Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Which axis... magnetic or rotationic?


The Earth's rotational axis.

I believe the magnetic axis undulates fairly significantly over time
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Now answer part B.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
The ecliptic is earth's path around the sun, Herr Professor...

My next question...is the cyclic meandering of the ecliptic a big factor in onset and waning of ice ages?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
is the cyclic meandering of the ecliptic a big factor in onset and waning of ice ages?

You mean the eccentricity of the orbit? Potentially, but the Chuff wasn't there so nobody can be certain.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
What ever you say, you're the expert on dicks.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
You mean the eccentricity of the orbit?


I mean the 2.5 degrees variation in axial tilt. The greater the tilt the more extreme the seasonal heat and cold. Would the greatest axial tilt to the ecliptic be enough to cause polar ice sheets to advance or would the heat of summers offset that trend?

2.5 degrees doesn't seem like very much but could be more significant than most of the public would assume.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
Just have a few minutes during lunch and before im back to work. I asked some questions about solar variation/flares and axial tilt as regards to anomalies in the jet stream we have recently witnessed in the mid to high lattitudes.The CAGW people would have you believe the cause is anthropogenic, but the truth is a bit more complicated. Earths axial tilt varies over a 42000 year cycle from 22.1 to 24.5 degrees from the plane of eliptic. Currently we are at 23.4 degrees and decreasing.The relevance of that is obvious as for glacial/interglacial epochs but not so clear as regards to changes in the jet stream. The suns variability effect on the jet stream is much more obviuous. See link (one of many) below.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8412297_solar-flare-effects-jet-stream.html
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Would the greatest axial tilt to the ecliptic be enough to cause polar ice sheets to advance or would the heat of summers offset that trend?

How can there be a greates axial tilt when "Earth's axial tilt doesn't change?" (just making sure we are on the same page)

I calculated it once and I think it was secondary or tertiary, elliptial eccentricity having the biggest potential influence.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 25, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
How can there be a greates axial tilt when "Earth's axial tilt doesn't change?" (just making sure we are on the same page)

I calculated it once and I think it was secondary or tertiary, elliptial eccentricity having the biggest potential influence.



I think we ARE on the same page, Wes. I wasn't aware of the quavering of the ecliptic relative to the Earth's rotational axis (must have been sleeping in Planetary Astronomy 103). Gloat if you will...

I was thinking the Earths rotational axis was ordained in the collision and merge events with a Mars size planet over four billion years ago...and that a change in the axis without another major cataclysm would violate the conservation of angular momentum.

Yes, you're correct... there is undulation in the plane of earths orbit relative to Earth's axis. So, in effect, Earth's axial tilt does have a cyclic variation.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
So, in effect the axial tilt does have a cyclic variation.

Yes. And what is the periodicity?
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Great programs this past week on the history of the earth...incredible how many extinction events there have been and how most we're due to climate change...with different reasons for the change...asteroids, ocean cycle being disrupted, etc...one of the scientists made a comment that the previous events were never caused by a species...
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Intact ecosystems have a way of self-regulating. Changes in those systems are often gradual, kept in check by the other components.

Over consumption of any resource leads to a crash. Plants know it, so they regulate their water use in arid climates. Predators know it, so they don't often kill everything they can just because they can. A well fed mtnloin is far less dangerous than a hungry one.

There appears to be only one small segment of one species that doesn't quite get it. It is almost as if they think the Earth is God's gift to them, as opposed to the only known planet life can inhabit.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Yes. And what is the periodicity?


A mean period of 41,040 years. The locus of precession modifies the interval somewhat...

And, NO! I'm not taking it with equanimity and grace. Grrr! I blaming every moonstruck Astronomy professor in the hemisphere ! (sob!)
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Nah, sh#t... I say we burn all our coal. I don't want to spend another $50 on electricity. Not worth it. Better to spend that money on a pizza and a movie. I'm sure SOMEONE will find another energy source soon enough.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Chief, your stereotyping is Dull.
But it is interesting how people often like to harp on what appear to be (easy) contradictions, rather than focusing and working on real solutions to the main issues, which will always involve (difficult) tradeoffs.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 25, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Got no heartburn with that particular dam coming down. But there is no plan for one to replace it. Where is the water going to be stored when the rains come for the populace of the surrounding areas? Where does/is the water going to come from to supply those masses?

Rick, if you read the articles about the dam, you'll find out that it is not used for water supply, nor does it hold back water any longer as it has filled with sediment.

But then, that wouldn't be trolling! :-) I think they're onto you here. Maybe try another thread?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:15am PT
Yes, same people Chief. They live in LaLa land, must think the power is spontaneousl generated in the receptacle. Take away their comforts though and watch them howl.

Ed give me a little credit man. Im considerably beyond the level of those links. As for the frequent magnetic reversals; its not the flip that hurts but rather the severe weakening of the field leading up to the reversal that compromises our magnetic shield wreaking all sorts of havoc atmospherically as well as other effects like increased genetic mutation rates.Could it connected to the influences responsible for our orbital/axial variability-is there a point of pronounced phase change in those cycles?

A lot of people on this thread, even some scientists, have a poor grasp of Earths orbital mechanics, causes, effects, cycles, chaotic events. If they dont understand this i dont know how they can qualify themselves in Climate Change 101.

Now what about the bet we werw talking and the parameters of judging.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:18am PT
I think I'm with you Chief on the dams for water thing. I think about that quite a bit. Short of having snow pack, and with all the people.... It's interesting how overpopulation is driving many of our problems, giving license to corporations like Monsanto to come up with wrong solutions. When are people going to face the REAL problem?

Rick is an orbital mechanics expert now? No LOL needed!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:20am PT
Stick a big hose to B.C. and let LA suck them dry-ha Bruce?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:24am PT
What do you think about the idea that Earth may be getting overpopulated Rick? That, at least in terms of preserving something or our 'old' Earth's heritage. I'm sure we can evolve to where we live in cages like chickens, but do we want to do that? Are we going to become slaves to the wrong stuff? Do we have control of our future?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Meme_Machine
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