Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 8, 2013 - 07:25am PT
As before in geologic history the biota will rise to the occasion and scrub this small fractional increase. The good news is that the oceans may be doing a better job of absorbing atmospheric CO2 than many assumed.

Where are you getting this data? I'd like to read it.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 8, 2013 - 07:34am PT
Good one. Ocean acidification is responsible for the deposition of the oil and gas source rock shales that result in oil and gas accumulations.

Most excellent! We can make some more oil - so much for all that peak oil nonsense.

So this takes what...... a few years or something? We will not be unduly inconvenienced by this acid thing?

If we are feeling particularly altruistic, could we individually contribute to this process?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 8, 2013 - 08:02am PT
I meant "Good one" as a compliment. Most people don't dig deep enough into climate to understand paleoclimate, its mechanisms, and its evidence.

90% of what we do is understand how a particular rock was deposited.

It is indeed an odd thing. The very thing that we may be causing is what sourced the hydrocarbons in the first place.

I have a very fatalistic view of what we are doing to the planet. Most people don't understand, and half of those who do understand try every method in the world to discount it.

Pretty funny post on landmines and the militaries in general. Our nation is now steered by the military industrial complex. Now we have a new one: the NSA had so much new work tossed on its shoulders after 9-11 that we have a secrecy industrial complex. If any government spends money, the congressmen or representatives will try to keep those plants and jobs open, even if the military says no thank you. Recently the military said that they didn't need any more tanks at the moment. The Right Wing rep and the deficit hawk senator from that state went nuts.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 8, 2013 - 08:11am PT
Another Nickname:

You are referring to methane hydrates. Go google it up and report back in a week and tell us what you learned. Seriously. People need to go out and read the raw intel. Meaning published papers.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 8, 2013 - 08:31am PT
I always forget to insert little smiley faces. I was doing my best "non reality based" impression.

But seriously, as obviously ridiculous an interpretation of the facts as it is, I think it does represent well the inherent fatal flaw in inexpert dabbling in a field demanding a high order of expertise. It is a well established phenomena. The problem is not in understanding how a graph works, or understanding the meaning of technical terminology etc. The problem, especially when dealing with a subject that involves probabilistic dtermination, is the weighting of factors. The inexpert can take inconsequential factors and ascribe great importance to them, and vice versa. Throw a little cognitive bias in there, as well as a percieved right to "equality through wisdom" and you get a loose cannon on deck.

That is level one disease in the avalanche business. Who needs an avalanche buletin when I can just put on my X Ray vision glasses and make my own assessment?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 8, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Seems their was an extreme event some 55.8 million years ago, a super volcanic eruption in the north Atlantic that apparently triggered a massive methane hydrate release from the sea floor. Upon reaching the atmosphere the methane hydrate oxidized to CO2 and released water vapor. The ocean went far more acidic than the measly .1 variation of ph level just released to the public with breathless hysteria typical of the compliant press. During this event the microorganisms shells didn't all dissolve, they moved, adapted and evolved. Their are also classes of bacteria and microorganisms known as acidophiles that thrive in warm acidic water as well as Algae blooms. The increased oceanic CO2 content was disolved in the ocean in huge quantity and at lesser depths and permanently sequestered on the sea floor by submarine weathering processes in `100,000 years.

Can any of you, produce any kind of document showing consensus with IPCC findings with signatures of the overwhelming majority of Earth scientists that you keep referring to ? I think not.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
May 8, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Where are you getting this data?I would like to read it.

yes,please,i am a poor thinker with a rigid position.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 9, 2013 - 06:15am PT
brought to you buy the guys doing the worest offending

gee,
wonder why opposition to them dont even get one fair look at a candidate with an agenda actually opposed to them?


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 9, 2013 - 07:09am PT
I think i will go out on a limb here and do a little non expert forecasting of my own. I suspect that Rick will seize upon this:

the referees of the papers decide those papers don't meet the standard for the field. The editors take those inputs from the referees and, in competitive journals, usually won't publish a paper that gets a multiply bad review, assuming more than one referee is involved.

and assume, due largely to an ideological bias but also due to a wild overconfidence in his grasp and understanding of the system of governance involved, that this statement indicates a system wide conspiracy based on ....

Which is an interesting question. Based on what? If he really had a case that the natural sciences community was rife with corruption one would think there his a historical record to support such a culture. So of course I googled it. A search of a "history of corruption in science" brought up a page almost entirely devoted to corruption in politics and business, which is interesting when you think about it.

Fortunately there was this: http://www.wanttoknow.info/corruptioninsciencenewsarticles



I can't vouch for the veracity or comprehensive scope of its examples of corruption in the sciences but if largely true it is again rather interesting that all of the examples have to do with either government or big business (oil, pharma, agriculture, chemical.....) providing the corrupting incentive to the science community. I did not note a single example of corruption driven by the science community attempting to secure community managed research grants. One example that had anything to do with climate science was this:


Bribes offered to scientists
2007-02-03, Sydney Morning Herald (Australia's leading newspaper)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/bribes-offered-to-scientists/2007/02/0...

Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine the UN climate change report. Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute, an ExxonMobil-funded think tank with close links to the Bush Administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of the report. Travel expenses and additional payments were also offered. The institute has received more than $1.6 million from ExxonMobil - which yesterday announced a $50 billion annual profit, the biggest ever by a US company - and more than 20 of its staff have worked as consultants to the Bush Administration. A former head of ExxonMobil, Lee Raymond, is the vice-chairman of the institute's board of trustees.


So again, if there is one thing any tom, dick or harry can claim some half assed level of expertise to just through having survived life for a few decades it is the ability to reason and the ability to understand human nature. Under both terms it is not reasonable by dint of either evidence or knowledge that corruption in the science community would be suspected more favorably than corruption in the other relevant parties.

If such a suspicion persists, the only logical reason to drive it is ideology.... or perhaps rank stupidity, possibly both.

Case fuking closed, for now anyway.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 9, 2013 - 10:45am PT
Notes from a workshop on "emerging issues in Arctic research" that just wrapped up yesterday:

Pretty much all the active scientists know that climate is changing, especially in the Arctic, that changes are getting faster, and moving toward a state the planet has not seen in a very long time (which we probably won't like). You can't not recognize the signs if you work there.

But some changes not so much on the radar five or ten years back are looking bigger as newer data emerge.
 Ocean acidification at high latitudes and its impacts on ecosystems and major fisheries;
 Impacts of Arctic change on mid-latitude weather;
 Impacts of more intense resource development, transportation and new populations in areas where no infrastructure or rescue/disaster capabilities exist;
 Invasive species, notably pathogens carried in ballast water of ships.

On the bright side, it might be that polar bears and bowhead whales (though not narwhal) are faring better than expected.
abrams

Sport climber
May 9, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Albedo change in the Arctic linked to fossil fuel burning by the exploding high latitude human population is a crock. My mid latitude barbeque is 100% responsible and you can come and arrest it anytime except Saturday evenings when I'm cooking steaks.


wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
May 9, 2013 - 11:55am PT
http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus
My father was an engineer with Bell Aerospace,he worked on all the Apollo missions.What do they know ?
You are right,its only 97%.
abrams

Sport climber
May 9, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Global warming keeping fields frozen well into spring preventing farmers from planting crops.


Corn planting progressed a bit last week, moving up 7 points
from the week before to 12% planted overall.
The five-year average is 47% planted, and last year the
overall corn planting progress was 69% at this time.

from
http://cornandsoybeandigest.com/corn/may-6-2013-crop-progress-report-corn-12-planted-soybean-planting-started

another nickname

Social climber
Yazoo Ms
May 9, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Y'all might want to read this by Princeton physics guy Freeman Dyson:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2008/jun/12/the-question-of-global-warming/?pagination=false

Or you could just read this dooded-up NYT interview he did about above item:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html?_r=0


Also, you should be more aware of this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/05/what-if-we-never-run-out-of-oil/309294/
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 9, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Bruce what the hell are you doing now-it looks like arguing with yourself brother.

Anothernickname- good one their with Dyson. Actually many many of the most esteemed scientists in the world have seperated themselves from the lunacy of the CAGW crowd. Ed's first list of organizations is B.S.- the few head honchos misspeaking for the whole.

Ed, man come to your senses seperate yourself from the catastrophists-you know in your heart and intellect that the whole thing was overhyped and its time to go neutral before the ship sinks beneath the waves.

To reiterate; The northern hemisphere is cooling The coldest temperatures ever recorded in the history of the northern hemisphere was this winter in Siberia at 96.1 degrees below zero. 19 of the 20 official weather stations in Alaska have recorded an average of 2.4 degrees cooling over the last 12 years. The most new sea ice in history was formed this winter in the arctic.The majority of Europe and Asia are coming off the second of two severe winters this one the longest in many decades. The measly .1 decrease in ph announced with hysteria this week is less than its amount of variation as measured in widespread locales. We are at the point in the Milankovitch cycles when a slow decline should begin to end this interglacial period and begin a slow return to the ice age.The sun (according to some highly respected astrophysicists) is entering into a period of quiescense that might rival the Maunder minimum of the little ice age.Antartica is in a slight cooling trend and more ice is being added to the eastern continent than has been lost in the arctic by some accounts.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
May 9, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Ed, man come to your senses seperate yourself from the catastrophists-you know in your heart and intellect that the whole thing was overhyped and its time to go neutral before the ship sinks beneath the waves.


I have been involved in a number of blogs the last few years and have not come across this term 'Catastrophists' that Rick uses. A little searching showing that it has theological origins;

Catastrophism has always been an important part of creationist geology.
catastrophism n. Geology . The doctrine that major changes in the earth's crust result from catastrophes rather than evolutionary processes.

-you know in your heart and intellect that the whole thing was overhyped

How does Rick know what is in the heart and intellect of others? I suggest he only knows what is in his his heart and intellect.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 9, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
I invented the term myself McHale. By the way i'm thinking about a study of the physchology of catastrophists. Would any of you gentleman care to answer a few questions: 1. Were you castigated as being nerds in grade school. 2. Do you have children. 3. Do you feel rejected and ignored by society.4. Do you own a handgun or semi_automatic assault style weapon. 5. Have you been abducted and abused by aliens. etc.

Anothernickname- Google Global Warming Petition Project. You'll find a site that rejects the findings of the so called "Consensus". To date it has almost 31,500 signatures of american scientists alone. Note: their are additional thousands of scientists worldwide also in disagreement with the catastrophists.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
May 9, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Were you castigated as being nerds in grade school. 2. Do you have children. 3. Do you feel rejected and ignored by society.4. Do you own a handgun or semi_automatic assault style weapon. 5. Have you been abducted and abused by aliens. etc.


You are projecting again.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
May 9, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Would any of you gentleman answer a few questions.

you answered them by asking them.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 9, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
god damn it

refute the science and just the science and forget this gun and children unrelated stuff

I would like to read Rick's specific point by point peer reviewed work that refutes the science itself behind global warming, with or without human involvement, and not Rick's personal opinion because well, that is worthless to this discussion

by the way, it is really really weak to put forth the idea that because it is right now a little cold in the corn belt that that somehow negates the brutal price rise in all the US grain markets last summer when record, repeat record heat and draught ruined the crops

that analogy is like saying I own a bad and vicious Schnauzer, therefore all Schnauzers are bad and violent dogs

what is this, grade school?
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