Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 10, 2007 - 02:36pm PT
|
Has anybody used the BEAL rope maker ink, on non-BEAL ropes?
It says it contains butylic ester of gylcolic acid, and if being used on non-BEAL ropes, one should find out if its safe! Hence was wondering if anybody ever used it on Mammut ropes?
I read somewhere that even the fumes from car batteries can weaken the strength of slings, ropes and harness etc. Hence would have thought acid wouldn't be great for ropes either?
cheers for any feedback
Dirtbagger
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
|
Recommendations
• Never ever mark your rope with any kind of pen – even when approved by the ropes manufacturer.
• It is prudent to recommend that ropes never have any post manufacture marking of any type applied.
from here, page 28
warning - pdf file
http://www.canberraclimbing.com/runout/Mar-2005.pdf
not an answer, just more questions, could all be based on the 2002 data i've seen floating around (tradgirl i think it is...)
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
|
I've marked the sh#t out of the middle of a bunch of worn ropes with sharpies when they lost their middle marks. These ropes were probably five years old with hard wear. Took lots of falls on them afterwards and have never had a problem. Last one I used blackberrys to stain the middle as there were a bunch of them around and it seemed to work better than the sharpies.
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
|
From www.alpineclubofcanada.ca
MARKING OF ROPES
That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance). In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8 falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.
Last year this topic re-appeared on the Internet as well as in Climbing and Rock & Ice. In both magazines the use of felt pens was recommended for the (middle) marking of ropes, while the Internet correspondence centered on the damage. The press, despite being told about the possible damage, did nothing about it. Among the users there was doubt about the sources of the information.
Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application. Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held. Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry, possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope, but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the non-dry and superdry sample.
Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.
Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use."
The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen. Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is available how long they stay on.
The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?
|
|
Ron Olsen
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2007 - 11:57pm PT
|
People have been marking the middle of ropes with felt pens for years...and I've yet to hear of a failure in the field. There are more important things to worry about.
More people have died due to rappelling accidents (rope ends not being even) than ropes breaking due to middle marks created by felt pens.
Spend the extra dough and get a bi-pattern rope if you're worried about it; Mammut Duodess ropes are great.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 12:25am PT
|
Kinda crazy that there's no consensus on this basic issue after so many years.
I've been thinking of using a needle and thread and simply weaving some thread in and out of the strands at the middle and 30 feet from each end.
Peace
karl
|
|
slayton
Trad climber
Morongo Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 12:39am PT
|
I'm fuqued. Marked the middle of my rope with a sharpie. Many times over as the ink dissipates over time.
Karl, thought about the thread technique myself, but just for the middle. A little white thread might go a long way.
sean
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 12:56am PT
|
"I've been thinking of using a needle and thread and simply weaving some thread in and out of the strands at the middle and 30 feet from each end."
one word...
microfractures !!
seriously though - prolly safer than any chemical mark of any sort, imho...
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 03:38am PT
|
My climbing partner, who gave me the Canadian Alpine Club write up that I posted above, has been trying the thread idea. We will see how it works when we get back outside this spring. I agree with Ron Olsen that having an unmarked middle seems much more of a risk.
Erik
He also told me about the problem with using ropes that have been used for top roping as lead ropes. Link.
http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/forms/Vogel1.doc
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 03:54am PT
|
Metolius sells ropes under it's 'Monster' brand with flourescent 'whiskers' as middle and end markers.
|
|
Ron Olsen
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 05:50am PT
|
Folks, remember the last line of the Canadian Alpine Club report: "The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge."
The reduction in strength occurs only when the MARKED AREA is loaded. How many falls do you take where you load the middle of the rope? .... I see, none. Most falls load the rope about 10'-20' in from the end. Worrying about hypothetically loading the MIDDLE of the rope in a freak accident is like worrying about getting hit by a meteor while you're climbing.
|
|
dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2007 - 11:43am PT
|
Well the reason why I asked, is that I have a Mammut rope, which I have cut into 2 30m sections! To be used as a tag lin etc for an attempt at a continuous loop system for roped solo aid! So to make rope handling easier (using rope bags), I would like to mark the two rope ends (so I can distiguish them) and for re-marking the new middle of the two cords!
I have bought the BEAL rope marker but on reading the acid content etc wasn't too sure!
Labrat, mentioned ............."Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application."........
Can you tell me where you got this info from? Is there a report or other write up available?
I have asked Mammut directly as well, but still awaiting an answer from those guys!
Will post here, what their responds is!
cheers guys
Dirtbagger
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
|
I agree with the sentiments above that a potential reduction in rope strength by marking the middle point is not a concern. The exact center of a rope is exactly where strength matters the least. There is simply no way to put a large stress on this part of the rope. Marking with a pen may reduce the sheath strength at this point, but even if it is reduced to zero the entire core is still intact, and plenty strong enough for any load that can occur here. As has been pointed out, rappeling accidents happen all the time, it is critical to know where the rope center is. And of course, Duodess is the best solution...looks cool, too!
|
|
sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
|
In a fall the rope not only gets loaded at the point of the last piece of gear, but also at the belay device. So the chance of wieghting the middle is not as small as it seems.
|
|
dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
|
well the rope I would like to mark is a DUODESS Mammut cord! Its just having cut in in half, the middle markings are missing! And I would like to be able to identify, which end of the rope is which!
Threating a bit of cotton around the ends is one idea, but I guess tricky to make it easily visible?
Will see what Mammut gets back to me with
cheers
Dirtbagger
|
|
Ron Olsen
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 12:24am PT
|
sketchyy said: "In a fall the rope not only gets loaded at the point of the last piece of gear, but also at the belay device. So the chance of wieghting the middle is not as small as it seems."
Read the last line of the Canadian Alpine Club report again. Having the marked part of the rope at the belay device during a fall is NOT an issue. It's weighting the marked part of the rope OVER AN EDGE.
|
|
mike hartley
climber
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 01:36am PT
|
Karl,
I did the needle and thread routine many years ago. I gave up and went back to using a Sharpie death-marker. It took a good bit of thread and weaving to be durable/visible enough to do the job. That added enough bulk to make it a pain passing through belay devices. I think it also (slightly) increased the chance of the rope snagging when retrieving the rope from a rappel. Possibly a higher quality, more durable, nylon thread than I was using could work.
"Sharpie" sure does sound like it would cut your rope though doesn't it? :-)
|
|
Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 11:59am PT
|
I’ve been sewing thread into my ropes for years. If it is a dark colored rope, I use dental floss; if it is a light color rope I use a heavy weight black nylon thread. I spread the stitching out over about three quarters of an inch and don’t make it too thick. The threads quickly get chopped into a bit of fuzz, but they don’t come out. You can feel the spot going through a belay device, but it doesn’t tend to snag. I’ve been doing 5 and 10 meter marks from each end and the center if it isn’t a bicolor rope.
A fringe benefit is that the white fuzz freaks people out: look at that core shot!
|
|
| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!