Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 10, 2014 - 01:46pm PT


Accumulating Heat

The earth has warmed rapidly over the past century due mainly to human activity, and especially over the past few decades. The increased greenhouse effect has warmed the land and air and melted ice, but most of it (about 90%) has gone into heating the oceans. Several Skeptical Science contributors worked together to publish a scientific paper1 which combined the land, air, ice, and ocean warming data. It found that for recent decades the earth has been heating at a rate of 250 trillion Joules per second.

“Joules per second” is a difficult unit of measure to appreciate, and is especially foreign to people who are unfamiliar with science. This widget attempts to put that heating into terms that are easier to visualize. 250 trillion Joules per second is equivalent to:

Detonating four Hiroshima atomic bombs per second
Experiencing two Hurricane Sandys per second
Enduring four 6.0 Richter scale earthquakes per second
Being struck by 500,000 lightning bolts per second
Exploding more than eight Big Ben towers, with every inch packed full of dynamite, per second

http://4hiroshimas.com/





Gotta love it.




Wouldn't be a bit surprised if Kindergarten Boy FUKEDINTHEHEADMENTAL has something to do with this piece of fabulous work.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jan 10, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
Clean coal?


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/09/22245996-west-virginia-chemical-spill-cuts-water-to-up-to-300000-state-of-emergency-declared?lite


Hey, at least it smells like yummy licorice.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 10, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
For those like Chief who feel panicky about thermonuclear comparisons, here's a kinder, gentler way to put things.



That's from an article by Dana Nuccitelli in the Guardian, with a roundup of other images he brought home from last month's AGU meetings. One of these, from a talk by glaciologist Richard Alley on impacts of abrupt climate change, is something I had already mentioned upthread. It illustrates the logical failure of those very popular "Uncertainty! Therefore Do Nothing!" arguments.

The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 10, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
Now that is more attune to the reality of your ultimate goal LARRY.


Nice to see you applying that PhD in Sociology to good work.



Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 10, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Nice to see you applying that PhD in Sociology to good work.
It's even better than that, I'm providing an in-thread numeracy contest for entertainment. Who can understand this graph and describe in their own words what it shows? I'm pretty sure you can't, Chief, but go ahead and prove me wrong.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 10, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
With the one exception of raobcore ( whatever that is and however they adjusted the data) the ipcc graphs show the mid troposphere in a cooling trend and in some instances the stratosphere warming professor. So the ipcc wg1 weakens the case of the models and spm. Thanks for highlighting what the blogs are indicating.
raymond phule

climber
Jan 10, 2014 - 02:31pm PT

the ipcc graphs show the mid troposphere in a cooling trend

What is the definition of mid troposphere? The IPCC plots show a cooling trend for pressures lower than about 200hPa and that is about 12500 m. Sounds pretty high for mid troposphere(especially in all areas with a troposphere that ends at a lower altitude...)
raymond phule

climber
Jan 10, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
and in some instances the stratosphere warming professor.

I guess your problem is that you don't understand the y-scale that is often used in meteorology and climate science. The stratosphere is not warming in any of the graphs.

I also see that Lower troposphere, middle troposphere and lower stratosphere are included explicitly in the plots.


Thanks for highlighting what the blogs are indicating.

More like showing that the blog readers cant read graphs...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jan 10, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
The Troposphere (the air that we breathe and where airliners fly) extends to about 10km altitude (approx 36K feet). In other words the section of the atmosphere that directly affects our environment. The pressure at the top of the Troposphere is 250 hPa. About 1/2 of sea level pressure for reference. So now you can interpret the charts relative to the Troposphere.

So all the graphs that Ed posted on the previous page show warming all the way up the Troposphere. For each region of the earth. Certainly less in the southern Extra Tropics (southern oceans and Antarctica) than in northern latitudes.

Good info on the atmosphere here. Note the section on Physical Properties: pressure and thickness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere

But all this is quibbling about detail (yeah, the Devil's in the Details).

See Ed's Bonus Plot FAQ 2.1
Each of the graphs shows global warming in a different way. Land surface air, marine air, sea surface, troposphere temperatures. Ocean heat content, sea level rise (warm sea is less dense than cold sea), arctic sea ice extent, glacier mass.
This is the historical data.
Period.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 10, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
the ipcc graphs show the mid troposphere in a cooling trend and in some instances the stratosphere warming professor.
Strange but not surprising to see Rick's condescension toward Ed combined in a single sentence with his inability to read the graphs that Ed posted.

Thanks for highlighting what the blogs are indicating.
Accidental irony, I guess.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 10, 2014 - 03:17pm PT





Sorry dude (High Traverse) but it does not put out 145HP.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2010/09/10/yamaha-fz1-best-used-bikes/


Just another example of the bullshet that flooooooooooooows here.
raw

Mountain climber
Malibu
Jan 10, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Why do Leonardo DiCaprio and Richard Branson lecture us about carbon consumption while plotting trips to space?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304325004579296781320668314
TLP

climber
Jan 10, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
Rick, you can see from the past couple pages (1000 pages?) why I think that the tone and content of this thread is not enhanced by personalizing things. It would be better if every single post were relabeled with a random code, so that no one could tell whether the same person posted message #21345 and #21768. I bet we'd lose most of the stupid insult stuff in a hurry and find out what valid skepticism is out there and be able to discuss it objectively.

...exactly as High has done with regard to the troposphere graphs posted by Ed H. earlier. So far, looking just at the actual substance of comments, it is looking like it is the skepticism that is wearing the emperor's new clothes, not global warming/climate change.

It is interesting that not one person who posts here expressing skepticism about the theory/interpretation/hypothesis has taken up the suggestion I made to say what he/she believes, not what you disbelieve. Do you not think there is any long-term warming at all? There is warming but it is not much and we shouldn't worry? There is a lot of warming but it is entirely naturally-driven? or what? I'm just curious.
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 10, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
It is interesting that not one person who posts here expressing skepticism about the theory/interpretation/hypothesis has taken up the suggestion I made to say what he/she believes, not what you disbelieve.

How about the believers? Which AGWers have taken up the suggestion you made to say what he/she believes?
TLP

climber
Jan 10, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
That's a good question, but I did very specifically say what I think is the case, based on the data and science I've seen. Opinion subject to change based on some kind of substantive new science. (There is a long-term warming trend, human activity is contributing significantly to it, and there will likely be adverse consequences. How adverse, not sure.) Speak up, folks.

But I also said I don't think the human population as a whole is going to do anything to alter the trend in a substantive way. For example, see the graph below (data is from U.S. Energy Information Administration, nice image came from elsewhere but I checked against the original spreadsheet and it's the same). The numbers this was based on are certainly accurate enough to provide a valid overview.
Credit: TLP
Totally setting aside (for just the present moment) the question of advisability, it is obviously technologically, economically, and/or politically infeasible for emissions in the U.S. and EU to be reduced by enough, short term (10-20 years) to compensate for increases in China and India. And those countries are not going to change their trends for quite a while. Probably not unless there are some incredibly massive adverse consequences that occur within their own borders, and maybe not even then. A cynic might suggest that China would love to have some disaster-driven population reduction, and certainly would prefer that to squeezing their job creation that is founded on coal consumption, with the resultant social upheaval.

Anyway, we're in for whatever is going to happen or not happen. In my personal opinion, it is advisable to try to come up with reasonable scenarios of the consequences so we can prepare for the most likely ones in advance.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 10, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
It is interesting that not one person who posts here expressing skepticism about the theory/interpretation/hypothesis has taken up the suggestion I made to say what he/she believes, not what you disbelieve.

Bullshet!


I concur with Sketch. Not one of these AGW Zealots here has been honest as to their true underlying "belief" and quest via this insane madness of an ideology.

Well, maybe a couple have... EDH for example. He was somewhat frank when he very selectively shared waaaaaaaaaaaaay up thread how this was more of political agenda than anything.

As was KMAN on his very first post:

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz

Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 28, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
I read a funny quote: We're treating Mother Earth like Keith Moon treated a hotel room.

Just wondering, are there any more climate change skeptics out there? Or did they all die off from gagging on all the right-wing spin on the subject?


OH! My BAD...

It is also obvious where FUKEDINTHEHEADMENTAL stands. MSNBC and all.

DMT: Fence Straddler. Gotta do what ya gotta do to be part of the.. Tribe.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Jan 10, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
A cynic might suggest that China would love to have some disaster-driven population reduction, and certainly would prefer that to squeezing their job creation that is founded on coal consumption, with the resultant social upheaval.

A cynic? You'd have to be insane to believe that. A country that monitors every available social media for signs of organized protest is scared sh1tless of an environmental catastrophe that'll cause it's population to revolt. China sees the writing on the wall: racing like mad to build high-end, low-footprint factories that will build green technologies. Cornering the solar panel market was just a first step: consider how they lie in wait for the latest technologies to go to market before they force their bankruptcies and subsequent purchases.

As for getting the anti-AGW pinheads here to argue their positions; it ain't gonna happen. We'll present all the science they need to form an informed opinion, and they'll reply as is culturally appropriate for science-fearing, backwards culture, married to a conservative ideology that says any effort to improve our environment is a communist plot to steal their ill-gotten wealth.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Jan 10, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^racist^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 10, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
All political FUKEDINTHEHEADMENTAL. Nothing more... Told ya.



China sees the writing on the wall: racing like mad to build high-end, low-footprint factories that will build green technologies.

Well there ya go FUKEDINTHEMENTAL. Even more reason for you to pack your shet and get the fk outta here... asap.


No balls to put your ass where your mouth is. None.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 10, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
TLP

climber

Jan 10, 2014 - 01:21pm PT



FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM

Jan 10, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
A cynic might suggest that China would love to have some disaster-driven population reduction, and certainly would prefer that to squeezing their job creation that is founded on coal consumption, with the resultant social upheaval.

A cynic? You'd have to be insane to believe that. A country that monitors every available social media for signs of organized protest is scared sh1tless of an environmental catastrophe that'll cause it's population to revolt. China sees the writing on the wall: racing like mad to build high-end, low-footprint factories that will build green technologies. Cornering the solar panel market was just a first step: consider how they lie in wait for the latest technologies to go to market before they force their bankruptcies and subsequent purchases.

As for getting the anti-AGW pinheads here to argue their positions; it ain't gonna happen. We'll present all the science they need to form an informed opinion, and they'll reply as is culturally appropriate for science-fearing, backwards culture, married to a conservative ideology that says any effort to improve our environment is a communist plot to steal their ill-gotten wealth.


anita514

Gym climber
Great White North

Jan 10, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^racist^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

See... even your GF says so.



Damn!
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