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Gordon
Trad climber
South Florida
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 7, 2008 - 10:53am PT
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February 7, 2008
The White House said Wednesday that the widely condemned interrogation technique known as "waterboarding" is legal and that President Bush could authorize the CIA to resume using the simulated drowning method under extraordinary circumstances.
The surprise assertion from the Bush administration reopened a debate that many in Washington had considered closed. Two laws passed by Congress in recent years, as well as a Supreme Court ruling on the treatment of detainees, were widely interpreted to have banned the CIA's use of the extreme interrogation method.
But in remarks that were greeted with disbelief by some members of Congress and human rights groups, White House spokesman Tony Fratto said that waterboarding was legal and could be employed again "under certain circumstances."
Fratto said the nation's top intelligence officials "didn't rule anything out" during congressional testimony on CIA interrogation methods.
Nice...
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dirtbag
climber
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Torture is so un-American.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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"Americans do NOT torture!"
...we just redefine it
(in other words, "it depends on what your definition of [torture] is")
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That's good stuff.
Americans do not give in to terrorism
We BUY into terrorism, SELL into terrorism, but we never GIVE into Terrorism
Peace
Karl
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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Amen, Karl B.
It's interesting -- as far to the right as John McCain is, he nevertheless takes a pretty firm stand against anything resembling torture. I guess if you were tortured continuously for seven years or so, it would tend to influence your point of view on the subject.
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couchmaster
climber
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The best statment on this issue was given by Steven King, the horror writer.
he said (paraphrasing) If it's not torture, then GW Bush should allow Jenna Bush should volunteer to be waterboarded.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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It's pretty clearly torture, and has been recognized as such for a long time.
There probably are some very special circumstancess where it and other methods of torture are acceptable.
But one should not make law around very special circumstances.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Maybe we should swith to Electric Shocks instead of Waterboarding?
Juan
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Uggggggggg! And even though I'm to the point, I don't think I'd even suggest that this administration all qualifies to be waterboarded. They just need to be confined to small cells like they have the innnocent in Gitmo confined in, and let them out to clean all the bed pans of the soldiers that have been handicapped by their imperialistic war.
But you know, that may be cruel and inhumane too.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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They could just send em to me and I'll drag em up chimney's and OW's
;-)
Karl
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Karl
I wouldn't want to be that close to any of those creeps.
Do yourself a favor and don't volunteer! :-)
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couchmaster
climber
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At least they aren't sending these Muslims who only want to kill and main us over to China claiming they are Falun Gong Practitioners or other like minded Christians who hold beliefs which the government claims are "incorrect thoughts".
This is what incorrect thinking gets you in China.
Here's some illustrations of Torture Methods Used to Persecute Falun Gong Practitioners (9 - 12)
(from Clearwisdom.net)
Torture Method 9: "Feeding the Insects"
(Caption: Police say, "Whoever does not obey us will be tied up outside as food for the mosquitoes!"
In the summer time, especially around dusk or dawn, the police strip practitioners of every piece of their clothing and handcuff them to a pole in a place where mosquitoes and other insects swarm. Practitioners are bitten over and over again all over their bodies by various insects. Not long after, their bare skin is covered with itchy bumps. Sometimes they cannot even open their eyes because their eyelids are so swollen.
This torture was often used by gangs of bandits in the past to punish captives who violated their rules. Sometimes people even died from being bitten by poisonous insects. Now this torture is used by police in Chinese labor camps to torture innocent people who believe in "Truthfulness-Compassion-Tolerance."
Torture Method 10: Pouring Freezing Cold Water Over People
In the freezing cold winter, the police instigate criminals to keep pouring cold water on practitioners, causing them to be frozen, suffer frostbite and numbness. Sometimes part or all of their body would become paralyzed. Some people even suffer loss of speech and memory.
Torture Method 11: Electric Shocks
(Caption: the prison doctor says, "Captain, he has passed out. The voltage won't go any higher. What shall I do?")
What is displayed here is called the electric needle. The police can adjust the electric current and voltage at will. If the voltage and current is high, the victim would bounce on the bed from the shock. He would suffer cramps all over his body and incontinence of his bladder and bowels. If the victim has a weak heart, he could easily die on the spot. Many practitioners on hunger strike are repeatedly subjected to such torture.
Other similar torture methods include: long-term shocking with high-voltage electric batons, cranking a hand-crank telephone to generate electricity to shock practitioners who are tied to with the telephone, using medical devices to generate electricity to shock practitioners, lining the walls and top of a small cage with electric needles to shock practitioners who relax or drift off to sleep while chained up bent over, unable to completely stand, squat or sit (a cruel form of sleep deprivation torture that is sometimes used for weeks on end), etc.
In order to achieve their goal, sometimes the police employ various means to make practitioners suffer even more. For instance, they shock practitioners with many electric batons simultaneously; they soak practitioners in water and then shock them; or shock sensitive parts of the body, including eyelids, soles of the feet, armpits, neck, etc. After the electric shock, the skin would be badly burnt, develop blisters and even fester. Such torture also causes damage to the internal organs and nervous system. Also, the victim suffers from psychological trauma.
What's more despicable is that the police shock practitioners' mouths, private parts and anus for long periods of time. They even shock female practitioners' breasts and private parts, sexually violating them while shocking them with the electro-shock batons.
Torture Method 12: Stabbing with sharp objects
The police use a screwdriver or other sharp object to stab the back of practitioners' hands, attempting to force them to give up their belief in Dafa. The victim will bleed profusely and often pass out due to the excruciating pain.
Such torture is extremely brutal. Other similar means include: nailing bamboo spikes into practitioners' fingers, chopping [hitting] practitioners' hands with hard-soled shoes, hammering practitioners' hands with a hammer or drilling into practitioners' hands with an electric drill.
2004-5-27
Posting date: 6/11/2004
Original article date: 6/8/2004
Category: Eyewitness Accounts
Chinese version available at http://minghui.org/mh/articles/2004/5/28/75748.html
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couchmaster
climber
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What were we talkin about?
Oh, those jackasses who are trying to harmonize themselves. Quite the threat to the Chinese govenment.
Here's what they believe: "Falun Gong, or just Dafa) is a high-level cultivation practice guided by the characteristics of the universe—Truthfulness, Benevolence, and Forbearance.
"Cultivation" means continuously striving to better harmonize oneself with these universal principles. “Practice” refers to the exercises – five sets of easy-to-learn gentle movements and meditation. Cultivating oneself is essential; practicing the exercises supplements the process."
__
Makes you wonder what they do to the Muslim terrorists they catch...and they do have them there.
Of course, they do not have a press that reports all this, and they block the internet sites they don't like, that would be allowing incorrect thought. So I guess we don't have to worry about it.
Ta ta, later dudes and dudettes:
Bill
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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I like the Chinese argument/logic. 'At least we aren't as bad as they are yet.'
Maybe as long as we can point out someone else in the world who tortures more we will be morally ok with ourselves.
Or maybe since they torture people for their beliefs where we just torture people to find out information we should feel better about ourselves.
Does anyone know the percentage/number of Gitmo detainees that have been charged with anything, and what those charges have been? Interesting fact to look up.
I think the Chinese actually have people who are already guilty of something, and are using torture to punish them for that. Besides the color of their skin, the majority of Gitmo detainees have been tortured for nothing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Chinese Government Asshats make me sick and our government virtually ignores their abuses and has got so far in bed with them that we can never stand up in the future.
Regarding the waterboarding, they are forced to claim it's legal so they don't face war crimes trials. Previously, like their other crimes, the policy has been "Don't ask, cause we don't tell"
Except for civil liberties, where it's "Don't bother to tell, cause we're eavesdropping anyway"
All preparation for civil unrest when the US economy falls apart and people threaten to rise up out of their complacency
The war on Radical Islam is a sham. An excuse for a permanent wartime economy and to circumscribe civil liberties at home in a way that citiizens won't dare object to until it's too late
peace
karl
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couchmaster
climber
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" I like the Chinese argument/logic. 'At least we aren't as bad as they are yet.' "
That wasn't my argument AT ALL.
I was wondering how many of you who endlessly bitch and moan (and I'm glad we have the right to discuss this sh#t in public in this country, cause we all know waterboarding is wrong) about the things our country does has said even 1 F*ing thing about the sh#t the Chinese do over there.
Galen Rowell spoke up, which is why he got booted from China and Tibet (which the Chinese call China) for eternity.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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cause we all know waterboarding is wrong
We do?
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Social climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Waterboarding is dandy
so long as it is done offshore
...it's not done within the actual US boarders is it???
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