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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 3, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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In recent years I have noticed that climbers breaking in to multi-pitch climbing seem to take FOREVER to set up belay stations. In questioning them, I am told that they either read or were told to ALWAYS put in THREE EQUALIZED anchors. I have set up many thousands of belay and rap anchors and I am still here to tell the tale. If on a climb I put in a bomber blue camalot for a belay- done, over, on belay, climbing, climb.
I know that you should error on the side of caution, but, as an alpinist, I also know that there is safety in speed. Do you think that "how to" books and climbing schools could do a better job getting people to use judgement when setting up belays?
Your thoughts please.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Methinks that "how to" books and climbing schools are always going to take the overkill route. Good or bad? I dunno.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Well, ultimately Mr. D, they might mention the usefulness of not dallying around. I don't recall seeing speed mentioned much, except for high alpine situations.
And folks can be relied on to lag.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Yeah, Jim, I always figgered that two pieces were bomber. Three was for hauling the litter. My guiding principle in the mountains was "Just don't fall baby!" Of course these days it seems people spend more time fiddling with the gear than learning how to actually climb.
AGOG - Another Grumpy Olde Guye
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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As a guide I'm always striving for 3 pieces, equalized. Two minimum. A lot of it is being a good example to clients. Hard to 'splain all the judgment calls...
But then in alpine situations, even with clients I often throw a sitting hip belay with no anchor beyond my bomber stance, which is faster than even a single cam. Reeling in the rope around my hips is way faster than thru an ATC.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the redundancy is probably not a bad thing for beginners who are not likely to be cranking on long alpine routes where speed is a safety factor. Better to learn to bail if it's getting late, at least when you first start out.
When I learned to belay it was all about "the stance." You'd pound a single pin in, usually, then assume a secure stance, tied off to the piton, then belay away. I still use the stance as a major part of any belay system... when it's possible.
Sometimes you only get the stance, sometimes the stance and a piece... getting two pieces in is a good thing and even if the stance is poor is often a bomber anchor. I'd rarely use a single piece, however bomber, unless the stance was also bomber and I was confident that I could hold a fall without the piece...
But this all comes with experience. We got away with some sketchy belay anchors... not bad to have three pieces in, and if you're experienced, it doesn't take too much longer...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Been a while since hip belay, pre-cam days when you might end up having to make do with a nut or two because that's what you ended up with at a belay on some pitch or another. True, happened on FA's more than established lines, but I recall it ending up that way more than a couple of times. In general, unless a belay were either somewhat or fully hanging, we pretty much were into creative stancing and always treated the anchor as a backup to our belay and stance. I don't think kids think much about stancing either these days.
Edit: Ha, a minute apart...
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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I don't know what to tell you Jim, it's really tough out there these days!
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perswig
climber
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I first read this as an anti-BOLT, belay station question.
You're talking number of pieces making up each belay?
It seems somewhat generational, and yes, I'd say organized instruction and climbing books encourage redundant and 'worst-case' situation thinking when demonstrating building anchors.
Nobody teaches you to place a single bomber nut or tricam, assume a good belay stance, and yell 'on belay' unless you're mentored by a wise older climber, you're into alpinism, or you figure it out on your own and your partner doesn't freak when she gets to the belay.
Edit: ignore me repeating what the old guys above said.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Agree with you all the way, Jim. I've climbed lately with a few people 40+ years younger than me, fresh out of the schools. The amount of time to set up the perfect belay -- and the disbelief when they see the simplicity but security of mine, is always fun to watch. I try not to let them see me slip into a hip belay when bringing them up, though!
John
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hooblie
climber
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short answer, you're right and you didn't have to ask.
shaving to the minimum is a master's game. you've run all the scenario's of what could go wrong and it's pretty good odds that what you didn't manage to contemplate probably won't happen.
don't assume so much from the guy that just read the book. there's many a mile to be tread till that guy's thought processes are a decent replacement for the extra piece(s). what's to be gained by rushing him along the learning curve if you aren't chomping at the bit right below him? judgement comes from experience and experience comes with lumps.
the schools are thinking from the bottom up and your thinking from the top of the sport down. if you're not beefing up the anchor it's because your in your comfort zone and speed and efficiency is what's making it delightful. on a casual outing i enjoy the engineering and putzing with the gizmos.
i wouldn't flinch if you brought me up on your anchor. when i left the station it would be on one that met consensus. personally, i think the leader's first piece of pro is the underheralded element of the anchor. then what i do after that may be the real issue. arrgghh
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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I have set up many thousands of belay and rap anchors and I am still here to tell the tale.
The fact that you are still here is NOT evidence that your technique was safe or sound. You might just be the odd survivor.
Beginners take longer because they have not yet accumulated the practice and eye for setting up pieces quickly and rigging an anchor. Maybe rather criticize you could show them a quicker way.
What is your hurry? Anxious to return to something that is not as fun?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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If i got to the belay and Jim Donini had one piece in, it wouldn't bother me a bit.
If i got to the belay and my beginner partner had one piece in....!!!111
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Good point, Wade. I look back to my first year in the Valley -- and the five hours it took us to do the Right Side of Monday Morning Slab the first time, and I need to remember that good judgment comes from experience, and experience from poor judgment. Thanks for the correction.
John
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Tradisgood,
Gotta reply to your post. The fact that I'm still here can't all be attributed to good luck, especially where rap anchors are concerned. Speed can be important even in pure rock climbing. How many stories have you heard about people getting benighted on Royal Arches or Epinephrine- that shouldn't happen. I'm not being critical, I'm trying to be helpful. I'm questioning the way they are trained.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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what wade icy and hooblie and doug robinson said. knowing in your gut what you can pare the anchor down to is the product of many thousands of belays in "trad" situations. i've hip belayed off one piece a thousand times, and have caught pretty big falls under those circumstances dozens of times. but i would probably not trust someone who didn't do a LOT of climbing, say, during the 70's to do the same...if you are a gym-bred beginner, prolly best to err on the side of caution.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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personally I'd try not to belay on just one piece- just like I never trust one biner- I could see if you are on some alpine route and speed meant life or death- me, I back up my harness with a 2" swami on wall routes- :) Edit: thats probably why I'm a average recreational climber and donini is the world class climber.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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donini, you don't get it. You could put in zero pieces and belay around your neck. If your follower never fell, you would "still be here."
I will repeat "the fact that you are here is not evidence that you were doing it right."
I am not saying that one piece might not be sufficient. Nor am I arguing that speed might not be important.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Thanks for all the info to weigh and think about. lynne
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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Tradisgood- perhaps you don't get it. I'm still here because over 45+ years my anchors for rap and belay have been good but rarely have they been three in number. I have had seconds and leaders fall- one for 200ft. I suppose you are aware that every rap anchor I've used had to hold at least body weight.
I see you're from the Gunks. When I was guiding in the Tetons we had a ledge we referred to as the "gunks bivvy." So many climbers came to the Tetons with good climbing ability but were not versed in how to move quickly, efficiently and SAFTLY.
Spending a night in an open bivvy on the Grand is no fun.
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