Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 7121 - 7140 of total 10834 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 24, 2013 - 09:45am PT
and you think, no, you BELIEVE the government can save the planet!!???

Well maybe, maybe not but one things for sure, we know what the Christian Evangelists have in mind for us!
new world order2

climber
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:27am PT
Curious, Bruce.

What do those evil Christians have in mind for us?

+1 bookworm, because I think he speaks of all government (both left and right) in this case.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 10:33am PT
why do you libs continue to look to the government to solve your problems when history PROVES government can't


Wheels falling off the cart, eh Booky?


Nobody is saying that Gov't can solve the problem. However, it is Governments who set energy policy for their respective countries.

Got it? Do I need to explain more, or can you catch the drift from there?

I mean, I'm used to talking to teenagers, so let me know if you need help with this.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:40am PT
+2 or 3 ,k-man
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:45am PT
What do those evil Christians have in mind for us?


Go ahead and wreck the place, it just gets us closer to judgement day which is something to really look forward to.

Evil is your choice of descriptor, not mine by the way. I just think they are batshit crazy.
new world order2

climber
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:55am PT
K, Kay. Duly noted. Thank you. Peace.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 11:02am PT
It was the other day that I had a crazy idea for a Sci-Fi story. We're probably all familiar with the premise of how an alien species "seeded" the Earth with intelligent beings. You know, we're their Guinna pigs in a petri dish sort of thing.

My story is an offshoot of this, in a weird sort of way.

Imagine, IYW, that the aliens that seeded our planet are actually way advanced. Well yeah, they gotta be, right? And, being advanced in intelligence, as well as knowing how societies and civilizations evolve, are able to predict fairly accurately how our society will advance. And that includes discovering the properties of atoms, atomic bombs, and of course, the progression of energy sources.

The aliens know about the 'black gold' that lays beneath the Earth's crust, and that we'll discover the ways it can work for us. They also know the downside of fossil fuels, and know to the decade when the evils of CO2 will catch up to us.

In this regard, they have not only planted the seeds for our civilization, but also the seeds for our book of books, the Holy Bible. You see, they know of their Second Coming, and about when it needs to happen. That the Earth will be wrapped in flames (due to the warming caused by an over-abundance of CO2), and this is all laid out in our "holy book."

The goal of our alien 'fathers' is to study, learn, and to do so in a semi-controlled environment. They offer the inputs, but we offer the reactions. Seeding us with a glimpse of the reactions from our actions will help them understand how societies evolve. Or some such BS.

I haven't fully thought out the ending, but I think all I need is someone like Arthur C. Clarke to help me write it. You know, a la Childhood's End.

And yeah, I think it was from a fog of single malt that this story came to me in a day dream.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jan 24, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Here's a nice coffee table book about the poles:

http://paulnicklen.com/polar-obsession/
http://pdnphotooftheday.com/2009/11/2673
http://www.amazon.com/Polar-Obsession-Paul-Nicklen/dp/1426205112
Yes, it does mention climate change.
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
the quite lucky people in utah have freezing rain and that is much more fun than choking pune dust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwbFWq2YLb4


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 28, 2013 - 09:07am PT
This seems like a good "condensed version" primer for dummies like me.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2013/01/28/Climate-Change-Crash-Course-4/



I was wondering if someone disciplined in the climate sciences could offer a critique on this?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 28, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Bruce,the series seems good so far ,but i am just a dumbass with a geology degree.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Jan 28, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Looks very reasonable and respectable to me but I'm just a drop-out, a garage tinkerer. My main interest was going to be Geo-Physics however. I don't think people realize just how much CO2 we put into the atmosphere - approximately 100 times what volcanoes spew every year - according to places like USGS. It is way outside what the status quo carbon cycle can handle. I think that even producing gasoline for instance, produces as much CO2 as the cars do when they burn the fuel! I started riding scooters and higher mileage motorcycles about 5 years ago just to do something for starters. I kept thinking about the Polar Bears and etc. It's crazy that we all go along like nothing's happening. My biggest fear is that we go too far and HAVE to geo-engineer the atmosphere.

I'm reading a book now called Oil and Ice - about how good we were at decimating whales and walruses to get our oil - the beginning of the addiction.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 28, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
To think that it all started by boiling down whales to fire shitty little lamps! It's almost too poetically perfect to be true
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:02am PT
Are we really to believe that the same knowledge and data that enabled scientists to split the atom, produce the computer, map the human genome, and navigate the solar system, has somehow gotten it wrong about the effects of carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere? That seems unlikely.
http://thetyee.ca/News/2013/01/31/Climate-Change-Course-7/
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 1, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Good to see he dosn't mince words with "stone age" republicans:


Energy Secretary Steven Chu Resigns, Chastises Climate Deniers And Clean-Energy Critics

In a wide-ranging and sometimes defiant letter to staff announcing his resignation on Friday, Energy Secretary Steven Chu, while highlighting his agency's achievements over the last four years, blasted critics of the administration's investment in the renewable energy market, suggesting that opponents were living in the "Stone Age."

"In the last two years, the private sector, including Warren Buffett, Bank of America, Wells Fargo and Google, have announced major investments in clean energy," Chu wrote. "Originally skeptical lenders and investors now see that renewable energy will [be] profitable. These investors are voting where it counts the most -- with their wallet."

The department's support of solar power in particular has been at the the heart of Republican attacks on Chu's tenure as energy secretary -- particularly his oversight of clean-energy incentive and subsidy programs created or expanded under President Barack Obama's 2009 stimulus package, which counted among their beneficiaries the failed solar firm Solyndra.

But in his salutary epistle to DOE staff, Chu waved off those criticisms as willfully blind to the larger successes these various programs delivered -- and to the nation's obligation to continue pursuing them.

"While critics try hard to discredit the program, the truth is that only one percent of the companies of the companies we funded went bankrupt. That one percent has gotten more attention than the 99 percent that have not," Chu said. "The test for America’s policy makers will be whether they are willing to accept a few failures in exchange for many successes. America’s entrepreneurs and innovators who are leaders in global clean energy race understand that not every risk can –- or should –- be avoided."

Quoting Michelangelo, Chu added, "'The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.'"

News of Chu's planned departure had begun circulating even before Obama's re-inauguration last month. But Friday's memo to staff by the highly-regarded physicist and Nobel Laureate -- among the longest-serving energy secretaries -- was disappointing to may advocates for rapid development of the clean-energy sector as a crucial part of the fight against climate change.

"Secretary Chu has led the Energy Department at a time when our nation made the single largest investment ever in clean energy and doubled our use of renewables," said Gene Karpinski, the president of the League of Conservation Voters, in a prepared statement. "He has proven himself to be one of the world’s greatest scientists and an ally in the fight against climate change."

Matthew Stepp, a senior policy analyst with the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation, echoed that sentiment in an email Friday afternoon. "While there is still significant work to be done, no one can deny that the Department of Energy is better equipped today to develop and commercialize breakthrough clean energy technologies than four years ago. The Secretary should be applauded for continuing and strengthening the long American legacy of leadership in developing world-leading technologies which now includes shale gas, advanced solar, wind energy, and next-generation batteries."

Chu's term at DOE was often tumultuous, however, and he was a frequent target of criticism from Republicans in Congress or their patrons among legacy fossil fuel interests, business groups, climate skeptics or free-market think tanks -- many of whom saw Chu as the embodiment of what they consider the administration's wasteful support of expensive or underperforming energy technologies.

Republicans grilled Chu last year as part of a lengthy investigation into Solyndra and the $535 million loan guarantee it received from the Department of Energy.

"This is disgusting. This happened under your nose," Steve Scalise, a Louisiana Republican, told Chu at a House Energy and Commerce committee hearing in late 2011. "I'll hope you'll go back to your agency and have some heads roll."

A year-long probe into the Solyndra loan found that while the deal's approval may have been hasty, no evidence of wrongdoing or, as many administration critics suggested, political favoritism in pushing the loan out the door, was ever turned up.

Still, Chu's detractors did not mince words on Friday. "Good riddance," declared the Climate Depot blog in response to Chu's announced departure. The site is run by the right-wing Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow, which aggressively challenges basic climate science.

Daniel Kish, the senior vice president of the free-market Institute for Energy Research, appeared to blame the energy secretary for worsening the recession.

"Under his watch, energy consumption in the United States declined by 2.24 percent while our leading economic competitor, China, increased energy consumption by 28 percent," Kish said in a statement published to the IER website. "Similarly, GDP growth in the United States has limped along at the anemic annual rate of 0.6 percent while China’s economy has soared at the annual rate of 9.12 percent, more than 15 times our own. Clearly, the policies and priorities of Steven Chu’s energy department have benefitted our global competitors and intensified the economic pain felt by millions of unemployed Americans."

But such sentiments were in the minority, and many commenters saluted Chu's oversight of billions of dollar in efficiency and clean-energy investments.

"The programs that he supervised during his tenure, like the SunShot initiative, advanced energy research, and the Weatherization Assistance Program, have kept America on the map in the competitive global marketplace and protected middle-class families from rising energy costs," said Carol M. Browner, former director of the White House office of Energy and Climate Change Policy and now a senior fellow at the left-leaning Center for American Progress. "The next secretary of energy must maintain Chu’s dogged focus on using all of the Energy Department’s tools in the fight against climate change -- especially its financial resources and significant convening power."

Indeed, Chu concluded his letter by taking aim at those who dismiss the nation's obligation to foster cleaner forms of energy in order to begin curbing greenhouse gas emissions tied to fossil-fuel use, and the attending rise of global temperatures. The basic science behind climate change and humanity's contribution to it, Chu said, is clear and unequivocal. And while the rate of that warming -- and its precise impacts in coming decades -- cannot be known with certainty, the risks of inaction are large.

"Ultimately we have a moral responsibility to the most innocent victims of adverse climate change. Those who will suffer the most are the people who are the most innocent: the world’s poorest citizens and those yet to be born," Chu added. "There is an ancient Native American saying: 'We do not inherit the land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.' A few short decades later, we don’t want our children to ask, 'What were our parents thinking? Didn’t they care about us?'"
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 6, 2013 - 08:46pm PT

[quote]BY PETE MCMARTIN, VANCOUVER SUN COLUMNIST FEBRUARY 6, 2013 7:02 PM


A little after 4 p.m. today, members of an environmental youth group called Kids for Climate Action will march on the Port Metro Vancouver offices at Canada Place.

They’ll be demonstrating against the doubling of coal exports at Neptune Terminals on the North Shore and the proposed expansion of coal exports from Fraser Surrey Docks on the Fraser River.

“Coal kills,” the group’s Facebook message reads. “It’s the most carbon intensive, climate change causing fossil fuel — by definition, not sustainable. In late 2012, a proposal was put forward to expand coal exports out of Vancouver by 14 million tonnes. This would mean that Vancouver would export 100 million tonnes of CO2 in coal per year, more than six times what we emit as a city or one and a half times what we emit as an entire province ... This will hardly give us the reputation of ‘greenest city in the world.’”

I know: How charmingly earnest. Kids, right? They don’t have to make a living, pay taxes, put themselves through school. They don’t know the compromises with which adults live. The real world has yet to test their altruism.

How undeniable that is. Their naiveté will crumble under the wheel of capitalism’s implacable mechanics. The kids are going to do their little march and take on King Coal? Good luck with that. Children’s crusades do not have a history of going well, at least for the children.

But if you are a parent, you have to worry about the future we are bequeathing them, or the future you are bequeathing your children’s children. Among those pressing day-to-day obligations of bill-paying and putting food on the table, there is the sublimated and much greater worry always there, the one that nags like a bad conscience and wonders: Apres moi, le deluge, literally? A too-hot world? A legacy of environmental horror?

On the other hand — and there’s always an other hand, isn’t there? — we keep those future nightmares at bay with what we like to believe is our hard-headed practicality. We know what’s what. We’re grounded in the present. We need jobs. We need industry to ensure our continued affluence — not to mention your tuition, junior. We need oil and coal, whether you like it or not. It’s the real world.

It’s also our default position when we wish to deflect the difficulty of making tough choices — the cynic’s excuse for immobility, or for the mere fact that he or she does not wish to have their privileged lives disturbed in any way.

But will that kind of lazy thinking have a future?

Increasingly, I’d suggest, no. Consider, for example, the revelation that came out of the federal auditor general’s office this week.

From Sun Ottawa correspondent Peter O’Neil’s story:

“The Harper government’s disaster planning has not kept pace with proposals to greatly expand oilsands exports from B.C. ports using supertankers, Canada’s environment commissioner said Tuesday.

“Scott Vaughan said in a report that the number of tanker trips from the West Coast will increase to 2,400 a year from 600 in 2010 because of increased exports of natural gas and oilsands crude via proposed pipelines to B.C. from Alberta ... But Vaughan said the government only has management plans, training and equipment for oil spills of up to 10,000 tonnes. That’s a vastly smaller spill than the potential spill from the supertankers expected to come to B.C., some holding up to 300,000 tonnes.”

Which is to say, after all the assurances from the federal government that it had the situation well in hand and that it was prepared for any exigency, its own environment commissioner called bull----, and affirmed what every single critic of the Northern Gateway pipeline (and of the proposed Trans Mountain pipeline through Vancouver harbour) has been saying:

We aren’t ready. We’re proceeding carelessly. We’re putting jobs before the environment at any cost, because we’re supposed to be practical and hard-headed, and know what we’re doing.

Well, no, by the sounds of it, we don’t.

This isn’t a screed against development. We are all invested in the economy. None of us is exempt.

But it isn’t just our environment we’re in danger of poisoning; it’s the social discourse. Government’s air of paternalism in these matters, manifested here by its loathsome demonization of B.C. environmentalists, is an insult. And we can no longer rationalize away the moral and environmental consequences of our exports on the flimsy excuse that our jurisdiction ends at the water’s edge, as Port Metro Vancouver has done in the case of coal exports. If we’re eager to reap the rewards of globalism, then we should recognize we have global responsibilities.

The conversation has to change.

What does it say of us that at 4 p.m. today, it will be coming out of the mouths of babes?

pmcmartin@vancouversun.com

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Pete+McMartin+present+their+future/7928982/story.html#ixzz2KBYRHS9O[/quote]
abrams

Sport climber
Feb 6, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
trolling Bruce? Coal is the next best thing humans have ever found next to pizza. Its energy, its spill proof unlike oil and if the Earth did not want us to burn it it never would have been created.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 6, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
all good points abram. I think I have a good slogan for Big Coal - kick a kid for coal!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
abrams: Its energy, its spill proof unlike oil and if the Earth did not want us to burn it it never would have been created.

After a long history of catastrophic fly ash spills you might want to rethink that one...









climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 9, 2013 - 09:17am PT
Messages 7121 - 7140 of total 10834 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
Gear Finder
Go
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews