilities and climb those routes.
Some climbers put routes up to make a statement. I think that when you do this you open yourself up to the judgement of others, but that is to be expected, it is what you seek.
Using the term "locals" is misleading, as there are few true locals. There are people who devote large portions of their life to climbing in the Valley and know it well, and understand and repect the history of climbing there. Their numbers change, times change, styles and ethics change... usually "they" know what's happening.
In the end, the climbs are there to be done.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are many interesting overtones and undertones to climbers and climber-behaviour. Not to mention the fine art of actually climbing.
It may help to think in anthropological or sociological terms. I have no qualifications in those fields, and hopefully someone more knowledgeable can say more about it.
The roots of many climber behaviours lie at least in part in adolescent male behaviours. In groups and out groups. (Perceived or real.) Sacrifice. Risk. Loyalty. Initiation rites. Competition, overt or implicit. Egalitarian, and accomplishment oriented. Ways of dressing and not dressing, talking, doing things. Attitudes towards others. Territoriality.
In relation to the thread about pecking order, climbers often don't so much as peck as pee. Males, marking territory. For example, a new route, especially if difficult, done in good 'style', or both, says to the world "I was here". Perhaps part of the eternal quest for immortality, too.
There may be parallels with hunting bands, military training groups, gangs, and other human groups. But there is a rare intensity in the climbing community. And, for all our squabbling, we are a community. A family, perhaps - though with some peculiar relations.
A lot of this is normal human behaviour. I hasten to emphasize that there's much more to it. A lot of climber behaviour speaks to the nobility and poetry of humanity.
In a few places and times, a community of climbers appears that at the time, and often later, seems to cause a paradigm shift. One such was the Stonemasters, first at Tahquitz in the early 1970s, then in Yosemite (Camp 4) in the mid and late 1970s. Another was an English 'club' called the Rock & Ice, in the 1950s, in Yorkshire, Wales and the Alps. For whatever reasons, they force the evolutionary pace, and become memorable.
Climbers are also a community which outsiders can find puzzling. If you don't climb, it can be harder to understand what it's about. Like so many things in life, the comprehension is as much in the soul and the bones as the intellect.
Anders
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: not sure if this will help on the "nobody owns the Nat Parks" thing.
Lets say that little strip of grass bordering the sidewalk near the street outside your house is public land. Your house is behind it and you will mow the grass, rake the leaves, and in general keep it nice. It does not belong to you, but you take care of of it. Then some A-hole from AnywhereUSA comes over and takes a dump on your grass. It ain't your grass.... but...... you pick up the dump and grumble and tell him that ain't the way we do it around here. Now a guy comes over and digs a hole. You fill it in.... scold the perp..... no big deal. Now a guy comes over and makes a change that is forever.... maybe a 40,000lb plug of concrete with a dash of plutonium.
The point being, some things are erasable if nipped in the bud. Some things will be a lasting monument. The Valley rock is like your strip of grass. Nobody owns it, but some people will to great lengths to protect it from what they feel is harm.
Nutshell:™™™
Leaving trash at the base of a cliff: Dump on your lawn. (Pick it up.)
Bolt near a crack: Digging a hole. (Chop it.)
WoS route on El Cap: Plutonium plug. ( game over )
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Interestig thread.
LEB, if you want to understand something about climbing, then in your case you need to go climbing, and for one reason: you stated that "you" have no interest or desire to go climbing. Going against our passive "spectator" sides, to which we are identified as "us," as who we are, involves moving outside our comfort zone into places "we" have ruled out of bounds.
Just go once, go out of bounds. That's what self mastery is all about, and that's what climbing is all about: going when "our" minds say no.
JL
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goatboy smellz
climber
up a peak without a paddle
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6. Hell hole is a relative term, an eye not peeled for "evil" rangers and hungry bears will bring you sorrow & pain.
I'll never forget my first time in the valley walking back from a day on the Apron, we stopped to sip some tea & noticed a rustling in a apple tree. "Cute a squirrel!" I thought... then the branches started bowing and creaking down, down, closer, closer... that's no squirrel!!!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"I think the issues get a bit muddled, however, when we speak of National Parks. They are located in local terrains, for sure. This means local morays and values will be present."
Yes, there are both morays and mores in the Valley, and other places people climb. Some of the former are rather toothy and slippery. A few of the latter also, possibly. A very nice pun, LEB.
Just leaving for a week - a few days in the Tetons, then Outdoor Retailer. So, barring a visit to the public library in Jackson, I won't be able to contribute further for a while.
You might be surprised at what you'd learn even by hanging around friendly (non-moray) climbers for a day or weekend, even if you didn't do any climbing. You'll get a much better feel for the community and its values. Better still, if you actually give climbing a try. It could be arranged.
Hopefully I won't run into any morays on my trip, though you never know. As the divers say "Put your hand in a crack, and you don't get it back, that a-moray."
Anders
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goatboy smellz
climber
up a peak without a paddle
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What more inspiration do yah need?
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Good one Anders. While I chided Lois for her spelling mistakes a few weeks ago, you found clever puns. Love the Dean Martin riff.
Buzz
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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LEB, at least this is a climbing thread, an improvement IMOP.
Why are the newcomers still upset 25 years later? If you where falsely accused of rape, and then were let off on a technicality so that everyone believes that you are guilty and no one will listen when you say you did not do it, then it would still hurt 25 years later, not because of what happened 25 years ago, but because people still think you are a rapist. These guys were accused of raping El Cap, and this is the first time in 25 years that anyone has listened to their side of the story. Someone managed to climbed the first 5 pitches and tried to publish his findings, but the magazines would not print it because he was saying that El Cap had not been raped. People are only listening this time because enough public interest was generated before the latest attempts and the climbing community chose their impartial judges who they would be willing to listen to.
As to why no one has climbed the WoS again, this is not because of its reputation. Many people, some very good climbers, have tried to climb the route but either were not good enough to climb it, or they underestimated how hard it was and had to turn back because they had not brought enough provisions.
As I understand it, the great revenge that these guys are looking for is for everyone to know that the person who shiit on the gear, was the person who shiit on the gear. If the perpetrator steps forward, then the act becomes a stupid dead of the culprit’s youth, and the newcombers would accept an apology and be done with it. I do not see that as an outrageous revenge. Certainly not drawing a quartering them.
As far as understanding climbing, well, can you explain to me how to perform open hard surgery without the use of pictures or any of that nasty medical jargon? If you will not try climbing, and you have made it clear that you will not, then hike to the base of a popular climbing cliff (in most cases this is worth doing just for the hike) and watch people climb. Watch people belay. Ask the climbers there what they are doing (we are much more used to people who have no clue about climbing asking these questions at the cliff than on a climbing forum). This will make a world of difference in your understanding.
Teth
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Lois, in the spirit of Teth's advice above (watching climbers) I'd suggest you go to Devil's Tower; all of your questions will be answered in a 5 minute, paved, walk. If you still have questions look up Frank at Devil's Tower lodge. He will talk to you longer than you will be able to listen. You will come away with more questions, but it should clear the ones you've asked so far.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Clearly Lois, you are not climbing material. Otherwise you would dump him. There are way more men than good climbing days.
Heehee.
Devils Tower is a National Monument in Wyoming. It is about 1800 miles from you. Take I 76 west
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Or the movie with the mashed potatoes...
which was just as dopey (imo).
Ouch! Now you've done it!
The almost climbing thread migrates into bears thread.
You know some domestic cat allegedly treed a black bear in NJ?
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I am really sorry.
Terribly so, Lois, for questioning your commitments.
I wished I had not made a joke in such an insensitive way.
Now that I see your point of view, I feel really bad.
If you like I'll delete my posts.
Geeze, Karl, this is some powerful stuff!!!
Buzz
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Ouch!
climber
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"Now that I see your point of view, I feel really bad."
LOL! Yeah Right! Roger. BWA!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Roger, if you delete your posts in this thread, I will delete mine. Maybe we can get lazide to figure out which thread in ST history had the most individual deletions...
Hey, if we all deleted our posts except for the first, we could then post and delete every day. Maybe this thread could set the record for appearing on the first page the longest. Without any answers except for the OP.
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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LEB, I am offended that you did not actually read my post. Apparently you just skimmed it and assumed you knew what I was saying without actually reading it carefully. As I read each post carefully, and find it difficult to read and write, being dyslexic, it is annoying when someone does that! I suppose on the up side you probably did not notice that I misspelled “deed” and “heart”.
Maybe if I use caps you will read it: MANY PEOPLE HAVE ATTEMPTED THE ROUTE CALLED WINGS OF STEEL. SO FAR NO ONE ELSE HAS COMPLECTED THE CLIMB. So far the best recorded attempt made it to the 9th pitch. The people who made it to the 9th pitch had to turn back because it was taking way longer than they expected and they were running out of water.
Completely aside from this whole WoS thing, what really bothers me is that you will read something and not know what was written. It means that I have completely wasted my time in writing the post. Considering the amount of effort it requires for me to write a post, I find this vary offensive. Disagree with me if you want, say I am an assshole if you must, or just don’t read the stuff I write, but don’t just read the first and last word of each sentence and assume you know what I said!
Also, if you are actually bothering to read this and I am not just wasting my time again, I said to go to a climbing cliff, not specifically Yosemite. There are probably climbing cliffs in your area which are not packed with as many tourists as Yosemite. By the way, my wife feels the same about crowds as your husband, and we found that the tourists never stray more than 100 feet from the paved trails in Yosemite, so we found it very easy to be alone with nature in the valley. But again, you don’t need to go to Yosemite. Any crag where people are climbing will do.
Teth
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Lois, Devil's Tower is in NE wyoming, 100miles west of Rapid city South Dakota. You can go there, see the climbers, and then drive another 100 miles to the Bighorn Mtns, where, if you plan right you will see almost no one. Fewer poeple than say, Dinosaur.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Rimjob, I see you're back in this forum. And you're insulting people just to be rude. You've basically ruined this thread. If you were half a man, you'd delete your posts from it.
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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LEB - "Try to understand that it is sometimes very difficult for me to follow these discussions - including your well thought out replies - because I lack some fundamental common knowledge which most everyone has."
Which is fairly obvious. No offense intended, but there you go.
Your questions could, to a large extent, be very easily answered by one trip to the rock to directly observe the very basic stuff that you are asking about. Or you could rent a few videos. Several people have (politely) suggested both. If that's too much effort, how about a trip to the local rock gym? They'll show you how the basics work.
I would submit that given the level of understanding implied by your questions, you are not going to gain any real understanding of the concepts at hand without actually going out and seeing them in action.
One observation: Preferring to have others type thousands of words to try to explain what is head-slappingly simple to understand when you actually just see it done is a little, what? Lazy? Selfish? Maybe those words are too strong, but I wonder if you as a professor would let your students get away with asking for this level of spoon feeding.
The last question that occurs to me is, if you aren't willing to go see for yourself how this stuff works, how can you be interested enough in it to type as much as you do?
Not trying to be offensive, just direct, and that's how it reads from this end.
Thoughts?
SS
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Lois - Half the people in this thread are mocking you. Others are laughing at the ones who did.
You presume to know something at all about my son's mother, not to mention raj, and me. You presume to tell him how to run his life despite not having had a single child yourself, nor having even once met him.
Why would anybody listen to your advice? You write far more poorly than Raj, your grammar wouldn't get you through 9th grade where he went to school, you can't spell, and are not bright enough to make up for it by using a spell checker. You sure would not understand the comedy channel.
I can think of many people on this forum who could give raj good advice. You are not one of them. You have never given him good advice. Look in the mirror. What do you see? Not what most people here see, I wager.
I stop now, while I am still civil.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Rimjob and TradIsSad,
Participants on this forum elect to communicate with other participants. Duh? Who are you to determine whether a participant's opinion does not warrant inclusion? Simply stay out of the thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Rajmit
You're the smartest mo'fuker in the land, but you got no heart.
Without a heart you're brain is nulled.
Even and idiot like me can see that ................
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Lois, my questions were rhetorical.
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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Interesting to follow this battle between leb and rajmit.
Lois, raj is not a child, he's a young adult and responsible for his own behavior. Calling TIS into the fray and asking him to control his offspring, is tad amount to "tattling".
I might not agree with what raj has to say, but really, age has nothing to do with how i treat his posts. I find it very old school that you would demand respect because of age.
And yes, i do have personal experience with young adults. I have a teenage son (and daughter) close to raj's age. If they were being internet trolls or a$$es i would hold them personally responsible................not me or their father.
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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my teenage son is 17 and a participant on many different forums...............mostly computer programming sites. He also has an on line comic. I feel he is mature enough to be responsible for his actions on line. For the most part, he is on line unsupervised. There['s not much difference between 17 and 18.
i believe you should deal with raj and not call the parents into the fold. And i think it's bad form to start questioning parenting skills or suggest counselling. Really, is it any of your business. deal with the troll instead
this is the interenet, things may appear differently than in real life.
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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LEB- "If you truly do not perceive a problem here then the pathology is deeper then you realize."
Funny that you mention that.
I would respectfully submit that there might also be some interesting pathology involved with the extent to which you've projected your personal life onto this site. Many, if not most, of the people here know others here personally, and those that don't are bound by a common interest in our sport. You fit neither of those definitions, yet are one of the most prolific posters here, and tend to give a lot of unsolicited personal advice to folks who don't really appear to need any. You get worked up by offhand comments (most of which are jokes that you miss) from people you don't know. I would add that I don't think that any of these things are entirely normal.
Some of your direct posts to JL, WB, RW and the like are sort of cringingly amazing to me - it's a little like me calling Ted Williams at home to ask how many points a home run scores - and then asking him to write a few pages to explain further because I don't really have any plans to ever play baseball, and I can't stand crowds long enough to go to the park to watch a game and figure it out for myself.
The graciousness of their replies is incredible to me. I can only imagine how Ted Williams would respond. OK, bad example maybe. How about Barry Bonds?
In a misguided attempt to drag this back on track, I will point out that part of the reason that people are telling you to go just once and see this for yourself is that until you do, you will have no idea of the magnitude of effort, talent, and commitment involved in doing what some of these guys do. And until you understand that, you will have no idea who you are really talking to here, and why we hold these previously mentioned guys in such high esteem.
Once again, no negative vibes attached, just honest questions. And if you'd rather continue your poo flinging match with the Rimmer, have at it. My questions will still be here when you get done.
SS
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Hey Rimmer... why don't you and your assshole dad just fukk off and beat it... mkay????
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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I have almost finished reading John Long’s Rock Jocks, Wall Rats and Hang Dogs ...
If you ever actually do finish it, could you send it to me?
Sounds like it could be a fascinating book. [honest, I have never read it.]
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Rajmit, bad! Russ Walling is old enough to be your grandfather! In other words, he is older than dirtineye.
Besides he is a climber and might or might not have dumped excrement on somebody's ropes.
Thow him thumb rethpect.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Hey Trad... give up on the comedy. You make yourself just look more pathetic. You ain't got it....
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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LEB, lets think of WoS as a hike if it will be more understandable for you. These newcomers did this hike which they found very rewording. The hike linked into an established trail after 13 miles. Because this hike was over rough terrain everyone assumed that they chopped trees down and moved rocks around in order to cross streams and get up steep sections. The route they hiked was marked by piles of rock (metaphor for bolts on the climb) which is how others could find and follow the same route they hiked. (People accused them of making too many piles of rock.)
Then many people tried to follow the same hike, but most of them could not find the trail because the terrain was so rough, and did not get past the first mile before they had to tern back. One guy got five miles into the hike but had to turn back because it was too hot and he was running out of water. When he told people that he had found that other than the piles of rock which mark the trail there were no cut trees or moved stones. However, although he was a well respected hiker, no one would believe him because they did not want to believe that these newcomers could have done the hike without cutting trees and moving rocks. Then another group of hikers got 9 miles into the hike before running out of water and turning back, but they did not tell anyone about it because they were just there for the hike and did not care about what others thought about it. Now after much arguing about the hike all the hikers decided to offer beer to Buckle Your Bouts Bob, a well known and experienced hiker, to go check out this hike and see if the hike is really the butchery of nature that people assume it is, or the challenging and almost unaltered hike the newcomers claim it is.
Bob tried the hike and got lost in the first mile. Then Bob got someone to go to the first mile marker by an easier route and blow an air horn repeatedly so that he could find his way. Even then Bob had to use a plank he had brought with him in several places to cross streams. Bob was not able to do the hike, but proclaimed to all that it was a challenging and almost unaltered hike through very rough terrain.
Hopefully I have not stretched my analogy too much, but that is something like how it went down.
Teth
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Rimmer... are you suffering from no Mommy-itis or something? Between you and your celibate Dad, you sure spend a lot of time fixated on LEB.
Maybe Ass-Dad™™ could get you both a hooker or something and drop the DSB level a bit.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Rimmy, you must face the fact that you're worthless dung and should go pester a different forum.
And TradIsMoronic: the jury is in regarding your open support and allegiance to Rimmy. Therefore, you too, must be eliminated.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Thanks for your sage advice Russ. Coming from such a seasoned veteran, I have decided to keep my day job.
Didn't you post as Susan Peplow yesterday?
Raj, you are much funnier than I. But LEB says she does not believe in god, so she may not be able to help you. Try reading the first few pages of Gray's, then ask her some questions.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Teth - that was classic. Much better than the Susan/Russ sidewalk parable.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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yawn... you two dik heads are soooooo fukking lame.
It is so sad you need to communicate across this forum with each other. How does it go so bad????
Seriously... get some kinda help. Somewhere far away.....
locker style edit..... I hear a ticking...... 3..... 2..... 1...... {{{{{boom}}}}}
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WBraun
climber
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Both of you are fools Trad and rajmit. Sure you can talk a stack O sh#t here. But you don't even know.
Once you step too far over the line, talk like that will definately get you clocked in person.
There is a good history of it here in Yose. I suggest you stop.
Too bad that's all you can do, is talk a bunch of cheap bullsh#t.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Gracias, Mussy!
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WBraun
climber
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Here it is Lois in all it's glory ...... :-)
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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LEB WROTE: "Largo, my "mountains" to climb are different then yours. We cannot control one another's destiny or force eachother to travel down our own particular chosen paths. At best, we can spend some time together at the cross roads."
No, LEB, this is just a slick, quasai-new agey justification not to get outside your comfort zone. No one's asking you to become a climber, or to walk that path, only to go ONCE, on very easy stuff, for one half hour.
The thing is you have an IDEA about all of this and so far have taken the matter up in terms of ideas. A shift out of the merely mental would cause another shift that would address the inflexibility of your mental fixation NOT to do anything diferently and to follow the path that your mind has already decided for you. I'm only asking you to step one half of a foot off that path--and you can scramble back to it in a flash, in mere minutes after roping up. You will not die. Stretch yourself in some way that your mind refuses to do and you do yourself a great favor. In many spiritual disciplines the student must everyday do something he does not want to do. It's essential. It's rut busting and drags us out of smugly accepting that we can direct our own unfolding.
So tie in and report back to us about your experience.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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"Don't tell me about how to rock climb."
That's very telling, LEB. You only want me to tell you what you want to hear.
You ever herd of Jung and how disowned selves work? The climbing community is presently holding your disowned climber, I'm jut inviting you to take back that projection but the primary self system to which you are identified refuses, and won't be "told" otherwise.
How's that for some psychobabble.
Back to work.
JL
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Rajmit, "...If I ever get hurt, DO NOT treat me" seems to state the obvious.
Buzz
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Lois, I think there is a gigantic, cosmic punch line to this thread, but I cannot put my finger on it. Something about your infatuation with climbers becoming only a vehicle to meet and greet John. I guess it worked.
However, you are in luck. John is very modest and down-to- earth, but he did tell us something about his writing in a “Largo Appreciation Thread" about 1 ½ years ago:
“Jesus, you guys are too kind. I spent all day yesterday flying back to LA from Venezuela and return to see this thread, which is very appreciated. Many of those stories you guys mentioned actually took years to write.
‘Here's what I meant by "nobody cares." I've never bothered to publically explain any of this but here goes–first drafted with all my usual typos because I've got to get on the freeway and drive to work.
‘Even though I started climbing when I was 16, I was already writing stories and studying lit. I did the whole shebang, with college and grad school in humanities and kept cranking out stories as I went along, always identifying myself as a writer who climbed not a climber who wrote. Naturally I studied all the classic folk who wrote interesting stories taking place outside the arena, so to speak. I liked Proust and Maupassant and Wolfe and Hardy as much as the next guy, but Ernest H., Conrad, London, Kipling, Melville and the like seemed closer to home. I read all their stuff countless times but the guy who taught me the most, by far, was Borges.
‘Each of the later took their actual lived experiences and used them as a springboard for stores that, while notfactually true, contained an emotional texture, visceral directness as well as characterizations that furnished an experiential encounter that somehow, someway, felt not only authentic, but awesome. Twain was another giant who did the same, salting in humor to hop up the thing (Chandler did likewise with hard boiled crime fiction, Voltaire with historical stuff, Aristophanes with classic plots twisted this way and that).
‘Anyhow, from the very start I drew from real people and real experiences and went where the story took me. I was never trying to serve up "lies" as facts, because I was never interested in facts, rather experience that felt authentic and somehow valuable, or at any rate, worth writing.
‘What didn't matter, then and now, was the whole glorification of the players involved. Who did what and how great he was, cha cha cha. The thing I cherish most about all those years of adventuring is not being able to go to a trade show where I will be recognized as a big fancy dude, but the experiences I shared with friends, none of who cared all that much about how well I climbed or kayaked or whatever.
‘I exaggerated too much in the early years because I wasn't sufficiently connected to deeper material and had to thieve my way through stories with humor and hijinks. Now I try and keep things simple and direct and plain and just lay it out there.
‘But I'm still not interested in trying to create icons or heros or stars. Mostly I try and have fun, handle heavy material with some buoyancy, keep it natural, and for the thing to resonate in human terms.
‘Gotta hit traffic now and come what may . . .”
JL
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, That you would write about John - " I hear about your feats and accomplishments and I think "Oh that's nice. These men (and some women) have done some very great things in this area. It's nice to know such talented and accomplished individuals."
Is exactly WHY we want you to climb a bit. Climbing is not and can not be like art appreciation 101. One must touch it, taste it and feel it to know it even a bit. Studying climbing without climbing is like a blind man studying oil paintings.
I live in a world of 99.99% words and .01% rock and I love John's words as much or more than anybody. But what he has done on the rock... gee how do I say it? Un Effin believable. Astounding. Amazing. Brave? Beyond understanding. Strong? Uh, like superman. Talented? Like Tiger Woods and Dan Marino put together.
And you know if you post in a golfing forumn, Tiger is not going to read it or respond to it. We on the other hand, communicate with John, (Long and Bachar) and tons of others who are the TOP people in this field. Lucky us. Really.
I would like to say I don't care if you climb or not but I can't because I do care. I want you to know in your heart what my heart feels on fine rock with trusted friends.
One day in Key Largo my son and I were SCUBA diving. I look out into the distance and see a huge Bull shark. I WANT my son to see it. Nothing at that moment is more important. I practically grab his head and turn it so that he, for the rest of his life, can say, "I once saw a ten foot Bull shark heading straight for me."
Find some pretty rock to match your pretty self. Be with some folks you like and trust and step up. It's not garanteed but there is a good chance, something amazing will happen.
Either way, keep posting because I like what I know of you and enjoy you presence here. Still a shame, you won't join me and Baba in the Valley next week. We'd show you (and your husband) a good time.
And geez Dirt, kill the tomatoes maybe?
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Well Lois, maybe you're right. It's just that in all my adventuring, I've never found anything that is as pure as rock climbing.
I mentioned SCUBA, and I like deep, dark, scary wrecks. Screwing up can mean death quickly. But even then, I almost always have at least sixty seconds to figure things out. (the average time I can hold my breath) On the rock, I may have one half a second to make a decision that could cost me my life or save my life. It's for sure not common but it can happen.
When I lay down to sleep each night, my mind wanders back to a favorite wreck off the coast of South Florida. She lies in the sand at 127 feet. I see myself splashing into the cool, clear blue water. Looking down, the suns rays stream into purple. I exhale and start to sink down. Deeper, cooler, darker.
Halfway to the ship, I begin to see her outline, her double steel masts standing. Suddenly, within one moment, all she is, becomes my world. There is not one single thought in my mind except her. Truly, not one. As I land on the deck in front of the wheelhouse, narcosis hits like two tokes on a good fatie. I am there, and nowhere else. I want to stay forever.
In about 4 minutes, I am sound asleep. If, on the other hand, I start thinking about my favorite routes, my heart pounds and my blood races and it takes a looooong time to get to sleep.
Love em both, but rock's high speed, low drag.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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This is my lasst enrty on this, LEB, but you've gotten yourself into some deep water here by drawing associations to other sports that are only in some small aspect like climbing. Certainly all things that are potentially dangerous share certain things, but climbing gives a different kind of experience for several basic reasons. First, everyone has a genetic inner prohibition against embracing heights. Second, most gravity sports are so fast moving that you can't really settle into the exposure and feeling of gravity. Climbing is slow, so you get the full dose. Third, everyone is a natural climber and you discover this in the doing. You remember, from eoons past, how to climb. It's a certain kind of dbody knowledge that unless you encounter it, you'll never understand it.
So basically the man is totally right--you can't approach climbing like you can an art appreciation course, and you simply can't get your mind around climbing in any authentic way till you tie in and cast off. The idea that you can, or can taste the gist of it walking in a desert or a jungle or wrestling sharks is simply an idea, not nearly a fact.
I find it interesting why you should steadfastly refuse the experience to join the many folks who have offered to take you out, just as I find your justifications equally odd and mental.
It's as if you've made up your mind about Paris without having ever gone there. I guess what we're all saying is that Paris is different than you think, and it's worth visiting for a spell, especially if you think it's not because as is, it's all thinking, incorrect and self-limitied thinging masquerading as free choice. Embracing an experiecne, as oppoosed to a mere idea, is good for the soul. Why not go against your own tendencies, especially those tendencies on which you have placed the most virtue? If you're really that interested, risk a little and find out for yourself, then you can tell us instead of having to imagine and contrast to what you think are valid associations but which many are trying to politely tell you are not. Karl can walk you through it with grace and ease. You won't die.
JL
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Speaking only for myself Lois, it is not about control or pissing on anything. It's about something I love so much and is so unique amongst all of the many wild and fun things I've done in 52 years on this wonderful planet.
John is right about one thing. Karl (and plenty of others) could help you experience this wonderful thing. That's all. If you tried it and didn't like it, well ok, that happens. Not to many people I've met but it does happen.
And really, I'm not trying too hard to get you to do it. But it's hard to imagine someone who knows as much (mentally) as you do (or soon will)and have never tied in.
While I'll never know what you felt doing anything, I'm not in your mind or heart, we are all human and share some common experiences. What I am saying is that rock climbing, for most humans who try it, is really, really different from anything else us humans do.
I guess you feel differently from me, but if Tiger Woods wrote me a letter and said, "Sam, I want you try golf. Here's why. Now I've got this great guy, Karl Baba, who can show you how much FUN it is. Give him a call and set something up." I'd be on the phone in 2 seconds.
You see Lois? I don't believe in god because there is no evidence to me that god exists. I DO believe in superhumans because I've seen them with my own two eyes. (everybody roll their eyes, esp. the superhumans) but damn it, what I see some humans do, is super, if not supernatural. They are as different from me as fish are different from me. They might as well be from another planet.
JL is not my idol. I won't worship what others call god so I am sure not going to worship a man, super or not. But if John Long told me to "make the move man, you can do it." I'd make the move, without a doubt.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Okay, I'll contradict myself and respond to this but I swear this is it.
I don't care if you climb or not. What could it possibly mean to me? But apparently climbing means something to you or you wouldn't put such effort into trying to understand it by way of the unusual posture of steadfastly refusing to actually do any climbing. I sensed that control issues were a flashpoint for you,
that's why I repeatedly suggested that you ease off on trying to control what your mind was telling you what and what not to do--in this case, exercising your will to NOT go climbing, then layering on a bunch of associations that you thought--but didn't actually know--gave you some insight about what climbing/climbers was/were all about.
I'm sure you have had many transcendental moments swimming and peak bagging and so forth, but so long as you prohibit yourself from tying in and casting off with the many folks who have kindly offered to take you climbing, the essence of what you seek to understand will forever remain just a thought and a speculation. And that's totally your own business and have at; however if your interest was truly beyond the superficial level of merely thinking and ruminating about climbing, you'd surely take someone up on their offer. This is a very gracious offer from a very gracious community--for world-class climbers to just say, come on out and we'll go. You'll likely never find that in any other adventure community.
So you see you've put youself in a conflicted position: you want to know, but you refuse to participate, participating being the only way to know. You've backed youself into a corner on this one, LEB, but you can climb yourself out in a second.
I could go deeper into the psychology of all of this (hooked up with the power of refusal) but I'm supposed to be working, so I should really get back to it.
Like I said, you won't die, and it won't be a self betrayal to change your mind and just go climbing. What do you have to lose, and what do you have to gain? If you rally want to know--GO! Get past yourself, tie in, pull down.
PS: And watch yourself--you have already decided in your mind what climbing is about, so you will probably be tempted to decide in your mind what the climbers who want to take you climbing are like as well--predicting the outcome and all that jive.
JL
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dear, little do you know. I would get to talking with Karl and arguing about poltics, etc. .
Little do you know... No, you wouldn't do that. It would be you, Karl and the rock, that's it.
If you have a chance to climb with Karl, grab it with both hands. It would be a special experience that you would cherish forever.
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, you write
"Karl could well have the patience of Job but, trust, me I would push him over the edge so to speak and either he or I would not come back. No, Sammy, that was not one of your better ideas."
Meet us at the gas station, Yosemite, intersection of Highway 41 and Forrest Drive, 8:30 am, Sunday. I'll bet my government pension all three of us will come back, all smiling! Just kidding, unless you really want to do it. In that case, I'll bet you a dollar.
Karl better have the patience of Job, he's taking a 5.6 jug hauler, stick-arm, old fart up some wild rock. And man, I've never looked more forward to something than this. To climb with world class climbers, in the MECCA of climbing, in the cool air. Just wow, wow, wow.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Damn, LEB...and to think in one of your earlier post you wrote,"I was not intending on commenting here."
How do you find the time to type all this foolishness?
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TYeary
Mountain climber
Baldwin Park, Calif.
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LEB
I believe it was Hemmingway who said "there are only three real sports; auto racing, Bull fighting and mountain climbing. Everything thing else is a game. ' I think that's pretty close anyway.
I've been climbing for 33 years and change. Nothing , for me, has ever come close,( save being a parent.) I think Largo has you pegged, LEB. This assurtion is based on "doing it". Something you apparentally won't do. Why NOT step out side yourself and give it a go? I have never run with the Bulls so I don't really know what it's like. I can imagine, but I'll know for sure when I do( it's on my list ). Stretching and growing is pain. But it's worth every aggravated nerve ending. But if you don't try it, you will never know.
Tony
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I am too slow on getting my posts out--got to cut back on the work thing.
On reasons not to try climbing:
Lois, I think that you are missing a logic step here. Most of us—ST campers--are climbers and we know a lot about each other just because we are climbers.
None of us care if you climb or not--as John has stated. However, you have asked lots of questions about climbing—some practical, some social, some psychological. By my reckoning, you have managed to get a pretty stellar group of current and past experts to try to answer your questions. (Personally, I haven’t been able to resist using your questions as an excuse to make up alternative explanations. None of which is for your benefit, but rather for the amusement of folks who have a history with climbing.)
Since the mechanics of climbing seem not to make sense to you, a demonstration seems in order. But we don’t climb for the gear—at least not for long—and you seem to understand that. But trying to explain why we climb at a deep level of understanding is impossible. “Because it is there,” has been the standing joke since before any of us were born.
One thing we know as climbers is that climbing triggers a link between our bodies, our physical minds, and our meta-cognition that is not common in many other pursuits. Psychologists have identified part of this process—which they call ‘flow’—with what happens when someone climbs. So the suggestions that you try climbing, or even just watch climbers do their thing, to get an idea of how it works, is practical. It would go a long way to moving along your “please explain” mantra.
Most of us have swum across lakes and hiked up steep mountains, so we have a pretty good idea of the nature of your experiences. There are quite a few posts with pictures showing these activities. We have enough practical experience to listen to someone explain their adventures to understand what they experienced. But none of us would start with hiking experiences and end up with 'only steeper' to describe climbing. Nor would we equate swimming dangerously with climbing--now Cybele might after her experience getting down form the "Leaning Tower."
Another solution to close this loop is for you decide that you have as much information about the particulars of climbing as you need.
Buzz
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Lois, in response to your post to me.
John is/was a gifted climber, as are more than a few ST campers. But the climbing feats fade and become jumbled with time. Nothing is forever. Heroic climbs become warm-ups. Old, bold styles become quaint affectations.
But what John is best known for is his ability to capture in his writing one of the peculiar facets of climbers and their outlook on life and their sport. I don't think anyone else has even come close to capturing that sense of...self-aware heroic ridiculousness or what ever it is about climbing. For sure there are some great writings about climbing feats and there are some great word smiths in the climbing world, but John sort of has a lock on the actual 'being there' element. We all laugh from a collective memory.
His description of his writing in the stuff I 'republished' above is pretty interesting.
Rajmit’s post, in the context of John’s love of Jorge Luis Borges, reminds me of the "The Library of Babel," written by Borges in 1941. Borges describes a vast library containing all possible 410-page books that can be composed in all possible combinations of our written characters. (If you ask why 410 page books, I’ll have Russ nuke the eastern seaboard.) The majority of the books in this universe are pure gibberish, but the library also contains every coherent book ever written, or that might ever be written, and every possible permutation or slightly erroneous version of every one of those books.
Rajmit’s post is the opening line on page 1 of the first book.
Prescript: this entire thread up to this post is in book 334,789,456,892 on pages 235-43.
Regarding your WoS 'panel', you can be sure that I was very hurt and offended that I was not included in your list of luminaries to arbitrate the WoS fiasco. But on the other hand, I would bet that there will be many wonderful opportunities to spew, ridicule, and mock the judges’ findings. So, on balance I don’t mind sitting this one out. (This shouldn’t be miss-understood as a lack of interest. I do care about the outcome and I am certain that I will develop strong opinions.)
TL-C, Roger
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Ouch!
climber
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Lois, there is a pattern developing here. Every time Largo, Roger, or numerous others lay waste to your arguments and pin you down, you wiggle off on a different slant or appear to take offense at some perceived slight. This tactic is very familiar to me. I used it extensively years ago when I was a notorious usenet troll. Of course, I have since reformed into a perfect gentleman.
In my opinion, you don't need to talk to Largo. you need to talk to Juanito.
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Ouch!
climber
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Lois, they are simply telling you if you would teach a dog, you must first know what you want the dog to know.
Or...
You gotta walk a mile in my shoes to feel the nails.
Or..
You can't taste the sweetness of the fruit by merely looking at it.
Or..
Largo writes his life. He can give you a peek into it but you cannot possess it.
You are a puzzle because you come to a climbing forum and express interest in climbing people but you have no interest in what they do that makes them who they are.
And with that, you can add me to your creel.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Okay, one last thing--allow me to offer this and contradict myself again (not to respond). I do it often.
LEB wrote: "I am feeling so frustrated that I can respect everyone's individual personalities and needs and yet can no one can respect and accept mine and accept that that I am different from them."
In spite of all your reading and thinking about climbing, you've still missed one key thing. It is summed up by the Marine Corps dictum that basic training is intended to destroy the identities that recruits brought with them and to fashion them into warriors. This is an extreme case, but there's a point there. You see, LEB, EVERY climber's personality told them not to go up an a big wall, for instance. Big wall and adventure climbing is not natural for anyone. But climbers generally refused to be slaves to the identifications of their personalities and to push past them and grow. The personality is an artificial sense of self that lays down rules saying this is what "I" like and should do or not do. The soul says otherwise and so people go against their fears and jump up on El Cap anyway--and they are transformed. Climbing, at bottom, is not a physical exercise but a transformational drill that pulls you out of your personality and makes room for other stuff to surface. So no real climber is going to cow tow to something they have themselves battled against their whole lives--the personality you so highly cherish. SO the more you say no and refuse the transformational experience and say, for you, it lies elsewhere, the more we're all going to say baloney, you're here, amongst us, so avail yourself the chance to move past yorself and all your fears and priorities and find out something new for the simple reason that your personality says you shouldn't. If you're looking for a crowd to congradulate you for refusing the offer and to understand why you are stuck in a perspective that refuses to let you expand--even for a fricking hour with a toprope held by our own Karl Baba--you are likely asking for something that you will never receive, and shouldn't.
I have to ask myself: what kind of life experiences would a person have to have to simply dig her heelws in and flatly refuse to even entertain the idea of trying. It has nothing to do with your personality being afraid or adverse with the idea of climbing. In fact, that's the very reason TO try, to go aginst your own rigid beliefs and ways. Everone who ever got into climbing had to struggle against those parts of their personality that said "Forget it. I'm not going."
And here you have people encouraging you to move out of being slave to that perspective, and who will take you by the hand and show you, but verily, the woman simply won't budge.
Imagine if you HAD to go climbing? What might happend to our personality? Since you don't know what the effect will be you couldn't know. What I think frustrates many here is that folks DO know the effect, and are encouraging you because they know the effect can only be good for you despite what your personality tell s you otherwise.
I'm not interested, and It's not for me are simply escape hatches for the personality to remain just as it is, to control everything down to the last detail and to call that virtue and self-knowledge and integrity. To most of us, we call that being stuck.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Actually, LEB, I've done almost all of those things that you mentioned, and plently more, as have a lot of folks on this list. Actually you have the transformational game in reverse (IME). You don't go towards anything--that's the ego trying to direct your unfolding, and that never works. Transformation happens when you move out of where you're stuck, then the vacume is filled, but not with what you thought.
But tell you what, I'll do, with you, any activity that you want, any whatsoever, and in return, you will go climbing, once, with Karl Baba.
I'm good to go. And you?
JL
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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Lois -
The thing that you seem to keep missing is, that JL isn't the one asking hundreds of questions on an energy balancing website, and then seeming surprised that people want him to try it.
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Ouch!
climber
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Lois, where your argument fails is You asked them for something. No one asked you for anything. Well..Maybe Russ suggested some options.. LOL!
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, are we good enough cyber friends to laugh at one another? Cause ha, ha. Largo gotcha. But damn girl, you like win and then win again. Climb with Baba and roadtrip with JL.
This has truly been fun.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nice offer, John, very nice. Will you extend it to me?
Want to have a beer together? Roy says it is trans...something or another. Usually the local brews are pretty good, so I don't try to remember the names.
Then I'll go climbing with Karl.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Some serious cyber stalking going on here.rg
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Ouch!
climber
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Roger, you don't play fair. I trolled you twice with the flattop. You didn't bite.
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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And I of you.
I think you are misconstruing a lot of people's remarks as encouragement to climb, when in fact they are trying to express to you that they think your logic, for lack of a better word, is a little off.
Whether you climb or not is irrelevant to me, but like some others, I am fascinated by the weirdness of this whole debate.
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Ouch!
climber
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Wow! Lois. Reading the thoughts of other people can lead to misconceptions. What if you read Locker's by mistake and attributed them to me? Locker would be pissed for sure.
Edit.....As to the questions you asked...Well, you answered them for me.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Lois, I didn't know that you had an interest in cartoons. You should try it sometime. Ouch! can set you up. Just give it a shot, then you'll understand why Ouch! is the way he is. (You can keep your own hairdo.)
Hey Ouch!, I appreciated your JB in flattop and cuffs. Cool looking dude--just like old times. Jim would try anything, not like some people we know. Now, can you dress him in a cutting edge 2006 outfit?
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chuffer
climber
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Ok, I've been registered here for YEARS, yet I don't believe I've ever posted a single thing up to this point. I can take it no more. LEB, here are exact cut and paste copies of the first four questions you posed in the opening post of this thread:
"1. Am I correct in concluding that the “leader” of a climb goes up “unprotected” from possible falls and hazards to a specified point (per his judgement) and then fixes some bolt or something in the wall. Meanwhile, his partners cheer him on encouraging him to go higher and take yet more risk? Could this interpretation possibly be correct? If so, with friends like that, who needs enemies?
2. Does everyone who climbs El Cap drill or pound bolts and metal hardware into the wall!!!!! Yikes! Given the number of climbers, this great monolith must be literally covered with hardware. What happened to “leave no trace?” Can I possibly have interpreted this correctly? If so, that is terrible. How is this not defacing our national treasure?
3. What precisely is a “route” and who passes the final judgement on whether xyz person or persons has forged said route? How do we *know* that someone has not climbed in that particular way before? Does it get “reported” to someone or some organization so that the pioneers, as it were, get credit?
4. I don’t understand this whole fall from ropes business. Can someone try to explain this better? Long speaks of falling 80 feet, 50 feet, falling past the first this to the second that or whatever. I read it a few times but did not still do not “get it” What exactly is breaking these falls and why do the people get so banged up? Are they banging against the rock wall as they fall?"
Now these are questions that are very difficult to effectively explain in text only, or even with the aid of pictures for that matter. However if you were to go out with Karl (or whoever for that matter) and climb just ONE route, or hell even just WATCH him climb one route the answers would be perfectly clear. What has been battled and argued about in cyberspace for DAYS would literally take you less than 1/2 hour to understand at the base of a cliff. I believe that this fact is what originally prompted this whole "you should just go climbing" thing. I don't believe that the genesis of the suggestion had one single thing to do with anyone believing you have some latent desire to go climbing, the thread just seems to have evolved that way, mostly through your own arguments.
Whew, I feel better. It's back to the woodwork for me now. By the way LEB (or whoever you are), this is truly a first class troll. This one is certainly worthy of the hall of fame.
J
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Ouch!
climber
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"I am very sexually uninhibited "
Thanks for that. Somehow it doesn't seem to fit into the debacle but thanks anyway.
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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weirder and weirder
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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JL, don't answer the door.rg
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Ouch!
climber
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"you'll understand why Ouch! is the way he is."
I wish someone who understands would explain it to me. I can't quite put my finger on it. :-))
Maybe there's a cure for it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Lois,
John hasn't made himself a fixture in a pagan transcendental corn cult forum whereas you, on the otherhand, have planted yourself here in a premiere climbing forum. Is that ok? Sure, to a point - and that is when you repeatedly miss and or duck the whole point of why all these people are here so you can happen to avail yourself of them.
And just so you're clear, if you can hike you can climb something, period. In this matter we actually are the domain experts and collectively know about all there is to know about the capabilities and limitations of the human body, extremities, and mind on rock. Where we do have to occassionally pause and evalutate things on a case-by-case basis in when it comes to emotions and from your posts here on ST it's abundantly clear you pass muster on that front as well.
Bottom line. Lurk more and ask fewer questions if you really aren't interested in the answers - because some of the answers here only come at the end of a rope and are not available on a pixel-by-pixel basis. You now have a bunch of luminaries willing to see you through the experience, get your head out of the sand, stop making lame excuses and go climbing if this community is really of interest to you...
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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That picture is f'in funny. Admit it!
I didn't ask why you had so much free time. You'll have to pin that one on someone else.
And, I didn't say weird was bad. You made that connection. I think you're about a half bubble off plumb, true, but so are most of my friends, so I can't hold that against you.
I'm not judging, and neither are most other people. You're reading that in yourself.
I am merely intrigued by the stream of consciousness.
Cheers!
SS
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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LEB, I'm very intuitive & something isn't right here.Sick mind??? You can't take direction; you won't even consider it.But you ask how & why when the answer will only take a lovely day with Karl or Largo. Most people on this site would pay money to climb with a stone master. But you ask;but never do. Come clean, you're easy to read.rg
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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I think you're safe from having anyone else bother you with climbing stuff on this climbing site -- until you ask your next climbing question.
There's always 10% that don't get the memo.
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WBraun
climber
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Don't you people get it?????
She's not a f*#king rock climber nor will she ever be nor does she want go on the rock even if it's the only place where some of the answers are.
She just likes to be social here with subjects that interest her here.
Jeez it's not so fuking hard to understand. She could even be your mother hanging here because she loves you.
And you thought she's relentless .........
-:)
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Actually, LEB is full of it. But most likely the best troll to ever come upon supertaco.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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LEB, Please re-read what you wrote in the last post. You aren't intuitive are you?? What does this have to do with who you like or not.If you had to choose someone, who would it be?? Come on thats sixth grade mentality.You're a very smart lady. I was using a play on words in my earlier post to get insight on who you really are. I have observed you lurking back & forth in threads trying to get the poster back to your thread to answer your questions.To me thats quite odd.What are you doing with these threads?? Are you printing them; you seem to get really peeeeeeeved when it gets deleted.In the same manner a student would if they lost a paper they had worked many hours on & forgot to hit the "save" button......You have everybodys email address why do you keep everthing in the forum format??If you are truly sincere I apologize, but you have a motive.rg
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Whew, I am sure glad that is settled.
So Lois, tell us more about "energy balancing."
Buzz
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Roger, my old friend and cad that he is, wrote: "Want to have a beer together? Roy says it is trans...something or another. Usually the local brews are pretty good, so I don't try to remember the names."
I would never extend that offer to a climber, Roger, because we're all too weird. But I knew from LEB's conversational style she was a scholastic (generally very unadventurous) so I figured at worst I'd have to go see a bad play or someone reciting dogeral with a git-tar back up.
But LEB is slippery as an eel and absolutely rigid in what her mind tells her to do and who she is. So she tried to deflect my offer by "conceeding" that we were in an argument and that I had "won." Bollocks. For starters, I now and then binge on a thread and it's always for the same reason--I'm at my computer trying to work for for whatever reason, I just can't. It happens about once a month and it happened to day. I wasn't trying to win anything. I was trying to get LEB our of her chains, which she considers free will, but notice how far she has moved. Not an inch. I pretty much knew she never would because I know the type--but I kept at it and that's my own stubborness and foolishness.
But hey, prove me wrong and answer the question LEB: Will you go climbing, once, with Karl Baba? If not, kindly state what you are afraid of so we can all respond. And don't say it's not a fear thing because it always is--of that you may be sure.
JL
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Lois, I apologize if I was a dog in the pack. But to some extent, I guess that's a bit what climbers are. Dingus says "it's tribal" and that's true too I think. Remember my reference to "a group of Hell's Angels"?
So enjoy the fruits of battle. Have a nice glass or two of wine. Get you husband to brush your hair. Relax. And enjoy the fact that you were offered the prize of a lifetime (for many of us) for free that you don't have to accept.
Really cool I think. And I do believe that the offers were made because people like you, not simply as a challenge or demand to "learn" something. I know for a fact my offer to meet me and Karl Sunday was just that. Which is stll open, by the way.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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You know John, we had this conversation with Lois last year. She was asking too many questions and not emptying her cup, so to speak, to accept the answers, so we tried to get her to go to New Paltz and climb. She wouldn't budge then either.
She just likes us for our minds. But I wasn't born yesterday. That's how it always starts; pretty soon you are in way over your head.
Anyway, I was a little nervous that you might be found...um regressed and going on about your past life--not the one I know about but something all together new and strange, channeling all sorts of bizarre, ancient history.
The way I figure it, Lois' decline may have saved you more than a "bad play or someone reciting dogeral with a git-tar back up." By her own admission she has had morays with her boyfriend in the 60s. That sounds really twisted and dangerous, if you ask me. (Maybe she was speaking Italian.)
Bset, Roger
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"There are so many desirable men here that if I were forced to pick thge one I liked the best, it would be a very hard choice."
-just wait till the bathing suit competition!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ROTFLMFAO! Jaybro, you are too much... oh the image that flashed in my mind..
...better we all meet on the banks of the Merced in the Valley at night, a quarter moon might still be too much illumination.
Lois, just a hint, if you start a thread "Perspectives on John Long's Climbing Book" on an internet forum whose majority come from the climbing community, you will get a climbing perspective on John's book. Not only that, but John's literature works on many different levels, and to climbers he captures in words what they feel but cannot speak, for as soon as the words are formed they realize how wanting the descriptions are...
In the Introduction to "RJs,WRs&HDs" John describes in a number of places something that you may have overlooked, but probably reveals an essence which may be hard to grasp.
The Introduction starts: "A young man, barely twenty, runs his fingers over a one foot section of crack. So zeroed in is his face that his mother would not recognize him."
Next paragraph: "A thunderbolt could not break his focus, though his awareness rolls out like the rings formed by a pebble dropped into a pond... He knows that if the piton [he is attached to in standing in slings] goes, it's trouble: The nearest ption that can break his fall is 60 feet below him."
"He feels every inch of the remaining 800 feet soaring overhead like a great gray wave. But he knows no more than what he can see, for no one has ever climbed this section of the wall. He's dead reckoning."
"Occasional flashes of fear and loneliness, strong as they are, cannot pierce his focus; but what he can't acknowledge, he feels turning deep in his belly.
He is aware of that the section of rock 18 inches before his eyes is an infinitesimal bit of the biggest chunk of exposed granite in the world: El Capitan...
...There is no yesterday, no tomorrow, just the electric now, and the fragile copper swedge supporting his weight, and the hammering in his chest, and the realization that half a mile up a wall of naked rock, life and death have merged.
The reasons he is climbing are deeper than words can go. He only knows that it is not desire or even skill that keeps him moving, but obligation. He has to climb this 'big wall'; The reasons, whenever stated, never sound quite right, and only matter to none climbers anyway. To him, what matters is that this copper swedge holds, and the next one after that, all the way to the summit, still two days away, maybe three."
I don't know but you may have thought this was overly dramatic, but it actually falls far short of the actual experience. I believe that klaus compared doing his routes to "defusing a bomb," can you imagine that? if you have only one way to get it right or else you are blown out of existence your focus would be intense, you have to chase all of the morbid thoughts into a corner of your brain and continue to function, flawlessly. You take a long time, and you focus on the job at hand because you're dead otherwise.
I have been on climbs where the hours in the day pass without notice, making such slow progress that the shadows almost perceptively move across the rock, the long shadows of the morning disappearing in the noon glare and reappearing in the golden evening. Just what was I doing? how could progress be so slow?
I don't know, it is just the focus...
Only one other experience I've had came close, and it was chemically induced, to watch the shadows of the chess pieces hide from the sun all day long, and the grain of the wood change texture and nature under the lighting... just sitting still and watching, all day long.
But I'll take climbing over that or anything else for those feelings.
It can only be partially described, but the understanding is inferior... the only way to know is by doing.
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Jenna Johnson
climber
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Did anyone else hear that report today on NPR about the Shiites in Iraq killing the goat herders for not diapering their goats? Just too provocative for those repressed bastards. No kidding. NPR.
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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There must be some righteous guys running around with bare heads now.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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"Now PLEASE find me a more sexy and sultry drama queen and take that ugly one down. "
The drama queen is ALWAYS ugly. When they have the trappings of beauty, it is merely an illusion for the dumb, that they might stomach the fact that they are ingesting the much hated brussels sprouts of childhood, and telling themselves they like the taste.
Lois - why do you obstusely refuse to "get it" yourself - that telling you to climb has absolutely NOTHING to do with expecting you might enjoy the thing?
You are a taker, Lois. A self-absorbed taker. You are merely a shadow of that which is Rajmit in his impudence, of Juan in his prejudice. Nothing more, nothing less, when you act with such impudence.
You're coming to the table empty-handed, thinking you can get by on your (in your opinion)good looks and charming refusal of comprehension. Stomp your feet some more and insist you get your way. Some guys get a rise out of it.
The game goes on.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Leave Largo alone LEB!!! He's mine mine mine mine mine!!!
If I catch you on his doorstep ogling him, you're dead meat.
Carry on.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Please stop trying to convince LEB to climb. As she has stated 1001 times on this forum alone (soon to be 1002), she is not interested. She has no athletic abilities or aspirations. Climbing is an *athletic* activity.
The symphony of 10,000 straight-pipe Harleys climbing at the hairpin turn, or a quartet of Happiegrrrls "imdoginators" doing their best piccolo sonata would be sweet music compared to hearing LEB walking down the carriage road.
Apologies to Happie in advance.
BTW. The Gunks are *very* *much* *more* *crowded* than any other climbing areas in the country. It is only by selling day passes that the crowds can be held down to rock concert numbers.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Lois, The Crimpster, happie, and JJ sorting out road tripping and who gets whom. Ummmm...is Janet coming along?
"People,
People who need people,
Are the luckiest people in the world
...
A feeling deep in your soul
Says you were half now you're whole
No more hunger and thirst
But first be a person who needs people..."
I'm channeling something. It's a little scary. Maybe the Tarbuster can help.
TL-S, Buzz
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Werner is right. Lois is not interested in any of this stuff. All she has to do is spend $13 on the video, which has been linked early on in this thread, and have all of her questions answered. Her fun comes in making you guys jump through hoops. She even got Largo to offer to road trip with her.
More power to her.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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"prick" You may be on to something there. I think my wife,kids & the dogs where thinking that also.I had a good 2 mile swim this morning & washed it all away.rg
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Dayum. It's got to hurt to sleep on that.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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TiG, you don't "remember when"???
Swapping beta, discussing training and ethics with the likes of Wolfgang Gullich.... . . . hell, we even got John Bachar up here (and “hang doggin’” to boot)!
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/
There's a photo lurking somewheres...
Largo--(Longo?)--well said.
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