Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
No such thing as a VEGEN that does not insist on organic

I said vegetarian...... And I did say 'if we all became vegetarian'. There's no f*#king way 7 billion and more will be eating 'organic'.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 2, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Anyway, if you take into account the orbital and axial cycles, the fact we came out of a grand minima of solar activity coinciding with the little ice age, to the mid to late 20th century grand maxima of solar activity, then throw in fluctuations of oceanic cycles of differing frequency you can easily explain the 0.7 c global temp increase of the 20th century with only a feeble anthropogenic contribution.

This seems like you're leaving it as an exercise to the reader. That would be fine if we all had a background in this area. Hell it's typical in textbooks given that the reader has the appropriate background.

HOWEVER, very few of us here are climate scientists. For those of us that don't would/could you please fill in the details especially since you claim one can
easily explain
this? I'd like to see it spelled out with things that someone with a good undergraduate science background should be able to understand - equations, their basis, their solutions, and reasons for approximations used. Additionally if the approximations or equations are non standard please rigorously justify this. Lets say you keep it to a multivariate calculus level (you claimed it was easy, even implied trivial).

Since you claim it can be done easily you should be able to put it together as simple lecture notes in less than an hour or so...Sh#t if it's that trivial this shouldn't take you more than 15 minutes...Unless you can't, and then I wonder what that means?

kev
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Chief, I think Bruce is on your side more than you realize. You could argue with a rock.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
yeah - you have a problem with that?

Wow, there are a lot of shoulder chips on this thread! I asked a very neutral question and it's assumed I'm against a progressive agenda.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
What's a vegen?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:06pm PT

Wow, there are a lot of shoulder chips on this thread!

What, did you think you could change the atmosphere around here? Here, you round-up to the lowest common denominator......and you don't want to show'em your chalk!
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Don't know about a vegen but I'm pro PETA - People Enthusiastically Tasting Animals! Meet is murder. Yummy, yummy, murder...

Sorry I couldn't resist :)

And is vegin a special gin?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
What, did you think you could change the atmosphere around here?

Nope. Just survive it. It's a little like Jack Warner's paper mill on the Black Warrior at times!


;>)
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Yummy, yummy, murder...

But in order to lower the costs of living for the 7 billion plus, that doesn't calculate. I hate to think cow pies will be a thing of the past. It's enough of a reason to de-populate now. I think quite a bit about cattle grazing in pastures and think that if nobody ate them.....well, they would have any life at all. Feedlots? Don't need no stinkin feedlots!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
and I would suspect most point to greater progressivism in the economic sphere.

I took it as though he was being positive about progressivism. The only alternative is Soylent Green.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
No such thing as a VEGEN that does not insist on organic

More manufactured bullsh#t from Da Chief.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Using the contemporary 'just in time' process of putting things together.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Somewhere in there Chief, if I really put my mind to it, I could find where you are arguing against your own best interests.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
I'm not assuming too much. I mean that in a positive way. You are OK in my book! Hey, I just found my bike shorts and am going for a spin. Later!
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 2, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Please show me ONE VEGAN CERT'd product that is not also GMO Free Cert'd as well.

Vegan foods don't need to be certified 'vegan'.

Didya know that conventional apples and oranges are vegan foods? Do they need to be certified 'vegan'?

GMO corn, soybeans and papayas are vegan.

Jebus you are stupid Chief.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Please show me ONE VEGAN CERT'd product that is not also GMO Free Cert'd as well.

Look at that... the chuffer centering his drivel on some CERT process... ones he knows absolutely nothing about. How surprising.

http://www.vegangmo.com/?page_id=655
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 2, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Repost AKA Still waiting the R. Sumner reply

Anyway, if you take into account the orbital and axial cycles, the fact we came out of a grand minima of solar activity coinciding with the little ice age, to the mid to late 20th century grand maxima of solar activity, then throw in fluctuations of oceanic cycles of differing frequency you can easily explain the 0.7 c global temp increase of the 20th century with only a feeble anthropogenic contribution.

This seems like you're leaving it as an exercise to the reader. That would be fine if we all had a background in this area. Hell it's typical in textbooks given that the reader has the appropriate background.

HOWEVER, very few of us here are climate scientists. For those of us that don't would/could you please fill in the details especially since you claim one can
easily explain
this? I'd like to see it spelled out with things that someone with a good undergraduate science background should be able to understand - equations, their basis, their solutions, and reasons for approximations used. Additionally if the approximations or equations are non standard please rigorously justify this. Lets say you keep it to a multivariate calculus level (you claimed it was easy, even implied trivial).

Since you claim it can be done easily you should be able to put it together as simple lecture notes in less than an hour or so...Sh#t if it's that trivial this shouldn't take you more than 15 minutes...Unless you can't, and then I wonder what that means?

kev
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 2, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Grow your own fukin food. That way you know where it comes from. Hunt, fish, provide for yourself. GMO my ass. If you rely on others to provide for your existence, you have no room to bitch
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
In reply to JGill's question about how the poor and middle class will pay for potential carbon taxes:
the best way is to reduce income taxes (on earned income only) so the new tax is not a new tax at all; it is revenue neutral.
Earlier I said in my opinion it would be revenue neutral; I meant it "should" be revenue neutral. That is the only way it could get through Congress anyway, since it removes the argument that it's a "new" tax.

Should we subsidize fossil fuel for anyone?: Absolutely NOT. Subsidies for special groups just ruin a simple system, people will game the system, just like carbon credits. Fuel users will need to examine the many ways to cope, and stop depending on it. We can phase in the additional fuel tax over a few years.

We do need to be aware of the offshoring of fossil fuel use. If countries such as China do not follow our lead on such a tax within 3 years, we will have to add a fossil fuel equalizer tax to all imports from such countries. That is how a workable world treaty on greenhouse gases would have to be written.

There are many ways that we could save fuel, esp in the long run. Batteries continue to improve yearly. Use in vehicles for now, and once they get even cheaper they can store the power from the solar on rooftops.
http://www.electronicproducts.com/Power_Products/Batteries_and_Fuel_Cells/Engineers_build_lithium-ion_battery_able_to_last_27_years.aspx

Another energy storage technology:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/07/130702-compressed-air-storage-for-wind-energy
Not sure how efficient it is, but it's better than throwing excess wind energy away.

Heating oil is not a great use for oil. Build a natural gas pipeline and tax it.
Right now gasoline is so cheap that many people drive gas hogs. Most of the world drives miserly vehicles that never make it to the USA, because we won't buy many.
A typical midsize sedan today: 3300 lbs, 4 cylinder with 185 mpg, 0-60 in 7.4 sec. In 1984 a Honda Accord was about 2000 lbs, 84 hp, slow.
Today a typical 4 cylinder turbo car has 210-300 hp,
and numerous American modern muscle cars have over 400 hp.
People commute to their desk job in V8 trucks meant to pull 10000 lb toys (and that does not include heavy duty trucks that pull 20000 lbs).

More expensive fuel will help to stop subsidizing sprawl and car based living. Carpooling and E-bikes will get more popular. Road rage will decrease.
Expensive for now, but a good example for the future - VW XL1 to get about 260 mpg. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/volkswagen-xl1-concept-first-drive-review
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Sick 'em, Ed!!

It is easy pickings on this thread. There are always crank websites ready to lead you through the passages of bad science.

If anyone wants to understand the difference between good science and bad science, buy Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.

I can't say enough good things about that book. I wish Largo would read it, but that is asking a bit much.

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