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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
The Peaks
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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UKC gear reviewer Toby Archer puts the DMM Dragon Cams and the Black Diamond Camalots head to head, to find out which are best...
"Black Diamond's Camalots were revolutionary when they first came out as they were the first camming units to use a double axle..."
"With the Dragons, DMM have clearly tried to take the best parts of the Camalot design and then improve on it..."
Read more http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=435755
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mucci's comments here on the Taco sum it up.
One word - Thumb Loop
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Munge- it aint that simple. I'll bring my set out and you can play with 'em. Ys, even at the Pinns.
I'll say this, if I only bought one cam I'd buy the C4's. The flexibility of the thumb loop for free/aid makes sense. Having said that, If I bought 2 cams, I might do one of each.
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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They do - people think I'm Flemish.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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1 word: Camalots.
OK, - in a head to head comparison Camalots outperform the Dragons, for less money. Is that too many words?
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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yeah, pull the lycra out and hike in your dark black dress shoes. Go euro!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Maybe a waloon?
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Yaybro...what in the world is a waloon?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Over simplification but, what you are if you're French Belgan instead of German Belgan/Flemish.
I like the way Wa-Loon, sounds
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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Walloons, i think, are partial to Camalots; Flemish, Dragons.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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ha ha ha, I like it. And I like C4's and Dragons.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Wild Country. I'll just keep my friends.
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Cam Wars what a joke. fact is that the prototype for the DMM Dragon had a thumb loop but it was squashed by BD for potential patent infringement. They saw the versatile nature of the Thumb loop with the C 4 but could not capitalize on it. Bottom line is there is no such thing as a Magic Cam. For example take a typical 5.10 Yosemite Route. One should be able to climb it with a combination C 4s, Friends, TCUS, Dragon Cams, Aliens or Master cams not to mention passive pro as well. if you cant make any of that work you dont belong up there pure and simple. They all do the same thing.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Slakkey....you are correct sir. Hexes, no, old skool. Slung machine nuts.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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thumbbers and fumblers unite!
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sos
Trad climber
nyc
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re: Skakey's post above... I'm pretty sure the thumb loop was dropped because of the various design features DMM sought to include, the extendable dyneema sling was preferred. Engineering tests showed that type of sling snapping, however, when loaded on a wire thumb loop in high load falls. For this same reason, BD has had to stick with a less versatile (and cheaper) doubled up, wide, nylon sling in its thumb-loop design.
There is almost certainly no patent on a thumb loop and numerous companies (including Wild Country, which is related to DMM) make cams with that design.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Thanks for the link of the review Mick. Having used both side-by-side on high mileage freeclimbing, I can unequivocally tell anyone that to me: the Black Diamond Camalots are better. I don't mean like, Oh, they're cheaper so get them". I mean like: BETTER. (note PERIOD at end). By the way, I can get DMM Prodeal, and I am a DMM fanboi from way back. Big time. Love everything they make...even have a full rack of Wild Country Heliums (which DMM makes). Generally, I feel that DMM makes better stuff than Black Diamond. Until now.
In my mind, DMM, by choosing to copy the Camalot design, essentially confirmed and validated that they thought it was the best design out there. I like the extended range the dual axle gets you, but actually prefer Metolius and Wired Bliss as you can carry more cams for less weight -and they grip better than Camalots. I often have both on my rack for that reason. So DMM copied it and tried the Thumbloop, and the prototypes had it with the doubled up sling. They were trying to shave weight, which we all agree is a good thing. Yet the rumor is that the strength wasn't there using the doubled up skinny sling DMM wanted to utilize so there redesigned it. Are the DMM lighter, uh, yes but it's marginal at best. Are they better? No, the reverse. Just take a pee before you step off the dirt and you'll be there in terms of weight.
opps, off to diner....
Back ..noshed a Taco...
They place as good as a BD, the missing Thumb loop which on the ground and in the store seems so important, doesn't matter as much when you are pumping out and thinking ledgefall, they stuff in as fast as anything. No, it's the overall (shorter) length, which makes it a tad more difficult to get them out when they walk in, OR if you choose to extend the doubled up sling (an idea that on the drawing board is great but in actuality sucks) your 2nd gets totally hosed when they make to to the crux and either A)try to rack the damn thing by doubling the sling, or B) say "screw this I'm getting trashed and pumped and will make the move with the F*ucker doubled out/extended" and in moving have this damn thing hanging as low as their junk but they high step right onto it making the move, pining them imobile. In either case, if you choose to extend the sling, somebody MUST rack the c*#ks@cker back and if you are cranking epinephrine or another long route and really don't prefer sleeping in the dark on the hard dirt in the freezing ass desert air you will be cursing having to re-rack every damn time the sling gets extended.
Now the Black Diamonds I have looked at carefully as well and in fact talked this over with one of their product managers: Bill Bailey. If he doesn't exist, then it's some other guy with a similar name and I might have been drinking but ain't owning up to it. Here's the point. Bill asked me this: "How many climbers do you know who have re-slung any cam they ever owned...like ----ever?" I admit that I do not know anyone, and that I am serious that I do have that on my personal to-do list to resling my old Wild Country ridged stems from the 80's that have my original tied off with a waterknot sling/webbing......and I reflect on my Chouinard Hexes, some of which still have the original perlon 40 years after I tied it on there...I know JUST what Bill Bailey is talking about here. So I confess, (which always feel better as confession is good for the soul, but doesn't do sh#t in a fall to really strengthen the slings) and Bill asks me if I have seen the reports of the strength curve of the skinny slings similar to the ones that DMM choose to use for the Dragons ...I admit that I had read the reports that Joseph Healy (of Supertopo D5 Hammer fame and others) had tested some of his early Mammut super skinny 8mm and they go all to sh#t fast. (I still love em) In fact, you know how Mfgs say to retire crap, usually too soon. When you read that you should retire your superskiny slings after 3 years, that's the Gods honest truth.
Therein lies a conundrum. Cause you will need to resling these darn DMM cams every few years or less. How many of us will really do that? Some of us might do it right away to avoid having our partners extending them on lead, leaving us screwed and pumping out at the crux trying to rerack them. Compare that to the bulky Camalot sling. I would have considered the DMM system better as the skinny sling makes the unit a smidge lighter, but the reality is that in 3 years, you punch a Camalot in, run it out and are looking at a screamer, the sling will hold. In 5 years, in 10 years, in 20 years: the sling will still hold. DMM, don't even consider it.
opps desert....pause....
Ok, last issue and for some the biggest. Anyone ever see one of these?
Metolius fat cam. Great concept. The idea is the fatten up the cam lobes so that on soft rock they will not so easily track out of of the rock and thus fail. You don't have to climb on soft rock they work well on hard rock too. Some people will have a set of these just for flying into Indian Creek, Zion or Red Rocks.
Note that the DMM is the opposite of a fat cam. In fact, although I didn't mic it and slap the Mitutoyos on it, it visually appears skinnier than the Black Diamond lobes. You can see this yourself if look at the red and green in the picture of Micks link where the Camalots are right next to the Dragons. This is an issue of lesser functionality in the real world and actual use. They did this, I suspect, to shave a bit of weight, but it doesn't shave much off. Do you mean to tell me that the vaunted DMM engineers, who are world renown for their ability to move metal via hot forging, were unable to forge a cam lobe that was fat on the business end and thin on the non-business end? Please, just sell me a bridge. I suspect that it's laziness, born out of trying to achieve an advertising edge (ie, "our cams are lighter than the Black diamonds"), which they are marginally: meantime, the BD'S are sticking during real falls and holding your ass off of the deck. Maybe not as good as the Metolius or the Wired Bliss do, but damn good. Form follows function, not the reverse.
Can't believe that DMM boffed this one, but they managed too. DMM wants to manufacture "premium kit" and sell it at a premium price. In fact, their entire line except for the Dragons is truly generally worth the premium they are asking. But in this case, they managed to spend a lot of effort knocking off something much like the Chinese do, and like the Chinese in the process amazingly missed some key points in the process.
If you could buy them at half the price of the Black Diamonds, then I'd say, hey, if you can't afford the Camalots, do it. But the DMM cost significantly more in the US. I'm a gear whore, anyone who knows me knows this. But I do not own, nor will I own, the Dragons. Should someone give me a set, if I only had them, and not every other damn cam made like I have: I'd use them for sure.
DMM needs to step up their game. That's all I know. Looking forward to the new Wild Country Helium Cams, perhaps DMM is involved in Mfg them like they are in the W.C Helium carabiners, and maybe they can utilize the world leading DMM forging techniques like should have occurred with this design.
That's my thoughts. Your mileage will vary:-)
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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I have a few of the DMM 4cu, in the #2 Camalot size, which I bought to save a little weight. I have never found it to be a significant issue for the second to rerack them. They do have extendable spectra slings through the U-stem, so in that case they are saying the doubled sling won't cut. I think they use 10mm size spectra, which seems to be lasting fine. Not sure why DMM would go to 8mm on the Dragons, which only saves about 1g.
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