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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 22, 2004 - 02:01pm PT
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I've been using a reverso for a few years now, and I love the autolocking belay for belaying up a second. It's a great thing. However, problems begin when climbing as a threesome with skinny ropes. Petzl says that you can't trust the autolock in this situation (with ropes less than 9mm.) My doubles are 8.1mm and my main climbing partners' roeps are 8.5mm. So, today, the Mountain Gear catalog showed with not one, but two new devices intended to address this.
One is the reversino, a special reverso made for 7.5mm - 8.2 mm ropes. Sounds cool, but presents some new problems:
 my climbing partners' 8.5mm ropes seem to just be left out in the cold. Can't use a reverso or a reversino with them for climbing with three people
now, I have to make sure I bring the correct device depending upon which ropes(s) we're using that day. Kind of sounds like a pain in the butt.
The other new device is Mammut's Matrix, which claims to work with 7.5mm - 10.2mm ropes just great. I don't have or have access to any ropes greater than 10.2mm so this seems like a slam dunk. Only problem is that I've not been able to find any reviews or talk to anyone who's used one. Anyone used one? Thoughts?
Here's some real gear info that the mags could research that would actually be useful to me. Wonder if they'll even think of it.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Mar 22, 2004 - 06:42pm PT
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There's another new one to throw in the mix...the Trango Cinch.
Wait, never mind...I guess that's only good for 9-11mil.
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Milkdud
climber
San Diego
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Mar 23, 2004 - 12:19am PT
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Hey Forest, Next time we're out, you can use that weird device I carry for doubles..the one that looks like a mutated Gi-Gi and Figure 8. It's called a Magic APD and is available from Trango. No problems with thin lines; however, it is finicky with what lockers you use. Cheers, Michael
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2004 - 01:09pm PT
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Yeah, that's a pretty funny-looking device, but it makes sense how it would work:
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davidji
climber
CA
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Mar 23, 2004 - 01:22pm PT
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The Matrix looks similar to my B52 with a few key differences:
1. It has grooves on the brake side, and may lock harder, making it easier to catch a leader on one skinny half-rope.
2. It has one hole on top instead of using the two slots. Autoblocking with doubles on the B52 I need a biner in each slot. With one centered hole, only one biner required. I wonder if the autoblocking mode is as smooth/balanced (with one rope or with two).
Note that unlike your Reverso, the Matrix has a wire loop, which I think (but I don't use the Reverso) makes lowering a autoblocked second a little more complicated.
There's also the TRE Sirius. Haven't used it, but I think it's supposed to be easier than Reverso/B52/Matrix to lower a fallen second. Heavier and more expensive than the Matrix or B52.
Another David mentioned the Cinch. It looks pretty nice (like a lightweight Grigri), but it's for singles (which explains the 9mm min rope size).
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2004 - 01:37pm PT
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Hmm. I have never found an instance in which the hard metal loop (as opposed to wire) ever cam into play in my reverso. At least not one that comes to mind. So far as I can tell, the reverso could easily have a wire loop also and it would make no difference. that having been said, lowering an autolocked second with my reverso currently *does* suck, tho I did eventually figure out somethign workable; so maybe there's some way to use the metal loop that would make this easier that I'm not aware of....
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davidji
climber
CA
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Mar 23, 2004 - 02:23pm PT
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I'm not a Reverso user, but I thought you could pull the metal loop up to unlock, rather than pulling the brake rope up.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2004 - 02:52pm PT
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Forgive me if I'm crashing a thread strictly for tech geeks, but Stich plates, which have existed for many years, are small, light, and indisputably bomber. They have two rope holes and if you nip off the spring, it will autoblock with ropes between 8.5-10.5mm, and I've rapped a 5mm with it. Best and simplest device ever made, for my money.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Mar 23, 2004 - 04:53pm PT
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I had a 200+ lb guy on my reverso in blocking mode with double 8mm 1/2 ropes. No problems at all. Rappelling with those skinny ropes on reverso is a little bit faster, but I just clip a binner on the leg loop and thread the ropes through it...
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2004 - 05:49pm PT
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"I'm not a Reverso user, but I thought you could pull the metal loop up to unlock, rather than pulling the brake rope up."
I guess you could, but so far as I can tell, it offers no mechanical advantage over pulling on the biner that's hooked through the rope. And I'm not at all sure that that thin metal loops is really thick enough to take that kind of a load (i.e. the climber's full body weight.)
"it will autoblock with ropes between 8.5-10.5mm, and I've rapped a 5mm with it."
Hmm. I didn't know plates would lock. How do you get it into/out of locking mode? Can you point to a diagram or general description of how this works? Is it really locked well enough that you can safely take your hand off the belay?
"I had a 200+ lb guy on my reverso in blocking mode with double 8mm 1/2 ropes."
Yeah, it works fine if your second is tied into *both* ropes, and that's generally been the case. But sometimes, we climb as a group three, with each of the two followers on one of the skinnies. Petzl has a great big warning on their website about the lock-off not working real well in this situation if your ropes are less than 9mm.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Mar 23, 2004 - 06:14pm PT
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re."Hmm. I didn't know plates would lock. How do you get it into/out of locking mode?"
Stich plates have a tendency to lock up if they don't have a spring. That's why they started adding a spring to the design. Ben Wah is suggesing removing this spring in order to take advantage of the ability to lock off. I guess that's an option but I remeber stich plates with no springs to be a pain in the ass. It's been a decade since I've used one so what do I know.
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Mar 23, 2004 - 06:28pm PT
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forrest-
that's why you evolved a break hand...
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2004 - 07:01pm PT
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I wouldn't recommend ever taking your brake hand off with the stich plate, but the force necessary to catch a fall is nil, and if someone's hanging, it is incredibly easier to hold them than with an ATC or Tuber. To lower someone I just take the plate with my non-brake hand, hold it up off the 'biner a little bit, and let rope through with my brake hand. That way I can vary the amount of friction, depending on the weight of the person. It takes a little getting used to, but I've become very comfortable with it. The best thing is how low-profile it is when you're squeezing through a tight spot. Oh and, to rappel I mimic having the spring on, if I wish, by clipping two 'biners through the bight of rope between the locker and the plate.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2004 - 07:06pm PT
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Gee, Matt. That was really helpful. Thanks.
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