Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 62 of total 62 in this topic |
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 11:46am PT
|
"Doesn't always panout as planned as history has shown. "
Well, comparing him/her to a Nazi war criminal is not exactly the best way to start a relationship.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 11:53am PT
|
I think it's a nice thing to do, especially since he could be saving yer ass off a route someday.
Welcome!
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
|
in yer dreams, fatty.
Disclaimer: This is not an opinion of the McBush campaign
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
|
Is that Goebel Gerbil you are talking about?
Anyway, what's with the animosity to NP rangers (especially the non-LEO ones)? I have had a couple of run-ins with them in the past (many moons ago) but I don't hold it against all of them.
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 12:12pm PT
|
I'm not getting invovled with this one!
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
|
Oy...
I met the new head law enforcement ranger here in the park. I went to some community meetings where he spoke and I worked with him when he came to help install the new playground equipment for our elementary school here in Wawona.
He seems like a nice guy with a genuine love for places like Yosemite. He also seems like a level headed person, somewhat gungho but with an understanding that we don't need to live in a police state. He doesn't appear to be a petty tyrant.
He has toned down the rangers attitudes towards being more helping instead of the overbearing militaristic, my way or jail, type attitude that seemed to reign here in the park in the past.
Who knows how long he will last. I don't. Who knows who will take his place when he leaves. I don't.
For some reason it seems like the park has had a course change. There seems to be more willingness to accept that the people are the whole reason for having the park, so helping them enjoy the park while protecting it appears to the new motto of the day.
Does this mean that all rangers are now happy go lucky guys who will let you slide when you break some innocuous law such as having your ropes up too long ? NOPE
There are still rangers with hardcore attitudes, but the head guy has less of an attitude and that is making it easier for the rangers who always had what I would call a more easy attitude to just be themselves. They aren't getting as much pressure from the top.
Law enforcement is still a big government entity that can seem intractable and heartless at times, but I have noticed a change in how things work in the park.
Rangers are human too. So I have made an effort to reach out to the rangers here in the park and work with them instead of always demonizing them.
I hope others will also embrace this attitude.
John
And folks, I have been tooled while living in the park for close to 20 years, so I know what it is like. It is no fun.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
|
How do you go about improving the type of relationships that might have been difficult in the past.
Communication and understanding are good places to start.
Not acting even worse than the perceived enemy is wise too. Even the nicest guy becomes a jerk if everyone starts off treating him like one.
Get over the past prejudice, or, if you must, apply them to the individuals who you feel wronged you.
Turning authority into demons only turns them into demons.
peace
Karl
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:29pm PT
|
Someone told me that THEY are DEMONS!!!!!!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:29pm PT
|
Yeah, Karl pretty much nailed it.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
|
Only for those who THINK.....
Use your crampons for climbing.
Use your brain for thinking. Actually use it.
A Park ranger politely cites a climber for not having a Park required permit, a piece of paper, (no damage to persons or property), threatening him with a year in jail, and costing him a $400 fine.
The crowd remains silent.
A climber calls Park rangers, Stinking Pigs.
The crowd tells the climber to tone it down and be nice.
THINK.
Now, why do you think humans still lucratively prey on other humans who damage no people or property?
Welcome Ranger Goebel, and let me apologize for equating Park Rangers to Pigs. I should not have so rudely slighted the good character of farmyard swine.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
|
"Now, why do you think humans still lucratively prey on other humans who damage no people or property?"
Doug, he didn't follow clear rules of the park.
If I sneak into a country illegally, it's a crime with no damage to persons or property. Same thing with paying fees to get into a park. If you don't like it don't go to the park, or suffer the consequences of your clearly illegal actions.
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
|
Who CARES!!!!
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
|
So what do you want Doug, no laws anywhere? I don't like having to deal with permits, but without them some places get run over. Then it can take lifetimes for an area to recover.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
|
More classic Buchanababble.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
|
BTW, those who compare park rangers to Nazis are ignorant of history about the Nazis and do a disservice to the victims of Nazis by trivializing their suffering.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 03:09pm PT
|
Damn Doug, and I thought I had some issues with authorities:-)
However, teaching these kids to reclaim their lives so they can freak freely may be more difficult than we both can imagine, although I'm happy to see someone taking some baby steps: thank you. Up above, where the fella alludes that the new ranger(s) are more about helping people who need help than in running around and controlling our lives (which do not need their assistance):
I encourage that! Hope that the ranger reading this understands the issues we are projecting is vis a vis our anger of gun totin', pushy, angry, power controlling authorities like SOME rangers are. Met Link the ranger once rapping down off an area he was heading up to physically post off limits due to Peregrines, which he had posted weeks earlier on the camp 4 board and we had no idea (staying in Pines). Had a great interchange, helped him with the signage. However, he's no longer working as a Ranger.
Dirtbag has a good point about comparing the 2 (ie, not doing so as it is a bad thing to compare all the way around, leave the Nazi out of it).
*My main short point is:*
We don't need them getting in our business, we'll ask if we do, and I don't recall anyone asking. I feel that way all the time, as a citizen of our country, not just as a climber.
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 03:14pm PT
|
Nicely said, Couchmaster!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
|
More pics Blitzo! Those were awe inspiring on the other thread.
More pics:-) !
__
One more point: NPS has no business getting into the rescue business. That should stay private or volunteers. If they HAVE to rescue folks asses when they F* up, then they GET to control how, when and where you climb.
It's that simple. If you want mommy, daddy and big brother in your life, then thats one more way of getting them in there. I do not. Rescue should stay private or strictly utilize volunteers.
Live free or die my brothers.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
|
It is offensive and inappropriate to compare a new ranger, or the NPS ranger system, with the unlamented Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany. Goebbels was a war criminal, and guilty of crimes against humanity, including the Holocaust (Shoah). He was the murderer, or accomplice to the murder of, millions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels
It is offensive both to the individual in question (Eric B), and to the NPS. Even if a few rangers are prejudiced against climbers, or some individual climbers, that's no reason to be generally prejudiced against rangers and the NPS, let alone to suggest that individuals or the NPS generally are comparable to Goebbels. Rangers generally do useful and often thankless jobs. Eric B seems a community minded individual, who contributes to the welfare of climbing in the Valley even on his days off.
The police, and those NPS rangers who have law enforcement responsibilities, may sometimes act in an arbitrary and unreasonable manner. They may even sometimes act in an extra-legal manner. At the same time, those in Yosemite have a challenging job, and may at times be provoked by adolescent male behaviour. That's a very long way indeed from what happened in Nazi Germany. The original poster should apologize for making the comparison - it was in no way fair comment.
These "I hate ranger X" or "I hate the NPS" or "I hate any authority" threads are juvenile.
|
|
Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
|
Oy Vey! Where's the rugula?
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
|
I suppose that if your panties are all bunched up about NPS rangers you are least getting to spend a lot of time in the park.
I bet most people don't have any problem with them after they are about 25 years old (maybe a little older for me) and are not doing stupid shite all the time.
I bet some rangers get tired of climbers' sense of entitlement.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
|
BlueRing and John Moosie my friends.....
Your concerns are met....
A primary contradiction of attempting to convey knowledge with sound bytes on website forums is the disjointing of otherwise readily available information.
As I have elsewhere extensively stated, the logical rules, regulations, laws, statutes, codes or such demands of public, which you, I, every SuperTopo reader and all others agree upon and endorse, are already written in the jurisdiction referred to as the common law, or the prevailing laws not contradicted by any superior laws.
They are precise, written laws covering specific human actions.
The common law is the most brilliant human social invention.
You cannot find a person who disagrees with any of them, upon the asking and answering of a certain series of questions, by design.
The common law is reasoning based. Each law for each human action is written as sentences of REASONING for its conclusion. The writing of the common law required several hundred years, effected primarily through the British empire. How and why it happened are fascinating. I and many others have explained that elsewhere.
Cops, lawyers, court judges, bureaucrats and other such malicious thugs HATE the common law, because it eliminates all power, discretion and interpretation of the personalities holding government titled jobs. It destroys power.
That is why accessing the protection of the jurisdiction of the common law requires learning rarely discussed knowledge. All the power based government institutions HATE it, deny it exists, and intensely lie about it upon inquiry or mention of it. But the insiders in the institutions use it to protect themselves and their families.
WISELY LEARN IT.
BlueRing illuminated the contradiction of valid laws which control actions that damage no person or property. That small part of the common law is described as "damage to public policy", but public policy is not government thugs claim.
Public policy IN COMMON LAW, is identified as "public policy" in each case IN THE WRITTEN COMMON LAW, NOT IN THE ROUTINE VERBAL LIES OF GOVERNMENT THUGS.
Each such action in question must identify (1) a significant real threat of identifiable damage, separated by chance alone, with a high chance of the damage occurring, or (2) a significant threat of identifiable damage, separated by chance alone, with a low chance of the damage occurring but with the possible damage so great that any chance is not acceptable.
Examples: Case (1) Speeding through red lights without hitting anyone. Case (2) Storing large quantities of explosives in a residential area.
The common law identifies the unlawful nature of unlawful immigration, for obvious reasoning, or there would be no national border.
The common law prohibits the charging of a fee or tax to exercise a RIGHT, by definition of a RIGHT.
The US Supreme Court has logically ruled that the government holds no authority to charge a fee or tax to exercise a RIGHT, and has logically ruled that Americans hold the RIGHT to walk on public property not chain-link fenced for material security, and the RIGHT to travel by common means on the public rights of way (drive cars on the roads).
All National Park Service entrance fees and permit fees are criminally fraudulent. And George Bush's ego gratification wars are unlawful under the common law, Law of Nations recognized in the US Constitution, and the US Constitution. The aforementioned prevail above all the inferior law excuses pandered by mental midget government dolts.
The Supreme Court has logically ruled that an inferior law contradicted by a superior law holds no weight, effect or enforceability as law.
The US is a common law nation. The US Constitution is a common law document carefully written to be in harmony with common law, by writers who understood the common law.
The countless ongoing criminal violations of the prevailing laws by mental midget government thugs merely define the dumbed-down Americans as yet another of countless dumb societies still mired deep in the intellectual dark ages. Their actions contradict the words they wrote on paper describing what they do not allow themselves to do. Idiots.
Either erase the words, or do as they say, a simple concept vastly beyond the comprehension of unquestioning and therefore self-dumbed-down idiots with government jobs.
The public lands are PUBLIC. Their management is paid for by general taxation, since it is not lawful to tax the poor out of their right to walk on their public lands.
Their repugnantly excessive over-management has even reached the abject corruption of hiring useless mountaineering rangers serving elitist, frivolous recreationalists, and having fun, while poor people in the same society cannot afford basic medical services. Is that society not repugnant to human decency and compassion?
No problem.
LEARN THE ABOVE KNOWLEDGE BY ASKING REAL QUESTIONS OF EVERY CONTRADICTION YOUR MIND PERCEIVES, ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS.
And therefore laugh yourself to tears at the idiot Park Pigs who cannot possibly learn it because they fear questions more than personal death because the knowledge created by questions is the death the power of their entire institution (Park Service).
Carry on...
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
|
Doug, I understand your frustration, but;
1) Common Law originated (I think) in the 17th or 18th century when things were very different in society in general i.e. not as many people, no roads, no cars. It was, in fact, one of the tools used to form our Constitution.
2) National Parks are not public property. They are federally regulated lands that have been deemed 'national treasures' that require servicing and regulation to preserve them. That's fine if you disagree with the gov't intrusion of it, but it's meant to keep idiots from ruining it. BLM land is open to use freely without having to pay fees.
3) If you want to start to get rid of gov't beaurocracy, start with the IRS, Dept of Education, and the like.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
|
"The public lands are PUBLIC. Their management is paid for by general taxation, since it is not lawful to tax the poor out of their right to walk on their public lands. "
Okay Doug, I see where you are coming from and I agree with you about entrance fees. They are a form of unfair taxation. Public means public, they belong to everyone so everyone should pay instead of only those who use it.
On that point I agree, but what about the common law that law enforcement rangers do enforce? Are you saying we should have no rangers?
Property destruction does occur in the park, so I am glad we have rules that limit use and we have rangers that enforce those limitations.
Are you saying we should also get rid of these rangers and these rules?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
|
"common law" has been in existence for centuries, pretty much as long as their have been courts writing opinions. Think Middle Ages. It is a body of law consisting of judicial interpretations that was created and morphed over the centuries, and takes different forms in different jurisdictions.. Laws can also come from statutes, regulations, or local codes and ordinances.
Once again, I have no idea what Buchanan is talking about. I doubt he knows either.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
|
Common law originates from the BC days.
Fed lands are indeed public lands. There is no Fed. Govt. distinct from the public. We have a guv by and for the peeps.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:30pm PT
|
" BLM land is open to use freely without having to pay fees. "
For camping, usually.
For grazing, mining, logging, ect.. there are fees. We sell our property rights.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:33pm PT
|
If somebody had conveyed sufficient knowledge to me before I ran off to help slaughter a bunch of poor Vietnamese because they refused to kowtow to the obviously malicious, wealthy Washington DC DemocanRepublicrat War Regime, I would have not made a fool of myself doing so, and would have learned the same knowledge a lot sooner at a lot less cost to people.
While some climbers grovel to Park Service maliciousness and waste of tax money, in self-induced ignorance, other climbers will forever refuse to kowtow to the mental midget Park Service thugs, and will attempt to convey knowledge to young fellow climbers before they run off to make fools of themselves with Park Service jobs trammeling the rights of climbers, and wasting tax money.
Those who refuse to kowtow to the inherent illogicality of government power will ultimately prevail, by design of humans.
So bunch your panties however you wish, but it is impossible to jail and fine enough climbers to cause them to kowtow to Park Pigs, and impossible to seize enough tax money to make Park Pigs liked by the people from whom you seized their money.
Eric... quit your job or you will end up so dumb that you will believe you can seize enough money to make you liked by the people from whom you seized the money.
And laugh at those war veterans who were fooled into believing they could kill enough people to make presidents respected by anyone but murdering thugs.
Doug
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
|
To hear someone who perceives he is being done wrong by the Man equate a seasonal ranger with Herr Dr. Goebbels, who has the blood of millions on his hands and who also arranged the murder of his six children, speaks more about the poster than the new ranger.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
|
I am sorry you had to serve in Vietnam Doug. That must have sucked big time. I have many friends who served and one who was a POW. He was brutalized. Sometimes there doesn't seem to be enough love to overcome the horrors that we put people through. I wish you had never had to go.
It does seem to me though that you have let your anger and hurt poison you to acceptance of any government.
Sure big government creates the possibility of petty tyrants. Believe me, I have had to deal with plenty of those as I live in a national park. Yet I see the need for many of the things government provides.
For example. Limitations on how many can go into the wilderness at any one time and what they can do in that wilderness. Certainly over time if we had no limitations things would balance out. How?
Enough destruction by ignorant people would occur and those who love wilderness would have to look elsewhere.
I don't want that to happen so I am grateful for the protections that government provides.
Are you saying we should have no government?
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
|
BlueRing my good friend....
Shake your head. National Parks are public property. If they were not, they would be private property. Most people know the National Park ranger motto: "The parks are the private playgrounds of park rangers." You repeated it too many times. You believe it.
This is a climbers forum. The IRS and Department of Education do not have any malicious, tax wasting climbing regulations. The Park Service does. That is why climbers will always rag the Park Service dolts until those illogical regulations are erased from the books. Figure it out.
There are many descriptions of the common law. Mine and others are correct. More detail would convey more knowledge. But under the common law, each PREVAILING law for each human action in the US can be identified in writing. You will agree with each one. So do I and everyone else, even criminals will when asked certain questions. That is how brilliant it is as a human designed device.
Learn and use the common law. Intelligent people use it. It is the jurisdiction that protects YOUR rights, because it protects the rights of the daughters of the high court judges and other insiders who protect the common law for themselves, but try to hide it from you so they can hold power over you because of your ignorance.
There is no need for Park Rangers. There is utility for Police. If we need Park Rangers, rather than common jurisdiction Police in each State, then might we not need a few dozen more separate law enforcement agencies to bicker among themselves over jurisdiction, run up the administration costs and run down efficiency to run up taxes?
Logic works. Attempt to defy it and pay more money until your attempt inherently fails.
From 80 to 95 percent of the laws enforced by cops in this nation are fraudulently applied inferior laws contradicted by superior laws. They were written as excuses for myriads of different taxes to pay the cops to cite or arrest the people who do not pay them. They were made possible by the government's schools dumbing down gullible Americans, especially the cops.
If you live under the rule of law, and the common law is the prevailing law, would not the first thing a rational society teach in grade schools be the common law, and how it functions?
Well?
Well?
Power can only exist in an ignorant society. That is why government goes to great effort to keep people ignorant, especially its cops.
It may be convenient to stay in the society, but you can easily get out of the ignorance.
And have fun doing that while ignorant chaps rail against the knowledge you therefore offer, much to your amusement.
John... I have no anger or hurt. I laugh robustly at the humans and the anger and hurt they needlessly convince themselves to perceive. Knowledge eliminates illogical perceptions of the mind. Wars are high quality amusement identifying the intellectual dark ages of humans, and the unmitigated stupidity of their participants.
If you are not physically laughing at the humans, you are missing their show.
The logical laws against destruction of any public property, be it in cities or so called wilderness, do not need more costly laws and more costly police just because people are ignorant of the logical laws against destruction of public property. If you think they do, keep writing more laws, hiring more police and paying more taxes until you figure it out.
Wilderness is a state of mind. To a kid in NYC, wilderness is a vacant lot with weeds, where vast knowledge can be learned. The Park Service does not protect wilderness. The Park Service is a lucrative tourism business, attracting people to its fiefdoms and fooling fools with wilderness rhetoric.
Or some sort of whatever the humans are doing today.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
|
Anyone that thinks Sadam Hussein, a Park ranger, Pol Pot, is the same, as the perpetuators of what happened during World War II doesn’t know enough about history to offend. Anyone that thinks someone would really think that also doesn’t know enough about history to offend.
Well that sure explains the title of this thread that you started.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
|
John and colleagues....
In regard to your question.....
Upon the asking and answering of questions far beyond your current patience, there is no identifiable reasoning for the existence of government.
The human mind is predicated on reasoning. It holds no mechanism for one mind to force another mind. Reasoning alone prevails.
Government or any group of two or more people creating an institution name, create only power, not more reasoning, intelligence or knowledge, as Bush and Park Service rangers have made so obvious.
Reasoning and knowledge need no government or power.
Power cannot exist in the face of reasoning.
The perception of power in human minds creates 100 percent of all human-caused problems. Reasoning solves them.
The society functioning on written reasoning (an enhanced form of the common law), without government, has already been created on paper. YOU and every SuperTopo reader would immediately choose to live under that form of social governance. Even Bush would.
It is not "who" will rule in regard to this or that threat or damage you perceive. It is "what" will rule. It will rule very effectively because school kids will be taught how to use words that hold their meanings. Certain expressed concepts control all human minds, including those you currently perceive to be criminals.
But it is predicated on reasoning, and while it can be effected against any opposition, because the human mind is predicated on reasoning, not power, the current show, wherein humans still think they need Park Service mountaineering rangers, and militaries, is too entertaining to interrupt with what is going to happen in the future anyway when the humans exhaust themselves attacking each other with idiot climbing regulations and that concept.
Enjoy the show.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:46pm PT
|
I reckon that I disagree with you Doug. I like having some areas protected from over use, simply because humans with egos don't know how to regulate themselves.
I do agree with you that we need to keep a tight rein on government or they too will go hog wild, but until we overcome the ego, we will need law enforcement, including rangers who do nothing but patrol the back country and enforce permits. Permits that restrict the number of folks in any area at any given time.
Does this offer a chance of abuse of power? Certainly. But not having them also offers a chance of abuse of power to the average citizen and I have seen plenty of both types of abuse.
I trust people with egos to do egocentric things.
Sheriffs have a much different training then do park rangers. I see the need for both.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
|
What happens when two reasoning and knowledgeable people come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:48pm PT
|
You were posting as I posted Doug.
Reasoning only works if a person does not have an ego. Egos will corrupt all reasoning.
Edit:
"What happens when two reasoning and knowledgeable people come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?"
This is a result of the dualistic consciousness which is created by the ego/carnal mind. The duality consciousness is the consciousness that creates all opposite type problems. Only the Christ mind/ single mind can overcome this.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 06:56pm PT
|
Doug, fist let's assume we're talking about Yosemite with regards to rangers and 'public' land. Yosemite is federal land that was deemed to be so beautiful it was granted the status of National Park.
I think you agree there needs to be law enforcement in national parks because it draws so many people. If there wasn't LE, people would trash the place, drug dealers would set up marijuana farms in this safe zones, people would have free reign to be idiots, etc. LE is needed.
These law enforcement officers (LEO) would have to be a special kind of LEO that in addition to being trained in regular law, would have to be trained in park conservation, wildlife management, etc.
That's where the Park Ranger comes in. He does much more than give fines to drunks and litterbugs. He also manages wildlife and keeps people from destroying or abusing it. We all know people will do this. He protects the waterways and and general landscape from being abused.
I know you think you're above this, but nature needs to be protected from idiots who don't realize what they're doing. An example is posting signs to warn people not to leave food in their cars because it actually ineviteably results in the destruction of bears. It corrupts their natural behavior. Some people don't understand this. If you don't abide by these signs, you will be warned and possibly fined because your behavior (whether you know it or not) is contributing to the death/corruption of bears.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 07:18pm PT
|
"Obviously by making the correlation I a) got people to think about what the world allowed to happen in the 1930’s and 1940’s b) got people to consider how going down a simple path of limiting access to parks can have real consequences."
A simple path.
Its consequence (aka Zyklon B)
Aren’t we talking about a seasonal ranger?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
|
"There are many descriptions of the common law. Mine and others are correct. More detail would convey more knowledge. But under the common law, each PREVAILING law for each human action in the US can be identified in writing. You will agree with each one. So do I and everyone else, even criminals will when asked certain questions. That is how brilliant it is as a human designed device."
You don't know a thing about common law. Not one thing. Look it up.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
|
On one of his web sites Doug says that the Park Service put him in jail for a week, but he doesn't say for what.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
|
It was for Public Verbal Masturbation, a violation of common law.
|
|
yo
climber
I drink your milkshake!
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
|
For running ass naked through Fairbanks in his crampons with a Crisco can in his arms, singing Catcher in the Rye in tune to Foghat songs.
|
|
Svenska
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
|
nah, wrong guy, that was john waterman when he was running for public office back in the 80's
|
|
v10gripper
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
|
36 cfr 1.5(f)engaging in activity without obtaining permit 150.00
not quite 400.00....
still hefty, but its gotta be or no one would get permits
did i just open a can of worms?
seemes that a 400.00 fine would include some other wrong doing
|
|
MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
|
Well, ask him:
Doug, why'd you spend a week in jail?
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 07:52am PT
|
Gene....
"What happens when two reasoning and knowledgeable people come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?"
If they stop there, for lack of time, patience or interest, the two contradicting conclusions exist for further questioning by others. So common that it defines humans.
If they are in fact "reasoning" people, they will then continue asking and answering questions until the contradiction is resolved. Might take a couple more days.
That statement "loses" all humans except those few who have learned how to identify and ask questions of CONTROLLING CONTRADICTIONS. With that knowledge ALL human-caused contradictions can be resolved in a day or so of effective questioning process.
YOU can learn the process. Requires a bit of patience, like about a million times more than the modern sound byte trained American, but only about three times as much as is common among thinking people, within "reach".
It is just knowledge, learned the same way as all knowledge, by asking and answering questions, especially of your own conclusions.
As John states, egos indeed do corrupt reasoning. One hundred percent of the people in government power jobs, especially police, park rangers, prosecutors, judges and bureaucrats, have far greater egos than the common person who identified no incentive to get a government power job.
Consider reading that again, if you wish.
Fools trust public lands to government people with egos. The government protects nothing but its power, and uses resources for government (war) power. Its allusions to protecting things, upon DETAILED QUESTIONING, are illusions.
Alaskans use oil and caribou. Washington DC uses oil. John, BlueRing and colleagues do not trust the Alaskans, and trust the war regime thugs in Washington DC. Alaskans laugh.
The accusations against those individuals who cannot be trusted, are the ego-based excuses to create the government power that corrupts. Ranger Goebel could not trust those Gypsies and Jews, just as the other National Park rangers cannot trust those equal humans out there. We must know where they are, and what they are doing, because we cannot trust them. They are humans, and of course we are superior to those humans. Our government training made us superior to them.
I was among the genuine "elite" in the Army. It has always been a lie, believed by fools in government, and the fools who mouth their excuses to not trust those humans out there.
How can you logically not trust those people on the public land while you are they? You are the other guy to 6.67 Billion people. YOU are the masses. Why did Alaska have any wilderness for the Park Service to seize to protect? The concept of humans not trusting humans defines fools who cannot trust themselves, and who therefore hire humans to arrest them for doing what humans do, angering them so they retaliate against the humans.
Most private land is much better protected than most National Park Service land. A smaller percentage of individuals damage their own land, than the government damages its land. There are some classic examples, including where the Park Service has built is personnel quarters in Parks, and the many federal super-toxic waste dumps in Alaska.
BlueRing.... Your comments are like mine when I was in the Army. I was wrong. I was parroting excuses and laughably contradicting words fed to me by superiors. I learned that when I asked more questions of my words. Consider the process.
DirtBag.... I was most amused one time in Washington DC to ask a certain group of nationally prominent defense lawyers, including those who have successfully argued before the US Supreme Court, prosecutors, a State Attorney General, a prominent law school Constitutional law professor and their ilk, a judge, my colleagues at the time, what common law is, separately, not seen or heard by each other.
They each responded: "I do not know.", in those exact words.
Think. A law 101 student and any literate person can open Black's Law Dictionary, and memorize the definition of "Common Law". We are a common law nation. Why that unusually consistent answer from those particular egotists who prior routinely bragged about their GREAT knowledge of the law? That is a question.
DirtBag, You have been kept amusingly ignorant of the common law, by design of the power that the lawyer empire must defend from questioning. You make statements. You do not ask questions. Under the common law of the united States, is it unlawful (a crime) for a person to use power of office to impose an inferior law above a superior law? The answer is, Yes. What is your answer?
What is your reasoning for your conclusion that I do not know one thing about the common law? I could use your reasoning to correct my ignorance.
My knowledge of the common law has often intensely angered lawyers and judges, and benefited those who were taken to court under inferior law charges.
MZiebell.... I have often told and uploaded the fun story of my being arrested by the Park Service. It includes burley Federal Marshals maliciously shoving a female TV reporter/camera person back on the elevator to prevent her from filming my surrender to the Feds, twice, and very much more of grand entertainment.
I had prior mailed a series of letters, certified mail, return receipt requested, identified as record for court evidence, asking the National Park Service certain questions about their mountaineering regulations. The letters were mailed to Denali National Park, with copies going to other parks and the Secretary of the Interior.
As a known local mountain climber I expressly sought to be informed of the laws relating to climbing, so I could obey the laws when in National Parks. Some of my questions related to the common law, such as the question above that was in one or two of the letters.
The part that you cannot understand from these words, is that the questions were inordinately effectively worded and related to each other, to the extent of effecting intellectual technology.
But they were still just questions for which every casually curious non-government climber would like the answers.
Then one day I showed up at the White River entrance Ranger Station at Mt. Rainier National Park, with a colleague who had also asked similar questions, among some other climbers and a lawyer. I stated: Hi Tammy. My name is Doug Buchanan. Can I register to climb Mt. Rainier?
If I had a video camera instead of a tape recorder, I could have retired on the comedy that could have been made from that whirlygig. Two phones immediately went to Tammy's ears. She called for urgent back-up, and stated: "No, you may not".
I was later told that the feds had special Washington DC Park thugs at any Park where I might show up, Mad Madden at Rainier. I had prior been informed by Park ranger friends (fellow climbers turned Pigs, much to their amusement) that the Park Service had thick dossiers on me in National Parks even back East.
My only interaction with the Park Service had been letters asking questions, except for a couple uneventful climbs of Rainier back in the 60's, and maybe that "Go Home National Park Service" sign we lawfully put on the summit of Mt Drum. I also chit-chatted with the Interior Secretary and his Assist. Sec. for Parks.
The charges against me were "interference with government operations" and "business operations in a national park, without a permit".
I was involved in no business or perceivable business. My interference was described as my holding a tape recorder recording my arrest for holding a tape recorder recording my....
It is on tape. The idiots were so hyped up they forgot to seize the tape. This involved 45 minutes of them threatening me with "the law" and more, while I was politely asking them to inform me of the law I was required to obey at the time. That repeated question confused them for 45 minutes. Park rangers are that dumb.
We were casually smiling. They were mad.
During a friendly chit-chat when their adrenalin subsided after they issued me a citation, one of my arresting officers explained that the Park Service routinely arrests people on "general charges" and lets the courts sort it out. "We can arrest you for virtually anything. It's true." That describes the Gestapo, and the complete betrayal of every US war veteran.
The full (long) story is one comedy of Park Ranger and government incompetence and maliciousness after another, much to my grand amusement. Fun week in jail. There was the tea bag smuggling caper.
Therein I learned which type questions did precisely what to power-damaged minds.
This Park Service thing is only peripheral entertainment. You want world peace? Too easy. The process is only knowledge, learned by asking and answering questions. No government can escape because the power-damaged mind is flawlessly predictable for certain precise word stimuli, by design.
But there is no incentive. The mere suggestion so enrages people that they attack the messenger on schedule, rather than ask related questions, as has been the case for thousands of years.
Learn the human game. You will laugh the laughter sought by all people.
Eric... Get curious before you end up like Mad Madden, or you will.
May you learn the most knowledge of the most concepts, most efficiently, or have fun railing against those who dare to suggest that there is valuable knowledge out there among questions that inherently create knowledge.
Doug
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 10:29am PT
|
We can link this to the thread on evolution: One of Lois' dreaded traits has spawned Doug--a new species is born.
Buzz
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 10:44am PT
|
No kidding Roger.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 11:17am PT
|
So Doug: now that they know you're only asking questions which logical minded humans ask which the power-oriented thugs of the NPS cannot answer, how many climbs have you done inside of national parks since the arrest?
|
|
MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 11:29am PT
|
Doug said:
"I was later told that the feds had special Washington DC Park thugs at any Park where I might show up, Mad Madden at Rainier. I had prior been informed by Park ranger friends (fellow climbers turned Pigs, much to their amusement) that the Park Service had thick dossiers on me in National Parks even back East.
Don't get too excited Doug. Just printing out one of your web sites created a very "thick dossier".
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 11:48am PT
|
Doug, what was "the tea bag smuggling caper?"
How much did it cost you to get out of jail?
|
|
v10gripper
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
|
Can I hear a copy of that tape? I would love to hear it.That lawfully placed sign is litter, and what better place to leave litter than in the back country. I wont bother with the CFR violation and fine amount.I personally think you need a hobby, maybe some climbing would help you chill out.
What were the rangers names that were involved in your arrest?
I want to get this straight, all you did was ask to register for rainier, and two ranger totally out of the blue say,"your under arrest for interference with government operations and business operations in a national park, without a permit"
Sorry, but im just not going to belive that all you did was write some letters.
There is a big part of this story missing.
The NPS is not some perfect machine that does the right thing everytime, but for the most part it's "minions" really do care about their jobs and belive in what they are doing. Maybe I am brain-washed but I really do think places like national parks need to be protected, and im sorry but everyone(myself included) that comes into these places needs to conduct themselves in a manner that helps to keep them as natural as possible(that includes rangers not trying to be super-cops and climbers following some rules). Yeah there are some rangers out there that are wound a little tight,but they are few and far between.
The hated BABY TOOL
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 12:57pm PT
|
I think I figured this out.
The reason the NPS barred you from climbing and put you in jail was to protect the climbing community. I would not have expected that to matter too much in the great outdoors, but if I were the NPS I wouldn't take the risk.
“Couldn’t hear yourself think, much less the belay signals!”
Buzz
|
|
v10gripper
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 01:06pm PT
|
LOL!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
|
It will be a bestseller up there in the Panhandle Roxjox!
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
|
Yoooo the Master Coach.....
If you think my other words cannot be easily understood, consider my answer to your question, and laugh.
I do not climb in National Parks. I climb local. If local was a Park, I would drive elsewhere, FOR REASON. As the Japanese say, from the valuable Eastern data base, wilderness is freedom. When you climb in a National Park your mind knows or suspects that it is in compliance with the world's most illogical or contradicted government regulations, or in defiance of them, a contradiction. The Ranger can show up and cite you at any moment, for anything, as your mind recognizes and maintains in awareness by neural activity.
Now think. At that "point", time or area of your brain's thinking that you are discovering entirely new knowledge, or seeking to discover it, especially in relation to all humans or all things, your brain needs every possible chance that it has an unoccupied AREA of neurons available to synthesize an array of entirely new data, a complex process.
Existing contradictions usurp large areas of neural activity. The mountains, offering pure logic at the EDGE of human evolutionary training, can greatly advance your knowledge, if your mind is as free as possible within them, not distracted.
Or by analogy, people distracted by talking on cell phones while driving cars cause almost as many accidents as serious drunks and sleepy drivers.
Climb with a free mind. Learn more. Let the other climbers revel in the self-sustained ignorance of their craving to CONTROL those damn humans out there, especially those wilderness-destroying OTHER climbers, or be controlled, and laugh.
Why do you think the US climbers are so easily cowed into obeying the dumbest (most contradicted) government regulations on the rock? Look at the total number of climbers and their AmerAC/Access Fund rhetorically attacking anyone who suggests that climbers should be as free as the other people in the US, under the same impartial PREVAILING laws.
Your choice. With more knowledge, you laugh more.
Local climbing is the part of the Alaska Range outside the National Park Gulags, where ABSOLUTE MOUNTAINEERING ANARCHY reigns (void of government fussing over climbers), like most mountains in the world, vastly better managed, at no taxpayer cost for climbers, than the Police State messes made by tax wasting US National Park mountaineering thugs and their unquestioning supporters who are enraged or confused when the comparison is mentioned to illuminate all their lies.
And I routinely climbed in the winter, when you learn more faster in the Alaska Range.
The jail story is too long and funny for this forum. You get hot water in the jail cell, but it is a punishable crime to smuggle tea bags from the mess hall. It is a fun game, and constantly innovative. I accumulated more tea bags than I could use.
I was suddenly released without explanation. Shortly, a hot, stunningly beautiful, very fun, intelligent, witty, laughing, fire engine red hair babe in a red sports car, came to a skidding stop and picked me up. Not an arranged event. Well, isn't that the way it is supposed to be? I'm a climber.
Everybody asks all the details, over and over and over. I should have written the book, but books stagnate the advancement of one's knowledge.
Vertical 10 Gripper..... Ranger Mad Madden and his sideKick did not appear out of the blue. As I said, Tammy called for back-up, on two phones, for fear of facing a guy categorically opposed to any use of force, but very well known to ask questions. Soon Mad Madden's NPS patrol car almost ran into the ranger station, with squealing brakes, and Madboy came through the door already pointing at me and loudly ordering me to turn off the tape recorder.
No, the Go Home National Park Service sign was not litter. Litter is defined. Learn not to make a fool of yourself making government-styled accusations against anyone for anything to THREATEN them. Only government and such power-based institutions make humans their enemies. The sign was made by the local company that makes the official National Park Service signs, with the same materials, paint and specs used for National Park Service signs. The company was owned by the aunt and uncle of Roger Contor, the first Alaska Regional Director for all the new National Parks in Alaska.
The protest sign was lawfully placed, photographed with the climber protesters and left in place on the summit of THE PEOPLE'S MONUMENT TO THE FREEDOM OF THE MOUNTAINS (Mt. Drum). It has something to do with the RIGHT of Americans to peacefully protest the government, a concept that ENRAGES the Nazi-styled minds of National Park Pigs and their environmentalist worshipers. It is that stuff that the American military sorts whom you functionally hold in contempt, are told they are fighting for.
The photograph was published in the local paper. An 8 x 10 copy and full report were sent to the Park Service. The Park Service was forced to concede that the action was lawful, but the story got extremely interesting, with the VERY near self-induced death of 4 Park Service sorts desperately trying to create an excuse to arrest somebody. Anger facilitates stupidity. Bush is doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan, constantly slaughtering more civilians to "get" those people. It is effected by the same neuron group in any human brain.
If the sign were litter, who would be most littering the National Parks? Ask questions of your statements. You will learn much.
Other than the sign and the famous Alaskan Alpine Club poster (on the club website), protesting Park Service climbing regulations, all I did was ask questions, ON RECORD, several of them, perhaps many, of a certain word arrangement style, labeled for court evidence.
The human mind was DESIGNED to be categorically vulnerable to certain questions, especially after being damaged by the acquisition of power, or you would be under the rule of the Ghingus Khan family, and climbing would be free.
Well, maybe I posted some recent posts on SuperTopo. I better go check the perimeter to see if the Vertical 10 Gripper platoon is sneaking up on the Club HQ.
Spend your 14.95 on new climbing gear, then send a piece of your old gear to the AlaskanAlpineClub museum. We do not yet have anything from a Park Service climbing ranger. If we get any, it will be well displayed, and he or she can share the laughter if they visit the HQ. They are always welcome.
You meet the nicest people in the mountains. Some of them want to arrest you, but they are necessary for the comedy.
Doug
|
|
v10gripper
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 05:40pm PT
|
I conceed your right... and yes I have breached the compound, IM HIDING IN THE BUSHES!!!
I feel dumber for having been a part of this thread.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
|
Probably a bottle of Scotch there within reach.
More in the HQ.
Doug
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
|
Rokjox, if it makes sense to you, maybe you can translate for the rest of us.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2008 - 10:48pm PT
|
Buchanan said: "When you climb in a National Park your mind knows or suspects that it is in compliance with the world's most illogical or contradicted government regulations, or in defiance of them, a contradiction.
The Ranger can show up and cite you at any moment, for anything, as your mind recognizes and maintains in awareness by neural activity."
Hey man? Are you for real?
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Jul 18, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
|
WBraun and colleagues of the screen.....
"Are you for real" activated this entry.
This response may not be from a real anything.
I may be your computer.
You are an experiment of which you may learn....
Upon assignment, the National Park Service submitted to the CIA (Central Ignorance Analysts) one particular outdoor activity group for further study.
It was comprised of inordinately independent minded people who had no interest in forming a standard organization representing them -- the climbers. They are otherwise a cross section of society.
Organizations were therefore formed FOR them, or usurped from them, by the government, for the purpose of methodically working against the interests of the climbers, in the name of the climbers.
The organizations were designed to be noticeably pro-government and anti-climber, but fooling about 85 percent of the climbers.
The Park Service and various other government agencies were assigned to harass the climbers just a bit more than any other group. The techniques were minor denials of rights, issuing citations, arresting, jailing, fining, intimidating, accusing, etceteras.
The goal of the assignment was to keep track of an ongoing "base line" for how extensively government agencies can irritate a social group before any significant response is manifested.
Recently, with the advances of computer technology, a team of government computer geeks uploaded a periodic test program, one of which attached to the SuperTopo forum (climbers).
A computer generated "person" was assigned to suggest the wrongs of the National Park Service and other government harassment of climbers, and indicate effective process to correct those wrongs, to test the response.
The test was completed. The Welcome Ranger Eric thread was the primary thread, among others. You may have noticed the unusual nature of welcoming a National Park climbing ranger, among national climbers, in light of the history that interaction.
The responses were analyzed, and overtly obvious.
The climbers are still fully cowed by the illusions of the benevolence of malicious police and government titles.
The metaphorical jerking of the chain elicits an outpouring of "climber" support for the central authority thugs denying the rights of the climbers, and soundly denigrating any who express opposition.
Being concluded, the computer program simply activated a sub-program in each program participant's personal computer, that maintained the perception of an ongoing thread about the Park Service Police State issue, but not creating any uniform information among all climbers, that could create any uniform response by climbers.
If you compare what you read about the issue, with other climbers, you may discover that each of their computers are generating separate threads synthesized from the preceding data in their own computer.
At least 85 percent of you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, on schedule.
Your computer wishes you the best.
"Doug"
|
|
| Messages 1 - 62 of total 62 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!