Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout

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Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
Watching the believers here preach at the non-believers is a bit like watching someone trying to teach a pig to waltz. It wastes their time, annoys the pig, and gets them muddy. And is almost inevitably tiresome.

Preaching (all types) is quite inappropriate to this venue.
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
Unfortunately this is not correct:

Since Jesus was God, his death on the cross, only needed to happen once to forgive all sin, to please the Father

Jesus is not God, never was nor ever will. He was son like all the rest of the living entities which are part parcel of the lord.

God can't please the father since he's already the Supreme father. God is not subordinate to anayone, he always maintains his absolute Supremacy.

Technically speaking Jesus Christ was a satyavesa avatar, nita siddha, eternally liberated soul, not ordinary, who descended from the spiritual stratum to re-establish the bonafide religious principles.
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Oct 11, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
"So Gobee, Jesus HAD to die on the cross to PLEASE his "father"?
His father could not be "pleased" in some other, non violent, manner?

What the hell kind of father gets pleasure from his son's suffering?

No way good old god could have figured things out better than that?"


God didn't have to send his Son but then we could not be with Him because are sin would be unforgiven (for God is Holy), so God sent His Son Jesus, who new no sin because He LOVES US and wants us to be with Him!
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
Mighty Hiker -- "Preaching (all types) is quite inappropriate to this venue."


Then why are YOU preaching.

Trying to censor user input about what you dislike always seemed to be your spiel.


Besides -- Ghost presented excellent critical thinking in his questions.
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Oct 11, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
The Word Became Flesh
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.



Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.



Edit;

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.


It's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 11, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
This is hard for me to say, but I gotta admit that I'm with Werner here. Preaching is not inappropriate in this thread. Quite the contrary. This is a thread devoted to religious belief, so why shouldn't someone take the opportunity to preach his or her beliefs?

Mostly I'd rather not be preached at, but if I choose to enter a thread about religion and ask questions of believers, I can hardly complain when they answer. And it's also worth pointing out that most of the unpleasant, forceful preaching here has not come from the religious folks, but from the non-believers.

So if Gobee or Lynn or someone else starts getting nasty, then sure, I'll chime in and tell them to keep it civil or shut up. But until then, I'm happy to have the opportunity to hear what they have to say.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Oct 11, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
gosh ghost, just got back from the great outdoors. The earth still retains and remains beauty and beautiful. Ideas here continue to be exchanged and that also is beautiful. I want you to know I listen and ponder as well as post.

Breathing, flowing, thinking,.... living in the moment and the day along with enjoying the life given you and the people around you contains the simple peace I think we were made for. Jess a thought on a lovely evening.

(and now back to the IRS .... must complete tonight .....deadline 10/15. So where do life's pressures come from ? not god, if he indeed exists. And you know how I feel about that. :D lynnie)
MH2

climber
Oct 11, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
This thread fascinates me in large part because religion and how the brain works are two subjects that any sane person would leave alone.

There are questions in both with no definitive answer and not from lack of trying.

You should feel at least a little humility when brains as sharp as Sir Francis Crick and Roger Penrose have turned their attention to how the mind works.

http://www.consciousentities.com/penrose.htm

It is reasonable to ask what form a thought has just before you become aware of it, but quantum fluctuations coming up into the macro world by way of microtubules is pretty speculative.


By the way, it was reported somewhere that Terry Pratchett, who suffers from Alzheimer's, had "found God." This would be newsworthy for someone who has parodied religion the way he has. According to the man himself, "It is highly unlikely that I have found God since I can't even find my car keys, despite considerable empirical evidence that they exist."
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 11, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
Lynne,

As a believer you can say that life's pressures don't come from
GOD ? No responsibility to the good Samaritan [the others], no turn the other cheek,no grace , no forgiveness?
All these virtues are no birthday party !
Actually, glad your day out was great.
Jim
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 11, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
Andy,

Your wit is divine.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Oct 11, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
"It seems to me Jennie is saying here desperate people are more likely to commit crimes"

"but (she thinks) they don't follow the golden rule and so are not really religious."

"Through this evaluation of her's you can logically prove the conclusion that any "religious" person who commits a crime is not really religious."

"What am I missing"?


"An even larger number of people, all non-criminals in both categories, probably fall into the category of those not following the golden rule, assuming one could come up with a method of determining the fact."



What I was suggesting, Jstan, is placing desperate individuals who profess religion, but commit crimes adverse to that religion’s teachings, in the same category as those who attempt sincere application of religious ethics, will not accord congruent data or circumstance to make a relevant judgement. Religion is much more than professing a belief in God or announcing to the world that you’ve “been saved.” Ethical purpose should go with assertion of belief.

I wouldn’t place a decent person such as Lynne in the same category as a headline making serial killer who claims to be hearing voices from heaven. Why characterize ALL religious people together with those who broadcast their rapport with God yet conduct themselves unjustly toward their fellow humans?

Similarly, why collate the deeds of criminal atheists with the greater part of the atheist population who live by community law and deal with others fairly?

It seems many, on both sides of this issue, want to typify divergent belief systems as evil and define them by the actions of hateful and destructive individuals whom, in spirit and deed, they have little in common.
WanderlustMD

Trad climber
New England
Oct 11, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
My 2c:

Both sides of this argument are equally meaningless.

No matter what you think you know...you really don't know for sure.

So...what are you arguing for?
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
So...what are you arguing for?


I agree, arguing is stupid. I also agree that I'm stupid.

But it still doesn't mean no one knows.

Since you don't know, that's why you think no one else knows.

rolls eyes
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Oct 12, 2009 - 01:19am PT
WanderlustMD, for an educated person I'm kinda surprised you call this arguing. I suppose some is, but mostly it's an exchange of ideas. I know I have learned much since I have participated on this forum the past 20+ months and it has had a significant impact on my life philosophies. There are many gifted people here and they provide information in their areas of expertise. One listens, learns and lives. :D Peace, lynne
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Oct 12, 2009 - 01:25am PT
I like your questions Jim Brennan. I know we are all unique and created with different skills and personalities. For me I would rather learn to be a good Samaritan and turn the other cheek and learn about grace and forgiveness than do my pretty complex IRS paperwork.

For others,,,,,they would have breezed through this months ago......loser here. Love people but find it really hard to focus on numbers and forms and yadayada. Not my calling.

But at 10:30pm I think I will have it wrapped up in @ 2 more hours. Focus gal, focus. Smiles......
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 12, 2009 - 01:36am PT
Werner has reminded me that some of the best insights I ever got into Christianity came from India.

So I challenge those of you who think you know everything there is to know about Christ and Christianity (whether you are Atheist or Christian) to read something about Him from another tradition quite different from your own and see if you don't get some new insights.

http://bookstore.yogananda-srf.org/c4/The-Yoga-of-Jesus-p203.html

http://bookstore.yogananda-srf.org/c6/c12/The-Second-Coming-of-Christ-p357.html

and the long version:

http://bookstore.yogananda-srf.org/c6/c12/The-Second-Coming-of-Christ-p55.html
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 12, 2009 - 01:48am PT
Lynne-

Once again we find ourselves in a common situation! I too have to get my IRS filed by Oct. 15 as there are no more extensions left. My story is that I misplaced my W-4 and thought I would find it by now. Put it somewhere so safe, I've forgotten where (if only my house weren't being renovated). I just hate to give up and ask my employer for another copy, especially since I don't owe any tax.

Meanwhile, in Okinawa, when stuff goes missing we blame it on a mischeivious elf named Kijimuna. He seems to be especially fond of me!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Oct 12, 2009 - 03:20am PT
So Jan, when I put something in a safe place it is always the obvious, smart place, the organized place.....then I generally out think myself. So just think, where would I put this ....you will find it.

Kijimuna is not just a guest of mine, but a regular in my home. :DDD

Edit: Jan I will read your links, but lots of life happening so if I do not do it soon have patience. Peace from a friend.......

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 12, 2009 - 04:27am PT
Lynne-

I owe you an email anyway.
GOclimb

Trad climber
Boston, MA
Oct 12, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
Jennie wrote:
I wouldn’t place a decent person such as Lynne in the same category as a headline making serial killer who claims to be hearing voices from heaven. Why characterize ALL religious people together with those who broadcast their rapport with God yet conduct themselves unjustly toward their fellow humans?

Similarly, why collate the deeds of criminal atheists with the greater part of the atheist population who live by community law and deal with others fairly?

You're just defining bad people who love Jesus out of existence! You're claiming that if they are "real" Christians, that they couldn't possibly be bad people. That may help keep your numbers looking good, but can't you see how ridiculous it sounds?

See, here's the thing - some other religions don't work like this, but most Christian sects define a Christian as someone who has accepted Jesus as his/her personal savior. Period. You have NO right to claim that someone isn't a Christian when she says she is. NONE. It's antithetical to the very roots of your religion to do so.

On to your next point. As an atheist, I have no problem with the fact that some other atheists have done heinous crimes. My atheism is not a "tribe" in which I claim that "we" are good and "others" are wicked. I have no use for such nonsense. A person is as good or bad as their actions. Period. Which/how many gods they claim to believe in has nothing to do with it.

Now, could it be that more Atheists are, on average, good, and more religious people are, on average, more wicked? (Or vice versa.) Perhaps. But if so, attributing causality (did their religion make them wicked, did their wickedness drive them to religion, or did some third factor cause both their wickedness and their religion) is impossible to determine. And claiming to know how that causality works for the world population is clearly ridiculous.

Cheers,

GO
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