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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 4, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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There are often debates about climbers with 'natural talent' postulating that some top climbers are born with natural talent and that no matter how often you train, how often you climb outside, without the necessary 'genetics' you have no chance of reaching the dizzying talent of climbers like Chris Sharma or John Bachar.
Read more at... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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thanks Mick,
UKClimber is evolving (at least as I remember it) into an interesting, literate resource.
I think what is the interesting subplot is the possibility that physical limits imposed, ultimately by our genetics, put an upper end on climb difficulty. So even if you practice, practice, practice, are disciplined and genetically hyper-adapted to climbing, there are still limits to hard you (and by inference, anyone else) can climb.
What is fascinating to me is the absolute belief that there are no limits... we aren't ready to reduce climbing to "mere biomechanics." The misguided fear is that somehow, it losses its true meaning in the process. Never could understand that arguement in anything (but then again, I'm a physicist).
Sorry for the thread drift.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I agree, weschrist... but you cannot prepare to execute beyond the physical limits, how close you get is both physical and mental preparation.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Humans generally tend to suffer from a lack of forward vision. There might be limiits to cliimbing possibilities and there might not be.
let me ask this, in hindsight, what are the sports or endeavours where the limits have already been reached and no progress has been made for a generation or two?
Just because we don't know how the next level is reached doesn't mean it's not possible. could be genetic engineering, could be "mind over matter."
Peace
Karl
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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I find it amusing that each generation tries to define the limits of difficulty to satisfy their egos, and each new generation shatters those beliefs.
Physical ability is limited to what is believed to be possible. With the nearly endless combination of possibilities that natural stone can yield how can we truly believe we have reached our human genetic potential?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'm not in it for the ego stroke, I haven't reached the limits of my generation yet, for a variety of reasons, and I'm not making excuses.. and I don't believe that those in my generation reached the limits of the sport, either.
Injuries are an indication that the outer limits are being explored. One can think that injuries are the result of poor training, bad luck, etc. which they can be, but often the injuries are starting to show the physical limits of a body. Since there are variations of body type (sort of the topic of Mick's post above) who reaches the limits when depends on their genetic makeup. There is a bio-physical limit to strength.
On the positive side of the "limits coin" is the fact climbing has attracted a set of people who can climb at a level approaching the physical limits. That means there are a lot of talented people out there climbing hard. And I applaud it all!
I don't mean to be a buzz kill, I don't mean to indicate that it has all been done by "my generation" I don't mean that at all. But I do think that considering what the limitations are you can become a better climber. There is still a lot of room at the top for progress to be made and some incredible climbs to be done.
Go do it!
But as weschrist said above, believing in the 1 minute mile is not sufficient to get it done. Perhaps it is the tyranny of biology, chemistry, physics which denies us.
...You can't always get what you want,
But if you try sometimes you just might find,
You get what you need...
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HJ
Social climber
Bozeman, Montana
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It seems to me that we are still nowhere close to reaching our potential. The incremental leeps may be smaller as we become more talented at a sport, but advances in training techniques combined with increased imagination provide plenty of room for advancement. A recent article in the New York Times PLAY Magazine "How to Grow a Super Athlete" is worth reading. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/sports/playmagazine/04play-talent.html Talks a lot about some recent findings in brain research that apply to ability in sports. (It's what the UK climbing article used as it's source.) Also, don't discount advances in gear either. I am now more technically adept at ice climbing than I was 25 years ago. This can be attributed almost completely to modern ice gear. Sure, there are limits to what ones individual body can do, but there are an infinite number of ways of approaching movement, so if you're body can't do one thing, maybe it can do something else. For example a tall person may be able to reach a hold a shorter person can't, but the shorter persons smaller mass may allow using a small intermediate hold a larger person can't. Lots of other examples if you use your imagination. My suspicion is the generation of young climbers that is now developing may well blow our minds.
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Sheets
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think training will be the big thing that moves the sport forward. My impression is that there is only a small number of people who actually train for clmibing in any meaningfull way. Compared to many other sports the competition and incentives to train hard don't seem to exist.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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I don't have it around here, but I think in "How to Climb 5.12" Eric Horst makes a pretty good case that mid 12's is where most people can get with training and technique, genetics and talent are the name of the game beyond that.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Long jump world record history.
1935 Jesse Owens held world record until 1960 (25 yrs)
1968 Bob Beamon held record until 1991 (23 years)
1991 Mike Powell holds the record today. (16 and increasing).
5 of the top 10 long jumps in history were done by Carl Lewis who never held the world record. (He also has half of the top 22.)
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mlongok.htm
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Sheets
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think the progression of fastest marathon times is interesting:
I think after 1980s East Africans really started dominating the sport while American men started going downhill.
If I had DataThief handy it would be fun to fit the curve as an 'estimate' of what's the best time a human can run 26.2 miles.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The chess world has basically reached this threshold and is grappling man v. machine. We don't have the same competition via robotics in [rock] climbing, but the point is easily made in almost any sport that humans are working ever closer to biomechanical tolerances. Olympic time differences have been shrinking fast with events measured in hundredths of a second. No one is going to run a one minute mile, a one hour marathon, or climb 5.20. I'm with Ed, what we have and do is proud and can be extended in endurance, altitude, and conditions - but we are zeroing in on pure difficulty at a fairly fast clip (as it were). Those chess players grappling with the limits of human capability are having to make peace with those limits, so will we at some point in the not too distant future.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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I don't agree with U.K.'s article. Most of us are born with the aptitude but never work enough to reach those dizzying heights of what is possible. I would say it is only a small minority of the population that is limited physically.
I think if you are willing to center your life around climbing, work out daily, study the art of climbing, study nutrition and kinetics, etc.... If you can dream "BIG" and work towards it, everything is possible.
Erik Weihenmaye can do it, he is a climber that made the first paraplegic ascents of Half Dome and of El Capitan. Imagine what we can do with all our facilities if we only worked at it.
The fact most of us haven't is that we are too distracted, lazy, and have other goals that prevent us from reaching a climber's greatness.
Anastasia
P.S. I am not a great climber, but at least I know my failure is more out of laziness than physical limitations. That is what keeps me dreaming that one day... Well one day I will get off my ass and do something interesting.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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"I think in "How to Climb 5.12" Eric Horst makes a pretty good case that mid 12's is where most people can get with training and technique, genetics and talent are the name of the game beyond that."
Yeah he does. Sigh . . . but some have to train harder than others. Just when I think all my joint drama is stabilized and I'm ready to push my limits, back to square one. Eric, keep telling me that. :)
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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I don't agree with Eric Horst book. My friend Eric Shaw is over 300 pounds and he does climb over that. Now, don't tell me it's because he is genetically gifted.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Well, only one in two million people has what we call the "evil gene". Hitler had it, Walt Disney had it, and... Freddy Quimby has it. - Dr Hibbert
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WBraun
climber
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Why would one want to be Super Climber?
What value does this have?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Says the guy that hasn't left the Valley in 30 years and solos at the Cookie every afternoon ;-)
That's a cool chart Sheets, thanks.
Michael Jordan is the old standby example. We call him talented but he wasn't...or at least if he was he blossomed really late. Cut from the high school basketball team his sophomore year, he worked harder than anyone else after that and never EVER stopped. Guys are getting drafted out of high school these days but then sitting on the bench because they are 'talented' but they aren't training that hard.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Horstsh#t,if you want it enough, can train enough, and can tap into the nonphysical parameters you can surprise yourself.
Now if I could only think beyond the move in front of me...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Wes, I think we're talking two different things: climbing to one's physical limits and humans climbing to the limits of the human body. We can all improve on climbing towards our physical limit, but humans aren't going to climb orders of magnitude harder than they are now. Again, no one is going to run a 1 minute mile, the biomechanical design of our bodies just simply precludes the possibility regardless of how hard you want it or train.
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