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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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"Dirt, I was really good at math early (thru the first year of algebra) but teachers ruined me."
Gnome, you wrote this. Not me.
The only thing that I know about you is that you live in Sick Midget Land.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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please re-word your Post Statement.
that allows (selected) students.
=
could be very low cost, and equally accessible to each student.
not being cynical about supporting technology, just don't understand your Math.
i trust the local school bond committee has your support? cuz' i know you're to smart to buy lottery tickets.
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gw
Social climber
washington, dc
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If you have not taught in public school, you have no clue.
TEachers deal with very screwed up kids. Abused, drug babies, unfed at school, late, lice, gangs, drugs, single parents, uniterested parents, poverty, kids that arent put to bed, parents that party with their kids.....it goes on and on. Then the teachers have to teach them? its a parenting problem in our country, Hold them acountable!
IF sh*tty parents would stop sh*itting out sh*tty babies, wwe wouldn't have sh*tty schools.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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You guys are absolutlely KIDDING ME, right?
Dirt's comment about only qualified to teach with a PhD? Hah. I don't think you know the intricate level of knowledge one has at that level. It's like rating a 5.6 climb when you climb 5.15a. I already have education overload when I teach college students and all I have is my Masters.
People learn best when they teach the material. Every single one of you, given the basic pedagogy and a decent textbook should be able to teach long division.
If students don't learn in schools, a LOT of that can be laid at the feet of the parents. Parents have to encourage and reinforce what's being taught at the school level or . . . you're right, it is a waste of time.
Jeebus. You're killing me.
I need to keep ranting . . . if I blamed all my problems learning on my teachers, I would not be where I am today. It still floors me when my students tell me they are repeating the course I'm teaching because they didn't like the teacher. It's YOUR responsibility to learn the material, and the teacher facilitates it. Parents support, you support, they support. That's how it works.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Perhaps we need to hand over 100% of the responibility of teaching kids to the parents. And let Teachers put their education to work doing other things.
If a parent doesn't care enough to make sure his kid is educated, why the hell should any of the rest of us care?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Trad has identified a real problem. Many elementary teachers are horrible at math. One solution would be to have teachers who specialize in math and move from classroom to classroom.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Or only hire Teachers who can do math.
And fire those who can't.
It ain't rocket science.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Mac, I would consider the education I received throughout my life to be quite exceptional. I spent long enough in college that I ought to know. But, a bad teacher is darn near impossible for a CHILD to get past. Once in college (and maybe high school) I would agree that it is up to you to learn and in fact most professors seemed to be quite good in college. And I would also agree that without a parent helping then kids don't take school seriously and it is unlikely that a teacher can overcome that loss. Still, I really wish more teachers were better at their jobs, which really means that I wish schools could actually attract qualified people.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Perhaps we need to hand over 100% of the responibility of teaching kids to the parents. "
Thanks for briefly giving us a tour of conservative dreamland with that and the "more money than ever is going to education" quote. The responsibility of teaching IS on the parents. I'm pretty sure we are the ones who organized governments to organize schools to take part in educating the children, and also have the option of pulling our children out of those schools or remaking the school system as we see fit.
There are also more unfunded mandates than ever being thrown at the school system with the No Child Left Behind program, requiring that schools spend lots of money and time on testing and test prep and not a whole lot more for paying teachers. You DO get what you pay for which is why we have the biggest and baddest military in the history of the world and crap for education.
Enough with the "throwing money at the problem" shtick. Of course money alone won't solve anything but creative solutions cost money in one form or another. If fixing inadequacies in our military was labeled "just throwing money at the problem" conservatives would have a field day. I don't see how education is any different.
"Or only hire Teachers who can do math.
And fire those who can't.
It ain't rocket science. "
Which requires that you offer salary and benefits that will actually attract teachers who have taken the time to learn it and have the skills to teach it. There is a huge difference between knowing how to do math and knowing how to teach it....and an even bigger difference between that and WANTING to teach it.
We need to make teaching a hero status job like firefighting.
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Festus
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ed,
I couldn't agree more, and your post instantly becomes one of my all time favorite serious contributions to ST! My brothers and I had the same kind of parents, who gave the same kind of support to our teachers, and put the responsibility of learning on us--which, in turn, made even the mediocre teachers of my childhood pretty damned effective, and gave the good ones almost magical powers. Anyway, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. Thanks.
And to my parents, my apologies for not including you in my post in the Algebra thread. What was I thinking?!
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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"Still, I really wish more teachers were better at their jobs, which really means that I wish schools could actually attract qualified people."
I just don't know. I have friends who teach elementary and junior high in remote areas like the great white north of Canada (we're talking daylight all summer, etc) and these kids consistently fail despite teachers who try their best.
It all has to do with location, Gnomed One, I don't know where you grew up, but I grew up in a rich town in a good location, all the teachers were quite exceptional. When they say "teaching shortage" they mean "inner city" or "undesirable locations."
I know I would rather scrape by in a place like where I live than be in the trenches of Compton. It would have to pay VERY well and even then . . . what can you do?
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Kristen, I grew up in Arcadia, CA. It was fairly affluent and I learned a lot. But I learned a lot because my parents made me and because I loved learning. But then I was always one of those kids that made life miserable for the teacher cause I was always bored. Heck, I probably made the whole educational process worse for everyone else because the teacher was needing to deal with me and my boredom. Unfortunately the public education system is not designed around the top students but rather the dumb ones so that they can get the dumb ones to graduate. Until you get to Junior High at least you are stuck in a mixed class. Even after that there are bright students and not so bright students and both ends suffer.
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Zam
Trad climber
San Francisco
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You guys are missing the point. If you really want to get to the bottom of the whole thing, read Dave Eggers new book "Teachers Have It Easy: The Big Sacrifices and Small Salaries of Our Children's Teachers"
There are two types of teachers; those who really want to do it, but get paid sh#t and are completely overworked (don't kid yourself, a good teacher will work well over 60 hours a week, including on vacations, and still have to find a full time job during the summer) and those who have figured out how to do the bare minimum, knowing that they will never get fired.
The real solution is to eliminate this stupid NCLB and actually do teacher evaluations on their in class performance.
My mother in law is about to retire after 30 years in the classroom with a masters and a CA creditential and she still makes less than a dental hygienist with 5 years experience. If you want to fix education in this country we need to DRASTICALLY increase the wages to draw those people who want and CAN teach (the worst teachers are the one who have the most education. Just because you know the material does not mean you can actually teach it!) Instead of this stupid war in Iraq, with what we have spent, we could have given every teacher in the country an extra $20,000/year for the duration of the war! and eliminate (read FIRE!) those who are too lazy and incompetent to do their jobs.
And finally, we need to quit treating school as daycare. Parents need to become responsible for their kids and their kids education. I spend half my day dealing with issues that should be taken care of at home.
Fix these two things, and we will fix the educational system. Finally, if you really want to fix the system, get some educators rather than politicians to make the guidelines regarding education, and increase the workingman's wage to keep up with inflation so both parents do not need to work 50 hours a week and thus use school as daycare!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:14am PT
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I AM a teacher;... have been for 25 years;...and let me tell you;...all them little numbers;...well.....yeah;...they mix me up.....(Aren't there calculators now-a days for that sort of thing?)
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Festus
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 10, 2007 - 03:57am PT
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Gnome,
I've got to say again that Ed H. has got it absolutely right. I'm sorry you had a sh#t experience until college, and I'm sure you had some crappy teachers, but just five good ones from K to 12? That's damn near mathematically impossible. And, actual criminals aside, a bad teacher is not that hard for a child--with the help of his parents--to overcome. 38 or 40 bad teachers like you had, well, yeah, that'd be tough, but I find it hard to believe there are many other people, if any, who went through Arcadia's schools with you who would condemn most every teacher in that system. It just ain't possible. I give you tremendous credit for being honest about what a pain in the ass you were in the classroom, but in admitting that can't you see you've got the whole thing backwards? Most of the responsibility for your sh#t experience has to be on you or your parents. Hell, you may have been the next Einstein for all I know, but if that was the case your parents should have put you in M.I.T. when you were seven.
And comparing college professors to elementary and secondary teachers is bullsh#t and you know it. By the time you get to college, where you get to pursue your own interests on your own time, a good lecturer in a subject of interest to you is an awesome teacher. But don't confuse that with the kind of teaching we're talking about here. Apples and oranges.
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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Parents will always need free day-care...especially for their disobedient, hormone-induced middle schooler!
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:35am PT
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LEB...while your point is valid in a way...have you ever been a teacher?...if not, then you're talking out of your a$$...if so, nevermind.
the problem is teachers don't make enough to support a family, but at the same time if nobody is competing for their job then they're hard to replace...and trust me, even teachers want those crap-teachers to be replaced.
another problem is administrators! some are down to earth good people...some are full of hot-air, and will take all the credit for your hard work because they're climbing the education ladder to who knows where.
college-like prep schools make the most sense to me.
keep the motivated ones in school...let the geniuses like Ed go to college early if they test-out, and let the losers go climb rocks, drop out and get dead-end jobs in hopes of being on the cover of a mag or catalog some day.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:51am PT
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Being a middle school math teacher in inner city oakland, I have an idea why my kids do not score as well as others. So many of my kids parents are SO fuc*ed up....I have kids who are in gangs, I have kids who are definately illegal immigrants, I have A LOT of kids being raised by thier grandparents.
My kids actually do have a lot more important things to worry about than learning algebra. Like not getting shot.
Blaming teachers pisses me off. Yes, there are shi**y teachers. Always have been always will be. To always have politicians tell me how to do my job is laughable. Step into my classroom and try to do my job. My kids will eat you alive.
I don't want to offend anyone but...Iwould bet that most people on this forum are white middle aged and have a salary well above $40,000. It's easy to armchair quarterback education. But, until you have been in the classroom, all you have is an opinion.
And opinions are like armpits. Everybody has one, but most of them stink. (that's the line I give in class when my kids are bitching and moaning...)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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I have a teaching credential for High School Social Studies so I'm not totally without qualification to state an opinion.
Which is that computer programs and audio-visual teaching methods are underutilized and that a well executed combination of live teaching and visual aids are the ideal.
Math can be extra boring and hard to visualize. A media solution that visualizes the relationships like a teacher could never draw on a blackboard can work wonders in understanding, and it would be much easier to illustrate the real world applications of the Math involved to provide a bit more context and motivation to the kids.
Only the most amazing math teacher in the world can stand at chalkboard and make this stuff interesting, or even very clear.
Seems like common sense to me. If I talk to the kids until I'm blue in the face about some foreign country or period in history, it just can't compare to actual images of that place and reinactments of that history with costumes, language and so on.
Sometimes I think teachers protest too much about this stuff for job security reasons. (btw, I'm not doing a teacher job cause the pay and hours aren't enough to lure a dirtbag into a straight job. The system sucks. You're always reinventing the wheel and the textbooks are ancient and useless)
Peace
Karl
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andanother
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:20pm PT
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I think everything should be taught by comuters. That way everyone will be as socially inept as Rajmit!
This thread explains a lot.
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