Old School Climbers vs. New School Climbers

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Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 26, 2009 - 01:10am PT
A lot of people have told me since I first started climbing back in July that the main thing that I should do is buy a few books, learn the history of climbing and come up the right way. Chris Mac's guidebooks mostly all have history of the climbs included in them. There's lots of history on this forum and this Web site and we have some of the greatest climbers and First Ascentionists posting on this forum everyday.

But I've also noticed another world of climbing out there that I am not entirely sure lives on this planet of the Taco. They are the Type A personalities. You know, the ones that work out everyday. They get yoked up and are involved in Pose Down Safaris. They are hotshot climbers who don't offer up respect to the pioneers of their sport, choosing instead to make their own history. I've watched climbing videos here and there and some pay homage to the greats, but others seem to highlight the raw power and climbing ability, not taking into account the person who made the first ascent of a certain climb being filmed.

What is it about these two or even three generations of climbers that causes such a clash? Are all new school climbers pitted against old school climbers? Or is it just a small, rogue group of climbers choosing to forge their own way steering clear of the fray of mainstream rock folklore?



Afghani aka Mason eight oh five.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 26, 2009 - 01:13am PT
Perhaps a misconception, give it time.
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Oct 26, 2009 - 01:32am PT
As in all forms of life there are differences or simply variations...
and what Jaybro says.
To discover and ponder something that is grander than any one individual is a special thing, embrace it or knott...

Cheers,
DD
Fogarty

climber
Back in time..
Oct 26, 2009 - 01:44am PT
Old School Or New School (Enjoy Your Time In School)
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
Oct 26, 2009 - 01:47am PT
We all make our own history.
Right?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 26, 2009 - 02:12am PT
There's nothing disrespectful to the past about making your own history. That's what climbers do. Any art form that lives exclusively in the past quickly dies.

John
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 26, 2009 - 02:25am PT
depends on where you climb. in places with rich histories (JT, Idyllwild, sierras) it seems that it is omnipresent. In those areas climbing is a foundation of one generation building on the next, but also piercing through. Things were done decades ahead of their time and people know this. Things bachar did thirty years would still be newsworthy today if a new gen climber did it. Routes done in the sixties and seventies in CO still have that aura, even with sticky rubber and cams and sit harnesses.

The top end sport climbing, project sending, grade pushing climbers don't necessarily need to constantly tip their hats east. There's plenty of folk who have the perspective to realize the magnitude of those that came before him. Someday we will all be waxing poetic about the great stuff caldwell and honnold did at the turn of the millennium, too. So its all a cycle anyway.
hooblie

climber
"i used to care, but things have changed"
Oct 26, 2009 - 03:28am PT
if i may be so bold as to call myself old school, i'm here picking up stitches that were missed forty years ago. that is to say bachar wasn't striding all around yaking eichorn, underwood or weissner. but the record was thin enough, that we accidently learned to spell them.
it may be that what you're calling old school has just lately gained the age of respect, notable exceptions not withstanding.

my mentor picked me up for a couple of years precisely as a result of an air of snide condescension that split the cadre into those that could take it and those that couldn't. i was very lucky to spend rainy days rolling around being schooled in jazz "history" all of 10-20 years precedent, so while lester young, or art blakey was blowin' all about the bridal veil lot brother barry was pointing out the lesser known works of sacherer, explaining the context of kor's days in the valley. this from a kid in his early twenties. the cool thing was,
this "history" was still steaming, brower was layin into them, rowell was catching rays of light, harding still twisting 'em off.

eddie was seething with respect, i'm sayin' he was tied up tight with it! he'd polish his glasses after the rain,
stop bopping long enough to get them back on his head, and look me straight in the eye.
looking to see if i was GETTIN' it, man.

ah sh#t, largo just posted down below. i was just going to go off about him and how i come here
to pick up stitches, like what he wrote about his wilts connection.
but i'll show some respect, the man is in the house

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 26, 2009 - 03:40am PT
They are hotshot climbers who don't offer up respect to the pioneers of their sport, choosing instead to make their own history.
-


That's how the young are supposed to act. Otherwise they wouldn't be hot shots. They deserve their moment in the sun. It's a riot while it lasts - then you find other things . . .

JL
mooch

Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:49am PT
Old skool Dad's = Visionaries

New boys and girls = Conquer and claim
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 26, 2009 - 09:05am PT
Same as it ever was, Today's new school becomes tomorrow's old school. Got it's moments though. Gotta enjoy the ride!
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2009 - 10:31am PT
And some of these new school guys are making their own history, right? Not just Honnold, Sharma and Caldwell, but a lot of no names that haven't been discovered yet.

I mean, are there any FAs left out there to conquer? Seems like they've all been taken down.

The old school serves as the benevolent mentors.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:37am PT
I forgot my harness yesterday and to tie in with a bowline on a coil, does that make me old school?
hooblie

climber
"i used to care, but things have changed"
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:40am PT
any fa's left? depends, you know. ask in the caf and you might be disappointed. ask brutus of wyde, and you'd get a nice wide grin.
i'm sympathetic, the plums were picked quick. finding real gems is a high form of idolatry. get yourself ready for the match.
or prepare to taste real disappointment. and learn to love your crags in a very dear way. you didn't really want a cheapy did you?
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:53am PT
What Largo says..... I think when the guys from the seventies were coming up and changing the climbing scene, they were criticized by some of those that came before them, Largo, Bachar, Kauk, etc. were all criticized for not doing things the way they were typically done and look at what that generation did for climbing, they set the new trend. They were looked at as hot shots and cocky and in some case arrogant. This has happened every time a barrier is broken, yet climbing continues to grow and get better. Maybe acceptance is what needs to happen...accept the changes, but appreciate what has come before you, it set the ground work for what is happening or going to happen. There is a lot of history in climbing and a place for those that want to study and appreciate it, many great books and writers. The so called hot shots will have their place in it all, but like John says...some move on to other things. Find your place and go balls out for it, I think that's what most of us have done over time!
Peace
WBraun

climber
Oct 26, 2009 - 11:02am PT
WTF is the problem?

There's no problem.

Here in Yosemite all the hotshots kick ass.

and all the old guys hang out in the cafe and drool into their coffee.
Bldrjac

Ice climber
Boulder
Oct 26, 2009 - 11:03am PT
What Ron and John said.

BTW mrtropy. Forgetting your harness doesn't make you old school.
It just means you are old!! LOL! I know. It happens to me all the time.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 26, 2009 - 11:44am PT
Don't worry about which school you're in.
Just follow your heart, keep climbing and do things you believe in.
We all reach the same finish line eventually.
PhilG

Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
Oct 26, 2009 - 11:55am PT
As I sit here drooling in my coffee, it seems to me it's a matter of there are climbers with very little history and a lot of future, and there are climbers with a long history but very little future left...
I think, in general, the longer one's history, the more one respects history.
Now excuse me while I go back and drool over a Sharp End video.
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
Nah. Not expecting any cheapys. But I'd like to find a few and maybe one day put up a few myself. I'm pretty sure I am new school, but I'm not too concerned with which school new or old I'm in. School lets out eventually. Like I told a few people, I'm definitely interested in the history and respect it. But I just don't have time to learn about it now. Too much stuff going on to focus on one thing.

I just want to climb.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 26, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
As I re-read the posts, the end of Tom Patey's last song comes to mind:

Drink it up, fill your cup, have another,
And sow your wild oats while ye may.
For the toothless old tykes of tomorrow,
were the tigers of yesterday.

John
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
Glad to see my words to you inspired some thought into the subject. I hold to my recommendations.

One can't really make a significant impact on the future without having some sort of knowledge or understanding of the past.

History repeats itself on a continually growing scale. Seek out and absorb all information.

I know that you were pretty proud of yourself for climbing 5.9. Your key to higher numbers, if that is the shallow goal that you have, is to learn technique and skills that already exist.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 26, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
Hate to sound like the grumpy codger, but while I agree that the young should enjoy their youth, they should also regale in the rich history of climbing and attempt to appreciate their place in a continuum rather than ignore it.

Too little of that edification in these days of second first ascents.
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
"second first ascents"

I feel your pain Ron.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Oct 26, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
More on the topic of "are there any more FA to climb?" The most obvious answer to this has already been stated: "move on to another area."

But within the Valley most new routes have come from changing the rules. First it was bigger walls and better aid gear and technique, followed by harder free climbing in cracks, based on better training and passive protection. Then much harder steep face climbing. Now all of that is being applied to big walls are free. Parallel to all of that is speed climbing.

More generally, bouldering for fun morphed into serious training and linked up with ground up lead climbing with yo-yo'ing, top-roping, sport climbing, and projects. There is also a small corner reserved for first free solo ascents, with El Cap as the prize. In some respects the antithesis yo-yo’ing, top-toping, sport climbing, and projects. I suppose that on-sight, unroped free soloing is the ultimate point on this continuum.

For most climbers, it would be easier and more fun to get a bunch of climbers, mules, and a camp cook, and pack in a camp and deli into Southern Yosemite. There are huge amounts of unclimbed rock in Southern Yosemite and very little history to memorize.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 26, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
What is new school becomes old school and on and on and.....
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
Well, it wasn't climbing my first Valley 5.8 but leading it. And that just after 2 months of ever climbing. I can surely say I climb harder than that, but not on the sharp end, yet. I've got to get my head adjusted to the difficulty first.

Leading harder is a goal, not because of the success or to be able to brag about it, but because most of the better climbs are a lot harder than 5.8. You can't do much good climbing at 5.8 or less in the Valley or elsewhere, right? Well, you can, but it's just not as exhilarating. For me at least. I'm a thrill seeker. And I like to be challenged.

There are many things that intrigue me about climbing. The serious exposure and the adrenaline rush you get when completing an extremely difficult climb. Being able to climb the same routes some legends first put up. Finding yourself in some pretty amazing places with some pretty amazing views. The freedom and oneness with the rock and nature you can get that is lost to a lot of people.

History of climbing is definitely cool. What other sport just lets you stroll into a park and just rub elbows with legends? Not many. It's cool to say I actually met a few Stonemasters in person and chat with them on ST and then have them comment on my ridiculous posts...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 26, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
Well thats what I'm talking about Afghani.
Those punks are missing out.
Its not pain I feel Pate. Its more like wistful amusement.
It appears I have begun a whole other career in climbing under my new name, "Unknown".

LOL
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
Hey Mason, NO NEW ROUTES???????


Help yourself man! May want contact some of the old school who have been there before!



edit: And just so you remember, that first lead of yours was 5.9., right........? It was in the Valley, what was it?

You can't do much good climbing at 5.8 or less in the Valley or elsewhere, right? Well, you can, but it's just not as exhilarating. For me at least. I'm a thrill seeker. And I like to be challenged.


edit 2: C'mon down to Granite Mountain! I'll meet you there any day just to watch the fireworks! LOL

Nate D

climber
San Francisco
Oct 26, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
"For most climbers, it would be easier and more fun to get a bunch of climbers, mules, and a camp cook, and pack in a camp and deli into Southern Yosemite. There are huge amounts of unclimbed rock in Southern Yosemite and very little history to memorize."

Yes, little history to memorize, because so little of it has been unearthed! Lots of unrecorded/unreported ascents in them parts, Roger.

Afghani,
Got a hankering to do some FAs eh? Doing it old school style is one of the best ways for the new school to show respect. There is still some virgin rock out there...
drljefe

climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
Oct 26, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
Mason- what, you get skooled on a 5.8 that someone did ages ago without sticky rubber or modern gear? That'll make you think about the past, eh?
I admire your beginner enthusiasm, but dude, quit being a kook.

Like others said- it's all just a continuum.

Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
continuum.

good word jefe.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 26, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
Thief!
Ed Bannister

Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
Oct 26, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
Norm Kingsley had 200 first ascents, not routes put up, 200 peaks.
He wrote the first English language book on Ice Climbing.
nobody really cares.

The stone remains, the routes remain, there are some climbers popular, others popularized... some promoted themselves, years later threads like "Turd Skimmer" seem infantile, because true or not, they were infantile, and we are all better off treating the climbing with more respect, and allowing some decency for all those persueing the sport, in whatever form they might choose.
What sticks in the craw, is when those that have perhaps bent the rules, proceed to enforce their new version on others. silly, (not Cilly.)

Largo and that guy in the ditch have it right, I would just add that some have attempted to jump onto the enforcement podium, when there was no podium there at all, old farts and new hotshots alike.

Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
Ed, saying nobody cares is untrue.

I certainly read about Kingsley and care about his accomplishments.

People who take the time and respect the sport know the history. Literature and climbing go hand in hand.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 26, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
Being young and gung-ho and trying to carve your own direction is cool.

Trying to pretend or even worse, believe, that you are the first and biggest shizzle that ever was, is not cool.

I put forth this humble example: A kid (#1)I was working with was playing some new "metal" band on the CD player at work. Another guy (#2)who was there said, man you need to get some old sh*t in here. The other guy (#1) says Hell No, all that old sh*t is lame! I piped in with "Dude, radness wasn't invented yesterday." He spits back "Yes it was." The next day I brought in some Captain Beefheart and put it on the machine. The kid (#1) says, "That's some sick sh*t! When was that recorded?" 1969 I crooned.......He got more interested in "old" stuff after that.
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
great story, and so true. Beefheart rips!
susu

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Oct 26, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
If old school represents the lasting values of visionaries encouraging to "leave it as it was" - or close as possible for future generations and their natural capabilities - and new school means "next generation abilities," then there's a perfect union. Learning climbing history continually, not to memorize facts, but to develop and maintain good ethics, is essential to improving as a climber, to whichever school you self-identify, and so is getting information from as many sources as possible.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 26, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em, And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.

 attributed to Jonathan Swift.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
The main benefit of knowing climbing history is not so much to chronicle what routes have been done, but to learn the tricks of the trade that don't get explained very well in print and to gain knowledge without having to friggin' reinvent and experiment. So much stuff has been honed to a science, yet not passed on to the new generation successfully. It's interesting to find this out after having climbed for 13 years now and having the pleasure of friends in the Old School set.

The other weirdness that often comes with New School is the strict adherence to specialization within the sport, and we've discussed that recently. Many sport climbers of course limit themselves to that alone, but so do boulderers and trad climbers. Then those without easy access to ice and mountains just consider that something to try one day, never getting a chance to see if it floats their imagination. I can't tell you how weird it was learning that a friend of mine at the climbing gym and his buddies had taken four day road trip to a neighboring state...to boulder.

I like Werner's scoffing at reverence for the previous generation. You've earned your respect but have no use for such. Ha ha ha.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
If I can see further, it's because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.

 various sources
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
Hey- I drove all the way to Hueco to boulder, and I'd sure as sh#t fly to France just to get spanked at the Bleau if I had the change.

Road tripping for boulders doesn't sound like a waste of time to me.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
And I imagine to the boulderers, it isn't. It's all part of specialization. I just can't see ever doing it.
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
Ever drive 3000 miles for a concert? Straight through......

I've been told a few times how stupid that was!

TOTALLY worth it.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
If the history is relevant to a particular climber's efforts then it makes sense to pay attention to it. Usually this is only to understand the relevant area or style: it is just practical knowledge. I am guessing that for most climbers who are pushing the envelope in their own time, knowledge of some past climber's routes or style is a source of inspiration, but it may not be very broad. I think that for 70s Valley climbers, Sacherer offered that inspiration—none of us knew him—so it came through his routes and sometimes through Bridwell's stories. But at the time, Sacherer was just one of several great climbers. Nowadays, his singular influence in later climbing seems clearer cut.

There is another element of a relationship to history that is based on just personal interest. There are important moments in the history of Yosemite climbing in the early 20th Century that are not relevant to anyone's current climbing. Sometimes the stories are interesting and have been told in interesting ways; sometimes the history is boring. Filling in all the blanks to understand who did what bushwhack, when, is a matter of personal choice. If the historical climber is still around, there are social issues in the degree to which a modern climber expresses interest. At the Nose50 reunion last year, none of the current hotshots showed up except for Hans and Yugi, which seemed appropriate given the specific connection to the Nose. All the older climbers were surprised, flattered, and happy that anyone cared about what they did 50 years ago. But mostly they were happy to see old friends. They thought it was pretty cool to meet so many name brand climbers from later generations. I am sure that it didn’t occur to any of them that there were many hotshots who could have come but chose not to.

I am also pretty sure that most famous older climbers do not like to be treated with any reverence. There is a fine line of being welcomed and appreciated in someway, but every over-the-hill climber I know, no matter how great in their day, recognizes that the world has moved on. Part of the reason this is so obvious is how strange it sounds if any older climber gets on a high horse about something that they did in the past. It if is not lathered in self deprecating humor, it sucks the air out of the room.

I would say that a new climber will probably learn more about the issues of style and identifying goals worth striving for by getting an understanding of the climbing history. Most everyone would be impressed by the effort. It is also an easy way to be a beginner while engaging old hands. But if you met Caldwell and wanted to talk about climbing El Cap all-free, any reference to history would have to be pretty recent to be interesting.

And I flew to California on a long weekend to hang out with Peter Haan and see Wayne Merry. Didn't climb a thing. I did see for the first time in my life pad people walking off into the woods behind Camp 4.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 26, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
Pate -

No.

It was.


How did Jerry play that night?
locker

Social climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Oct 26, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
"Here in Yosemite all the hotshots kick ass...
...
and all the old guys hang out in the cafe and drool into their coffee."
...


LOL!!!...

Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 26, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
I found I enjoyed the history after I had climbed for a few years. I guess I understood the perspective better. Plus it was cool to read about the FA's of climbs you had done (especially on older routes).

Mason, just climb! Enjoy it. Yes, climbing harder does open up more possibilities but there a lot of 5.8's and less that are stellar climbs. Just because it says 5.10d (or whatever) it's not an automatic classic.

Homework assignment for next summer. Get Croft's "The Good, the Great, and the Awesome". Pick out a couple of the 5.6 - 5.8 climbs (there are quite a few in the book) and gives a full TR (with pics) when done.

Keep the fire and enthusiasm. Remember, all of us were new to this at some point just like you. Take care.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Oct 26, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
Every generation of climbers adds to the history of climbing. The newest generation is blessed with the stories of all those who came before.

For me, climbing is always more fulfilling when I'm moved by the history of an area.
The Wolf

Trad climber
Martinez, CA
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
It's the natural evolution of things. Do young film directors know the work of Sam Fuller or Anthony Mann? Do young actors know Montgomery Clift? Do young basketball hot shots know Pistol Pete Maravich? In the end it all doesn't really matter, go climbing, have fun and do what you want. I love the history of it all and am happy to share what I know, but you can lead a horse to water........
MisterE

Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
There is always room in the world for the intrepid.

I would venture that the new school climbers face the larger challenge in this arena - all the plums have been picked. And still the new stuff is sent...the impossible becomes within reach, the spiral spins, ever upward - even amid warriors of entropy - the rise continues..
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
old school



http://boulderbatholith.blogspot.com/2009/10/climbing-butte-montana-1902.html
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 12:15am PT
Yea, it might be nice one day to find some virgin rock and do something original. Once again, not to brag or feel pride or make history, but you know...just to know this rock's never been sent. It's virgin and I got to break 'er in ;)

Pate, I have no idea which route you're talking about but my first route in the Valley was Oak Tree Flake LOL. I did Jam Crack which was 5.9 but I only did the first pitch which is 5.7. Bishop's Terrace is 5.8 as far as I know. I tell you what, I'll go lead a 5.9/10 and then let you know afterward. And before I go climbing 10-20 pitch high sierra or rocky mountain or whatever else that's never been sent, I'd better break in my one partner first. She's a bit timid, so it may take a while. And where's Granite mountain, in CO? Am I missing something?

Southern Yosemite sounds fun, I'm sure I'll get out there eventually. But by then I'm sure a lot of routes will have been put up.

I think every person enjoys a certain amount of appreciate for history of anything. If you don't then you don't understand your roots, whatever they are. You're also going to be a bit ignorant when it comes to understanding why things are the way they are. Best part is being able to hear about it from the legends. Jay's probably right that I'm misconceiving this rift, maybe it's just from a few of the badboy climber vids I've watched. Or maybe it's my limited experience in climbing.

I am just trying to stir some conversation. It's interesting to hear others points of view and get yelled at by Werner (sorry I cut you off in my car back at Facelift in September, man! It was the driver's fault in front of me.)

But driving 3000 miles for a concert, Pate? The Dead? That must have been some good acid to go straight through!

A lot of good stories from everyone, by the way. Does it get old repeating these stories or does it get old being asked questions like these from quasi-noobs? I'd hate to talk too much about climbing, history of climbing or the climbers themselves if it does get overplayed at times. God forbid, though.
Ray Olson

Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
Oct 27, 2009 - 12:40am PT
coffee cup drool, man that's nothin...just wait.
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Oct 27, 2009 - 12:56am PT
I think the thing is more about trad or sport. From ground up. Or from the top down. More than new school or old school. It's about Style more than age. this is nothing new just part of the ride.In the end it’s about what you want to do, and how you want to do it.


Dogtown.
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 01:29am PT
Lol!! I was getting to it.

It depends on whether she's a moped or a ducati, er I meant a 5.6 or a 5.15XR.

Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Oct 27, 2009 - 01:37am PT
You could climb something that might not be there the week after
like this old school knucklehead. That way you don't have to
worry about ratings.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 27, 2009 - 01:51am PT
Largo, Ron, and Werner called it.

The pioneers of Old were the Young arrogant hotshots of their time. That's the way it rolls when you're that good.

The generation gap is less than it ever was and Old skool is getting far more respect now that Old School got when the stonemasters ruled the rock.

This dissing of the youth is the classic sign of middle age (and I'm that old too) Sorry to break it to you!

You know, we used to walk 5 miles to school in the snow but the kids now get on a bus kinda talk.

You know...All kids think about these days is Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll!! What ever happened to reverence for Wine, Women and Song.

Same as it ever was, meet the new punks, same as the old punks

;-)

Karl
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 27, 2009 - 02:03am PT
When your achievement has no sentiment, it's current. Age is secondary.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Oct 27, 2009 - 10:14am PT
Climbing ice without tools - that's pretty rad. Must be hard to hold onto the Scotch bottle afterwards.

From what I've read here, someone should go get the second first ascent of Solid Gold in JT.
hooblie

climber
"i used to care, but things have changed"
Oct 27, 2009 - 10:16am PT
the seed of this particular thread was a suggestion that some history be read, after a bit of spray in the presence of the establishment. sails were trimmed and a serious approach to the topic got framed as if a dicotomy was inherent. my current thinking is that the old vs. new was an accidental red herring. the bait should have been declined. the tipping point was the quite defendable case for continuity.

this business of knowing your context by opening your eyes to history is an old saw, and it has two handles. it can be pushed or pulled, and i think it cuts better from the other side. the flipside of contextual awareness, might be, ...abject oblivion. ...hey, avoid it.

the noob like exuberence, the crowing about fast results and great expectations, lacking in the protocol of cool, has many a precedent i'm sure. continuity after all. it's the scope of our participation, given the effect of the web that is novel. kudos to OP for fortitude.

what if the suggestion had been whispered in the ear of the plebe, not so much that it's important to know history and thereby gain respect across the divide, but rather it's corollary. that it lacks cool to operate in such a vacuum, where personal centrism fills the room, and the effect is exclusionary, can be seen as disrespectful in the presence of your antecedents. i'd venture most of whom
enjoyed this right of passage to the amusement of just a few close friends.

the joke comes to mind about an old bull on a hill, and a brand new bull hopping up and down, breathlessly pointing out the cows
down in the meadow. young bull, uncontainable, blurts out "let's run down there and exploit one." old bull finishes chewing his cud, slowly turns and grumbles "let's walk down there and exploit them all." ~~~ if ya squint, you can just make out the continuity
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 27, 2009 - 11:04am PT
Sorry hooblie, but I'm almost positive the young bull says:

"Lets run down and F*#K one of those cows."
Chim-Chim

climber
Oct 27, 2009 - 11:59am PT
Well the new school obviously has pushed the difficulty recently is without argument. However are the gains in difficulty due to better climbing skill or is it also a result of better technology? The only way to really know is to hand the youngsters and old rack deviod of camming units, give them some E.B's and see what they can do. If the meet or surpass the climbing successes of the "old School" then maybe what they are doing to raise the standards is valid...if they can't then they aren't really much better climbers than those from the "old school", they have simply benefitted from the technology that offers a margin of safety in previously scetchy situations, and have foot wear that has gecko-like sticking abilities. However if the new school can't respect the efforts of the past then their just arrogant punks, Karma's a real biotch, and if pure difficult is what the new generation is after, rather than style, and asctetics, then the art will be lost to competition and will be reduced to a numbers game. Just sayin' Chim
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
I like what Chim said. It's not just about difficulty. It's about style and aesthetics. You can climb some hard ass routes and say you are a badass climber but if you can't do it with some style and aesthetic beauty then you're missing the point of climbing.

And I guess what all the old timers are trying to tell me is that...it's a continual continuum. What's new, becomes old and what's old becomes older. I guess I can kind of relate that to my taste in music these days.

Like seriously, wtf is up with Punk Emo music?? Why are all these kids running around looking like goth kids merged with psycho ward patients? I swear, if I ever saw an Emo rock climber, I'd quit the sport and probably kick the kid's ass.

Anyway, I digress. Climbing is really an art form. And in that art is a lot of history. I think the message is sort of, "It's cool to know, but not required. As long as you give the rock and the environment some respect and love to climb, you should be A-Ok."

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Oct 27, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

 Georges Santayana
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 27, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
Mighty, I can't remember most of '90-'91-'92.

Does that mean I get to go on Dead Tour again? Sweet!
x15x15

climber
Oct 27, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
I just want to climb.


Yup, that pretty much sums it up. and if you are still doing it in five years... look out. it grabs you by the gonads, and sometimes never lets go!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 27, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
Shortcomings? You are the one who wants to add Futuristic Little Utility Bolts (that's FLUB's) whenever you start getting jumpy! And besides you are an old crusty POS yourself aren't ya?!?

Edit- so it is a wrinkle density affair then? The toothless old tykes of tomorrow were the tigers of yesterday, as Patey once said.
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
Nice send!

That's skill, there. I have to admit I wish I could do that. I need to start bouldering and hard climbing

Stuff like this inspires me to start

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlcQ3mxlNfs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McHosr_98r0

So, I guess this is where I sort of see the divide between old school, like Warren Harding old and new school Sonnie Trotter and Chris Sharma.

The Stonemasters really changed the sport, I think. They just wanted to climb. At least that's what I think IMHO.

Edit: By changed the sport, I mean they took it to the next level. Not necessarily discounting what the founders did because they're responsible for rock climbing as a whole. I learned that after watching the movie First Ascent.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 27, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
Give them some EBs and see what they climb?



They should BE so lucky!

I say give 'em kronhaufers.
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Oct 27, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
uhm... there's no distinction... "they" are all climbers.... does it matter when they climbed?


not sure..

but cheers anyway
Slater

Trad climber
Central Coast
Oct 27, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/995262/Old_Guys_Rule_-_Englekirk_still_ticking_big_13s

Old School and still kicking butt
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 27, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
Warren Harding had chunks of guys like Trotter and Sharma in his morning shits.


edit: And Afgani, I liked you better as mason. Now I feel like you're gunna suicide bomb the taco.
426

climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Oct 27, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
"I swear, if I ever saw an Emo rock climber, I'd quit the sport and probably kick the kid's ass."

Heh. Some of those emo kids climb pretty damn hard...You may want to take the Legrand advice of "if you aren't climbing, learn by watching" ..or you could quit...

Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Oct 27, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
When are you old people going to stop blaming your short comings on the frickin EB's?
EB's? Heck, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I got some Robbins boots!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Oct 27, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
To BE, or not to EB. That is the question.
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Oct 27, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
And those E Germans were climbing barefoot before he was born.
gonzo chemist

climber
the Orange Curtain
Oct 27, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
if pure difficult is what the new generation is after, rather than style, and asctetics, then the art will be lost to competition and will be reduced to a numbers game.



that's poignant. See for example: www.8a.nu


that website makes me queasy....

-Nick
426

climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Oct 27, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
Pbbbbbbt:What is art:||

Guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Mebbe there's an art to climbing granite. There's even some slab paddlin in this clip...then it get haaarth...you can't do it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlcQ3mxlNfs&feature=fvw

Freeing old aid routes...art? I keep trying to Hooblie up but it keeps getting dichomatic_-the kids are alright (awe, right("?"{))

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 27, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
The competition aspect of climbing has already lost a lot of steam. A good number of high end sport climbers are discovering trad and a few of them will filter through to alpinism. I have been a climber and an observer of climbing for 5 decades. Sure, there are differences, but all in all I think that the new school climbers are great representatives of climbing a decade or two removed from becoming old school climbers. Sonny Trotter, Chris Sharma, Brittany Griffith, Tommy Caldwell, Colin Haley et al are the current versions of Steve Wunch, Largo, Ron Kauk, Jeff & George Lowe and on and on. Climbing changes, as does everything, but I think the similarities between the generations far outweigh the differences.
Michael Kennedy

Social climber
Carbondale, Colorado
Oct 27, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
What Jim says.

Energy, imagination, purpose, skill, drive - the New School has it all, just like the has-beens did in their time. No need to diminish their efforts.

But we can remind them, once in a while, of the qualities that remain timeless: a sense of stepping into the unknown, of pushing beyond what you think you are capable of. That may be what what binds us together as climbers, whether we're doing a 5-move boulder problem or a 10-day alpine climb.
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
Michael Kennedy -- "....the qualities that remain timeless:"

See ... even Michael knows, there is permanence .....

MH2

climber
Oct 27, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
Hmmm.

This was pretty easy to answer when it was just Appies vs. Vulgarians.

My perspective has been knocked awry by Devon Gerrard, Sean McColl, Will Stanhope, and Jason Kruk, all kids who went into the gym and came out to conquer the world, literally in Sean's case, and significant aspects of it in the others' cases.

I get queasy when those kids try to show deference.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 27, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
Am I the only one who is amazed by what the "kids" are doing but often appalled when I talk with them and find out how ignorant they can be toward the rich history of our pursuit?
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
What is the pursuit?
MH2

climber
Oct 27, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
Am I the only one who is amazed by what the "kids" are doing but often appalled when I talk with them and find out how ignorant they can be toward the rich history of our pursuit?

It varies kid by kid. Some are too active and too tightly focussed on climbing to have time or interest beyond the next climb. Others, like one I know who works at MEC, seem to know everyone and everything. I am amazed by the variation in, let's call it maturity, of young 'uns.



What is the pursuit?

I know! I know! Chasing women.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 28, 2009 - 01:54am PT
"Well the new school obviously has pushed the difficulty recently is without argument. However are the gains in difficulty due to better climbing skill or is it also a result of better technology? The only way to really know is to hand the youngsters and old rack deviod of camming units, give them some E.B's and see what they can do. If the meet or surpass the climbing successes of the "old School" then maybe what they are doing to raise the standards is valid...if they can't then they aren't really much better climbers than those from the "old school", they have simply benefitted from the technology that offers a margin of safety in previously scetchy situations, and have foot wear that has gecko-like sticking abilities."

I'd say Alex soloing Half dome and moonlight buttress answers this question well enough

peace

karl
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 02:40am PT
P-diddy,

Sharma, Trotter, Potter and any of the current players are pretty good from what I can gather. No disrespect here, but weren't some of Harding's climbing partners critical about his over bolting? Not trying to say anything bad about the guy, just sayin'. It's all part of the continuum apparently, but it's all part of the game too. Every aspect is analyzed and criticized by one school or the other.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=995687&tn=13

When I thought of climbing back in the day day the use of aid and ascenders and ladders never even came to mind until I started understanding that was a part of climbing big walls. I became slightly jaded when I learned that the Nose couldn't be climbed free. Then I heard of Lynn Hill. It all came back.

Anyway, didn't the Irish invent car bombs, McPatey?
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Oct 28, 2009 - 07:52am PT
I still think that using chalk is cheating.

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 28, 2009 - 08:43am PT
426, do you know what the music is in that clip? Star people-esque
Chim-Chim

climber
Oct 28, 2009 - 11:19am PT
I started climbing in 1990 or so when the old dudes called sunnyside camp four, although the sign at the registration booth said sunntside. I'm part of generation x not new school but not old school either. Luckily I've been priveleded to see a rapid progression in difficulty, not necessarrily in myself but in the climbing population at large. Sport routes brought rapid increases in difficullty, now the kids are killing it. Each generation of climbers will hopefully raise the bar and climb what was impossible. there is no doubt that this new generation is setting new free climbing standards on large rock formations around the world, but would they be doing this without the brave exploration of the pioneers that came before them? Being a little older now, and looking back at the climbers who set the standards for my generation I have nothing but respect for their pioneering efforts. Sure the new school is bad ass, but wasn't the old school the same. They had to figure the logistics of staying alive on the go. No G.P.S., accurate weather reports, S.A.R., or sponsers. Take a look at Fred Becky. He did all his routes with no financial assistancs, no satalite maps, and no face book to tell everybody what he was up to. I don't want to question anyone's motivation to climb or to excel in any pursuit., but the old guys cranked in their way. Maybe they couldn't climb 5.13, but take consider Henry Barber barefoot on Waverly Wafer, using hexes and wires for protection. That's old school. Chim
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Oct 28, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
That's pretty funny, Wes....
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
Gonz,

That's a Euro website right? Climbing's a lot more popular out there isn't it? In Europe I mean.

Bachar, Kauk et al were super heroes out there, weren't they? It's just odd that rock climbing out here still hasn't become as popular and mainstream as it is and was in Europe.

Maybe that's a good thing, though.
Tami

Social climber
Vancouver, Canada
Oct 28, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
There's climbing outside of America ? Huh ?


Old skool, new skool; they're all runnin' away from responsibilities. Should be gettin' an Edyoocashin and buyin' a home and breeding and stuff.


Fred Beckey is the original trustafarian :-D


I'll go sit in the car.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 28, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
Why does it hafta be old vs. new? Old school and New school and No Damn School Atoll.

edit- Aren't we all just maladjusted anyway?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 28, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
Yeah Wes, you ungrateful pissant.

People like Bill Putnam and his fellow soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division some of whom gave their lives so that you could enjoy the freedom and standard of living that you have today.
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 28, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
European's don't need Bachar and Kauk. Read up a little, they have more than a few of their own.

Once again Afgani, you're asking questions and making statements that you could answer for yourself by taking time to immerse yourself in the sport.
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
Pate, I'll pass on the reading about euro climbers. I think I'll just go out and make some history on my own. I'll let you tell me all about the history of European climbing. Brb while I grab some popcorn and chips.

Edit: You're right, though. I'm not feelin' the handle. Great. Another name change.


Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Oct 28, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
Afghani
I think I'll just go out and make some history on my own.

ANAM?
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
Wes,

I think I read about him a bit in a book I bought a long time ago about "Performance Rock Climbing."

Or maybe that was Dale Goddard.

ANAM? Huh?
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Oct 28, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
Keep the hump alive Wes..... you got a thumby yet?
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
Ah, ok I see re: Russ. I am still a noob.

Wolfgang Gullich, I've seen a lot of his videos on Youtube. Very impressive climber. Climbing is definitely a sport to watch and gain enjoyment.

While I do enjoy reading about it, it's much more exciting to watch and do. Moon's video is pretty good, I have to admit.
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 28, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
"I've never bragged about climbing anything but I think having only climbed 3 months and already leading at that level (5.8) is pretty f*#kin good so I don't care...."

huh?
Pate

Mountain climber
The Ocean State
Oct 28, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
I once read that you are the best climber you know wes.
Anastasia

Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
Oct 28, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
There is a new group around here, I find them to be a new species of climbers that is very strange. They look nice, smell good and a few of them even have manicures. They do climb but something about them beyond that isn't like other climbers. They make this strange clicking noises.

I think if they were being mentored by the older generation they might lose some of that annoying clicking. Beyond that there really is no difference. At least nothing significant...

We each have inherited a nature that makes us individuals. Some will respect the past and it's ethics. Some won't... This is how it's always been and always will be.
------------------

I personally love my old group from Stoney Point. They have always been there through all my life's passages.

Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
McP-diddy - you're right. That probably is bragging. But come to think of it, climbing free on some crazy exposed rock up 200' at 5.8 after only 3 months of having no clue what trad or sport was, really IS pretty effin' good!

I don't think I'm new school or old school, kind of in between. But as the old school have said so far on this thread, it's ok to brag and whoop and act like a hotshot because that's what hotshots do and did. Not saying I'm a hotshot or anything.

Anastasia, what is this clicking noise new school makes? I'm intrigued.



Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 28, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
Breaking News- An egotistical n00b has apparently lifted off and is now soaring at 15,000 feet attached to his incredibly inflated ego.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Oct 28, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
But come to think of it, climbing free on some crazy exposed rock up 200' at 5.8 after only 3 months of having no clue what trad or sport was, really IS pretty effin' good!

Nope.... it is really not that good. Let some air out sonny....
Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 28, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
I don't have time to read about the history and I'm not necessarily trying to make friends with these legends.

He doesn't care about you Russ.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Oct 28, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
He is in good company.....

I thought kids today came out of the gym after an On_The_Wall birthday party leading 5.11?

Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
My last post was a joke. P's just pissed because I don't want to listen to him so he's posting stuff from my response to his obsessive email diatribe about how I should kiss the king's ass.

Pate, while you're busy reading about history, I'm gonna be climbing so catch me up when I get back mmmkay?

Thanks, dude.

Russ, I do like you. Don't listen to him.


Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 28, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
mason, let us know when you epic on some 5.9 and you're lust for climbing becomes history.

edit- wes, are you putting a nail in the WOS coffin? lol
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
Yikes. Pate must be having a bad day. Does Pate need a hug from the king?

Wes - I read about the rope shitting incident but forgot who it was. That's good history.
Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 28, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
I likes me some easy targets.

Actually, I'll stop messin' around.... you people hold grudges for like 2000 years.

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 28, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
anastasia must be talking about the noise tweekers make sometimes when their spun!!!
dougs510

Social climber
down south
Oct 29, 2009 - 04:01am PT
think.... beautiful rock formations. the smell of the rock. the birds that fly past your ledge 3 pitches up. the clean air, the trees and the whisper of the wind through the pines. then, you realize why you climb. no old school/new school. just joy! friendships bound by the love of the climb, the relationships that will last a lifetime.

Time passes, we all age, and, if we're lucky enough, we can experience the sheer joy of friendships, vertical existence, and live through some sketchy situations (personally) I've found myself in.

the best years of my life were climbing with friends from all over the world. we are a tight knit community. Join in and love it for what it is.
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
LOL!!!?!?!?111666!!! Yea, you should probably stop trying to cram your beliefs down other people's throats. I don't want to learn about European climbing history, McDuff!

And at least the Afghanis never settle or make peace treaties with the enemy and sell out.

If you'd like a history lesson about California and the United States just let me know, though. We practice freedom of ideals and speech here.

Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
Hey Afgani, take that sh#t somewhere else. Afganis are freakish cowards.

Maybe instead of 2000 year old grudges they should shut up and walk away. Seems like you are carrying on the centuries old traditionn of digging deep holes for yourselves.
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
Dude, you're psycho and seriously in need of some anger management. If you want to see if I'm a coward: Bay Area. Whenever man.

Stop emailing people and telling them to kiss people's asses. Oh and stop being such a f*#kin' baby.

--------------------------------------------------------

Mason-
You need to check out who jstan is, his name is John Stannard. Google him and read about him, and get some real climbing books and study them. Then pay some hommage cuz yer dissin the king.

John is famous, a god. John is a prolific rock climber, he is an older guy, in his 60's. He is responsible for literally hundreds and hundreds of routes from the Gunks, Boulder, AZ and Yosemite. There is no place in this country that he did not make a significant impact on the climbing scene. He and a few others are responsible for establishing the grades 5.10 and 5.11. And that is old school 10 and 11, very very difficult climbing.

In short , John Stannard is a legend, a hero and a living link to the past.

He has lived in the J Tree area for a long time now, and has hundreds of first ascents there.

Dude, this guy has climbed w/ Bridwell, Long, Chouinard, Robbins and many many others. HE has hundreds of first ascents in J Tree and continues to put them up at high grades by the dozen.

It sounds to me like you need to concentrate on coming up the right way. You need to read about how the grades got established, how the gear and ethics got developed, and who did it. Climbing is about history and tradition.

A word of warning, most of the guys on ST are legends. The sh#t they have accomplished is super human. Have some respect. These guys climbed had in a time before the softness of the modern climbing world.

Your comments are really rude towards John. And Mister E and many others, disrespectful. SUre, hold your own, but you are coming across as a moron dude. Who gives a damn if you did your first 5.8 lead t his summer in Yose. One of these dudes probably put it up. So you need to tone it down a little and learn b listening and watching.

Not to be mean, but you are a nobody, and these guys, especially Stannard, are the reason climbing exists. You clearly have no knowledge of the history of American climbing. You don't seem to understand- THAT is what you need to know at this point, not trying to get some tips from the top. You want to converse with these guys? Be respectful, humble and get some more knwledge about the roots of our sport.

Marc Peter
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
Afghani,
That email isn't that far off. Sure, Pate writes strong, but he's coming from a place where he knows where he is and who he's conversing with and getting to know.

There is nothing wrong with being new, but I strive to be respectful of the giants in the room no matter where I am or what field they're in. You would have to be around a long time and get a lot better to talk much sh*t that had any meaning to some of the folks around here.

Again, it's ok to be new, but all due respect, try not to be a punk.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
I don't know about the Josh part, and I thought he lived in Santa Barbara. A little brash, but some good points which I'm sure you absorbed with your massive 5.8 wisdom. (my daughter climbed 5.8 when she was in her single digits)
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
"(my daughter climbed 5.8 when she was in her single digits)"
Ha! My kids too.

I had a girlfriend who was leading 5.10 trad after about 4 months of climbing.....
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 29, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
I knew a guy whose only climb was a free solo of the nakededge, naked, of course....






Okay, I made that up.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 29, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
They make cases that big?
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
Rock climbers here are some of the biggest haters I've met. Instead of encouraging climbers, they cut them down.

That's character, I tell you.

And there's no real sh#t talking lol. I swear, this is old news. There was a joke thread about fat chicks and then JStan chastised me about it. I didn't know who he was and called him an old guy. Then Skipt broke in about Jstan's accomplishments and said I hadn't done sh#t.

There was no initial sh#t talking about climbing. It was about a fat chick thread. Seriously, know your history!

Anyway, I don't dis' the giants. And some of us didn't have the luxury of rock in the midwest plains while in our single digits. I'm into this weekend climbing thing now for four months.

Give it time.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 29, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
I know this chick, she was leading .11c, at the creek in her first six months... Okay, she's a wackjob, but still.....
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
And smartasses. The whole bunch of ya.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Oct 29, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
Hang in there man.
I was warned when I first got here about having thick skin.
It was very good advice.

I've done some really hard pitches in my day, and I've climbed many hard big walls, but around here, I'm no bigshot.

There are older guys here who are more bad#ss than I ever was.
There are a lot of younger guys here who are more bad#ss than I ever was.
I'm just some old dude in the middle somewhere.

Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
Survival, I can handle any bs thrown at me. But when it gets racist to where Pate took it, I tend to get a little edgy. Whatever, though.

Wes - you must have dated this chick? Haha.
drljefe

climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
Oct 29, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
Hey Mason-
Here's a fun and easy way to gain a cursory knowledge of American free climbing, and of the many accomplishments of some of the climbers that contribute to this site.

The book is called
WIZARDS OF ROCK-
A HISTORY OF FREE CLIMBING IN THE US

I highly recommend this book.
It's kind of a "cliff notes" of the progression of climbing.
I don't think you'll find that it's all crusty boring old crap.
You'll read about sick chit that has gone down year by year, and it really puts "hard" climbing in perspective.

Best of all, it was authored by someone on this site!!!-
he goes by PATRICK OLIVER (FYI-he's a legend).
There is a thread concerning him and his health right now-
(Disintigrating rock).

He's cool, and if you send him an email and a check, he'll send you an autographed copy.

Getting humbled is part of climbing, whether it's by the rock itself, or by rock climbers. Keep climbing. Have fun. Be safe. Don't be a kook.


Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 29, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
Stirrin' The Pot. Stirrin' The Pot. Ok, It's boiling!

Ok, back to work.
Blinky

Trad climber
Hillsborough, NC
Oct 29, 2009 - 03:47pm PT

"One of the things you get out of climbing, when you burn someone off, it's really good." -Moffatt

I think the more important quote in that clip is, "You've really not got to get bored with climbing..."

I get burned off all the time by young kids... REALLY young kids, it's amusing, I love it. I burned of a few old men years ago, a lot of younger ones too. It's funny how when you get older, it becomes so insignificant. Face it, the stakes are just, really, really low. We'll all be burned off sooner or later.

It's the same everywhere, new skool wouldn't exist without old skool. Nobody has to pay homage or respect their elders... but doing so is the purest style there is.

To me, climbing isn't about being great or winning anything...

...climbing is about style and the elegance of the line. Anything worth doing well is about the line. It's personal.
Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 29, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
wes- they may be tough and defend their rubble piles well enough, but here's my outlook on their history and what it does for the world..

http://www.mco.com/valor/784658.html

This is one of the guys I grew up with, or was. Pretty much sucks and puts it in my front yard a little.

Mason, you call CLIMBERS haters?

Ok, politics are done for me. I'm gong to enjoy my running water, electricity and sanitation.



I appreciate that you're pointing out what a dick I'm being but none of my posts today or any other day save for the brief parrys against skipt, and MrE were supposed to be offensive.

Today especially, I was just making conversation and having a laugh about the ironies of meeting people on this forum.

I also appreciate that you are sort of the diplomat on the board and so thank you. But I just want to climb. I don't have time to read about the history and I'm not necessarily trying to make friends with these legends. Not that there is anything wrong with that I'm just sayin, I am interested in climbing and that's all...for now. If I make friends with the greats and learn a thing or two about the roots, awesome. But that's all I have time for right now.

I'm going to forget that you told me I sound like a moron because I can tell you're very passionate about your email.

I've never bragged about climbing anything but I think having only climbed 3 months and already leading at that level is pretty f*#kin good so I don't care if it's an easy route for the legends, it was a boundry challenge I passed. I haven't even done sport climbing. Cut me some slack.

I don't know if this email was sent to me before you read John's response but I think we're clear on the story so it's moot.

Btw, there are a lot of climbers interested in climbing with me and who climb with me on a regular basis. I'm really not the bad guy.

Happy one day closer to the weekend and happy going to vegas tomorrow for me.

Edris


LOL! Now I'm out!
Pate

Trad climber
?
Oct 29, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
wes Hah! you're totally right. Hey, I'm the biggest idiot I know. I'm pretty much an opinionated dick (that's what she said at least) in real life too, no hiding here.

But still, here's my version of current events since I started with this bs and Dave would want me to:
-Stability in the region.
-Who was (is?) hiding on the border of Afg/Pak.?
-What did he do? (to us)
-Where did they train?
-Why were we (was he) there? (when my bro Dave died at least) Remember, this isn't a commuter plane that went down in the Hudson. Did the guys who went down the other day go out for a sightseeing tour? Why were they there?
-What continues to happen (yesterday?) and isn't going to stop?
-Do you really feel safe? (I mean not personally, but in the grand scheme of world stability if something isn't done?)
-If something isn't done (I don't have a clue what) what will happen?

Anyhow, back to new/old school- I won't delete a post, like mason (afgani) deleted every single one of his disrespectful, ignorant posts in a previous thread, then came in at the end and agreed to everything that people had been saying, the things that he spent 3 days denying in a smug, entitled and condescending way. I think it was 10 posts if I'm correct, poof-just like that. So I guess I'm gunning for him a little. Watch these ones disappear late at night like the others.

I love the 'tardnet! Nothing like the careful cultivation of online personas!

How I digress. Anyhow, new school should come in and take the information that is available to them and expound upon it while being respectful of the past and realize their places in the continuum of life, work, sport whatever. Instead of:

I'm going to go onsight some radical trad 5.8 because I am f*#king awesome. I'm not tooting my own horn or anything............but I am.

What? What did you say? It was first climbed by a drunk guy in 1965 in hiking boots and protected by two pins hammered out from an old VW bug fender in a garage with a blowtorch?

F*#k those guys, I'm renaming the climb and writing a brand new topo. And now it's 5.10b. I'm still totally awesome. Bow down.

(this is getting good now. if you guys think it gets hot here you should come on over to my chess site.)

426

climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Oct 29, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
Afg:

"Rock climbers here are some of the biggest haters I've met. Instead of encouraging climbers, they cut them down."..."Why are all these kids running around looking like goth kids merged with psycho ward patients? I swear, if I ever saw an Emo rock climber, I'd quit the sport and probably kick the kid's ass."

:?


While there are certainly veins of competition in venues on crimbing, *haha, Moffatt bump--classy post Blinky* most all of my experiences have been positive. Jaybro taught me the shin/hand stack™, CMac taught me how to move in aiders™ , Hootervillian taught me how to roll aretes one handed™ , Minerals taught me how to tear up to 11k on 2 wheels™ , Dano taught me how to pitch™ (still working on it) , Klaus taught me how to clean my paws™ ...


Not that I can or do use any of the above on the regular, i could go on and on, but I'll just reiterate what Legrand taught me, "learn by watching...™ " Course he's Euro, YMMV.

Jaybro, I gotta pull out dosage 4 for the music link. Might be at work, will drop you a line...
Afghani

Trad climber
Yay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2009 - 12:16am PT
Uh - I think most people can agree your email was spastic and a little on the psychotic, stalker side. Mine. Yea...anyway. LOL??

I echo Wes's comments. You are an idiot. At least you have the decency to admit to your idiocy, I'll give ya that much. And here I thought you were actually a halfway intelligent guy. Like I said about first impressions.

Secondly, what exactly pissed you off in this thread? I am just curious. Because I didn't say a whole lot of anything that was supposed to be taken seriously. I really don't give a sh#t, though. My curiosity is just peaked. Are you still pissed about that whole posting, give homage to the king debacle a month ago? Did you say grudge? Oh wait, you said something about ignorance, too. Was that when you were talking about how cowardly and freakish Afghan suicide bombers are? Tangent: How can one be a coward and a suicide bomber at the same time? Anyway...

Yea, I'm calling climbers haters. I know, because I am one, too.

Jefe, ok man, I'll stop bein' a kook and check out that book one of these days. Just as long as you promise to never post another pic of you and your dog again.

That's a joke, dude. Don't go all Patespastic on me. Forgive me if I can't be thankful for you friendly post just at this moment in time. You were nice and I acknowledge that. Maybe one day I can belay you to repay the kindness. Seriously, you're right. Everything in your post is genuine and I don't disagree with it.

In closing. Pate must remember that the Afghans are supported by the US and its armed forces. They are friendly towards Afghanistan and its plight. They are not friendly towards Taliban, who just happen to NOT be Afghan. They came from Pakistan. So, when you spout racism and ignorance towards Afghanis, you are actually being anti-American. Just throwin' that out there.

I have realized that I am no good at politics so I'm just gonna say, "screw it."





Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
Oct 30, 2009 - 12:19am PT
Jefe rules.
That BoyoBoy has a good 'tude. I like it.
Skully(still in school)
drljefe

climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
Nov 2, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
"Jefe, ok man, I'll stop bein' a kook and check out that book one of these days. Just as long as you promise to never post another pic of you and your dog again.

That's a joke, dude. Don't go all Patespastic on me. Forgive me if I can't be thankful for you friendly post just at this moment in time. You were nice and I acknowledge that. Maybe one day I can belay you to repay the kindness. Seriously, you're right. Everything in your post is genuine and I don't disagree with it."

Aww shukks, mason.

1. Don't talk about my dog. Ever.
2. "Patespasitic", thanks. I'll use that.
3. "Maybe one day I can belay you to repay the kindness."
Ummm, hook up a "chunk of sheesh" from your homeland
and maybe I'll "let" you belay me, with a grigri.
I gotta warn you, though, I've been climbing for 22 years
and might flail on 5.8. So maybe you should lead.

atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Nov 2, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
I thought old school meant you were busy telling others how, why or when you climbed, and new school meant you were too busy climbing to care about anything but climbing.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 2, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
Old school and new school are the same it just depends where you are on the continuum. If you've reached old school and you're still climbing, you're probably getting it on because you know your days are numbered. Off to Sardinia tomorrow for three weeks under, I hope, a glorious Mediterranean sun!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 2, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
Well post to us on the contentuum.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 2, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
Atch, is that why the new schoolers have to spend so much time spraying the world about what they are doing, instead of just climbing?
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
Did you see my blog, bro?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
bro! Where I come from that salutation is an insult.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
sorry dood.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
Atch, you have all of that new school lingo down, I'll bet you're a young fella full of vim and vinegar.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
Christ, Wes! What are these young fellas going to think of next? I'll bet you wont vote him into the club just because of that one manuever.
Tami

Social climber
Vancouver, Canada
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
Perhaps old school could be retooled to be defined as a climber missing body parts as a result of their climbing ( e.g. being a tool with tools duzzin't count ) ( Brain cells not included )

New Skool are those who will SOME DAY lose body parts.


The rest of us are wannabees.

BIG GRIN.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
Vim and vinegar? Is that an old school saying?

I am young compared to you Donini. But we all are.
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
Wes, you sure it was the runner, and not because he didn't stick clip it?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 2, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
Yes Atch, it is rather old school. Young is how you feel....wait a minute, I take that back.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Nov 2, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
Have an awesome trip to Sardinia. You're living the dream, man.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 2, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
Blog?
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Nov 3, 2009 - 02:22am PT
Afghani kush, eh? I can work something out.

Ok anybody else with the 5.8 jabs? Get 'em in now while the gettin's still good!

Jefe - for a while there last week I had you confused for Healyje or someone who had me pegged for some anti-government kook. Yea, man I'll lead why not! Bring it on! Didn't you know, I rock 5.8s??

And poor dog. He/She looks ready to jump out of your arms and hightail it.

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 3, 2009 - 06:41am PT
Masfghani, pit your 5.8 skillz on Fantasia, at the leap. You got the moves, what about the head?
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Nov 3, 2009 - 11:52am PT
Jayfro -

Say whatttt????

Yea, I'll climb it. I don't care. I just don't think my follower, who's a total of 5' flat, will be able to take my lead. So I'll have to have you belay me.

But then again, you might drop me.
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