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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Between Tuscano and Liguria, Italia
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 4, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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I don't have the pics but saw a climber with a broken cam after just weighting a purple OP link cam on the route in the gulley just left of 'Sexy Grandma' on the Old Woman in Joshua Tree (HVCG).
He was a confessed neophyte at leading on gear but happened to hear me mention that this weekend was an anniversary of when I started a while back. He then asked me "How often the gear breaks like this" - I told him that this was the first time I had seen it in person.
He is not a ST forum member but I asked him several times if he would be willing to sign up to show this info and he agreed.
Both of the out lobes on one side broke as did on of the inner lobers. The piece has no structural integrity left.
Anyone heard of the 'new' link cams breaking like this?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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The rare times I've heard of this sort of thing with Link Cams is rumored to be when someone places them in a horizontal way (rather than in a configuration where a fall or hang would place a downward pull on the piece), where a fall basically torques the piece down out of the horizontal placement and the aluminum cams and the steel cams (the uppers) don't get along while trying very hard to maintain that horizontal placement.
Lesson: rookies need to stop placing cams (any cams) with the stems sticking straight out from the rock. Not saying that was going on here, but have seen lots of newbie style climbers who do just that.
Not much, but what I've gathered from the rare reports on this phenomenon.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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rookies need to stop placing cams (any cams) with the stems sticking straight out from the rock.
I guess I better quit climbing at the gunks then... Isn't that why we came up with flexible stems on cams anyway? A cam should not self destruct from this direction of force.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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I suspect you know that isn't the type I was talking about Kris, but whatever. I was just trying to help with some info. Next time maybe I should have a lawyer look over the post before I submit it.
Talking about placements in vertical or near vertical cracks where the stem is sticking out perpendicular to the rock. Good example is the one the guy placed and blew up on the Left Ski Track in Josh.
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travelin_light
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Well if my memory serves me correct there is about two places to put in gear on that whole route and they are both optional. The first option comes pretty fast in easy terrain in the gully (to the left) and it is wide-ish (#3?). It is pretty easy there and I cannot see anyone weighting gear. The first hard move come after the gully and it is protected by a bolt when you turn on to the face/slab.
The last gear option comes at the top and that is also wide and very optional as well. You would probably not be weighting gear there, it is also easy.
My take is there is not a horizontal cam placement on that whole route.
Most importantly, where there is placements you are not going to be falling - at least I hope not!
Seems weird.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sorry Steel, I took your use of the word "horizontal" the wrong way. Yes you are correct. I almost brought up the right ski track deal in my post but didn't feel like typing that much...
No need to lawyer up just yet... :-)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps there's something on the Omega Pacific website about how to place, and not place, Link Cams. Or maybe I should read the fine print on the tag of one that I bought recently...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Link Cams need to be placed so the stem is in-line with the force vector anticipated during a fall and should not be allowed to move thereafter. The linkages are fragile and will likely not hold up well to the cams being rotated or having leveraging forces exerted on them, which can happen if the stem is laid over an edge, even a rounded one.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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That INMOP puts them in tha catagory of specialized gear only to be used by experts and only then in special circumstances. You really shouldnt have a piece on a standard rack that can self destruct if not placed just exactly right. YMMV
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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+1 what tradmanclimbs said. With the caveat that I don't own one and never placed one I'll offer the following.
I see this piece carried most commonly by relative newbies as the "oh shit" piece that they grab and stuff when they don't want to fiddle with getting the placement right for a cam with a smaller range. Exactly the wrong way to think about these cams if they include the "feature" of being picky about placement.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Link cams shouldn't be used in a vertical crack with their stems sticking out horizontally. Isn't that obvious, looking at the cam or the placement?
They seem to work well in many other situations, however. I've often been glad to have them on the rack.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Most gear if is not placed just right still works reasonably well and none that I know of self destructs. The link cam seems to need to be placed perfectly in verticle cracks to prevent self destruction. That INMOP is a good reason to not have them on a standard rack where a less experienced climber might place it incorectly and die. YMMV I have used them on partners racks and the ease of placement is nice. Hopeing that it weights just right under load so it does not break is not as nice ;)
Scenario. You are climbing a moderate multi pitch climb and you give a lead to your less experiences partner. They place the link cam ok in a verticle crack but forget to add a runner to it. They then snag it with their foot on the way by rotateing the stem out. Now they get pumped and fall, the link cam self destructs and they get hurt. Bad day for everyone.. The same placement rotated out with a Camalot would have most likly have held the fall with no problems.
The link cam may be nice to help lighten up a back country rack but with that convience perhaps comes a significant added risk of gear failure...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Annother way of looking at it is that Chilloe Is a pro who understands the limitations of this gear and is not likly to stress out and ignore the finer points of useing the link cam.
Someone just starting out and putting together their first rack from whatever is on sale at REI is gaurenteed to place the Link cam incorectly. The only thing keeping them off the deck is puer luck at not falling on that piece.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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I'm greatful for the Link Cam. It has saved my life more than once. I use the heck out of them and love them.
I have placed them in places where the infamous BD Cam would not fit and vice versa.
The link Cam LIKE ALL GEAR YOU OWN needs to be placed properly.
I see people place the tiny stoppers with light weight cable to protect lead falls (it is not supposed to).
I have Aliens that failed under the weight rating. I have damaged BD Cams. I have had BD cams come out as I pass them.
Face it people, its rock climbing and the environment changes by the move and it is our job to save our own lives. Fortunaetly some people are making equipment to help, NOT GUARANTEE our safety.
Anyway, I am happy the guy is okay and sorry he is out some dough.
CHeers, Jay Renneberg
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Jim E
climber
away
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Climbing is dangerous. You WILL be injured and or killed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The point that I am trying to make is that the link cam like micro wires is specialized gear that requires expert knowledge to use. Neither piece should bee on a beginners rack INMOP. I have never heard of a failed modern Camalot despite hundreds of thousands more of them in circulation than Link cams. For the relatively small number out there we are seeing some failures. That raises a huge red flag for me. YMMV
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Tradmanclimbs:
re:Beginners should not have them
Oh please, they do not require an engineering degree to place correctly. Some basic instruction from your mentor should do. If your going to lead a rock climb you should have a clear understanding of the direction of force.... DOWN.
NOTE: the snippy tone of this post is meant in a sarcastic joking way.
Cheers
EDIT: oh yeah, and camalots can and do break. All gear can break,
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Well they are breaking for some reason? Either they are not being placed properly or they suck?
BTW. Please post up a broken modern camalot photo? I heard of an old Chiounard blowing apart due to thin lobes and wrong material but that was fixed. never heard of a modern Camalot breaking?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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A. I am on Dial up at home. B. I am not the one claiming that camalots break.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Didn't I read someplace that Kate uses links almost exclusively for pin scars over Aliens?
I have the larger one and like it a lot. The notion that this is an expert only piece of gear is a bit extreme.
Hexes are expert only gear in my book. "OLD" experts that is....
Prod.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Temecula
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I was with Tom and saw the broken cam mentioned in the OP. I did not see how it broke, but I remember a few details from the conversation afterward.
The climbers using the cam were somewhat inexperienced. They said that they started climbing the chimney to the right of Double Cross, could not proceed after about 20 feet, and then decided to move over to the bolted line to the right (don't remember the name, "Granny" something?)
This is just speculation, but I doubt there was much of a fall involved. They were hang-dogging quite a bit. One guy mentioned something about "just testing" the placement when it broke. I'm not sure where he was trying to place it, but it was probably high enough that there a good bit of rope out. From what I know, it's hard to imagine any scenario where there could have been unusually high force on the gear.
Dave
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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I just did the rc.noob link above and the cam looks like it was fixed for over a year and got weathered out of the crack by thermal expansion/contraction. Crushed severely. The thread speculated on all the things that had no evidence to support them from the photo. Chisel, saw etc. All I could see is crushed. I also have not seen or heard of a modern camalot breaking in this manner. Or ever from any torque or similar abuse. Can't find it. Tons of other false claims and drivel though. Lots of haters, camalots this, aliens that,metolious is the shiz because, but no broken camalots from rotational torques. Hmmmmmm.
Bob
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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That #2 Camalot was NOT broken while climbing. It was fixed mank and was hammered to sh#t for a few years before someone brought out the big guns and broke it for real. Never heard of a camalot breaking under climbing use.
Link cams on the other hand despite there being a fraction of the number of units in use appear to blow apart and self destruct ocasionaly. Then it gets blamed on noobs not useing them correctly but Yall don't like my sugestion that noobs shouldn't use them?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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The words "N00b" and "Link Cam" should never be in the same sentence. Thats yer problem right there.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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There's no doubt in my mind the Camalot is a more robust unit.
On the other hand, there are placements where a Link will go securely and a Camalot won't
fit, or would be more likely to get stuck or pull out. We're always making judgments.
I remember getting near the top of a lead once that had turned out to be longer and 3
grades harder than I expected. Above was 20 more feet of irregular, leaning crack with
no rests, and I had only two cams left on my rack -- both Links, and I was really glad that
they were.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I agree that the link cam has a place I just don't think that place is on a standard rack. Again YMMV.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I've made three points throughout the Link Cam discussions on RC:
a) They are the best expression of this particular design construct that today's state-of-the-art in material science can produce.
b) Both the advantages and limitations of the design should be relatively obvious to experienced climbers with one close inspection of the cam lobe linkages.
c) That the harsh, inarguable reality is once you hang a piece of gear on your rack and leave the ground, it is what it is at that point. What the manufacturer, your best friend, or 3941 people on the internet said about it is irrelevant - it's on you and you alone to recognize and exploit its advantages and to work within the constraints of its limitations.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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HealyJ
Those are all excelent points and completly reinforece my opinion that the Link cam should Not be on a beginners rack.
I will add that INMOP Micro wires or any wire smaller than a BD#5 should also not be on a beginners rack.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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I will add that INMOP Micro wires or any wire smaller than a BD#5 should also not be on a beginners rack.
I guess you would need to define beginner. My take is know the limitations of your tools. A beginner should also know this prior to leaving the ground. That being said, I disagree with your point, but understand where you are coming from.
Prod.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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tradmanclimbs
Do you use Aliens?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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So a fixed Camalot that someone destroyed to remove is a failed piece of gear? Pretty bomber placement, albeit somewhat hard to clean, if you ask me...
I've seen several pics of failed link cams floating around on the net for a while. In THIS ONE the climber states that the stem was angled downward at 45 to 50 degrees.
In all of the pics I've seen it was the metal cams which broke, not some little wire piece.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Beginners need to learn the basics of gear placement. Micro wires are advanced, Not Basics. Micro wires don't hold unless perfectly placed. I have seem beginners place a crap micro wire right next to a perfect larger nut placement and climb over it like it was a bolt. Shakeing like a dogg shitting razorblades ready to peel at any moment.
INMOP The margin for error with all micro gear as in micro cams and nuts is too slim for a beginner. I like to teach place the largest piece of gear that will properly fit the placement unless you obviously need to save that piece for higher on the pitch. later in the process you learn the value of micro gear but you do not need to know these things untill you get some miles under your belt.
I have 2 old aliens that I still use. I will not buy new Aliens. And I will not buy any Link cams. No point is spending hard earned dough on stuff that breaks too easy. Again YMMV
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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I own 8 Linkcams, tens of thousands of feet with them, no brakes and no trouble but I sure move faster... Which can make you safer
Anyway, I like the LinkCam and will continue to use them.
Nothing else to add.
Thanks for playing.
Jay
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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I bootied a yellow one last summer, and then picked up a green when they went on sale. I've seen several reports of the lobes breaking. I'm a bit confused as to the 'proper' use of these guys.
At the moment I'm just using them as anchor pieces, and for easier alpine stuff where I want to save weight, ie. bringing the green and yellow (2 cams) instead of the 0.5 - 2 C4 (4 cams).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And I will not buy any Link cams. No point is spending hard earned dough on stuff that breaks too easy.
We part company a bit here. "...breaks too easy" isn't how I would describe them given they are as strong as any such design can be using today's technology. I would, however, say they are less forgiving to inappropriate placements, but then it's back on the user not to make such placements. Again, it's a matter of being prepared to work with the realities a piece presents you when staring at it in your hand.
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Phil_B
Social climber
Hercules, CA
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I broke a LinkCam once. It was one of the first models out there and I pulled the trigger wire off. Omega Pacific fixed it for me for free and it remains one of my favorite pieces.
Maybe I'll use my REI dividend to get some more. . .
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Good thread; thanks.
(TMC, Is INMOP "IN My O Pinion"?)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I have seem beginners place a crap micro wire right next to a perfect larger nut placement and climb over it like it was a bolt. Shaking like a dogg shitting razorblades ready to peel at any moment.
LOL!!! John Long rides again!
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Shane Murphy
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Hey just figured I would check this out and give you guys a few facts. I am the guy who placed that cam and I found out about this discussion from Omega Pacific when I was speaking with them on the phone today.
In response to the original poster of this thread "Thomas Keefer"
The guy you spoke with on the ground was NOT the guy who placed the cam. The guy on the ground definitely is new at placing gear I was there aiding him in learning the ropes (no pun intended) and to his defense he made two of the best nut placements I have ever seen with laterally opposing placement in a tricky place to put some gear, I would surely have trusted my life on them.
So here is how it goes, my buddy tried to lead the route got part of the way up and got spooked at the crux doubting his protection so he left all the gear in and came down and I went up to clean all his gear. I did not know how his placements were above me so I placed a .5 link cam in a vertical crack with pretty standard placement nothing strange about it gave it a quick pull check clipped it and moved on. I removed the rest of his gear above that link cam and down climbed back to that link cam. (it was a safe place to down climb without gear above my head) Once I got to the link cam I traversed up and to the right about 5 feet to a sport route and clipped a hangar then headed back to get my cam that is when I noticed something looked weird.
I noticed 2 of the lobes dangling from their wire inside of the crack I took a good look at it to see if I could figure out what happened but everything looked normal in terms of placement so I took it out and sent it down to my belay to take a look at it.
That is pretty much all of the information I have at this point. I spoke with Omega Pacific this morning and they were very helpful, and expressed their willingness to work with me on this issue.
I will gladly keep this forum up to date with any additional information I come by. If you have any questions please let me know.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nightmare.
Now you don't even need to fall on a piece to break it.
I guess that's the trade off for "Greater Range"
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Healy, Climbing is 90% mental for me especialy since my body is so feffin weak these days. I see a shot of a #2 camalot that was crushed by a massive block and though mangled did not break and looks like you could still use it as a passive chock and hang a keg of beer from it no problem and that gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside. I will now climb better every time I place a #2 camalot. I see shots and hear about a link cam that self destructed in low impact fall and I read story about one just falling apart for no aparent reason and now when I climb over a link cam I feel like I am soloing but with the added weight and hassel of a rope and rack.
That is not IN My OPinion a good investment in money or time. Your Mileage May Varry.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Link cams just need to be placed correctly. At the bottom of the trash can.
Just kidding. I guess some people like them. I just don't like the feel of them. You can't retract the lobes on either side independently, like a C4, for flaring cracks. For indian creek with lots of parrellel cracks where you need a lot of pieces that will fit the same size they'd be nice. With possible quality control issues I won't buy any.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Now you don't even need to fall on a piece to break it.
This never seemed to bug the crowd yelling that Aliens are/were perfectly safe.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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No alien has ever failed by placement alone.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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You had to actually weight the failian to get it to fail.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Hey Shane Murphy
You wrote...
"I noticed 2 of the lobes dangling from their wire inside of the crack I took a good look at it to see if I could figure out what happened but everything looked normal in terms of placement so I took it out and sent it down to my belay to take a look at it."
1) Had the lobes fallen off the axle?
Or
2) Had the lobes broken off at one of the pivot points? i.e. actual broken bits of metal.
If (1) it sounds like the defect mentioned in the recall which can be easily spotted (if you know to look)
If (2)....that sucks.....
Thanks for any clarification.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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HMM..
How many thousands of alien placements occur every year?
Just think of a El cap season, where MOST placements are for progression.
How many failures?
The two cams are not even in the same category.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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No alien has ever failed by placement alone.
No? but didn't a guy tie his Schnauzer up with one and it fell apart when the dog pulled on it to chase a squirrel? BTW, I'm still using my aliens, but certainly not tieing up my Jack Russell's with them any more.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I would suggest there needs to be a distinction made between a couple of startup manufacturing snafus, such as the improper riveting and peening associated with recalls, and failures of otherwise 'good' Link Cams. You shouldn't for a moment just assume the broken cams were recalled cams; the design carries inherent [materials] limitations unrelated to any recall.
That isn't saying people shouldn't buy or use Link Cams, but rather you need to understand this is a unique and novel solution to the range problem that comes both advantages and limitations. Utilize the former within the constraints of the latter and you may find Link Cams are the cat's meow; use them badly and you may decide they aren't for you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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... But to this day OP has not addressed the underlying concern healyje voices. Not once.
Hmmm. I believe OP has addressed the recall issues, but without going to a shop and perusing a hangtag on one of them, I can't ascertain whether or not they are providing more / better recommendations for use. As Dingus notes there is nothing I can find in that regard on their website which I find a bit surprising at this point. I should think that whatever information is on the hangtags shipped with all their products should be published and available on their website as pdf's. In lieu of that I should think a web page on recommended applications of the Link Cams would be in order.
Again, I don't have 'concerns' with built-to-spec Link Cams per se - or with the inherent [materials science] limitations of their novel design - I think OP has produced the best possible implementation of that design. Instead I have concerns about any climbers who think they can treat Link Cams like a Camalot or Power Cam just because they have cams, springs, and a trigger. It just isn't the case and, as with any piece of gear, (and to butcher a Harry Callahan quote) - "A man's got to know its limitations."
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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I've seen 3 link-cams crap out to a non-useable state. The red and yellow cams were returned to OP and replaced, then the replaced yellow cam crapped out as well. The first and second cam issues were related to cables, and the third was a lobe connector. It was likely returned and replaced as well.
As far as I know buddy is still climbing with them. The range does make for a versatile piece but they don't last.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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I agree that the link cam has a place I just don't think that place is on a standard rack.
Seems to pretty much sum it up.
IMO, a specialized, and apparently temperamental, widget.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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The reason the lobe was dangling was possible because you had an old model with the simple pins in the trigger. Then, when your buddy lowered, the rope probably ground against the trigger/wires mechanism of the cam. That can be some weird force,...rope gets raked across the trigger wires and they come out. This results in dangling lobes, because the original pins holding the wires into the trigger were junk.
Lowering a climber off of a route with the rope running up the crack and thru the pro can make some weird forces on the trigger/stem of the cam. If I had to bet, that's where I'd put my money.
Were the lobes broken? Doesn't sound like it from the posts, unless I missed something.
-Kate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Were the lobes broken? Doesn't sound like it from the posts, unless I missed something.
What she said. Pics would be nice as well...
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Some supertopo semi-regulars had a link cam fail recently as well....they are very experiencec and on a famed tahoe route with obvious and good placements. I don't know if they want to go public. Perhaps they are waiting for feedback from OP before they decide if they even want to, but suffice it to say it (and other examples such the original post here) seriously impact my confidence in the link cam. From what I understand the break was very similar to the photo shown upthread.
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Shane Murphy
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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There could not have been any strange forces due to lowering on the cam as it was never weighted by me as I down climbed to remove it, plus I had a shoulder length sling attached to the cam. I have some pictures that I will post up after hearing back from Omega.
I want to just lay it down for the record that I do like and use Omega products and to date everything has been great, I look forward to their response in this matter, and so far their customer service and attention to this issue have been excellent I am thoroughly impressed. My initial plan of action was to discuss this with Omega, gather some facts then post actual information online not just speculation, but since the discussion has already been started I figured I would update everyone on the status of everything.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Shane, it's you call on how you go about all this, but I shouldn't think posting pics of the affected cam would be any kind of issue with OP. Better to have that out in the open than just speculation.
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