Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout

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Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
John 8:1-11, but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”


Don't do to others you wouldn't want done to you! (a)

Do unto others as you would want done unto you! (b)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
So if an "oldbook" Christian carried out that last deed cited by Normon-- would he be insane or mentally ill? --the same adjectives many used to label Scott Roeden, the "killer of the baby killer."

Would it be right to (i) declare him insane or mentally ill (as well as criminal), (ii) lock him away, forget about him? forget about the issue and move on? Would it be right to (iii) NOT CRITICALLY EXAMINE the circumstances any deeper?

(a) oldbook Christians: Christians who take guidance from the Old Testament.

(b) newbook Christians: Christians who take guidance from the New Testament.

Food for thought: Wasn't Scott Roeden a rare bird in today's society? meaning he was serious old-school -- a serious oldbook Christian who believed Obedience to God Jehovah means practicing (through action) His edicts?

And if we do call him "insane" or "mentally ill" isn't it for another reason altogether? because he carried around in his head antiquated bronze-age models for (you guessed it) how the world works and how life works?


But through all this, I'm thankful.
I'm thankful America doesn't have as many oldbook faithful as the Arab world. I'm thankful for evolution, in this case cultural evolution, esp since the Renaissance. In America, I'm thankful oldbook Christians are giving way to newbook Christians.


Gandi- Be the change you seek in the world.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
When Will GOD STOP ORDERING All the Killing?

The Bible is the direct word of GOD.



Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5




Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:37pm PT


Historically speaking, the oldest Christian churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Chaldean, Assyrian, Nestorian, Mar Thome) have all understood that the New Testament superseded the Old and have used the Old sparingly, citing only the best parables and sayings from the Old in their services and sermons.

The Protestants 400 years ago began putting more emphasis on all the scripture as a whole, but also picked and chose. Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
Mark 6:11, And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” Norton?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 31, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
You are right, Jan, regarding your first paragraph. And what does this show? Humans being all too human. This practice lets all the crap of the OT (the atrocities, the injustices, the deceptions, etc.) succeed as necessary (for the Iagos of the world) by flying under the radar. Shame! Well, thank goodness, growing numbers are saying, basta, enough. Of the excuse making, too.

Regarding your second paragraph: How disappointing. I also have studied the Church down through the centuries. From an earlier thread, you indicated you taught comparative religion?! Where'd you learn about the history of Christianity, in a Christian seminary?! Sorry, but being the good writer you are, your thoughtfulness on other threads, you should know better. Start with burning of William T., the burning of Bruno, books like malleus maleficarum, etc.

P.S. I know about fundamentalist Christianity (original Christianity, medieval Christianity, whatever you want to call it), my own Grandmother from Belvue KS was a diehard bible person, bible student, believing it all to the letter-- no differently from umpteen million illiterates through European medieval ages.

No excuses for its history. No cherry-picking. Not by growing millions. Thanks internet-driven info age. But you go ahead and cherry pick the history and the perspectives if that's how you want to play it.

But how fitting at this time to suggest to you to read some Howard Zinn, he's a historian (just died), who wrote of the dangers of cherry pickin perspectives, points of view, etc.

Jan wrote- Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.

That's as bogus as the truth-claim the Egyptians bombed Pearl Harbor.

EDIT And obviously the usage of fundamentalist would be new. Modern culture needed a term to contrast with moderate Christian or new-age Christian. Analogy: acoustic as in acoustic guitar is new, needed to contrast with electric guitar when the latter emerged. But that hardly means acoustic guitars didn't exist before electric guitars! It's the way language is, the way it works.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
How is this one, Gobbee?

God really gets off on human sacrifice, it thrills him to no end:



The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord".

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
The evolution of religion on this planet as discovered by Anthropology:

Hunters and Gatherers, Pastoral Nomads, Horticulturalists = Animism, Magical, Mythological religions. The oldest example of religion is Neanderthals about 150,000 years ago.

Animism = Nature worship
Mythological = Creation Account of God, Man, and the Universe
Magical = Shamans with special powers who talk to the spirit world

Genesis is the mythological element of the Abrahamic religions.

Magical religion is shown in the story of Jacob tying knotted sticks and placing them in water holes to cause more spotted sheep to be born after making a deal with his father-in-law Jacob, that he could keep all the black and spotted sheep.

Animistic religions frequently feature ideas of purity and pollution of which there are many in the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament. Frequently these take the form of food taboos though these taboos have been shown to actually be ecologically very sound ideas. Likewise ideas of bathing and childbirth.

The Middle East before oil was one of the most inhospitable places on earth. Only the tough survived in the fight for scarce water holes and arable land. The Old Testament and Koran reflect this.
......................................................................

Agricultural religions = reverential

They are labeled reverential by Anthropologists as they stress the vast difference between God(s) and human beings, reflecting the new hierarchy of humans necessary to organize society when agriculture enables so many more of them to survive and crowd together in cities.

Religion goes from a source of group identity where either men or women can be leaders to male dominated hierarchies which emphasize literacy for the proper interpretation of scripture and ritual. Priests are the intermediaries and soon manipulate both power and economics.

Typically, the head of state is also the head of the religion, a god on earth or a representative of God. The ancient Egyptians and Incas are a perfect example though the belief persisted in modern day China until the 1930's and Japan until 1945.

Agricultural religions = transcendental reactions

All of these hypocritical and oppressive hierarchies elicited spiritual reactions. The Old Testament prophets were reacting to the Jewish establishment which became reverential after the return from Egypt and the building of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Jesus of course continued this tradition. Overturning the table of the money lenders in the Temple at Jerusalem being a prime example.

Buddha occupies a similar position in opposition to the Brahmin hierarchy in India.

Christianity as a whole became a reverential religion when Constantine made it the Roman state religion.

...................................................................

18th Century Secular ideologies = industrial Age

Marxism, Fascism, Democracy, Sociology, Psychology etc.

..................................................................

21st Century trends

1) Syncretism. Choosing the best of several
2) Cultural pluralism. Recognizing they all contain truth and are just different paths
3) Experiential. The search for inner experiences away from institutions
4) Fundamentalist backlash at too much change too fast.

................................................................

Religions of transition when two cultures meet and conflict or one overwhelms the other:
Syncretism, Nativism, Cargo Cults, Millenarial-Messiah cults, Revolutions

Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
"How is this one, Gobbee?"

God is a Holy God! He sent His Son as a sacrifice once and for all! If He didn't no one could be saved!

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
Fructose-

I was writing about a particular over all interpretation of the Bible, a theological issue based in part on other issues like the veracity of translations.

You are writing about atrocities which occurred as the result of medieval Catholic church power holders feeling that their power was threatened by alternative interpretations of scripture and philosophy.

The medieval battle was over the source of authority, and the perceived threat to a political and religious edifice based on both scripture and Greek philosophy. When Galileo, argued that the earth went around the sun, he was contradicting Aristotle and the melding together of the Bible and Greek philosophy which had held together for over a thousand years, not just scripture.

The Catholic church erroneously thought that everything would come apart if any one part of it was shown to be incorrect (the same mistake the Protestant fundamentalists are currently making). Centuries later, the Catholic Church is still here, the largest denomination of Christianity in the world, and it has made the declaration that Christian faith and evolution are compatible.

It is however, still trying to maintain the primacy of males over females in my estimation, by focussing so much on sexual issues like divorce, birth control, abortion, male priests only etc. Interestingly, the branch of Christianity losing members most rapidly however, are the mainstream Protestants who based their faith on scripture alone. A literal interpretation is not possible for thinking people and they are now stranded between the fundamentalists or accepting the older Christian consensus that there are other sources of authority such as tradition and ritual, or they are becoming New Age and Renascent Christians.

The Catholic church cleverly is continuing to grow by giving up on the educated, developed world, and focussing on poor developing countries which it makes even poorer with its polices on birth control. This can only last a generation or two however, until those areas of the world become educated enough to ask the same questions which brought disbelief and rebellion in the West.

Any way you look at it, Christianity is in trouble unless it makes major changes. It will either change or fall from its own internal contradictions. The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
What kind of god would order his own son to be tortured and die?

Answer: A god made up in the heads of really backward and ignorant people.


Gobbee, let's you and I agree to stop posting sections from the bible?

We are not converting anyone to our point of view, so let's just stop?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
I think Jan has it pretty much right...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christians

Fundamentalist Christianity, also known as Christian fundamentalism or fundamentalist evangelicalism, is a movement that arose mainly within British and American Protestantism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among conservative evangelical Christians, who, in a reaction to liberal theology, actively asserted that the following ideas were fundamental to the Christian faith: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. Some who hold these beliefs reject the label of "fundamentalism", seeing it as a pejorative term for historic Christian doctrine,[1] while to others it has become a banner of pride. Such Christians prefer to use the term fundamental as opposed to fundamentalist (e.g., Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamental Baptist Association of Michigan, and Independent Fundamental Churches of America).[2]

see The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
No Jan, I wrote of your bogus claim:

Only at the beginning of the 20th century, when the term fundamentalist was coined, did a specific group of Protestants begin to maintain that every word was the inerrant word of God. This is a very modern and very American understanding. Something like 99% of the other Christians in the world regard it as a kind of heresy.


And now I write another:

The hostile accusations of atheists will have little or no impact on what happens.

Written with such certitude. Well, I'd take that bet. Time will tell. When that large demographic that currently assembles under the term atheist gets with the program and redefines itself-- under another name and language, under an alternative belief discipline model, we shall see the impact. And in this new era, I have a high level of confidence historians will see the "atheists" as a major factor in the mix.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
Dr. F-

I don't find labels very useful especially for multi cultural people like myself, but if Gobee's interpretation is correct, then I too am among the doomed.

I say this with a chuckle however, as I don't believe it for a second even. I spent my early childhood in Texas so I heard and rejected his interpretations many years ago.

I tuned out his kind of interpretations by about the age of 5. The turning point for me was being told that all the children in China were going to burn for eternity because they had never heard of Jesus. I knew already that could not be right.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 31, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
I don't find labels very useful especially for multi cultural people like myself.

Another sloppy statement. Reframe it: I don't find bad labels very useful... I don't find outdated labels very useful. I don't find vague labels or ill-defined labels very useful. Your name is a label. Climber is a label. Boy is a label. Every noun in the language is a "label."
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Feb 1, 2010 - 12:00am PT
"fundamental to the Christian faith: the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ."

Amen Brother!


WBraun

climber
Feb 1, 2010 - 12:01am PT
"..... all the children in China were going to burn for eternity because they had never heard of Jesus."

Statements like that will surely create atheism.

No sane person will ever accept such a statement.

Even Jesus Christ himself would not accept .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 1, 2010 - 12:09am PT
Ed- C'mon, did you read the whole page for context. That wiki piece concerns the term, the language. The earlier context of the thread was written in regard to whether early and medieval Christians in the villages and on the farms were literalist or not. Jan is apparently under the impression Christians of these periods by and large didn't have a literal take of the scriptures, that a "literal take" is a modern, largely American invention! So, two different issues here.

Morever, she says I was speaking of the political leadership, governments, rulers and such. This is incorrect. I had in mind the context: the illiterate masses in the villages and on the farms.

See the analogy between "fundamentalist" and "acoustic" I made. This may clarify...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 1, 2010 - 12:09am PT
Time will tell. When that large demographic redefines itself-- under another name and language, under an alternative belief discipline model, we shall see the impact.


If you are referring to constructing a new religion like naturalism I would agree.

Be aware however, that in order for it to be more than just another interesting idea, you will have to become an institution and in due time will get bogged down with all the foibles of religious institutions.
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Feb 1, 2010 - 12:13am PT
Jan, God is just and would never condemn anyone if they really never heard of Jesus! But when your to good for God and want nothing to do with Him, He'll give you what you want!




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