Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 12, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 12, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
Sorry Rick...Rons already hunted that area out...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 12, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
You see Rick? If even TGT can research, I'm sure you also can find some old 1960's era Readers Digest article on ethics. Or have you ever heard of Google?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 12, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
Shotgun but no snowshoes..? Don't you ever check the forecast...?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2014 - 10:29am PT
Mental, that's an interesting study you found there. One thing I think is important to remember is that certain personalities put a premium on "feelings" in their determination of reality. These particular personalities typically invest their feelings in a politic that upholds mythology over fact or reason.

The single best assessment of this politic has been attributed to Karl Rove:


Reality-based community
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reality-based community is an informal term in the United States. In the fall of 2004, the phrase "proud member of the reality-based community" was first used to suggest the commentator's opinions are based more on observation than on faith, assumption, or ideology. The term has been defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality." Some commentators have gone as far as to suggest that there is an overarching conflict in society between the reality-based community and the "faith-based community" as a whole. It can be seen as an example of political framing.

The source of the term is a quotation in an October 17, 2004, The New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind, quoting an unnamed aide to George W. Bush (later attributed to Karl Rove[1]):

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."[2]

While we view this as alarmingly batshit crazy, they view it as supremely strategic. While we waste our time in "judicious study", They move on to newer and greater conguest. Because reality continues to allow the "plausibility of their reality" to persist, that gives them all the lisence they need.

It is why Chuff prefers The Zen of Motor Cycle Maintenance and The Fart of War by Lick Balls as his personal bibles. It stokes his feeling, especially the Farts of War.

Which might also explain his vast library of anal oriented photos
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 13, 2014 - 11:09am PT
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 13, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Okay Sports fans... pay attention.

We've got an overabundance of fossil fuels in this country.







This means crude and natural gas will be (relatively) inexpensive for the foreseeable future.... which means the masses will be opposed to abandoning these fuel sources in favor of alternative, eco-friendly energy sources for as long as crude and ng are cheap.... which means significant measures to combat AGW are going to be a tough road to hoe... for the foreseeable future.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2014 - 11:36am PT
I think what Sketch is saying is, difficult choices are not something America ( and its surrogate Canada) is renown for....
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 13, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Typical Bruce.

Always over-thinking (read: missing the point) a simple point.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
Sorry bout that. I'll work on minimizing my thinking.


Typical of you I might add is a complete abject failure to explain your point, if your point is something other than what you say.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 13, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/25020

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/legislative_reports/fcce-report-to-congress.pdf

Okay for all you keyboard junkies, peruse and chew on this summation of funding for 1998=2009 of 99 billion dollars and the presidents office funding for CC from 2012-2012. This is only the obvious funding . I'm sure there are many billions more from the hay days of earmarking. I know Ted Stevens frustrated with the fed bureaucracies endless attacks and shutdowns of Alaskan industry was of the mind if your going to shut down are liviehood your damn well going to pay for it. He built the UA environmental science program with hundreds of millions of dollars in earmarks, also fisheries studies, forestry studies, direct compensation- if you cant beat them then beat them on there own game was the attitude. These figures do not count the many additional billions of dollars funding CC coming from environmental NGO's, private foundations, billionaires, state, and local governments etc. For you zealots out there-try to match the imagined opposition funding dollar for dollar.We can talk more in depth about ethics, or the lack thereof, after you've completed your funding studies.
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 13, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Excellent post, Ed. Everything you say is spot on. Unfortunately, it doesn't address the fact that humans are not inclined to adopt changes until those changes are tangibly preferable to the status quo.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 13, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
Ah step 3 is it Sketch... you've pretended to accept there is warming, you're willing to pretend its human caused.... but oh darn, those pesky humans aren't going to do anything about it, shucks. Doesn't matter what Ed has to say because...

Next up - back to no-warming, right?

DMRT
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 13, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Ah Dingus, you can quit playing Thorne's game and hit table mtn or the Valley for actual challenges eh?! Sure as hell would be more memorable and more akin to life eh?!!

hit that sh!t!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
The Chief, rick, Sketch.

Go ahead, deny this:





Antarctic Glacier's 'Irreversible' Melting Threatens 'Considerable Increase' to Sea Level Rise

New study on Pine Island Glacier shows 'striking vision of the near future,' says co-author
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 13, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Ah step 3 is it Sketch... you've pretended to accept there is warming, you're willing to pretend its human caused.... but oh darn, those pesky humans aren't going to do anything about it, shucks. Doesn't matter what Ed has to say because...

Next up - back to no-warming, right?

DMRT

Have I ever claimed there hasn't been warming over the last 150 years?

Have I ever claimed humans weren't a factor?

Your attack is based on bullshit assumptions.

Is it because you know I'm right? That we are not going to do anything... anything that will significantly alter the situation... until doing so is more desirable to the masses?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 13, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
What are the social , scientific, and business costs of Ed's assertion of unrealized costs of FF's , due to environmental and human impacts and mitigation costs, if natural variability , as it is currently demonstrating, turns out to far exceed the small human contribution. I know Ed doesn't mind gambling with the private populace's money and livlihoods since he and most everyone close to him feel insulated in their positions inside government bureacracy. Are the private sector members of you here really interested in fully participating in his gamble? Off to the basin for some healthy obsessions.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
Remember Rick -think about ethics all day! We will eagerly await your profundities upon your return.
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 13, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
The Chief, rick, Sketch.

Go ahead, deny this:

Deny what?

I read somewhere that the melt-water produced from Pine Island Glacier in 2012 was about half that of 2010.

2012 produced the lowest amount of summer melting of the Pine Island Glacier on record.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
I read somewhere that the melt-water produced from Pine Island Glacier in 2012 was about half that of 2010.
That "somewhere" was probably telling Sketch about an article in the 10 January issue of Science, which reported Pine Island Glacier melting decreased 53% from Jan 2010 to Jan 2012 (from about 80 to 37 cubic km/year of meltwater production). The paper asks why:
However, conditions in the months leading up to the 2012 observations were unusual (see also supplementary materials). Most of 2011 was marked by strong easterly wind anomalies over the Amundsen Sea (Fig. 4, A and B), weakening the typically cyclonic wind stress curl over the continental shelf (Fig. 4B) and curtailing the westerlies north of the shelf edge that are thought to enhance onshore CDW transport (21). Integrated over the preceding year, the zonal wind north of the continental shelf even reversed to easterly in 2011 (red line in Fig. 4B), an occurrence that is unique in the reanalysis wind record dating back to 1979
The paper k-man references upthread is a newer piece just published in Nature Climate Change. I haven't read the new paper yet but here's a report written from the authors' materials. This report starts out by referencing the earlier Science article.
Barely two weeks after a report in Science suggested that La Nina had slowed the melt rate of the Pine Island Glacier in Antarctica, new research by French scientists published in Nature Climate Change suggests that the glacier may be in irreversible decline and could, on its own, contribute to a sea level rise of up to 1cm in the next 20 years.
...
Pine Island Glacier is the Antarctic glacier which contributes most to the rise in sea level. An international team of researchers led by the Laboratoire de Glaciologie et Géophysique de l’Environnement (Laboratory of Glaciology and Environmental Geophysics LGGE) in France has shown that this contribution could grow by between three and five times in the next twenty years increasing sea levels by up to 10mm. Scientists have also shown that the glacier is receding irreversibly and that it would, in all likelihood, not return to its initial state. Their work was published on 12 January 2014 on the website of the journal Nature Climate Change.

For twenty years now, the West Antarctic has contributed significantly to the rise in sea level. Pine Island Glacier, located in the western part of Antarctica is the largest contributor to this increase: it alone represents nearly 25% of the contribution of West Antarctic melt water. The edge receded ten kilometers from the 2000s and the glacier is tending to thin more. The eastern part of Antarctica remains in equilibrium for now (that is, the amount of ice that accumulates is equal to that lost snow glaciers feeding).
...
Scientists have relied on three of the latest generation of computer models of flow of the ice in the polar caps. All three models shows that the glacier is likely to be unstable and will continue to recede for at least forty kilometers over the next fifty years. The mass loss associated with this irreversible decline is expected to increase significantly from the average value of 20 gigatonnes per year observed during the period 1992 to 2011, up to 120 gigatonnes per year over fifty years modeled. Thus, its annual contribution to rising sea levels could rise by three to five times. This loss would result in an increase in sea level ranging between 3.5 and 10 mm in the next twenty years.
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