Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 26, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
Already happened about 5 times.

Selective harvest.

And management.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 26, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
They have never stopped cutting trees in wny.

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jan 27, 2015 - 12:53am PT
There are off the grid solar powered homes in Cali.
http://homes.trovit.com/off-grid-solar-california
http://greenhomesforsale.com/listing/view/united_states_california_nevadacity_95959_19673
http://tinyhousetalk.com/grid-modern-solar-house-california/
http://sol-sierra.com/
http://sellswell.us/real-estate/sale/houses/152000-2br-1354ft2-beautiful-solar-powered-log-home-on-118-acres-lake-county-2047942
http://blog.prefabium.com/2012/05/off-grid-green-prefab-home-california.html
http://www.mishalov.com/Off_The_Grid.html
http://www.westhavensolar.com/our-services/solar/pv-systems-off-grid
http://www.oynot.com/customer-installed-systems/2700-watt-xw6048-offgrid-dunlap-ca.html
http://www.jetsongreen.com/2011/01/clearlake-ithouse-off-grid-california.html

I suspect it is some local zoning laws require you to connect to the grid if it is available, so that if you ever sell a home, the next owner has access to the grid. Just like you are required to connect to a sewer if available.
That does not mean you ever have to use the grid, you could keep a switch in the disconnect position, although if the utilities have their way, you may have to pay a base fee even if not a single electron flows to/from the grid.

In fact a friend of mine built a house fully permitted 12 years ago within the city limits of San Diego that is off the grid, because SDG&E would have charged him extreme amounts to extend the power lines to his lot.

http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/05/08/are-you-a-target-if-you-live-off-the-grid/

http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/csi/faqs.php#9
When I get my California Solar Initiative-funded solar system installed, will I be "off-grid?"

No. The California Solar Initiative Program only provides incentives to grid-connected solar systems, thus California Solar Initiative participants are not off-grid; rather, their systems produce energy that flows back onto the grid, which they conversely draw from whenever their systems are not generating energy. Grid-tied solar electric systems are not typically designed to provide back-up power when there is an electrical outage.

pros and cons of being off grid
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/or-grid
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Jan 27, 2015 - 05:45am PT
Good on you Wilbeer. It sounds like you really have it together.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:06am PT
Look solar is great and whether its on the farm, or out at the chief's house, or on wilbeer's place, solar power is a GOOD thing :)

It cannot replace oil. Not even remotely close. Somewhere buried in this bloated thread TGT (I think) posted the total output of wind and solar vs various fossil fuels, for the U.S. The difference (to be made up, mind you) is staggering. We can't pave all the deserts even if we were abominable enough to try.

Current green energy production is a good thing (except hydro plugging otherwise running rivers). Its a good thing, ok? I don't count those bird burning mirrors in the Mojave desert as green energy, if that is someone's vision of future energy production we are simply doomed.

But its all a drop in the bucket, isn't it?

We want to talk about solutions, right? The only solution is to replace the fossil fuel with something else. Something not currently at our disposal.

But if we kill the global economy along the way to less carbon output, there will be war. I suspect a lot of folks who propose radical solutions know those radical solutions involve wholesale population removal via resource wars... given the oil WILL run out, all out global conflict is the ultimate arbiter?

DMT
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:07am PT
Rick,
Speaking of the high cost of electricty in the north east, those coal burners are shut down because they are converting to natural gas. I know folks that work the nuke plants and they told me to come to Penn. It is easy for travlers to get on because no one wants to quit a long term coal burner conversion for a month long refueling job. I figure if they all go back there, it may be easier for me to get on the Washington site this spring:-)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:34am PT
Thanks Roger and DMT.

I know solar and renewables are a drop in the bucket,that is why I mentioned the 2% figure upthread.

That does not mean these "all of the above" renewables should be discarded or discredited.

Solar's economic footprint has grown threefold in the past 2 years.

It is not and never will be FF energy.It is not a bridge either.

If it works up here ,the northern great lakes area,it will work almost anywhere.It is a solution,not a contributor to our problem.

On the grid or off.

That is what should be discussed.

Solutions,Answers,the road to sustainability is a very bumpy one.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:37am PT
That does not mean these "all of the above" renewables should be discarded or discredited.

Agreed! So how about the next time someone writes 'stupid' to another poster for saying so (that renewables are a drop in the bucket) you personally call them out on their behavior?

Instead of tolerating it because its a fellow traveler?

That would be swell. I am sick and tired of the endless insults flowing from certain people on this thread.

DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:42am PT
DMT,I believe I have.: )
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:43am PT
Cheers!

DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:56am PT
http://www.psfk.com/2014/09/elon-musk-new-york-solar-gigafactory.html


Solar is pretty damn local for me.
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Jan 27, 2015 - 07:05am PT
Dingus,
I refuse to respond in any fashion to insults. If we all did the same maybe they would get the message.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 27, 2015 - 08:14am PT
There is some incorrect (or at least oversimplified) information here on off-grid solar. It is not illegal in California.

    If you put in a solar system that is not grid tied you are not eligible for the state rebates that is part of the California Solar Initiative

    If you put in an off-grid system that is less than 10 KW, there are no licensing fees

    It is true that in many municipalities you are required to have commercial power, plumbing and sewer/septic hooked up to your house. These are local regulations motivated by health/safety considerations and in some cases to allow cities to go after owners who abandon buildings.

And the number for renewable sources in the us on 2013 is ~13% of the total electrical generation capacity. Half of that is hydro, most of the rest is wind and solar. Solar is the fastest growing by far for the past 5 years.

Unfortunately there are many studies now that show if we completely eliminated greenhouse gases emissions, the various aspects of climate change would continue for at least a few thousand years. This rocket has been launched. As the consequences get more and more real, we will probably move into the geo-engineering experiments phase. If history can be a good guide this will also be known as the "unintended consequences on a global scale" phase!

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 08:31am PT
BTW, here in CA, the governor mandated that NO one can be independent of or set up a system that free from the grid.

A bald-faced lie.


http://www.californiasolarco.com/offgrid-solar-power-systems.html
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 27, 2015 - 08:32am PT
The MET Office weighs in on the "warmest year" rankings:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/news/release/archive/2015/2014-global-temperature

Nominally this ranks 2014 as the joint warmest year in the record, tied with 2010, but the uncertainty ranges mean it's not possible to definitively say which of several recent years was the warmest.

Colin Morice, a climate monitoring scientist at the Met Office, said: "Uncertainties in the estimates of global temperature are larger than the differences between the warmest years. This limits what we can say about rankings of individual years.



k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Malnuts offers nothing other than the insistent drum beating.
    The Chief

The Chief, what do you have to offer, except for a continuous argument against anything that just about anybody posts.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 27, 2015 - 08:47am PT
We want to talk about solutions, right? The only solution is to replace the fossil fuel with something else. Something not currently at our disposal.

But if we kill the global economy along the way to less carbon output, there will be war. I suspect a lot of folks who propose radical solutions know those radical solutions involve wholesale population removal via resource wars... given the oil WILL run out, all out global conflict is the ultimate arbiter?

Right now the only viable alternative to actually replacing electrical generation via fossil fuels is nuclear. Even moreso if we wish to go to mostly electrical transportation. (which is an eventuality) Nuclear is a place most societies are unwilling to go..for some good and many stupid reasons.

SO I realized a while ago we are not going to even try solve this issue in a significant way for many decades. We will when we run out of oil and coal or other things get really really bad. Hopefully the consequences are not as bad as some scenarios suggest.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 27, 2015 - 09:00am PT
ps. Ed? Chiloe? These are your spokespeople.

Uh, no. That perspective comes from your worldview, not mine.

But what did Malemute say, to launch this particular fuss? He quoted Dingus' assertion
That oil is going to get burned, come hell or highwater, literally.
and answered
Nope. Not all of us are that stupid.

Dingus can clarify what he meant, but I read his assertion to state that humanity is not smart enough to see trouble coming and make changes before it's too late. To which Malemute disagrees by saying no, not all of us are that stupid. Which seems like a perfectly reasonable, perhaps hopeful, response to Dingus' doleful pessimism. The "stupid" in question would be those who choose oil-burning-come-hell-or-high-water, and sure enough may get both.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:03am PT
Solar panels and wind energy are becoming more and more competitive. Any temporary market hiccups are minor in the big scheme.

Tell that to the 10's of 1000's of people of the NE that can't afford to pay the price of electricity as it has doubled in the past 3-4 month.


Power companies and large enterprise keep trying to figure out how to centralize solar power so they can make a dime off it.

I say our economic system must move away from the growth/debt cycle that we are in. For example, the state should begin to install solar on homes in areas where it will produce the power needed for that house.


What?? Who's gonna pay for it all??


We have to move away from that mindset, because honestly, we're all gonna pay for it one way or another. For example, who paid for the Katrina & Sandy cleanups. How much the cost of this historic blizzard on the east coast? Who pays?

Our world is a closed-loop system, and we must start living with the knowledge that the system needs to be respected. And nourished.

While the die is already cast, to a large extent, there is still things that can be done to begin the adaptation to a world where we understand that we are all in one large community. In other words, we don't care for just our own family, but we care for the health of our community.

This is a fundamental change, away from quarterly profits to a working system.

Of course, we don't have to. But if we want to put up a fight, there are many things that we can do today to begin the transformation:

    Dissolve the Fed & our national debt (ever wonder who it is we are in debt to, and why we pay off the loans?)

    Install fuel-efficient, high-coverage public transportation and make that the primary mode of transportation by raising the cost of gas for private vehicles

    Where it is possible, create civic-owned gardens that produce local foods.

    Nationalize fossil fuels and make sure the cost covers the entire round trip of the fuel (which includes the clean up).

In other words, we must start acting as if we are all living in local communities, and each community must become as self-sufficient as possible.

I'm not saying that we must stop all importing/exporting. But, we must roll into all goods the true cost of producing, transporting, and destroying the goods. Crap from China is cheap because we don't pay for the real cost of producing the goods--we are delaying the downstream costs of production clean up.

Take a look at Cheveron and what they did to Ecuador for a glimpse of what I mean. I love it, $2.50/gal. But do you think that covers the coast of cleaning up the Amazon?

We don't have to change, I suppose.
WBraun

climber
Jan 27, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Most of humanity is actually very intelligent.

But they are suppressed by the stupid few who due to their previous Karmic reactions have made the rest of humanity suffer along their foolish actions .....
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