Twilight Zone

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 57 of total 57 in this topic
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 15, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
This is an edit of the original post, since it popped back up again. Not fishing for beta anymore. Someone thought the thread was worth ressurecting, and I agree.
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
OR
Oct 15, 2009 - 08:55pm PT

Crucial beta: prior to tie-in, place hands in beehive for ten minutes.


I'm pretty sure Haan has supplied (additional) precision beta on TZ in an earlier thread. Though I tried to avert my eyes, the weakness of my flesh prevailed.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
This may tell you more than you wanted to know: http://supertopo.com/climbers-forum/129144/Offwidth_tips_and_The_Twilight_Zone

So as to beat Jaybro, Russ, Ed H et al to the punch, "Yer gonna die".
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
Thanks, y'all. I'm familiar with the Haan thread. And I know I'm gonna die...hopefully not anytime soon...
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 15, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
plug in a 4.5 tube and run it out, or use modern pro that fits. With today's rack you just gotta grunt. do you really need every move on 3x5 cards in your lap? Just go there, it will seem like a long pitch.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Oct 15, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
You can drape a sling over a flake at the start..... then up near the top you can get a fist jam and a 4" cam that looks pretty good. But before that, your stack needs to explode due to sweat and you punch yourself in the face and slide out of the corner only to stop because a rivet on your Levis caught a crystal on the way by..... oh.... and your belayer needs to be on acid. At least that was the way I did it.
WBraun

climber
Oct 15, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
And climb the last pitch to the top.

Otherwise you never did the route .....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 15, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
MH beat me to the punch, oh, he said that already.... man....

make sure to take beautiful pictures, and make a great video...
then post the TR here! or better yet, over at WideFetish
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 15, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
Seconding Werner. You have to do the entire route. There is already too much beta available on the crux pitch but the final pitch is also....... is also.... very interesting and certainly part of the climb. You will be fine; it is well-representative of the big time offwidths but actually might be even a bit more dangerous as there is a guillotine flake at the bottom of the crux lead. With modern pro you will be reasonably safe. If your cardiovascular condition is not superb, wait until it is.
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
Jaybro, do you have those 3x5 beta cards? Without those I'll just have to throw myself at it and wait for death, being sure to bring a sling for the chopper flake at the bottom and a piece of two-by-four or something for the top as Fish suggested...
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
The 2" x 4" is for whacking yourself on the head. Useful whether you get to the top (teach yourself a lesson), or don't get off the ground (prevents you from doing so).

The 3" x 5" cards work best as protection when duct taped to the right wall.
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
Do the whole route- copy that. I hear what you are saying, Werner and Peter. Though neither of you would remember me, I have met both of you guys and have the utmost respect for your opinions and think you both are great guys, in my humble opinion. Okay, 'nuff said.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 15, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
Great Okie! We (WB and I) both just have no clue with your "handle" of Okie. I wish I was aware more of who I am talking to here generally. There have been so many that I would like to reconnect with, you know, before it is too late. AND this climb has no relationship to the kind of stuff going on nowadays for the most part--- it is Pratt's Magnum Opus from 44 years ago.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 15, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
San Leandro? I'll leave those cards at the 7-11 closest to BIW. take pictures!
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Oct 16, 2009 - 08:13am PT
russ,
your rad.

oh, and to the orig. poster:

rap in and pre-place some gear:


a fricken tall boy pabst blur ribbon (or equivalent) end-to-end-big-bro-style at exactly 62' above finished floor.

above, there is a good rest that invites wine...ing.

ps.
ive never done the route but hope to hobble over its lip some day.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 5, 2009 - 10:58am PT
Just saw this pic today of Nic Taylor on it, which I'd never seen. We've all seen the one in the book, but this is a different shot. Marty put it on the Yosemite Climber Project blog, apparently it was from a Climbing mag preview of the upcoming book.
EDIT: Scan courtesy of Grossman, via MartyR.

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2009 - 11:31am PT
How'd that go?
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
Funny how threads disappear for awhile off the screen and then reappear later. Thought this one was gone.
TZ is still on my list for this winter. That weekend in question nobody in my crew wanted to follow it. I assume there are no fixed anchors atop the 2nd pitch,(beta I was asking for) so it seemed like too much logistics to climb it, rap down and clean it, then hike around to the top, rap again...
And I really do want to do it as a complete route anyway.
We did some other wide stuff instead and honestly, some more training wouldn't hurt! But that route really inspires me, Jaybro.
Steppin' Out is another one I'm working my way up to.
For a long time I avoided the wide. Now it feels like relearning to climb, and it's so much fun!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
I don't remember about the anchors, but Spyork and Gary carp(?) toproped it... Ask them?
scuffy b

climber
Whuttiz that Monstrosicos Inferno?
Nov 5, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
"For a long time I avoided the wide. Now it feels like relearning to
climb, and it's so much fun."

I've been saying variations of this for a while, and it's really true.
It's a boon to have this arcane method to learn, instead of just resigning
yourself to never being fit enough to climb the way you used to.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 5, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
I once took a look at TZ from the ground and thought I do not need that kind of pain. Give me a good finger crack.

Juan
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 5, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
Peter says
"If your cardiovascular condition is not superb, wait until it is."

But my buddy says, "You ain't gettin' younger and stronger. Yer gettin' older and weaker...so get cher ass up there!"
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
I've said this many times.

In order to learn off-width climbing one must spend some time on it.

It's a very difficult discipline to master as it is not as natural to climbing as face and cracks.

The best guys have always spent a good deal of time on off-width learning how to work with their body to climb it efficiently without wasting all ones energy on it.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 5, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
Do people lead it more than once?

Juan
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
Werner speaks even more truth than even he, usually does, in this one,
Offwidth is endurance, kinesthetic awareness ( you gotta be able to pimp any rest that comes your way!) and sometimes some party tricks .

This loser for instance,


Could barely tie in after that lead. I hear his timing has gotten better, but still needs work...!


-Leversee photo.
scuffy b

climber
Whuttiz that Monstrosicos Inferno?
Nov 5, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
Good question, Juan.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 5, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
Where's that pic been hiding Jay? That thing is dreamy.
Mr_T

Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
Nov 5, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
Why not just go up and TR the thing? Outer Limits is right next door, so there's definitely fun to be had.

Also, where is that wicked looking pic above from?
spyork

Social climber
A prison of my own creation
Nov 5, 2009 - 06:15pm PT

I never toproped TZ, Jay. Besides, Gary is too proud, he would just lead it.

Steve
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 5, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
Of course, Okie might have been referring to the latest young-adult vampire-romance books and movies, the latter being filmed in Vancouver. It would be seasonal, what with Hallowe'en and all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_(novel);

No idea whether one stabs a vampire left side or right side in, but I guess a wooden wedge would be needed.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
Sorry Steve, Gary, didn't some elements of the BAWC TR it sort of recently? This Alzheimer's is killing me....
Trad

Trad climber
northern CA
Nov 5, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
A few years ago my partner and I arrived at the base of Outer Limits, our first time to try the route, when seconds later a couple of Japanese climbers appeared. I asked "Are you here for Outer Limits too?" They didn't speak english but the guy pulled out a huge cam, pointed up at Twilight Zone, and smiled.

I got up to the OL belay in time to watch him lead it. For awhile only his outer foot was visible, desperately smearing the rock, but I heard a lot of grunting and then his right arm appeared grasping the huge cam, rotated up around and back inwards, and disappeared into the invisible wide. This was followed by more foot smearing, grunting, and upwards movement. It was inspiring.

TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 8, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
Werner- "And climb the last pitch to the top.
Otherwise you never did the route..."



I climbed TZ in 1974, and I definitely remember the last pitch.

Mark Moore led the second pitch, and I led the first and last pitch.

Definitely a pucker factor on the last pitch.

Kind of odd in that you go from a left side in OW, up to a steep ramp off of a ledge, with sketchy pro ('74' rack) and thin (dime) edges/friction with a dusting of dirt filtering down from above.

I had one of those "I am gonna die" moments making the crux face move. And by then I had led many of the 5.10+ and a few of the 5.11- face climbs at Suicide and Tahquitz and many of the Apron routes. But the one face lead I do remember is the last pitch of The Zone.

There is definite commitment involved and along with the dust/dirt, I felt a 5.9 rating was questionable.

Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 9, 2009 - 12:16am PT
The last pitch of Twilight Zone is 5.10a at least. The Reid guide of 94/98 has it this way as well. And as I said somewhere on ST, there have been a few falls there.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 01:15am PT
Peter- "The last pitch of Twilight Zone is 5.10a at least"

Glad to here that, and I surely agree.

Back in 1974 I was informed the first and last pitches were 5.9 for what ever reason.

I felt the first pitch was a comfortable 5.9, and after getting my butt kicked on the second and barely surviving it, I was anticipating the third to be a breeze.

I don't have Donny's guide. There are allot of routes I wonder about.

One for instance is the difficulty of the two back to back off-width pitches on the 'Son of Heart'?

First lead by Rick Sylvester.

A very good friend of mine attempted the second ascent of 'The Son of Heart' in 1975. The only reason I didn't join him as planned is a severe case of dysentery after another wall we had just done together.

He told me in detail about leading both pitches with absolutely no pro/zero/Nada, 100+++ feet run-out on 5.10 ow. He said he sat for a day looking up at them before he committed himself to leading. He said he new they were going to be totally unprotected from belay to belay.

His name was Dave Stutzman(sp)RIP.

Dave was an incredible climber and alpinist.

He was patrolling at 'Big Sky' Montana and was buried in an avalanche on Christmas Eve 1982.

They made it to less than one pitch below Thanksgiving ledge, ran out of water a couple days before that. Mark Chapman and somebody else rescued them.

Dave was realy disappointed after completing practically all of the 'SOH' and with less than a pitch...

Does any one know what those two back to back off width pitches are rated today?? I think Dale Bard and Mike Graham bagged the second ascent a few years later.

WBraun

climber
Nov 9, 2009 - 01:20am PT
Mark Chapman and somebody else rescued them.

Jim Orey I think

Hey those guys bailed on Mark and Jim.

They said they'll buy dinner that night and they skipt town .......
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 02:21am PT
Werner!

I new I was opening an old can of worms.

I heard about that.

Also Mark told me that they threw down a rope from 'Thanksgiving' an 11 mil.

Maurice (the other climber on the ascent) jugged up it. Then Mark threw down a 7 mil. expecting Dave to tie the haul-bag to it, which Dave did and cut it loose. But Mark was shocked to see Dave jugging up on the 7mil. with the haul bag swinging below.

Mark told me that Dave never told them thanks.

I can definitely see the rift.

When I questioned Dave the following Fall.

He told me that he didn't want to be rescued, he had already prepared himself to die. Although he smiled when he said it, I believe he was serious about it.

I told him it was wrong and that their was amends to make.

He was never excepted in the 'Valley' because of his Alpinist background and style. And was considered, for lack of a better word, over committed, and a risk to climb with because of his do or die attitude.

Ask Jello about Dave's intensity! He was invited to go on an expedition with him and put up an incredible ice ascent of?? in Russia?..I forget.

Or ask Jack Tackle about the guy. They put up 'Isis's' together on Denali. And came within 400 ft of the first ascent of the Moose's Tooth or Devils Thumb which ever was high on the list of every alpinist until Bridwell finally pulled it off.

I was invited on all those climbs, and I mulled over it for many day's.
I wish I would have. Friend's warned me against it, but I made the decision.

I am not sticking up for anyone, it was a bad move on his part.

Keep in mind they were both hallucinating badly (they had hung there for four day's before anyone went up).

Regardless, he should of made amends, and its to late now.

I had nothing to do with it so I will leave it at that.

I will say that one of the nicest complements I ever got from a climber, was when Dale Bard told me that if I had joined them on the 'Son of Heart" they would have finished the climb. Dale, Bobo, Millis and a number of other people were in the room with us when Dale told me that. And although I was embarrassed at the time I new he sincere. Dave was counting on me to do the 'SOH' with him and I let him down.

The question was about those two back to back OW pitches on the 'SOH" Werner, I had nothing to do with his actions or lack of them regarding Mark and Jim.
Hunt down Maurice (Swiss climber) he stayed in the 'Valley and climbed two more routes on El Cap and the Direct on Half Dome and had pleenty of opportunity's to repay Mark and Jim. I saw little of Dave after that.

I just asked a question about the difficulty of the OW's. I regretted not going and I have always been curious as to the nature of those two pitches.


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 9, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
Trip7,

You might read Terra Icognita of the Mind by Reinhardt Karl(sp?). It's about an early repeat of SOH by some Germans. I remember the wide stuff being a focus.

Here's a TR from Levy and E: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/682186/Son_Of_Heart_-_T_R

Huber called Kierkegaard Chim 12b when they did El Corazon, but all the topos I've seen for SOH call the chims 5.10.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 9, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
how can a route with a Kierkagard chimney be anything but fabulous?
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
Elcapinyoazz!

Thanks alot. I am going to be spending alot a time reviewing Levy and E's TR of SOH. It is just incredible. Fantastic shots.

Dave gave me a pitch by pitch run down of SOH and the ordeals they encountered. This was Dave and Maurice's first El Cap. route.

Maurice led the 'A5' roof, a long day nailing a left facing roof, higher up on the route. It was the hardest aid pitch from what I recall Dave telling me, they called it A4. Was no A5 in 1975.

Dave told me when they got to the bottom of what he described as a double over-hanging, flared off width corner, shooting up for more than 250 ft. He just laid there in his hammock (not a portaledge, this was Spring, 1975) for a whole day he said. One whole day, just staring up at that beast.

He said he slept little that night.

There were no 'cams' in 1975.

He told me that the next day, some where around 100 ft out with no pro in, Maurice started yelling madly, "put in some protection, put in some protection". And in Dave's words "just to get him to shut up, I took one of my aider's and rolled it up into a ball, and shoved it back into the crack, of course it wasn't going to hold anything. But it shut him up for a while."

He said it fell out after he got about 20 ft. higher, and Maurice started yelling "were going to die, we are going to die" in his Norwegian accent.

Think about it, absolutely zero pro for the whole pitch (Nietzsche Chimney) he gets to the belay and then another identical pitch (Kirkegaard Chimney), waiting for him.

He led both pitches in one day. Over 250 feet of the most hideous off-widths in the 'Valley', totally unprotected.

Think about it again, Huber called it 12b.

Dave told me he used absolutely no aid or pro on those two pitches, and Maurice confirmed it.

I have sat and wondered, and day-dreamed about those two pitches, and the rest of SOH for countless hours over the years. And wondered how I would have fared. One of those two leads would have been mine.

Dave was the best off width climber I had ever climbed with. That I was certain of long before his attempt on SOH.

Thanks again, Iam going to be spending some time reviewing this TR.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 9, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
Walt never mentioned a .12 chimbly after he did SOH.....
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
Elcapinyoazz!

When I asked Dave how hard the chimney's were, that gleaming smile he always had when he was 'putting you on' lit up his face and he said "5.10".

That's what Sylvester called them and Dave wasn't about to differ. But it was apparent from his description, that they were HARD.

He said that he spent the whole day inching his way up those two pitches.

There was an obvious tone in the 'Valley to down play Dave's achievement regarding the OW pitches.

One of the 'Valley elite' at the time, a friend of mine, once mentioned that Dave was held in high regard as an OW climber. It was obvious that it wasn't something to be discussed/admitted openly.

I just want to add, that Dave got some of his 'bad rep' doing things that are common place today. Like free soloing the 'Smokestacks' on the Wheeler Crest, just north of Bishop. That was about 1975. Rated 5.9 then, upgraded to 5.10 by today's standards. And only after finding no one to accompany him, which was a common dilemma of his.

In other words he did it reluctantly. But climbing was his total focus, and climbing won out in that debate.

The dude wasn't understood!

I believe Dave's OW leads on SOH should go down in the 'hallowed annals' of 'Valley Lore'. But of course it would have to first pass the desk of the 'Bhagwan'(with all due respect). And I seriously doubt if that shall happen anytime soon.

Peace.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 9, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
TripL7:

Just a few things off the top of my head. There's a pic or two in the Zak/Huber Yosemite picture book of Huber climbing the Kierkegaard.

Also, the free route El Corazon links up parts of SOH with Albatross and another route or two. Here's the Huber topo of El Corazon, courtesy of Clint's site, with their ratings for the SOH pitches:

EDIT: topo was wide, blowing out the sidewalls. Removed and added link instead. http://tiny.cc/arzYG
Credit: Clint Cummins.

Might have to go take a look for myself in May.
WBraun

climber
Nov 9, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
The Kierkegaard Chimney.

That thing is the scariest ass pitch I've ever looked at. I was so scared I almost fainted. We bivied at the base of this thing and I almost couldn't eat that night thinking I had to lead this beast.

I only had one piece to protect it to boot. I was totally fuking terrified and Shipley was laughing at me as I turned white with fear.

Turned out it was no big deal. It was all in my head. The thing is an illusion up there being so overhanging looking from below.

Man .... I never want to feel like again ....


Photo borrowed & credit from Levy's thread.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 9, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
Good golly. Werner gone snail eyed? Maybe I don't wanna go up there, after all.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
Awesome Werner, I had heard Walt had done SOH, for some reason I thought he had soloed it.

Well, thanks for posting.

What did Walt think of the of the Nietzsche Chimney. I suspect he led that pitch.

Did you guy's have a few cams?

It was Dave's first Cap route, he had spent a couple of years climbing in the Alp's, and had done some major mixed Alpine routes there.

He showed up in the Valley Summer '74' and climbed some with Alex McIntyre, (birds of a feather). They had some big aspirations, but just ended up climbing the Chouinard/Herbert, and than bailed due to heat.

Maurice, couldn't find anyone to climb with. He climbed in a beat up old pair of 'Super Guide' mountain boots. I remember Dave approaching me and asking if I would consider including him. I told him to forget it.

We were putting together a rack, and were coming up short. Maurice had a fairly good wall rack, he had done the 'Trollten Wall' in Norway, first or second ascent. Maurice insisted that he could lead any 5.9 in the Valley in his mountain boots (it was all he had ever climbed in). And the only way were going to borrow any of his gear was if we took him with us on SOH.

So Maurice's rack looked more and more tantalising as days went buy and we decided on a test. We took him down to Moby Dick and a couple other classics to see if Maurice could lead them in his mountain boots. To our surprise he had no difficulty whatsoever.


Dave sold me on the SOH in Mammoth the prior winter. We did 'The Gold Wall' for a warm-up. The aid variation of the old Kor route. 'Silent Line' hadn't gone yet...remember looking at it and thinking "why didn't they go over there".

Well, I will for ever regret not doing SOH with Dave, it would have been a good introduction to the 'Big Stone'.

Peace Werner, John.


fosburg

climber
Nov 9, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
The Kierkegaard chimney is way proud and aptly named, the Nietzsche being relatively light. Coz lead it in about 20 min. (Left Side In!) when we were up there.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
Elcapinyoazz!

Thanks for the links man. I can tell I am not gonna get much sleep tonight.

If you climb SOH this Spring you will have to change your handle to 'Elcapinyobadazz'!

Be sure and let us know a little in advance, would like to be there cheering you on.

Thanks Again, John.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
fosberg!


Kevin, did you and Coz carry any cams?

Just curious if you needed them or not.
fosburg

climber
Nov 9, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
Yes, a few big cams are handy on that route.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 9, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
Hey Will, I'm in!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 9, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
Cool, Jay. We can warm up on that and then go send that missing orange wedge thing up there left of the Nose dihedrals.

That photo above, actually looks very similar style to (but longer than) the action on One Armed Giant.
prunes

climber
Nov 9, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
I know alot of Dave Stutzman from what my friend Tommy Duechler has told me.Together they had climbed a new route on Burkett,Breithorn Northface,Polar circus and a attempt on the Cassin route on Jiraschanca.On the return trip from South America they boarded the plane with a large bag of cocoa leaves and then realized they are illegal and eat them all before landing.Have only hear good things about Stutzman.
WBraun

climber
Nov 9, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
TripL7 -- "What did Walt think of the of the Nietzsche Chimney."

I don't know?

We made a deal before we went up on that wall.

I said I"ll lead the whole upper dihedral above the heart roof, all the off-width & wide stuff. "I'll bring one big cam and a 6" aluminum bong and my free climbing shoes."

That way our rack is light and we will smoke the route .....
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 9, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
Werner!

I had just assumed you were swinging leads.

fosburg pretty much answered the question.

Much gratitude towards you both.
2 l l

Sport climber
Rancho Verga, CA
May 7, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
Crucial beta: prior to tie-in, place hands in beehive for ten minutes.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 6, 2012 - 12:00am PT
bump
Messages 1 - 57 of total 57 in this topic
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta