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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 19, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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No, I'm not looking at getting into making software commercially. That said, there are a fair number of misc items I'd like to make up for myself that aren't life safety devices, but need something more than a speedy stitcher.
So is there anything between a generic seweing machine and a $5k industrial bartack machine that'll cut the mustard?
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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Mar 19, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
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-Immediate answer - NO
-Delayed answer - Maybe
Look into a used machine that doesn't run digital. However, your used market in AK may be limited.
Software implies you don't need a heavy duty tack. That said, I'd still do some research the tensile strength of your thread and tack stitch. Although, belt loops don't need to be certified anchor strength.
Happy stitching,
S
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Mar 19, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
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Watch your local Craig's List, or ebay. The are pretty rare, but a fair number of the LK-980 series tackers show up at a one ot two at a time rate. I got a LK-982-5 16mm x 28 stitch tacker for $700 off craig's list, and I am in the process of ordering the parts to change it over to a 1"x42 stitch tacker (Any of the LK-98X family share the same base machine and you swap out the cams, and a few other parts to change between the models and sub classes). If you get one and need manuals I have .pdf's of the users manual and parts book.
Be careful of shipping no matter what you do. A couple on ebay I looked at were $450 of shipping.
I lust for a $5k pattern tacker, but can't afford it, and can't really justify it.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2008 - 06:26pm PT
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I probably won't find anything locally, and shipping from the lower 48 can be a killer.
Is there any interchangability between various bases and heads? It seems there are some used industrial bartack heads that aren't too expensive, but a head with no base is no good.
I would be looking for a machine that is capable of sewing tubular webbing.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Mar 19, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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I re-read your question.
Look at the 20U family of zig-zag industrial machines. You can get them for the ballpark of a grand depending on used, new, or which model and manufacturer. You can do bar tack style stuff where needed, and the straight stitching will do so much more burly stuff than a home machine.
Since you are not a professional sewer, replace the drive pulley with a 2" one to slow it down to speeds mere mortals can sew at. Also consider a DC servo motor replacement for the motor, as they are far easier to control (read the reviews first, as not all are created equal).
Even a straight stitch industrial can do a lot, though bar tacking is a PITA. Those are more dime a dozen. Harbor freight for example sells a cheap chinese one, plus the table/motor assembly, for around $400 total. With #69 or #92 bonded nylon thread you can make some pretty burly stuff. Again, small pulley or lots of practice is needed to control these 5000 stitch per minute beasts.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Mar 19, 2008 - 06:35pm PT
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Bar tacking is not strictly necessary for tubular webbing. You can technically get stronger joints with pattern sewing than bar tacks. See the pattern I use with my single stitch industrial:
Ghetto Aider Instructions
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Mar 19, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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What Moof said, bar tacking is not necessarily necessary.
Way back when, I decided that having sewn slings would be cool.
I think the only one available at the time was the white
Chouinard gear sling.
I stitched samples up on my little 1951 Singer and had them
exploded at Chouinard's. Had to shop around for better thread
and had to work out the patterns, but eventually I was blowing
up their carabiners in tests.
I also made a very good backpack with that machine.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 19, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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Check with 'Erotic Frolic,' and their suppliers, they are down on this!
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 19, 2008 - 07:39pm PT
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Sail makers are a good place to ask around for awesome old machines.
They will tell you they don't have one for sale.
Of course not, because they are running machines that are from the 40's and 50's
(The Singer 107 is still the workhorse of the industry)
But if you ask correctly:
"Do you know where I could find a good running or rebuildable Singer 107 head?" you might make fast progress.
A table/stand and motor are totally easy to find used/cheap.Just getting the head is the hard part.
I have friends that bought a 107 head 30 years ago for like $600. You might pay double that today, say $1200 for a good head. But...
Your grand children will still be using it if you oil it once every two years. Ok maybe a little more maintenance than that might be required, but the point is if you want a 'bomber' machine to last for the rest of your life...
buy a 68 ford pickup, not a 2008 Japanese SUV.
Straight stitch or zigzag. It will make any width zigzag and take up to small rope for a thread and bobbin ;)
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Mar 19, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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I have a lead on a 107 for $600
Will this machine do bartacks?
I am a moron about sewing machines but I was thinking about getting a heavy duty model-Is this the ticket?
Thanks
murf
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 19, 2008 - 08:51pm PT
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Jaybro, I am impressed with the depth of your research... hahahahahaha!
Isn't there some video clip around or something?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Mar 19, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
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I have a bartack machine: Brother LK3-B430-2
Set for production full strength bartacks. 110 volt.
Yours for $4k.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Mar 19, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
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Skip the bar tack headache and expense.
There is nothing in my entire and vast product line that was not first, nor could still be, made with a regular industrial machine.
For a handful of goods, just ship them out to a stooge like me.... staple where you want tacks, etc etc....
Crappy China knockoffs of Juki machines are about 2300 - 2600 new.... real machines start at 3K and go to about 4.5K
That is a lot of nut to crack so you can have 10 slings, two rabbit runners and weed pouch.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Mar 19, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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Did someone say weed pouch? Does it come in shampelt?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
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Thanks for all the input, I'll be weighing my options and seeing what I can find.
I've always liked experimenting and making prototypes of various items, this is just another tool that will give me alot of new options.
Here's an example of some prototypes, copies of the A5 beak when it was the only one on the market and I figured a direct clip with teh added few inches of hight gained was a good thing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2008 - 07:37pm PT
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Only Dalmation™ and Zebra™, available to gun nuts™- Shack!
Haha, hoho
it's supposed to be funny, but we've all heard about how flat sarcasm comes across on the internet...
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 21, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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Hobo_dan:
Grab it !!!!
No a 107 will not do a bar tack automatically per se'.
However if you want just straight across bar tacks...
(not the 'X'd in squares)
Then with a 107 all you need to do is set the stitch lenght to almost nothing, and the narrow the sticth width a little. This is just a fast few revolutions of two knobs. You just blaze off as many tacks as you like and clip the connecting thread and bobbin line after.
If you can get a descent 107 head for $600.00 then jump on it.
If you can get the whole setup for that (table, motor and head)... then you have found a deal you'd be fool to pass up.
I have sewn on many a commercial/industrial machine.
The Juki's that Russ mentions are very solid yet as he says, even a knock off can cost 2-3K new.
A 107 will do anything from light, nylon fabric on up to about, er.. let's say 60 - 80 ounces of material build up (layers).
I would jump on that machine, even if it is just the head for $600.00 providing it is in good serviceable condition.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
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Looks to be maybe a 28 stitch machine, avoid it. For most gear related to climbing you want a wide 42 stitch machine at the least (ones setup to do 12-24mm tacks, not the 8-16mm Juki LK982 ones that are fairly prevalent).
I do all my stuff with a straight stitch industrial:
http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=496.0
Servo motor and/or speed reducing pulley is highly recommended to maintain control. A good bar tacker would be really nice though...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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Paul:
That thing blows.
here's why:
Two pedals instead of one
Not enough stitches in the cycle
Too much money
Parts might be a problem since that thing was made when Truman was in office.
By the time you re-cam it and get it ready to run for webbing, you will be into it for fairly large $$$$.
Best bet: with all the offshore outsourcing going on, watch for folded sewing shops unloading machines, or at real industrial auctions. Look into stuff like the LK1850 Juki or a similar knockoff, like a Taiko TK1942. Get the 42 stitches per cycle unless you dig the afterlife and want to see it soon.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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I did see that, but the ups shipping to AK is $495
So, going the industrial lockstich machine route instead of a bartacker, where do I learn the ins and outs of setting up a proper box stich to keep it all together?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Mar 30, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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If you are handy.... all you really need is the Head.... table is just a table and motor is pretty stock all over the world.
The head could be quasi disassembled and shipped in 19 USPS flat rate boxes. run you about $125..... ok... I made that up.....
but a head could be shipped via common carrier and maybe UPS for way less than the $400 or whatever. They are not really that big, but they are heavy. Maybe like 80lbs?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mar 30, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Paul-
Be very wary of bartackers. They're a bit like VW's (but way more complex): either you become a expert mechanic keeping it running, or your repair man is pretty much retiring off your frequent calls. Maybe they're more like Jags in that respect.
Unless you are going into production where you need the pretty stitch, you might want to reconsider the walking foot. The Juki 241 is my favorite. Then do your own "bartacks". I've tested (with a hydraulic puller) walking foot stitching vs. bartacks, and there's no significant difference in strength using four stitches, each going back and forth around 3 to 5 times.
I'm sure Fish covered all this, but just another second opinion.
cheers
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Mar 30, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Bartack machine = Higher-end PC = $5k
If you make use of it, it's worth it.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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Thanks for all the input. Looks like I'll keep my eyes peeled for an old singer. I figure between misc aid gear projects, and gear slings for the kids, the sucker will pay for itself. Not to mention with an older machine I should be able to sell it for what I have in it.
Now to devise some destructive testing for piece of mind. Also, mentioned was 69 or 92 thread, I know the 92 thread is thicker hence stronger, any reason not to use 92 on everything?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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Well I ordered up some 69 and 92 thread, remembering we have a singer 15 clone. I was all set up to get set up, but for the life of me I can't find the dab blammed sewing machine! It seems like it'd been in a corner here or there for years, always getting tripped over. So I go to get it, and it's no where to be seen.
Once I do find it, and make and break some test slings I'll have some spiffy slung aid hooks.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Paul;
69 or 92 thread: depending on who is the manufacturer, nylon thread at these sizes has a breaking strength of about 11lbs.+/-
The difference on which to use depends on what you are sewing. Basically, I try to use the thickest thread I can that will run smoothly through the machine, and lay down good stitches for the material thickness. In the bartacker, it is not uncommon to run 69 on the bottom and 92 on the top (or 69/69). This makes it a bit easier for the machine to tension the bottom stitches instead of leaving a mess on the bottom. This is especially true on narrow webbing, like stuff under 1". On 1" webbing, there is enough room in the pattern to even run #138 (depending on the webbing weave density) For something like a haul bag on a regular machine (regular being industrial walking foot), you could run #138 on top and #92 on the bottom. Does it really make a difference? Probably not. Just be sure to get BONDED nylon or polyester. Different brands have different bonding and some are much better than others. I've had good luck with Coats American thread. It seems to have the best bonding and the ends rarely if ever fray out when the cutters hit them.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Thanks Russ!
I'm looking at mainly sewing 9/16" supertape, so looks like I should stick with my favorite number, 69.
Guess I need to go speloonkin in the storage shed in the back yard as I think thats were the singer resides, but I'll be durned if I can find anything in that mess.
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Double D
climber
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"They're a bit like VW's (but way more complex): either you become a expert mechanic keeping it running, or your repair man is pretty much retiring off your frequent calls."
Truer words have never hit paper! (-;
It's real important if you are going to run production bar-tackers for webbing to sloooow down the the action with a modified cam otherwise you'll be spending lots more on needles and repairs.
I would just get a used walking foot or even a needle feed and you'll be fine for your own tinkering.
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FireIntheCity
Mountain climber
from t'Hate-haunted canyon of human despair
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So, Paul..... Did you ever get the machine?
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