Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 20, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
imposing extremely higher taxes and penalties onto the Energy Co's

Extremely higher taxes and penalties? Sounds like you have been believing the right wing scare tactics.

The majority don't want higher taxes or penalties. They want the most efficient and sustainable ways to reduce CO2 emissions with the least negative impact on the economy. e.g. investing in alternative energy and efficiency is much better than trying to regulate reducing CO2. If the US has a lead in alternative energy and efficiency improvements (such as smart grid technology) not only do we reduce CO2 and global warming so the effects are less costly to our economy, but we take a lead in technology that can be sold to the rest of the world.

But of course you have people like the Koch brothers making billions of dollars off petrochemical energy, they like the status quo they don't want us investing in technologies that threaten their business. They have been so consumed by greed that they don't see they could be living fuller lives making the planet better for everyone instead of just trying to make as much money as possible. They hired the very same PR company that sowed doubt that cigarettes can cause cancer, who is spinning out all this B.S. to create doubt about AGW.

You can argue all you want about what we should do about AGW (and we should because that's a real debate we should be having) but to argue that it's not happening is almost as stupid as saying cigarettes can't cause cancer.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 20, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
The majority don't want higher taxes or penalties. They want the most efficient and sustainable ways to reduce CO2 emissions with the least negative impact on the economy.

The Fet,

I agree that the majority want mild costs and maximum carbon reduction. Unfortunately, that trade-off doesn't come cheap (compare, for example, the proposed EPA rules on new coal-fired electric plants with what is required now). We're dealing with some rather costly trade-offs, with frightening consequences if we get it wrong.

It's partly for that reason that I find it particularly critical to divide the science from the politics. The more people understand the reality of the trade-off, the better decisions we make.

Unfortunately, too many of us don't trust the decision-making of the rest of us. This results in communications aimed at the general public containing spin rather than unvarnished science. Even the IPCC is subject to this criticism, because governments, not just scientists, have editorial input.

Whether we like it or not, we're dealing with an intellectually complex and challenging area, with expensive policy implications. Any attempt to make it seem simple, certain or cheap doesn't reflect the real choices we confront.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 20, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
How do you propose to measure the rate of change of temperature without measuring temperature itself? For that matter, how do you determine from the prehistorical geologic record what external inputs come from, say, solar activity?

John
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-mccarthy/time-to-act-on-climate-change_b_3954969.html

We get a healthy amount of info from RW blogs here,this is what the head of the EPA said today. So radical ,aye.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
Whether we like it or not, we're dealing with an intellectually complex and challenging area, with expensive policy implications.

Unfortunately, we are also dealing with ignorant fuktards who cloud the issue with misinformation and a refusal to even consider anything they don't already believe to be true. (Not you JE, obviously.)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
A word about JE,He has brought some much needed balance and reality to this thread and forum.
I do not know you John,but you are a good man.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
http://www.thepiratescove.us/2013/09/20/if-all-you-see-896/
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Sep 20, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Doesnt that just piss you off.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
Maybe,we shall see.
"GONNA",Is that like "if" or "ever"?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
What are we going to get again by switching from the least expensive electricity source to a more expensive alternative?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Why were those alternatives more expensive again?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
A word about JE,He has brought some much needed balance and reality to this thread and forum.
I do not know you John,but you are a good man.

Word. I've never met the guy. I called him names years ago and I regret it. He has shown himself to be intelligent, reasonable, thoughtful, and patient. People like JE make the world a better place.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 20, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Go fuk yourself you ignorant fuktard.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Sep 20, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
Be careful little boy. At the rate things aren't going for you all, you will be regretting all the shet talking by this time next year.

Wonderful... is the Chief and his commune down in Bishop declaring another Jihad on scientists, starting sometime in the next year? Headquarters located somewhere around here...



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rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Sep 20, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
What the hell^^^^^^^^^^^^^. The kid has lost it?

Judith Curry has an excellent essay that was just published in the Australian and posted on her website today. Click on The IPCC's "inconvenient truth" for her assessment of the state of climate change affairs.

http://judithcurry.com/
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Sep 21, 2013 - 12:33am PT
I could NEVER attain the despisement that you have here on ST. Never
He means he could never LOWER his level down to yours.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 21, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Nice view you have there the chief.

DMT
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:35am PT
You are beginning to sound Hitleresque Bruce. " The real problem, them". The meaning of "them" is what you classify as the denialists, just as with the jews an entire segment of society, in this case the majority,are to blame for all the ails. Do you really think Bruce, that just rolling over the denialists, in implementation of a "final solution", will solve the imagined climate problem?.

The only viable solution to our real problems, in our real world, is compromise and failing this war followed by subjugation or negotiated settlement. Why do the prominent mouthpeices of the CAGW movement reject all sensible compromise for the single minded and disastrous push for not ready for prime time renewables and taxation? The ball is in your guys court. Can you rationally explain to all why their is only one solution permissible?

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:43am PT
You are beginning to sound Hitleresque Bruce.

Can you rationally explain to all why their is only one solution permissible?

Oops, thread is done. Der Fuhrer has been invoked.

Perhaps you will be able to rationally understand the scientific debate when you learn proper English.

What do you say is the "one solution" being touted? From where I stand, there are multiple sources contributing to the problem needing multiple solutions...

But you B&W ignorami are unable to grasp that.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Sep 21, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Well I think it should be more informed by physical science myself so if Rick wants to steer it back there so much the better.

Rick does not really want to steer it toward science. His "interest" in science is a pose dressed up with sciencey-sounding denialist talking points, which he would like to cite and paste. He has no interest or ability to read actual science. Two recent cases in point:

After Rick praised chronically-wrong Roy Spencer to the sky, I invited him to pick a single one of Roy's papers, read it, and discuss why he thought it was good. I even gave a link to Roy's most recent, post-dating Roy's satellite-temperature mistakes. Rick changed the subject.

When Rick demanded evidence about Antarctic CO2 and temperature, I explained some issues in my own words, then linked to three papers (2012 and 2013 in Science or Nature) giving state-of-the-art views of this topic. But Rick could not read or understand those ideas either, instead declaring
I see you cited abstracts of three comparatively recent papers that attempt to cast doubt on the accepted lag of CO2 to temps. I also see the lag still stands.

And then citing Ian Plimer of all people as an authority. George Montbiot has a good journalistic takedown of Plimer's falsehoods

Jones took up my charge and asked Plimer whether he stood by his claim that volcanoes produce more CO2 than all the world's cars and industries.

Plimer replied "I'm very heartened that a journalist is correcting me on my geology", then launched into a disquisition on how I know nothing about science. Both of us pressed him to answer the question. So Plimer said that neither of us had read his book. We both replied that we had and pressed him again.

Plimer tried to argue that the US Geological Survey only measured emissions from terrestrial volcanoes – not from submarine volcanoes. Jones, who had plainly done his homework, pointed out that a UK journalist (I think he was referring to the Guardian's James Randerson) had gone back to the USGS and asked them whether or not submarine volcanoes were included in its calculations. They were.

Plimer went off at a tangent, starting to list the numbers and kinds of submarine volcanoes. This, I soon found, was a characteristic tactic: when faced with a tricky situation, he starts throwing out random facts. I pointed out that he had been told many times that the USGS figures include submarine volcanoes: he was making a claim on national television that he should know is wrong.


Plimer's false claims have been exposed in peer-reviewed papers as well, notably this by Terry Gerlach writing in Eos. Gerlach also wrote a less technical piece for Earth magazine.

“Volcanoes add far more carbon dioxide to the oceans and atmosphere than humans.” So says geologist Ian Plimer of the University of Adelaide in his 2009 best seller “Heaven and Earth: Global Warming — the Missing Science.” With this assertion, Plimer brings volcanic carbon dioxide degassing front and center in the climate change debate, reviving and reinforcing this wildly mistaken notion.

Although discussions of volcanic carbon dioxide emissions make up less than 5 percent of “Heaven and Earth’s” text, the alleged predominance of volcanic over human carbon dioxide emissions is one of its most publicized takeaway messages. And one that will reverberate in the media and blogosphere — no matter how vociferously professionals who investigate volcanic carbon dioxide emissions bristle and huff about how appallingly at odds Plimer’s claim is with our research findings.
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