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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 28, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
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I've started re-reading Plato's Republic. It occurred to me that the parallel's about the climbing community and the questions Socrates asks are directly on point to climber's ethics.
As a result I'm starting a trend, well maybe it will. This is one thread. If you see this type of title and want to contribute or not, you'll know that this is a thread for ideas. The next one might be episode 2 - Aristotle Ethics, or whatever...
As a practice, we'll ignore the blather and focus on responses. Leverage the username and quotes in the replies, if you would so we can track on the idea at issue.
I'll start with a simple one...
Socrates is down at the local outdoor event with fellow Athenians. They get into a discussion about what is "good" and in their discussions they get into a dialogue about what is 'just'...
Thrasymachus drives the discussion in haughty tones and says "I proclaim that justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger."
Socrates comes back in his round about way and questions the proposition seven ways from Sunday.
Eventually we get the idea that Socrates thinks that justice might be a virtue, but he really doesn't know in Book 1 what justice is, nor can he say whether the just man is happy?
Is Socrates right, at this point? Is justice really unknowable? Could he be pushing for some kind of nihilism in an oblique way? Is he just exploring ideas?
If justice (or good climber access) is really not knowable, would Socrates push in the same way or would he just grab what access he could get and go climbing anyways?
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MH2
climber
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Aug 28, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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"Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they climb wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist forever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do"
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 28, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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I read the Republic, so I know the answer is: we can only be happy and ethical climbers when the three parts of our soul balance together in harmony. Otherwise, forget it dude, because that black hungry horse or that white spirited horse will taking you, literally, for a ride.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 28, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
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Justice? I haven't read Plato so I've got no cheats here.
What kind of justice are we talking about. The kind where someone is accused of an offense and must be tried and if found guilty sentenced?
Or are we talking about Just Rules? The example of climber access is mentioned.
Just rules seems more interesting to me. I do think such things are possible. A just set of rules for climbing access might for example allow climbing but with limits that respected environmental impact and allow for safe climbing. Stay on established approach trails, remove garbage but allow fixed anchors.
This is just because it provides for users now and in the future. Climbers rarely are in direct competition of resources with other user groups such that if a climber is climbing no one else can do anything. Climbing access is usually pretty simple to set up justly. However one might argue regarding fragile routes such as supercrack that more restrictive measures could be justifiable.
Justice would seem to require measure via a set of agreed principles.
Freedom, Responsibility, Impact on other people. weighing of conflicting interests. This can get complicted fast in some cases and sometimes it is not possible to give everyone all they want. What is just then.. is difficult to determine but effort made in attaining it makes the world work better.
To think that justice does not exist would suggest that proper rules do not exist. I think a simple cursory consideration of a lawless customless society and its dysfunction should make it clear that justice exists and is important.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 28, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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I recently read Plato's Republic (okay, I read Wikilies about it :), isn't the question "what is good climbing"?
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