Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 20 of total 26664 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 28, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
I read a funny quote: We're treating Mother Earth like Keith Moon treated a hotel room.

Just wondering, are there any more climate change skeptics out there? Or did they all die off from gagging on all the right-wing spin on the subject?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
Hopefully they're as extinct as the Dodo, but with the amount of Christian traffic here lately, there might be a few left.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
I'm a climate change legislation skeptic. I am not GOP however.

I'm the kind of guy the folks who want to drop BILLIONS of money we don't have on something unenforcable need to reach. This far they have failed.

I am not convinced any global warming legislation will have any positive effect on any of this, ever. We have a bunch of people assuring us they know what they are talking about. I am not convinced they know sh#t from shinola when it comes to cures for global warming.

I was against Kyoto. Bush was right not to sign the RipOFF America treaty.

Those of you who promoted Kyoto ... you were WRONG.

DMT
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
I guess this wasn't the monolithic response you guys were looking for? Ha ha ha.




I'm with you Dingus.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
Sorry, but I think the "It's happening but you go first" response is a cop out.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
The dog ate it.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTBiMTRlMDQxNzEyMmRhZjU3ZmYzODI5MGY4ZWI5OWM
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
Dirtbag I think responses like yours above are a cop out.

I don't lock step with ANYBODY.

DMT
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
Okay Dingus, you say you're not sure that anyone really knows how to stop it.

What do you mean by that? We know several ways to do reduce CO2 emissions. Preferably we will act in coordination with the rest of the world, but I also think we have a responsibility to lead and do the right thing if some other countries aren't interested.

Otherwise yeah, I think waiting for someone else to make the first move is a copout. It's a great way to do nothing.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
DMT hits it right the first time. The issue is not about whether human activity is the cause of any changes in climates or if the changes are entirely natural. The question is "do any of the unaffordable targeted projects reduce the temperature of the globe, one fraction of a degree?" If reduce is what you want. Now they change the campaign from Global Warming to Global Climate Change, to include ice storms, heavy snows, huge rain events, etc. Or are they just more taxes, extracted in the name of fear, but this time on a global scale. Think of the great revenues involved in collecting a methane fee from every constituant on the plantet, in the name of the planet. So, I'm a skeptic too. I'm skeptical the governments have plans in place, that if only funded, will cool the planet; or change the planet, whatever is desired. Do I think our species is in trouble because of resource depletion and spoiling? You bet.

Arne
rmsusa

Trad climber
Boulder
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
I'm with Dingus & fattrad, but don't even care if it's human produced. We'll deal with it when it happens.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
I think the answers would be a lot more honest if you guys simply said "I just don't give a sh#t."
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
I crossed the line towards accepting the science about a decade ago. I am also an earth scientest who approaches things with a fair degree of skepticism. That said, it should not change your mind. Arguments from authority, in a strict logical sense, are moot.

The subject is very difficult to wade through in the popular media. There are a lot of incoherent or downright untruthful methods out there to describe this. Within the industry I work in, acceptance of climate change conclusions is tantamount to painting yourself with a scarlet letter. Or the red badge of courage depending on how you want to look at it.

It IS something that would be tremendously difficult to address. Very expensive. So, I doubt many will admit that the emperor has no clothes as long as it is hitting them in the pocketbooks(see DMT and ionlyski posts above). Expense has nothing to do with science. I remember being taught geosynclinal theory (wiki that thing up) in college by an old fart who hadn't accepted plate tectonics. Humans can't stop volcanoes and earthquakes yet, so the pocketbook issue is moot. The science is what matters.

I find it very disturbing that politics and emotion has intruded and manipulated science .That is not the way to get good answers. Of course, either side of the issue claims the high ground here. In the past there is the great example of locking Galileo up in a room for the rest of his life, but it didn't change much looking back.

Things amost certainly WILL keep changing. It isn't like an asteroid hitting the earth that will end all life, but one of my meteorologist friends suggested that Saskatchewan would be a good place to invest in property.

For the grand kids.
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
Dirtbag you are wrong. We DO NOT KNOW several ways to reduce CO2 emissions. WE... don't know any.

Now you may have some ideas but getting the rest of the world to adhere to these ideas is questionable... at the very best its questionable.

Read this in a geology book whilst perched on the terlit a little while ago - sea levels appear to be their highest, right now, as they have been in the last 125 MILLION YEARS.

Yes a littlke CO2 reduction is the cure for a 125 million year old problem, right.

DMT
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
I DO care though Dirtbag. Most of my life, I'd probably side with the tree hugging, salmon saving, don't dirt bike in the wilderness types, whilst growing up in a predominant timber town.

I just don't believe our government is here to help. If it's conservation you want from me, I'll pitch in.
Arne



Edited above-Dirtbag, not Dingus
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
There are alternative energy sources available and in development, there are fuel efficient vehicles available, conservation improvements, etc, etc. etc. There are alternatives to burning carbon, maybe not complete alternatives, but they are there and would allow us to still have very comfortable lives.

What we have is a lack of will to make the necessary changes. Or maybe not...we might learn soon enough.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
There is going to have to be government involvement, but I'm not a government hater like many here. Individual conservation is important, but there is going to have to be a larger scale coordination to make the kind of infractructure changes required.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
So, you want money from me, the little guy, for a plan the government you love so much, says is going to cool the planet (or prevent the climate from changing). Give me one good reason they should be trusted with my money to effect this change. What trillion dollar program do they have that will make things better?

Arne
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
Whoa! 17 posts and it's getting scary. Is this the forum for the flat earth society?
Dingus Milktoast

climber
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
CO2 emission laws will drive even more businesses to export pollution to 3rd world countries. It is a cynical con game.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
Jim d,

There are 17 (now 18) posts because there are multiple issues here. Anyone skeptical of a change in overall temperatures on earth should contact Chiloe, who referred me to excellent and, in my opinion, irrefuatable, sources showing its existence.

The more difficult question is what to do about it. As ionlyski correctly points out, it is rather difficult to determine any rational cost/benefit of proposed actions. I've done some work on trying to estimate marginal costs and benefits, but am rather far from meaningful conclusions. The State of California has done some good work collecting sources from the academic community, but the conclusion from those sources was, essentially, "this is really hard, and there's no good answer yet."

When we decide on, for example, carbon emission goals, we are making economic decisions (i.e., how to use scarce resources). The problem is we lack the economic data (i.e. marginal costs) to make those choices with any rational basis. That dilemma is the real reason for the skepticism. It's less about the warming (although the need for statistical sampling to answer even that questionscauses some people pause) and more an aversion to making economic decisions with ad hoc, non-economic data.

John
Messages 1 - 20 of total 26664 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews