Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 24, 2014 - 10:42am PT
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years to you all.



It is 60f here today,a new record ,but , why keep track.......[according to a Dingus].
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Dec 24, 2014 - 10:44am PT
Et tu, wilbeer, et tu?

DMT
raymond phule

climber
Dec 24, 2014 - 11:15am PT

Are you denying reality again Raymond? Please show us the definitive studies showing the anthropogenic portion of CO2 release exceeds the single digits percentage of the total.

So what really do you want me to show? That the "extra" 100 ppm or so of CO2 in the atmosphere is caused by humans or that only a few percent of the CO2 in the carbon cycle is due to human emissions?

My understanding of your claims are that you just don't understand the meaning of what you claim.

Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 24, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
No snow: more than 85% of Canadians can expect a ‘green’ Christmas
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/no-snow-more-than-85-of-canadians-can-expect-a-green-christmas-1.2162005
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 24, 2014 - 08:04pm PT


Raymond, I thought I made myself clear. PERCENT OF TOTAL. And while your at it please explain why exactly that the anthropogenic contribution would stay aloft indefinitely. I think the jury is out on the capacity of the sinks. One thing is clear; temp changes always precede CO2 changes, whether it is more or less.

Merry Christmas to all. We have decent skiable snow in the mountains but the valley floors are barely covered here in south central AK.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Dec 25, 2014 - 07:02am PT
Percent of total: Silly concept, since the carbon in the atmosphere is also a small percentage of total in the carbon cycle.

Indefinite time: Who claims that?

Temp always rise before CO2: Nope, Milankovitch cycle starts the temp rise, subsequent CO2 release from oceans continues the temp rise.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 25, 2014 - 07:35am PT

Raymond, I thought I made myself clear. PERCENT OF TOTAL.

Ok, so you say that something like 20 ppm is due to humans and something like 80 ppm in he steep rise is due to natural changes for some reasons? You claim that nothing unusual is happening with the climate but believe that the spike in co2 for same reason is natural.

The only thing that is clear is that you don't know what you are talking about.


And while your at it please explain why exactly that the anthropogenic contribution would stay aloft indefinitely. I think the jury is out on the capacity of the sinks. One thing is clear; temp changes always precede CO2 changes, whether it is more or less.

I think that you should read something about mass balance and equilibrium. You could think about a lake with rivers floating in and out of it and an extra source and see whats happening.

The last sentence is common among people like you but it is actually a really stupid claim. It can actually be both at the same time depending on what can be considered the input.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 25, 2014 - 07:44am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth%27s_atmosphere#mediaviewer/File:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

Rick, just to be clear.

So CO2 has not been higher than 300 for 400000 years. It has now increased about 100 ppm above the old high. So you say that 20 of those 100 ppm are due to humans and 80 are natural? So without humans we would right now be about 80 ppm above the old maximum even though nothing unnatural is happening with the climate according to you?

Your problem is still that you don't understand that a relatively small contribution to a system in equilibrium can result in a large change in the variables.

There is a lot of carbon that changes places in the nature every year and the human caused CO2 is only a small percent of the total carbon cycle. One interesting thing about this is that even though the amount of carbon involved is large it is in a natural equilibrium so that the CO2 in the atmosphere would be close to constant. If we now add co2 into the atmosphere about half of that amount stays in the atmosphere (or probably more correct adds to the co2 concentration in the atmosphere).

This is similar to having a lake with a river that adds 100 cubic meters every second and a river that subtracts 100 cubic meters every second. The volume of water in the lake would be constant even though a large volume of water flows in and out of it.

If we know add 1 cubic meter of water every second from another source, i.e. only 1% extra water, the lake would start to rise with 3600 cubic meters every day.

The reason for this is of course that we added the extra water even though that extra water was only 1% of the total flow into the lake.

You seems to be hang up on the fact that the co2 released into the atmosphere is only a small part of the co2 that is released into the atmosphere and you mistakenly believe that it means something that it doesn't mean.
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 25, 2014 - 09:28am PT
^ you are wasting your time, which is what he wants.

There is no point trying to educate someone who is deliberately posting nonsense, they know it is nonsense, they will never admit it is nonsense,
while their goals are to waste your time and make it look like there is a debate.

The best response is

I don't waste my time on deliberately stupid people.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 25, 2014 - 10:07am PT
Merry xmas Raymond.

Your lake/river analogy is lacking, the outlet would just flow at the extra 1 cms. Same with your larger point. Proxy reconstructions of atmospheric CO2 content don't have the resolution to detect short term spikes and with an average residency of five years they wouldn't be detected, therefore the claim of largest content In 400, 000 years may not be true.
Also the sinks capacities are not fixed or maxed out, increases like the planet greening 12% over the satellite era is proof of this. Another well known variable sink is in global ice mass. The planet has warmed from a small but long term solar output Increase coming out of the LIA, this has released CO2 sequestered in ice. A similar but opposite decrease in solar output would have the obvious effect of trapping atmospheric CO2. Same goes with the largest sink of all, the oceans. Warming seas release, cooling seas trap. The one constant is that temps always precede atmospheric CO2 changes. Finally I reject your notion that the planets climate system is in a delicate equillibrium. It might seek equillibrium, but it has never achieved that state. Just too many changing variables for that amigo.

raymond phule

climber
Dec 25, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Merry cristmas,


Your lake/river analogy is lacking, the outlet would just flow at the extra 1 cms.

Cool, I guess that the level of lakes never changes due to a higher inflow in your world. I am sure it does in my world though.


Same with your larger point. Proxy reconstructions of atmospheric CO2 content don't have the resolution to detect short term spikes and with an average residency of five years they wouldn't be detected, therefore the claim of largest content In 400, 000 years may not be true.

Another good example how you don't understand the meaning of what you read. The extra concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere don't disappear after 5 years even though a single CO2 molecule has a residence time of maybe 5 year.


Also the sinks capacities are not fixed or maxed out, increases like the planet greening 12% over the satellite era is proof of this. Another well known variable sink is in global ice mass. The planet has warmed from a small but long term solar output Increase coming out of the LIA, this has released CO2 sequestered in ice. A similar but opposite decrease in solar output would have the obvious effect of trapping atmospheric CO2. Same goes with the largest sink of all, the oceans. Warming seas release, cooling seas trap.

Interesting that this is happening right now over a 150 year period and that it cant be seen in any other records.


The one constant is that temps always precede atmospheric CO2 changes.

This is still a stupid claim.


Finally I reject your notion that the planets climate system is in a delicate equillibrium. It might seek equillibrium, but it has never achieved that state. Just too many changing variables for that amigo.

I tried to simplify the concept so that you in theory could understand it. A change of over 30 percent in a variable is much larger than has been seen in the last couple of thousands years.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 25, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Well Raymond, you do seem capable of learning after all as evidenced by the decrease of 398, 000 years for the claimed highest atmospheric CO2 content between your last couple of posts. Now, if you could put your rigid programmed ideology away long enough to stop your idiotic personal attacks, the fallacy of your claims might take traction in your brain.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 25, 2014 - 11:34am PT
of course, rick all of your assertions have been thoroughly pursued in research and don't pass the challenge of explaining the observations...

you've picked a few things that are "in the gaps" but even those have been investigated

the invariant here is that you will choose only those things that reaffirm your belief that nothing is happening...

best wishes to you and yours today in your warm Alaska.... even in this age of a solar minimum...
raymond phule

climber
Dec 25, 2014 - 11:52am PT

Well Raymond, you do seem capable of learning after all as evidenced by the decrease of 398, 000 years for the claimed highest atmospheric CO2 content between your last couple of posts. Now, if you could put your rigid programmed ideology away long enough to stop your idiotic personal attacks, the fallacy of your claims might take traction in your brain.

I just thought that it would be enough to mention the last couple of thousands years because I guess that we have less uncertainties for those years.

You talk about my idiotic personal attacks in the same sentence that you attack me. That seems like a strange thing to do. I don't even believe that I have personally attacked you in my last posts. I have just pointed out that you say the same incorrect things over and over again.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 25, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
Merry xmas to you as well Ed.

And no we are not yet in the age of solar minimum, as you are no doubt aware we are at the maximum of cycle 24. The drop from max will be precipitious, as is usual, but once we hit bottom the minimum will be more prolonged than weve seen in a 150 years. Combine this long minimum period with the projected weak max of cycle 25 and you have a good test of the " primarily solar" hypothesis. We shall see.

Exploiting gaps? Hell they are grand canyons running through the flat and monotonous plain of consensus AGW. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

The temps here in southcentral AK have been Iin the range of normal over the last week; teens to high twenties. Currently we have heavy snowfall and 27F at my place close to downtown Wasilla.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Following comprehensive survey, Chinese researchers warn drinking sources may dry up in much of Asia.

Glaciers in China are disappearing quickly, an environmental institute in Lanzhou confirmed on Wednesday.

Scientists with the Cold and Arid Regions Environmental and Engineering Research Institute conducted a lengthy survey of southern glaciers, which provide vital drinking water to India, and found that their total geographic area had decreased by 13 percent since 2002.

In the immediate future, the melting glaciers may release some amount of water, Liu Shiyin, who led the survey, told Science magazine. But any short-term effects "will be exhausted when glaciers disappear under a continuous warming," Liu said.

Science writes:

In 2002, Chinese scientists released the first full inventory of the country’s glaciers, the largest glacial area outside of Antarctica and Greenland. The data came from topographical maps and aerial photographs of western China’s Tibet and Xinjiang regions taken from the 1950s through the 1980s. That record showed a total glacial area of 59,425 square kilometers. The Second Glacier Inventory of China, unveiled here last week, is derived from high-resolution satellite images taken between 2006 and 2010. The data set is freely available online.

Liu and his colleagues calculated China’s total glacial area to be 51,840 square kilometers—13% less than in 2002.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 31, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Here's a nice list of suggested new years resolutions for warmists.

http://grist.org/living/10-new-years-resolutions-for-a-guilt-free-2015/

dirtbag

climber
Dec 31, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
^^^^Bitter old ignorant white dude, fearful of change and brown people.

Happy New Year anyway.^^^^^
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 31, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Bitter old ignorant white dude, fearful of change and brown people.
you forgot "short & fat"
;-)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
from the NYTimes OpEd page today...

Where Have All the Cod Gone?

"The recent ban on cod fishing in the Gulf of Maine was an important step toward restoration, though clearly marine systems are very complex and subject to many variables. Considering that ban in light of history, however, is crucial. Historical perspectives provide a vital sense of scale for the sobering restoration challenges we face.

The fisheries story, however, also provides a heading into the future, revealing as it does the tragic consequences of decision makers’ unwillingness to steer a precautionary course in the face of environmental uncertainties. At every step of the way, decisions could have been made to exploit fish stocks more sustainably. That’s a tale worth pondering."
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