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Hootervillian
climber
back at Zak's
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 10, 2006 - 09:37am PT
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What are the 'guidelines' for a gear stash.
Fair Game?
Time Dependent?
'Ditch' rules vs. Backcounrty rules?
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426
Sport climber
last slope on Fish Market Traverse. LRC. TN.
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Mar 10, 2006 - 09:43am PT
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I sense a "paradigm shift".
Not touchin' this one with a 100 meter brushing pole.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Mar 10, 2006 - 09:48am PT
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would you want someone lifting your stash, no matter how long you planned on leaving it? Personally wouldn't take it unless the owner of said stash said "go for it".
Peace
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Mar 10, 2006 - 09:59am PT
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My take:
"Fair Game?"
Uh, seriously? Not unless you don't mind me coming into your house and taking things I like while you're gone.
"Time Dependent?"
Only after a STUPID amount of time, and even then you're scum if you don't make every effort to contact the owner.
"'Ditch' rules vs. Backcounrty rules?"
Only difference I see is that in the Valley you are more likely to be spotted and get the ass-kicking you deserve for taking gear.
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426
Sport climber
last slope on Fish Market Traverse. LRC. TN.
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Mar 10, 2006 - 10:19am PT
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The "Law" labels them "abandoned property". I've had (more than one, apparently) gear caches lifted by pirates.
So I guess the whole "ignorance of the law" pertains to me here...
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Mar 10, 2006 - 10:24am PT
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If it ain't yours don't touch it. Any straying in your mind from that fundamental truth should make you reconsider your alleged importance in the gene pool.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Mar 10, 2006 - 10:38am PT
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426 -
I'd say you aren't the ignorant one, the people who robbed you are. What the law says has NOTHING to do with whether or not it's right. You were robbed, they were pirates, end of story.
Also, to be clear, when I said a "STUPID" amount of time above, I was thinking several years. I'd say removing a gear cache is legit at the point that the gear is trash and you are thus removing trash from a natural area, not grabbing freebes.
--->bob
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Hootervillian
climber
back at Zak's
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2006 - 10:38am PT
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maybe it's Nevadas fault. seems once you cross the state line, any rules seem to become more like actual guidelines. aaarrrghhhh
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426
Sport climber
last slope on Fish Market Traverse. LRC. TN.
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Mar 10, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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fuggin' "social librul" NV. shells everywhere, moto track everywhere, red lights everywhere, fence "makin's" everywhere, take your pick for the "rubbish pile", it's all heading for the "big hole" (Carlin Trench) anyhoos.
Trash blows east, that's one tidbit everyone should know about the state....
Thanks oopsie, that somehow is a soothing balm for all the stol' piles in the ditch and "neverland"...pssst-don't mess with my 'piles' out in the Schell Creeks...
What a pile of hypocrisy; I'm all in all of a sudden.
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Hootervillian
climber
back at Zak's
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2006 - 11:00am PT
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What a pile of hypocrisy; I'm all in all of a sudden
must be the wind. if you wait around long enough 426, there is some hardware in the clan alpines blowing your way.
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426
Sport climber
last slope on Fish Market Traverse. LRC. TN.
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Mar 10, 2006 - 11:05am PT
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sssssh. Clan Alpine is secret...
Yarrr, it's a foul'n wind a blow'n.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 10, 2006 - 11:16am PT
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the "Golden Rule"?
I always think about it like this: "if it was my cache, what would my reaction be?"
If someone was to just out-and-out poach it, I'd be pissed.
If someone was in desperate need of the contents, I'd be happy that it was available to help them.
If someone wanted to "borrow" pieces of it, put what's in good shape back and replace what was used up, I'd probably be ok with that... annoyed though if it was an unacted upon sentiment.
If I put the cache somewhere that is heavily used, or in some obviously stupid place, I would feel that I got what I deserved were the cache to disappear... my bad.
I also feel bad if I put a cache out somewhere that I never seem to return to, just junk rotting out in the "wilderness", trashing up the place. Maybe it would gain in historic value decades from now, I'd still feel embarassed if it came to my attention that someone stumbled across it.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Mar 10, 2006 - 11:18am PT
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i've always left a note with cached gear; indicating my contact information, the date the gear was cached, the purpose for the cache and the date at which it becomes booty. i think you should always include a booty date, why just abandon your shite when if you dang well know your not going back it get after a certain time somebody else can raid the gear. heck maybe they'll even drop you an email and say thankya.
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426
Sport climber
last slope on Fish Market Traverse. LRC. TN.
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Mar 10, 2006 - 11:46am PT
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mebbe...
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spyork
Trad climber
Fremont, CA
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Mar 10, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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I will go with Ed's Golden Rule answer. Whether its climbing related or not.
It seems our society has way too many people who have never seem to have heard of the golden rule. It's all about themselves.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 10, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
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Hmmm, bet I can guess where this thread started…
So, if I see garbage that is not mine, I shouldn’t touch it? Damn, someone is going to want to kick my ass for picking up all their trash out there last week…
The small pile of gear that we removed last year looked like it was abandoned. Now, I normally don’t worry about what is “abandoned” and what isn’t and I would never even THINK of touching anyone’s gear stash in the Valley, etc. I’ve always thought if it ain’t mine, don’t touch it. EG and I went through a bunch of BS after A raided his gear stash at the base of Bushido back in '99, so I know what it’s like to see someone have their gear pinched.
We found the stash while on the (long) approach and we were very surprised to find it, just sitting in the open next to a boulder; it was not hidden at all. There were two water bottles with plastic labels that had decomposed in the sun and they looked like they had been there for years. The rope was in a rope bag and was half covered with dirt; water had been flowing over it during heavy rains. Upon opening the rope bag, we found the rope to be moist (in warm/hot dry weather) and covered with mildew. It was trashed. The rest of the gear was in OK condition, with a little rust on the pins. I honestly thought that the gear pile was truly abandoned and the owner was not coming back for it. I viewed it as cleaning up trash out in the middle of nowhere, rather than stealing someone’s gear. I don’t need any more gear… And I’m not about to EVER steal anything – I hate thieves with a passion. 426 (bro) is welcome to his gear whenever he would like it back, as I have told him.
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426
Sport climber
last slope on Fish Market Traverse. LRC. TN.
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Mar 10, 2006 - 01:57pm PT
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Legally (rule of law, peeps) it was abandoned. Really, it's kind of like "what if that gear was in the rock"...bootylicious...
I'll tell a Gene Drake via Royal Robbins story about this later...
I'm just pokin' people in the back with sticks here. I'm sure Hoot has his own Mpemba effect going on as well. Looking foward to terrazing the Purgs on a 4 stroke, technically.
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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Mar 10, 2006 - 02:33pm PT
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I agree with the golden rule. Out of curiosity, why would people leave their rack somewhere obscure? The only reasons I can think of is if you need to get back to civilization quickly because of weather problems or lack of food/water. (And if people are leaving their gear just to store it, can you lend me some?)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 10, 2006 - 03:45pm PT
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>why would people leave their rack somewhere obscure?
It is most often done when working on a project with an approach of over an hour, and you have to retreat back to your car (either because you are a weekend warrior, or because of weather). By not having to carry the rack/rope again, you can bring more ropes, water, food, etc. next time, or just hike in faster.
Usually the plan is to get back there in a few days or the next weekend. Sometimes the plan gets interrupted if your partner is injured, etc. So sometimes you have to go in and retrieve the cache without actually climbing anything.
Edit:
If you have to cache gear, it's usually important to hide it, whether it is buried under some talus, a fixed rope that blends in with the rock, or something not easily visible at the high point. Otherwise your gear may be stolen. And, nobody wants to see cached gear in the (nominal) wilderness, so keep it looking clean/natural or people may be motivated to get rid of it. Obviously, some fixed gear like bolts, hangers, occastional rappel slings, etc. stays in place for long periods of time, but don't push your luck on a gear cache.
Also, gear tends to get trashed in a cache. Sun quickly bleaches ropes, rain oxidizes aluminum quickly and rusts steel. If you put gear in a sealed "dry bag", it can be even worse, as the air will condense inside the bag and make everything moist and then oxidize quickly. This is one of the reasons why caching is risky. Critters will also eat stuff, like leather on boots; bears will bite into cans, etc., so one of the basic rules is to not cache any food.
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Mar 10, 2006 - 06:18pm PT
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I haven't joined the cyber conversation for a while, but now that a tele accident (MCL) has me trying to ignore the fresh powder I might as well hop back in. For those I haven't met, I work as the climbing ranger in Yosemite (seasonally), and this is a topic I've dealt with many times.
First off, for the record, here's the "official" deal on stashed gear (cut and pasted from the climbing info board in front of Camp 4):
Quote -
The Rules:
Property left unattended in Yosemite for longer than 24 hours can be considered abandoned and impounded. However, the National Park Service recognizes that there are circumstances when it is impractical for climbers to return to their gear within 24 hours. In such cases we ask that climbers leave ropes and equipment in place only as long as they are actively working on a project. Note: "actively working" a project does not include taking a week off to go surfing, or otherwise abandoning your gear between convenient trips to the area.
The Reasons:
Stashed gear, food, water, and fixed ropes in particular, take away from the sense of risk and adventure that climbers and other wilderness travelers expect to experience. Most of Yosemite’s climbing areas are in designated wilderness and must remain “without permanent improvements or human habitation… with the imprint of man’s work substantially unnoticeable.” (1964 Wilderness Act)
Wilderness, and climbing in particular, is not intended to be convenient or easy (ironically that’s why many of us are drawn to it). Please do your part to maintain Yosemite’s wildness by removing abandoned equipment. In 2001 volunteers and rangers removed over four thousand feet of trash rope from Yosemite’s walls, not including a few thousand feet of junk rope removed from the Heart Ledge rappels by conscientious climbers. Did you know that “I’m a lasagna hog” spelled backwards is “go hang a salami?” Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Unquote -
So there's the official deal. Many of you will no doubt immediately want to take up the question of what constitutes "working a route." These rules leave some flexibility on that question, and that's intentional. I wrote the above rules (guidelines, policy, etc), and I included that flexibility because the alternative was to simply copy the 36 CFR legal code upon which these rules are based: if it's left more than 24 hours, it's abandoned. I don't want to walk around Yosemite's climbing areas with a stop watch, and I would imagine you don't want me to either. So where does that leave us?
The bottom line is: don't stash gear for more than a day at a time, and if you "have" to, mark it clearly and come back as soon as possible. 24 hours is the law, but we can all use some common sense; if you act in good faith, so with those of us tasked with protecting Yosemite's wilderness. As a side note... every time the park has to deal with someone's abandoned stash, it's get harder to maintain this flexibility.
It's easy to forget, but most of Yosemite's climbing areas (including all of the popular big walls) are in designated wilderness. This means we need to treat them as such, and in return we get to enjoy them as such. Wilderness is not convenient, and for many of us that's why we love it. If you can't complete your project without leaving gear for extended periods of time, maybe the project shouldn't be done... or you should bring your skill level up to where you can do it in a style that is appropriate in wilderness.
Sounds harsh, I know. Many might point to Harding's first ascent of the Nose and the amount of fixed gear he "had" to use... or other classic climbing tales that involved huge amounts of stashed gear. True, some of these feats might not have been possible without such tactics, but in response I'll point to the second ascent of the Nose... or the first ascent of the Muir Wall, or...
Rather than argue over what we're "allowed" to do, why not instead impress each other with what we're capable of doing? Anyone read Tommy's article in the recent Alpinist? Pulled their ropes after each session on the upper pitches of the Nose? Now that's style...
As usual, I'll take a beating for the bad guy here, but hey, at least now the conversation is more interesting.
It's not what you do, it's how you do it that matters.
Cheers,
-Link
PS: anyone got an MRI set up in their garage I can borrow?
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