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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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paul roehl- "Romans 11:32 we are only condemned so that God may grant us salvation"
He is talking about the Jews!
They, on a whole rejected Christ as their Messiah.
He is stating that eventually all Jews will be saved! All of Israel(Nation) turn to the Messiah of the Gospels during the Tribulation.
Read it in context to the surrounding verses!
It was prophesied and occurred(that He would turn to the Gentiles).
Entrapment?? If you have no confidence in a Higher Power with a plan for your life. Someone who is capable of intervening in your life, capable of revealing Himself to you! And you CHOOSE to believe that it is a survival of the fittest with no absolute right or wrong. It is simple, it is a choice. You have demonstrated that choice by your beliefs. He is still offering you an escape from your own hopeless eternal destination, separation from Him!!
I surly do not call that entrapment. You choose to not believe/reject Him. So be it. He is not about to force you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healyje!
I was born with Spina Bifida Occulta!
I had an open sore lesion, the size of a nickle on my sacrum(very painful) until well into my adult life. Had a very painful surgery at 52yrs old. Pretty much was responsible for my degenerative disk disease and compound bulges and one disk collapse(L5S1) at age 51.
If I was born a decade later, they probably would have strongly recommended that I be aborted in the first trimester! I probably would not have been here to experience this life. I am glad I have had the opportunity, regardless of all the pain and suffering.
I have often wondered and asked why. It has pretty much ruined life as I would have liked to have enjoyed it.
There are certainly lots of worse case scenarios. At least I had bowel and bladder control. But alot of pain. Never ending pain!!!
The world is decaying/dying. So is the solar system/universe. He did not create it that way.
Take it up with Him. He loves you. And offers you HOPE.
His love and grief far exceeds anything that man can comprehend!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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you all take some time out and take this in:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pagels03/pagels_index.html
"I'm concerned about our country, because one can see how appeals to religion, like those that are currently being made by the religious right, can work in a democracy to subvert all of the values to which they give lip service. It worked brilliantly with the Roman Empire. Beliefs are overrated in Christianity. Religious traditions have to do with a lot more than beliefs.
While the Constitution does protect religious freedom of worship, it's supposed to protect secularism."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sorry to hear about your ongoing pain.
My point is that if we were 'designed', then starting with the combinations of genes, amino acids, proteins, and all the processes entailed in even 'simple' lifeforms, it would mean a 'designer' would have had to have been into the incredible and near infinite minutae of life's biological and chemical processes down to molecular levels. If a 'designer' capable of that - and given that some organisms are much better at repairing genetic defects then others - then it means there is 'intention' around different designs relative to their robustness and hardiness in the face of genetic anomolies. It also would mean that such varying genetic and congenital defects are a deliberate part of the overal design and scheme of life 'as-designed' and 'as-built' - another grand statement of deliberate 'intent'. That is if 'Intelligent Design' were real.
Personally, I think ID is a completely self-condemning concept from an 'intent' and birth defects perspective.
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WBraun
climber
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Just because we are defective and limited we project our own defects and limitations onto perfection does not in any way diminish that perfection in any way whatsoever.
Also secularism is bogus. It's just another secretarian "ism".
It will fail and it is failing as we can see .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Thanks Ed!
Personally, I have a feeling that this fervor of the so called "Religious Right" had nothing to do with attempting to turn the US into a totalitarian state. At least not any believing Christians. That is totally absurd and an attempt at fear/scare mongering.
And I and many prominent Christian leaders(Pat Robertson etc.)believed it was a big mistake to go into Iraq. All you need to do is read what the Bible says about the country.
I never agreed with the "marriage" of politics and religion. I, and most Christians I know, live life by example(often fail)and strive to be the "salt of the earth". What morals society excepts, is society's choice.
There is no doubt in my mind that the US is on a downward spiral. Look at the past thirty or forty years. I do believe it is a direct result of the rejection of the Ten Commandments and rejection of a belief in God. Plain and simple.
Who removed the Ten Commandments? Liberals, Conservatives? I know it was not Christians! But that was Americas choice.
And that is what Jesus Christ is about CHOICE!
He would never want to subvert His beliefs on anyone. It would be impossible! That would equal=RELIGION!!
He offers a relationship!
God does recognise a country's attempt to follow His Commandments/morals.
America has drifted far from where we began.
I will tell you the truth. When America in 1963 removed God from the classroom, God obliged and left the school yard/system(His presence/protection/influence). Look at the drug/gang/crime/shooting ridden schools of today. The Bible was never taught in schools to begin with. But it did have a spiritual presence. He was that presence, guarding the minds and behaviors of our youth. Believe it or not.
Rome was corrupt. Exactly opposite of what Christ preached.
And America is following that same path.
When the salt is removed, decay results.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healyje!
Your missing the whole point of the corruption/decay/defect of Creation after the fall. From the infinitesimal/molecular, to the Galactic! What you are describing was never intended to happen. That is what happened at the Fall of man. Degeneration and death. Man relinquished his God given dominion/conservatorship of the Earth, over to the ruler of this world, Satan. Not a nice guy. He is the Destroyer.
I know this sounds like a ferry tale, but it is true.
Just ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you, and He will.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Christianity fails. Why? Because it is a patriarchal dogma that links Judaic rigidity and introspective guilt with Hellenistic irrationality into a concoction of prejudice and fear. It assumes the failure of human reason as well as the failure of an intrinsic human morality. It requires us to believe in a personal god that finds so much joy in our redemption he commits us all to sin at our births. One could argue, as Gibbon did, that the Roman Empire was destroyed and the “dark ages” ushered in, by the advent of Christianity.
The idea that a Pentecostal believer is speaking in translatable ancient tongues and not psychotic gibberish is just plain ludicrous. Christianity and its political vehicles have created havoc in Western culture for centuries. And, as Hume said so insightfully centuries ago, there is no such thing as a miracle, because miracles by their very nature are impossible.
The word, as articulated in the New Testament, is God, but the word is an invention of humanity. The closest thing to a personal god in this universe is humanity. It’s a shame we can’t act more like gods. Kindness and good will inhere naturally in the human heart; they don’t need 2000-year-old sheepherder or camel driver mythologies to make them real or active.
But all religion tied to specific dogma and the faith of belief fails as well.
Consider the hundreds of world mythologies; doubtless they can’t all be true or real. Certainly, the doctrines of Islam can’t be true if the doctrines of Christianity are. It is a given that some mythologies are false and yet each is served by faith. Faith can hardly be the measure of truth because it so often serves what is false. Without faith all mythological systems fail, and if one mythology is false then it’s possible that all mythologies are false.
To hold up faith and miracles as a manifestation of reality is only a weak attempt to be reconciled to the inevitable. To claim we can’t know god because of his mysterious nature is to beg the question why the mystery? To claim the world is a veil of illusion is to abandon all reason to a procrustean bed of inconsistencies and theological foolishness predicated on personal belief and our pathetic need to be reconciled to an inescapable human fate. No one can know of god with certainty and god will not tell us; his name is ambiguity. And we can only wonder -- what’s the point?
Faith is always delusion by definition.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Paul- "because miracles by there very nature are impossible".
Everything is possible with God, nothing is impossible.
Every breath you take, everyday you are given to live is a miracle. Open your eyes, look at the Universe. The perfect order/laws of the universe. Perfect order from chaos over billions of years?
When I was 8yrs old, I was about to be murdered by a serial killer. According to his son and daughter who were there, he murdered over thirty young boys! He told me he was going to torture me and when they found my body they would think I was hit by a train. I was trapped.
I new little of Jesus, other than He claimed to be God and that He loved children. I called out to Him "Jesus Please Help Me" I was filled with His presence/peace, and walked away. From certain death.
That was a miracle, and the beginning of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He has done many things/miracles in my life and others over the more than 50 years since that initial day.
I am sorry to here you have come to a purely systematic/mental deduction that there is no God.
There is nothing wrong with reason. For as hard as you endeavor to disprove His existence, you will never succeed.
Jesus made a simple claim, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, there is only one Way to the Father, and that is through Me." Why not take Him up on that challenge. You don't know for 100% that God does not exist! You are a brilliant mind I perceive, don't let arrogance rob you of being 100% sure about who Jesus Christ realy is.
Just simply ask Him, and ask Him into your life if He is who He says He is. Only a fool would refuse what He has to offer.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
Thanks for the post about Ardi from Science. That will make a great reference to put on a web page for my physical anthro classes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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It seems that the two sides of this issue have reverted to insulting each other again.
To the atheists I will say that Judaism, Christianity and Islam together, still represent less than half the human race so to deny God or condemn religion based on their failings is a very narrow and biased view of both God and human aspirations.
There are many people on this planet who are trying to envision a more modern, scientific, and universal view of religion, most of them using an evolutionary framework to do so. Their efforts are much more interesting than just rehashing the same stuff over and over.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There are many people on this planet who are trying to envision a more modern, scientific, and universal view of religion, most of them using an evolutionary framework to do so.
I'd say the first problem you have with that concept is it will be completely rejected out of hand by individual religions. The second problem using a concept like the evoloution of religion, is it would seem to imply that all of mankind's religions prior to now were not absolutely true. Remember, many of those beliefs weren't idle - people were sacrificed to gods over beliefs which were held to be true and absolute.
It gets back to the question: are you saying the Greeks, Romans, Mayans, Inca, and thousands of other religions had it 'wrong' or that their beliefs weren't 'true'? Seems like that path is a slippery slope to me...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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God does recognise a country's attempt to follow His Commandments/morals.
America has drifted far from where we began.
Back in the day where they burned witches, had slaves, killed blasphemers, and committed genocide on the indians?
I think we might have even improved since then!
Paying lip service to God in school while engaged in the actions above shouldn't curry favor with any diety
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healyje-
The idea that a religion is literally true is fortunately not as widespread as many paranoid atheists would like to believe. This is an idea that afflicts only western religions for the most part and only the fundamentalist factions of those.
While it is more amusing to conjure up the most ignorant and bigoted examples of religion that one can currently find, declare that they represent all religions, and then have fun shooting them down, all this accomplishes is reinforcing the biases of both atheists and fundamentalists.
The vast majority of people even within western religion have long ago moved on.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Karl!
There were a total of 14 "witches" killed. Granted 14 to many, by a evil Godless town. And America paid with the blood of over 600,000 young men to correct the injustice of slavery. And racism is still alive in America! What happened to the Native Americans and the slaughter of the great buffalo herds was all gigantic marks against humanity and all part of the obvious inherent flaw of mankind. America hasn't won a war since WW II!
EDIT: Has nothing to do with "paying lip service", it was declaring that God does not exist, and making anyone who believes in a Creator God out to be a fool and archaic moron. Well you better hope your right. Because if I was God, and got booted out of anywhere well...look at the results!!!! Great time to raise a kid in America. They are considering issuing bullet proof vests and six shooters to teachers! And yet if kids gather before school and pray around the flag pole they either get arrested or shot!! Go figure.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The idea that a religion is literally true is fortunately not as widespread...
Not as widespread among who?
While it is more amusing to conjure up the most ignorant and bigoted examples of religion that one can currently find, declare that they represent all religions, and then have fun shooting them down, all this accomplishes is reinforcing the biases of both atheists and fundamentalists.
I wouldn't under any circumstances call the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Mayans, or Inca "ignorant" or "bigoted" - they were however, resolute in their beliefs - probably far more so than people are today. And what represents "all religions" is belief. Again, it would seem to me that you are the one casting those civilizations' somehow childish for holding literal and absolute beliefs.
The vast majority of people even within western religion have long ago moved on.
Wow Jan, that's quite a claim. I'd say the world might not be with you on this one. This seems like a pretty dismissive wave of the hand saying 'educated' adults [or civilizations] have "moved on" [from primitive myth]. Maybe check with Werner on that one as well, he seems pretty resolute about the authoritativeness of Vedic beliefs.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Taking God out of schools wasn't about teachers reading from or "giving lip service to" the Bible in school. They never did back then. I never heard them. And my two older sisters and younger brother never did either. It was about not being allowed to bring a Bible to school, pray in school(I am talking about individually or in small groups before or after school). Or wear any "religious"(meaning Christian)clothing/jewelry. Or allowing campus clubs after school. Or write or give credit to, or speak of belief in God in a written or oral report. Among other things. And the humanistic/survival of the fittest/no absolute right or wrong darwinian Godless dogma that is increasingly preached, insisting there is no God!!
And viola. Welcome to America children. Don't forget your bulletproof vests/condoms and just remember to just say no to drugs and pornagraphy on the internet and perverts! And oh yea, gangs... Compared to the fifty's and sixty's, I'd say things have changed for the worst.
But I shouldn't be all gloom and doom...hopefuly things will change for the better...for the kids sake.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Belief in god = ethics and morality?
Man, that's a stretch under the best of circumstances. That didn't even seem to be the case in the garden of eden (or is that too literal?) let alone here on Earth after god abandoned it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healeyje-
Most religions on this planet have seen religion as an attempt to understand the Divine, not as absolute truth about the Divine. One can appreciate the beauties of one's religion, and even think that one's own religion is the best for oneself, maybe for all people, without thinking that one has all the answers or that one has to force everyone else to think the same way.
In fact, if you go back in history, most human beings have been illiterate and the majority of people on this planet still are. Therefore they thought/think in symbols, in metaphors and allegories, in parables, not in terms of literal word for word interpretations. In our own culture Biblical literalism is a phenomenon of the last few centuries only, and has never represented nor does it now, represent the majority of Christians.
As for insulting nonwestern people, I dare say that having spent 30 years in Asia, I have more experience with a variety of indigenous people than you, and my experience is that they're sophisticated enough to be able to compare religions without feeling threatened. Indigenous religions emphasize experience and group identity, not written interpretations. Most of all, they understand human intentions and whether one is genuinely curious and open minded or there to sell them on an alternative whether it be religion or secularism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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TripL7-
You and I have been over the school prayer issue before also and I really don't think it's fair to blame the schools for the decline in civilized behavior among the young. It was always the parents' and religion's job to do that. If children get no ethical training because they're not exposed to religion, that's the fault of the parents for not teaching ethics at home either, or sending them where they could learn. The schools just deal with the results.
As a social scientist I think there are deeper societal reasons at work as well. We have uniquely American problems of assimilating diverse immigrants and dealing with a legacy of racism and deprivation. On top of that, we have the most unequal society among the industrialized countries, with the fewest social services, no doubt co-related with having the largest military and overseas empire of all the industrialized countries.
We also have a culture that measures everything in terms of money and material goods which also looks down on those with less money and goods. We have built our nation on suburbs which have no community center or spirit. We have also marginalized the old so they no longer live with the young or teach them. In general we have emphasized individualism to the exclusion of family and community. We also have porous borders which make it easy for drugs to enter the country and plenty of people have reason to take them. Crime ensues and the young mimic what they see.
Meanwhile, both religionists and atheists waste their time blaming each other.
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