Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Dec 15, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Sketch,you started that set of snow maps at 2003.The NOAA has those maps dating far further back than that.

Why are you starting at 2003?

This is my source: http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/index.html?region=National&year=2013&month=12&day=15&units=e&incr=+%2B+

If you have link providing the percentage of "Area Covered By Snow" going back beyond 2003, I'd be happy to check it out.

Do you really think that set tells any real story,when you could go back ,way further and tell a completely different story.

Post up a link. I'll check it out.

Picking data ,taking it out of context with the undeniable truth of the full story,Aye?

What did I take out of context with the undeniable truth of the full story? Please explain.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 15, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
watch at your peril Sketch

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
For Ed: http://debunkhouse.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/the-hansen-model-another-very-simple-disproof-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Sketch,I have used that [snow coverage maps] information for years as a tool for BC skiing,probably since I have owned a computer.

For some reason,I swear,one could go back and study maps from the 80's.I will agree ,you can not access that now.

I am going to find out why.

But ,whilst it is still Fall,our biggest snows[see lake effect] always occurred BEFORE the solstice.
The reason being Lake Erie and Lake Ontario would stay open[ice free] for that period roughly,and the active lake effect storms/squalls[as what is happening right now here]would energize.

Once the lakes would freeze the storms could not pick up enough moisture to proceed.




edit;the undeniable truth is ,it used to snow alot more during this period in just my lifetime.I will post up.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
Sketch even if we accept your "disproof"

Did you notice that even your disproof is showing a continuous increase in global temperature?

SO you wish to argue the rate of change. Fine.. Just for shits and giggles I'll concede you your point.

From my point of view (based completely on your post) I'll just thank god maybe there is still a chance we have more time to stop millions of people from being hurt needlessly by AGW.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Sketch even if we accept your "disproof"

Did you notice that even your disproof is showing a continuous increase in global temperature?

SO you wish to argue the rate of change. Fine.. Just for shits and giggles I'll concede you your point.

What "disproof" are you referring to?

What point are you conceding?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
while we are waiting patiently for Ed, perhaps Sketch you could comment on the advisability of an uneducated layman (such as yourself) gaining an impartial, objective analysis and opinion form a blog site operated by a single individual who is employed by the petroleum industry, has no published peer reviewed record of study or research in the subject and is prone to producing blog fodder such as this:


According to the first law of thermodynamics, any net increase in the internal energy dU of a thermodynamic system must be fully accounted for, in terms of heat δQ entering the system and the work δW done by the system.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_…ics)#section_3

When you increase the cost of energy (dU) without increasing the value of work, you destroy wealth.

Only a moron or a greentard would try to increase to cost of dU.

(An Enviromarxist greentard would reply with some babbling about EROEI.)

Mental greentardation and libtardation are self-inflicted forms of mental defectiveness… Or symptomatic of latent Marxist tendencies. Investments have to be accounted for in dollars and other measures of capital formation. Accounting for investments in terms of labor (jobs created or saved), carbon emissions saved (Social Cost of Carbon), Energy Returned On Energy Invested (EROEI) and other measures is to economics what Lysenkoism is to science.

I’m not mocking the mentally ill. I’m pointing out the fact that people like Krugman and Al Gore are mentally ill (or closet Marxists). Since I know that they are not stupid (well Krugman’s not stupid), I have to assume that they have rationalized things like spending more than 20¢/kWh to generate electricity when the current sources cost less than 8¢/kWh or spending taxpayer funds on high speed rail lines that can’t compete with commuter airlines or even provide much advantage over driving.

I ridicule them because it is fun, easy and I firmly believe that stupidity should be painful.

Anyone who would intentionally choose electricity generation sources with levelized generation costs above 12¢/kWh deserves to feel stupid…

or


Enviromarxism

Enviromarxism is an economic system in which capital is replaced by greentarded economic metrics like EROEI, “green jobs,” Social Cost of Carbon or Inclusive Wealth Index.

EROEI

It doesn’t matter how much energy it takes to extract, refine and transport fossil fuels. EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested) is even dopier than AGW and Peak Oil. I don’t spend energy to fill my tank. I don’t give energy back to the gas & electric companies in exchange for them being nice enough to heat and light my home. My company doesn’t drill for oil & gas to make energy.

I spend money to fill my tank. My company drills wells for oil & gas to make money. My gas & electric bills are paid for with money. My pay check, ExxonMobil & Shell credit card statements and checks to the gas & electric companies aren’t denominated in joules, kilowatts or btu – They are denominated in $.

I don’t give a rat’s @$$ if 1 barrel of amoeba farts uses less energy to produce than 1 barrel of crude oil…


Well, you get the idea.....

Now I googled "Enviro Marxism" and the search always led back to the same blog. Despite this fellows insistence, it seems that "Enviro Marxism" is not a widely recognized economic system.

Aside from the fact that this alleged scientist type seems to rage about economics at least as much as marxist scientism, can you think of any other reason why you, a rank layman, may wish to take what this gentleman says with a rather large portion of salt?

Just curious.....

1) exactly by what methods do you ascribe trust to your chosen experts?

2) Do you think that it is possible to identify a risk of political ideological bias in a person?

3) Do you think it is possible for a layman - yourself for instance - to ignore glaring obvious signs of political bias, if said bias strongly appeals to your own?


Thank you so much for your help and cooperation. You have been most forthcoming over our long association on this forum. cheers
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#335357
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Sketch .. cmon man.. the one you just posted. I really did read it.

Here is the most pertinent part of the article you posted.

-------

Dr. James Hansen is the Director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Dr. Hansen is right up there with Al Gore, Michael Mann and the Climategate CRU on the list of people helping the UN to swindle the United States and other western democracies out of trillions of dollars through his promotion of the Anthropogenic Global Warming fraud.



So, according to Hansen’s 1988 predictions, the global temperature anomaly should be about 90% of the way from Scenario “C” to Scenario “A”… ~0.97°C. In reality, the global temperature anomaly is about half of what Hansen predicted for a similar rise in greenhouse gases.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#335363
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
"On this side of the debate: every scientist in the world. On the other: Mr Potato-Head".
There is no debate here; it's just scientists and non-scientists, and since the topic is science, the non-scientists don't get a vote.
Bill Maher
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#335377
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 15, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
damn, this sounds familiar

Liberal comment trolling polarizes conservatives (but not vice versa), study says
BY HENRY FARRELL
October 7 at 12:21 pm

A set of recent experiments by Lafayette College professor Elizabeth Suhay suggests that inflammatory liberal blog comments do more to enrage and polarize conservatives than inflammatory conservative comments do to enrage and polarize liberals. Suhay took recent debates on the sequester, and then set up online experiments where she exposed people to a neutral news article on the sequester plus two politically neutral comments (the control group), or to uncivil comments from a liberal/Democratic perspective, or a conservative/Republican perspective. Both sets of uncivil comments were inflammatory and aimed at attacking the other side rather than providing substantial arguments. Suhay expected that this would cause polarization on both the left and the right. That’s not what she found:

it was expected that liberals/Democrats would move to the left (e.g., opposing the sequester and supporting Obama), and that conservatives/Republicans would move to the right (e.g., supporting the sequester and opposing Obama), in response to incivility from the left and right. However, when the results from the interactive models were graphed, we only saw polarization among those on the right. This suggests a greater sensitivity to incivility among conservatives and Republicans. Why this is the case is unclear at this time; however, previous research has shown that incivility does appear to be more common in conservative than liberal media.


sensitive little fellas

igster

Boulder climber
Stockholm, Sweden
Dec 16, 2013 - 01:42am PT
And here's a good article trying to explain the recent hiatus

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113533/global-warming-hiatus-where-did-heat-go
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 16, 2013 - 08:54am PT
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/16/21911592-climate-change-experts-fraud-was-crime-of-massive-proportion-say-feds?lite
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Dec 16, 2013 - 09:03am PT
TYPICAL example of our gubbmint today^^^^ no matter the "sides"..:-(
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 16, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Hey igster, that is a very well written article. Thanks.

Quote:

"And once you concede the existence of the greenhouse effect, it’s tough to dispute the role of greenhouse gas emissions in warming the planet....

So here’s what’s clear: Over the longer term, temperatures will increase."

Discussed climate change yesterday with someone from one of the local gov't labs. He commented that the whole debate is shifting away from Al-Gore-style (or WattsUpWithThat-style) sweeping grand statements to to one of pragmatic planning for the next few years.

As an example, the Western Governors Association, faced with urgent questions over recent droughts and obviously changing snowpack levels and times, are asking scientists for help with forecasting just a year or two or three ahead. Better forecasts are worth a lot of money for ranchers and farmers who can see changes happening and want some idea of where things are going.

So, some funding for climate change research is now starting to come from individual states in the Western US.

http://www.westgov.org/initiatives/climate
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Dec 16, 2013 - 09:28am PT
In the end, the so-called scientific consensus on global warming doesn’t look like much like consensus when scientists are struggling to explain the intricacies of the earth’s climate system, or uttering the word “uncertainty” with striking regularity.

I like cherries.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 16, 2013 - 09:32am PT
You do like cherries don't you. The word uncertain seems to be a particularly plump and tastey one for you.


With this strong predilection for certainty, perhaps you are a man of the religious persuasion Sketch?



Anybody check out TGT's link? Good work TGT. You find a few thousand more examples like that and we may be able to build a case of institutional fraud and collusion involving the CIA and Pakistan to undermine US hegemonic dominance of energy production.

It is your one possible avenue to discredit the science so I suggest you keep looking, perhaps here:

http://www.infowars.com/
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 16, 2013 - 10:04am PT
The Russians seem pretty certain, although they picked a really strange geo climactic zone for a winter Olympics. Good thing it wasn't Vancouvers turn this year.

Russian Olympic officials certain of snow for 2014 Sochi Games
BY DAVID WHARTON
Los Angeles TimesDecember 13, 2013

Russian officials are now confident that the mountain venues for the 2014 Sochi Olympics will have enough snow when competition begins in February.

With more than 20 inches of coverage on the ground already and recent avalanche warnings in the area, the country's chief forecaster said that concerns about a dry, bare winter have faded.

"For the snow cover this deep," Roman Vilfand, director of the Russian Meteorological Office, told the ITAR-Tass news agency, "this isn't a problem."

On Friday, the head of the Sochi organizing committee also announced that even if temperatures rise and the coverage melts, his crews have stored enough snow to last through the Olympics and the Paralympic Games that follow in March.

Dmitry Chernyshenko told Tass that organizers "can exhale _ (we) have prepared three times more than hoped" (link in Russian).

Some 450,000 cubic meters of last year's snowfall have been stored and organizers have installed a massive snow-making system.

Read more here: http://www.bradenton.com/2013/12/13/4887219/russian-olympic-officials-certain.html#storylink=cpy
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