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BASE104
Big Wall climber
norman, OK
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 22, 2003 - 04:13pm PT
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This is mainly directed at Chris. You recommend using Rawl Spike or Rawl Drive 1/4" X 1" for rivets nowadays. I have been searching high and low and can't find them anywhere. If you could point me in the right direction, that would be great. I'm not exactly a drill-meister. I think I've placed less than five bolts in over twenty years of climbing. I get someone else to do it. I just like having them in an emergency bag. Something to tuck in the haulbag if something really bad happens.
I also can't find the simple Rawl holder anymore. It seems even Fish is out of them.
Back in the late seventies, we had a climber visiting for a couple of years, and he would use brass 5/16" machine nuts. They are mint to this day. I'm sure brass is weaker, but we didn't think that was what rivets were for; to be strong.
And for what its worth, the belay underneath the Zorro roof had FOUR bolts when I did it. We thought we were stylin', with all those bolts.
Mark
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 22, 2003 - 08:41pm PT
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Don’t use Rawl Spikes!!! Use the regular Drive (split shaft buttonhead). The Spike bolts are crap; I have tested them. Rawl doesn’t make stainless Drive bolts so you’ll have to settle for carbon steel. Go with ¼” x 1 ½” and don’t put a hanger on it if used as a rivet; you can put a washer on it, however. Be sure to use a ¼” bit – do not use a 17/64” bit!! I still prefer 5/16” machine bolts for rivets on FAs.
Any good hardware store should be able to order a box of 100 for you - don't know about smaller quantities.
Forget that old Rawl holder. Go with a Hurricane!
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Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
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Feb 22, 2003 - 10:31pm PT
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Forget the Hurricane. Get a Petzl Rockpecker.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 22, 2003 - 11:40pm PT
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Why Petzl? How many different drill bit sizes will it accept?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Feb 22, 2003 - 11:54pm PT
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The Petzl is nice and light, and you can switch bits quickly (SDS bits only).
However, the bit switching mechanism pinches your hand really bad if you don't watch out. You can solve this with a tightly-wrapped piece of climbing tape (really tight or it starts pinching the hand even with the tape).
I've used both extensively, the Hurricane is way better if you're doing a lot of bolting, but I'd bring the Petzl anyday in an emergency kit. Five 1/4" bolts, two bits, and the Petzl fit in a very small super-light bag.
Of course if you like non-SDS bits the Hurricane is the way to go.
Greg
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Feb 24, 2003 - 02:13am PT
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>>>Don’t use Rawl Spikes!!! Use the regular Drive (split shaft buttonhead).>>>
Discontinued years ago. All that is left is old stock. The SPIKE was their replacement.
Russ
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 24, 2003 - 12:26pm PT
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Hey Chris, thanks for the link! All of you should check out this link; it provides great images of the bolts that Rawl/Powers manufactures and the differences between specific bolts.
As far as rivets and minor belay bolts go, if we will only be able to get ¼” Spike bolts and the split-shaft Drive bolts are discontinued, we’d better buy up the last of ‘em or we’ll be screwed. The Spike bolts are total garbage. Have you guys tried to place one? They are ok in the 3/8” size (stainless) but the ¼” ones won’t hold sh#t. While testing many different kinds of bolts, I found that the Spike bolts went in way too easily (in ¼” hole) and came out easily when tested. Compared to the Drive bolts, there was a HUGE difference. I have a bunch of the things and wouldn’t even place them for body-weight rivets - scrap metal as far as I’m concerned. There isn’t enough surface area in contact with the rock; you can hand-place them about half way into the hole and only a few hammer taps are required to send the thing.
Yikes!!! Don’t use ‘em in the ¼” size!!! I have no idea why Rawl would substitute this type of bolt for something that has been proven over decades. As far as surface area contact of metal to rock, 5/16” machine head rivets win by a mile. They are placed in a 17/64” hole (half as deep as that required for a ¼” x 1 ½” Drive bolt) and can be stronger than a ¼” Drive in both shear and pull-out. I think the next thing to look into is stainless 3/8” machine bolts, placed into 21/64” or 11/32” holes. The key will be to see if a stainless alloy exists that is strong and durable enough. Time for more research.
ps - Russ, If the Drive bolts are discontinued, why are they still listed on the Rawl/Powers web page? Can you still order them? Also, are you still selling those 5/16" machine bolts that are threaded on the entire shank, as pictured on your site? Threads will cut rivet hanger cable and are weaker than bolts with a non-threaded section near the hex head. These non-threaded types are available in 1 1/4" lengths (or maybe it is 1 1/2", I forget which) but you need to chop off about a 1/4" - 1/2" or so of the threaded end with bolt cutters. Grinding the end clean may be necessary. I don't know if you'd want to sell this kind of rivet, pre/post mod, but they are much better. The 5/16" buttonhead pictured on your site is a Fixe death bolt. Please don't sell these if you have any more. How about selling stainless 3/8" bolts, or do you already? Your site is killer; thanks for the resource!
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BASE104
Big Wall climber
norman, OK
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2003 - 12:29pm PT
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Thanks, Chris. I don't plan on doing any drilling, just need a few for the emergency bag. I have a stack of machine heads, but now I find they are verboten. Like I said, there was a visiting guy from New Hampshire here about 25 years ago who used brass 5/16 button head machine heads. They are still mint. Brass is weaker than steel, but more corrosion resistant. They are totally bomber for body weight stuff. I'd sleep off one in a heartbeat.
Mark
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 24, 2003 - 02:58pm PT
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I note that Fixe sells a "rivet" that looks exactly like the old Rawl Buttonhead. Is 8mm by 40mm which translates to .3149" and 1.5748" long. So, your 5/16 (.3125") drill "should" work for placing these (might be nice to experiment first)?
For an emergency bolt kit, I prefer a 3/8" by 2.25" stainless stud which can be placed as shallow as an inch or so (just drive the nut down the threads...). But, most of my bolting isn't on granite, so would take a bunch longer time to drill.
Simpson makes 1.4" diameter stainless steel wedge anchors in 1 3/4 length out of both 304/303 and 316 stainless steel. www.simpsonanchors.com. Powers fasteners makes a Power stud that is 1/4" by 1 3/4" as well.
I wonder...on good rock, like granite, if it makes sense to drill bat hook holes and every third or fourth hole put in a shallow bolt (like a 3/8" by 2 1/4" stud) when it comes to routes which require a rivet ladder? A custom filed BD/Chouinard Skyhook can fit quite snugly in a 3/8" hole, and you don't have to worry about the strength of a rivet/spike and how long it might or might not last. More function in the long term?
Brian in SLC
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Feb 24, 2003 - 04:48pm PT
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Hey Brian,
Don't use the 1/4" wedge bolts, they will work but sooner or later will break, and you can't re-use the hole. That bolt is what the Uriostes used in Red Rocks (the carbon steel version) and they are a pain for replacement since they always break (actually we got out 2 out of about 400+). Stainless will be softer and for body weight are probably OK, but will stretch and break sooner or later, then the hole is not re-usable (without power drill grinding through the broken bolt).
Also, the Fixe 8mm copy of the 5/16" Rawl Drive (discontinued) really suck, they blew the metallurgy and the bolts are soft. Normal 5/16" are a pain to pull, but the Fixe copies break as soon as you try to pull them (also the heads are severely dented from installation while the Rawls were never dented so much). Kevin Daniels said he was pulling them, but I still see them in a lot of catalogs.
I hope Russ is only talking about the 5/16" Drives...
Greg
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 24, 2003 - 05:31pm PT
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Greg Said:
>Don't use the 1/4" wedge bolts, they will work but sooner or later will break, and you can't re-use the hole. That bolt is what the Uriostes used in Red Rocks (the carbon steel version) and they are a pain for replacement since they always break (actually we got out 2 out of about 400+). Stainless will be softer and for body weight are probably OK, but will stretch and break sooner or later, then the hole is not re-usable (without power drill grinding through the broken bolt).
Contemplating options for the 1/4 inch crowd. Still, I wonder if better to drill bat hook holes, then every several holes drill out to accept a standard bolt or stud (dislike studs for the lack of re-use you mentioned above).
Greg said:
>Also, the Fixe 8mm copy of the 5/16" Rawl Drive (discontinued) really suck, they blew the metallurgy and the bolts are soft. Normal 5/16" are a pain to pull, but the Fixe copies break as soon as you try to pull them (also the heads are severely dented from installation while the Rawls were never dented so much). Kevin Daniels said he was pulling them, but I still see them in a lot of catalogs.
Ahhh...was wondering about those. Thanks for the update. Will stay away (and still have some old Rawl studs, but, probably destined for the bottom drawer).
Thanks again, Greg and Chris (and thanks for the recent letter Chris...!), especially the ASCA efforts.
I wonder if anyone has tried the shorter 4" SDS drill bits from Hilti for the Rocpecker...? Inexpensive source? Fixe?
So...rivets...don't use 'em? Are machine bolts the option?
Brian in SLC
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Feb 25, 2003 - 01:28am PT
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>>ps - Russ, If the Drive bolts are discontinued, why are they still listed on the Rawl/Powers web page? Can you still order them? >Also, are you still selling those 5/16" machine bolts that are threaded on the entire shank, as pictured on your site? Threads will cut rivet hanger cable and are weaker than bolts with a non-threaded section near the hex head. These non-threaded types are available in 1 1/4" lengths (or maybe it is 1 1/2", I forget which) but you need to chop off about a 1/4" - 1/2" or so of the threaded end with bolt cutters. Grinding the end clean may be necessary. I don't know if you'd want to sell this kind of rivet, pre/post mod, but they are much better. >>
Yep and not really worried about it, but I do believe what you are saying. Too busy playing golf to chop off 1/4" of each rivet. Side note: not sure about them being weaker. I found that the start of the thread area was very weak on the smooth collar rivets and right at the junction had a very high failure rate. YMMV.
>>The 5/16" buttonhead pictured on your site is a Fixe death bolt. Please don't sell these if you have any more.>>
Long gone at not even listed on the site. I have also found that FIXE stuff is mostly overpriced sh#t. Flat out. The 5/16 buttonhead type bolt was the most botched piece of metal ever created. Total POS.
>>How about selling stainless 3/8" bolts, or do you already?>>
Yes and no... I order them for guys, and will probably list them on the next update.
>> Your site is killer; thanks for the resource!
you're welcome!
Russ
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 25, 2003 - 08:06pm PT
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Right on Russ.
“I found that the start of the thread area was very weak on the smooth collar rivets and right at the junction had a very high failure rate.”
Did the bolts w/o the smooth collar have the same failure rates as those with?
“Long gone at not even listed on the site. I have also found that FIXE stuff is mostly overpriced sh#t. Flat out. The 5/16 buttonhead type bolt was the most botched piece of metal ever created. Total POS.”
Ha ha. (ala Simpsons) I agree. Glad you don’t sell them.
I think Fixe bolt hangers are about the worst out there. My tests also confirmed this. I’ll try to write something up and post it here.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Feb 25, 2003 - 10:44pm PT
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>>Did the bolts w/o the smooth collar have the same failure rates as those with?>>
In a very small sample, no, they had a higher failure rate. The continuous thread ones just did not have the problem of shearing right at the smooth/thread junction. I would bet that a better quality rivet (grade 8?) would give different results and a larger sample size would help to flat line the results.
None of them are all that great though.
Russ
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scooter
climber
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Feb 26, 2003 - 03:27pm PT
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What about all the Petzl stuff. They make a myriad of fasteners, don't they?
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scooter
climber
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Feb 26, 2003 - 03:32pm PT
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What about all the Petzl stuff. They make a myriad of fasteners, don't they?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 27, 2003 - 02:48am PT
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Maybe we should define failure rate. Did the collared bolts break at a significantly lower force? I try to place them so that the threads are buried and the collar is well seated in the hole. I don’t know how much this helps with respect to leverage on the specified weak point, i.e. the collar/thread junction, but I do see your point. A fully threaded bolt will bend evenly in an arch as where a collared bolt will be more rigid and snap at the junction. Based on what I have chopped, this appears to be true. I still think that machine bolt rivets with a smooth collar are better. But then again, I never give up…
Does Petzl make anything in the rivet category? Anyone?
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Feb 27, 2003 - 12:23pm PT
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Outside of rivets, what options exist for hand drilled belay or protection bolts that can be placed in a reasonable amount of time? I'm thinking primarily of drilling on lead on alpine rock. Are there any 5/16" or equivalent options that are not POS?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Feb 27, 2003 - 12:45pm PT
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>>Outside of rivets, what options exist for hand drilled belay or protection bolts that can be placed in a reasonable amount of time? I'm thinking primarily of drilling on lead on alpine rock. Are there any 5/16" or equivalent options that are not POS? >>
Wild generalizations to follow:
New alpine route.... probably crap, and repeated maybe once in a decade. Best bolt: Rawl 1/4" buttonhead. Great for you, death for all that follow (maybe, but unlikely).
New alpine route.... hidden gem (highly unlikely) that people will flock to and do for years and it will even show up on old fat guys wish lists. Best bolt: Rawl 1/4" buttonhead. Then after the route gets worked for a decade or two, send a check to the ASCA and earmark the $$$$ to fix it up.
Other options: drill 3/8" by hand. Drill 1/4" then have your girfriend meet you on the summit with a fat Bosch set up, rap the route, and replace all the bolts. Don't drill..... just keep running it out. Abandon the entire project until something good shows up.
Russ
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Feb 27, 2003 - 01:04pm PT
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>>Maybe we should define failure rate. Did the collared bolts break at a significantly lower force? >>
Ok... I'll define it. Set A (collared) all broke at the junction. Failure rate 100%.
Set B (threaded) I remember universal massive bending before failure, but with enough force, all broke. Failure rate 100%
That being said, I use the the threaded ones.
>>I try to place them so that the threads are buried and the collar is well seated in the hole. I don’t know how much this helps with respect to leverage on the specified weak point, i.e. the collar/thread junction, but I do see your point.>>
A spot of theory: I tend to think the damage is done while driving the rivet into the hole. Something happens at the junction to weaken that point. The collar area is more rigid than the threads, and during the pounding there is deformation at the junction that severely weakens the rivet. That junction is subject to a force concentration that it never recovers from.
>>A fully threaded bolt will bend evenly in an arch as where a collared bolt will be more rigid and snap at the junction. Based on what I have chopped, this appears to be true.>>
Ok... you have seen it in action, and we have tried to describe why it happens. Fact: the collared ones break at the junction. Threaded ones bend plenty.
>>I still think that machine bolt rivets with a smooth collar are better. >>
Hmmmmm...... is this because of the threads "cutting" theory on rivet hangers (still unproven) or you just like dicey rivets?
>>But then again, I never give up… >>
Maybe you should..... you said it yourself, "The collared ones broke a the junction".
Side note: The force needed to break any of these is probably well above any load we put on them under normal use. So, unless you are ripping onto rivets, either one should work well over its lifetime. I am more worried about rivets coming out of the hole than I am about them shearing off or cutting the rivet hanger. YMMV
Russ
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mike hartley
climber
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Feb 27, 2003 - 02:24pm PT
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"Outside of rivets, what options exist for hand drilled belay or protection bolts that can be placed in a reasonable amount of time?"
Outside of a chunk of metal or bat hooks (not for belays of course!) the only option I know of is a removable bolt. The 1/4" ones require a very shallow hole that is quick to drill - not that much deeper than a bat hook hole. No worries about degradation over time either. I've only tested the 3/8" (not 1/2") ones and they are quite strong even in straight pullout (~2000 lbs in less than ideal granite). I know that's what I'd use instead of a rivet ladder.
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jbur
climber
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Feb 27, 2003 - 02:39pm PT
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What about stainless vs. grade 5 machine bolts? Anyone done any testing about the strength difference?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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“Ok... I'll define it. Set A (collared) all broke at the junction. Failure rate 100%.
Set B (threaded) I remember universal massive bending before failure, but with enough force, all broke. Failure rate 100%”
So, they all broke. What does that tell us? How did their strengths compare? Was one type stronger than the other? If they are both about the same strength, yet deform and break differently, then what is the difference between the two types, other than possible cable cut-age? (This problem is negated by the use of RP hangers (which are much stronger than cable rivet hangers and won’t pop off the rivet when clipped with a biner)). Hey Russ, how about manufacturing keyhole hangers? The RPs are spendy and the Pika ones suck.
The following info is from testing done by John Middendorf, Jim Bridwell, and others. I’m not sure of the exact year but the copy I have is stapled to a copy of John’s bolting article which appeared in the February 1988 issue of Climbing.
5/16” Machine Bolts, coarse thread,
Shear Tests:
Placed snug to hanger:
Grade 5, 1 ¼”, SMC 3/8” hanger, Rawl # 14 bit – 3781 lbs., pulled out.
Grade 2, 1 ¼”, SMC 3/8” hanger, Rawl # 14 bit – 2754 lbs., sheared.
Grade 5, 3/4”, SMC 3/8” hanger, Rawl # 14 bit – 2729 lbs., pulled out.
Grade 5, 3/4”, RP keyhole hanger, Rawl # 14 bit – 2493 lbs., pulled out, hanger deformed.
Placed ½ way in:
Grade 5, 1 ¼”, SMC 3/8” hanger, ¼” bit – 2617 lbs., pulled out.
Grade 5, 1 ¼”, SMC 3/8” hanger, ¼” bit, threads mashed – 1489 lbs., pulled out.
Comments-
“Unbelievable”
I presume that the bolts tested were the fully threaded type, but I’m not sure; nothing is specified. John later told me that he thought that the collared bolts are a better idea. My partners and I have used this type of rivet extensively, including at belays. Some of my solo belays consist of a 3/8” bolt and a 5/16” machine bolt rivet.
“A spot of theory: I tend to think the damage is done while driving the rivet into the hole. Something happens at the junction to weaken that point. The collar area is more rigid than the threads, and during the pounding there is deformation at the junction that severely weakens the rivet. That junction is subject to a force concentration that it never recovers from.”
Agreed. Metal fatigue. Over-driving a rivet can weaken it. To chop a rivet of this type, I have to wail on the thing and bend it back and forth several times before it snaps. If the placement is less than ideal, the bolts will pull out, rather than snap.
“>>I still think that machine bolt rivets with a smooth collar are better. >>
Hmmmmm...... is this because of the threads "cutting" theory on rivet hangers (still unproven)…”
Yes. I will test this ‘theory’ next time I do some testing. Have you had a chance to test it?
“…or you just like dicey rivets?”
Yes and no. I think Zamac or Zmac (whichever) rivets are garbage but 5/16” machine bolts are bomber for their intended purpose and are much easier and quicker to place than other bolts, while drilling on the lead (aid climbing). I guess it comes down to style – only 5/16” rivets on lead; anything goes at belays (be it good or bad).
“>>But then again, I never give up… >>
Maybe you should..... you said it yourself, "The collared ones broke a the junction".”
Failure mode is irrelevant if the two bolt types are of equal strength (i.e. placement strength).
I’ll try to write up some of my test results.
jbur wrote:
“What about stainless vs. grade 5 machine bolts? Anyone done any testing about the strength difference?”
Stainless rivets were used on the FA of Tribal Rite. While cleaning one of the ladder pitches, Kirk pulled out a rivet with his fingers. Cool. The hole has since been filled with a 3/8” bolt. Either the hole/bit size was incorrect or the metal type didn't work properly.
I’m not sure if stainless alloys have the appropriate strength/deformational characteristics to be used as a hammer-in rivet. Anyone know? The 1/4" buttonhead may be a better idea for long-term use, due to the spring action inherent to their design, but require more effort and time to place - something that a climber may not be willing to expend.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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>Failure mode is irrelevant if the two bolt types are of equal strength. >
Maybe I'm not clear enough....
I say the smooth collared rivets are weaker ie: break easier, than the all thread models.
I do not have a giant sample set analysis, dnyomometer failure testing, or a 900 page thesis on this. This is from personal experience, half ass testing, and hearsay.
At some point I'll set up some test stuff to find out for sure.
Whaddya think about testing these scenarios:
threaded machine bolt, hanger
threaded machine bolt, rivet hanger
threaded machine bolt, tie off
unthreaded machine bolt, hanger
unthreaded machine bolt, rivet hanger
unthreaded machine bolt, tie off
Machine bolt grade 8, same as above
Rawl buttonhead
Only going to test shear. Maybe 3 of each set. Test to failure.
Russ
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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That sounds like a good idea. Maybe throw some Fixe 5/16” buttonheads in for the hell of it.
What type of testing equipment to you have, or will you have? I’d be psyched to help out with the testing if possible.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey Russ
I'll bring the Le Mans over with trunk full beer and we'll yard out bolts all day with a slack rope tied to the bumper like the old days back in C4, eh? WB
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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As you know Werner.... all my test data is based on the LeMans tests. Love that car.....!
Russ
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Yeah, I've heard about these tests in the old days. Wasn't Cosgrove involved? Do you measure the strength of the bolt by how far past the car the bolt flies; i.e. the bolt strength is directly proportional to the distance traveled? Can't believe you never broke a rear windshield...
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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This thread is extremely informative. Thanks for all the good info. Still interested in all the options for hand drilling anchors on alpine rock.
A relatively-local shop sells Hilti 1/4" x 1 3/4" expansion bolts as rock pro. Hilti website how no strength data unfortunately. Anyone have any opinions/experience with Hilti hardwear? How about 1/4" expansion bolts in general? Thanks.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Considering the fact that 1/4" expansion bolts may be threaded, they will be weaker than a solid 1/4" buttonhead.
Like Russ said, 1/4" x 1 1/2" buttonhead. Period.
A 1/4" sleeve expansion bolt will have a bolt with a diameter of something between 1/8" and 3/16" - sounds like Harding's old 3/16" bolts. Yikes!!!
Also, buttonheads can be pulled (i.e. replacement); threaded expansion bolts cannot.
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