BOLT REPLACEMENT TR (Fear No Evil 5.9R) @ the Leap

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mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 22, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
I have always had this one on my ticklist, however the stories of the old bolts always guided me away from this classic climb.

So after reading a great TR of the latest ascent:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=952829&msg=953183#msg953183

I thought a little rehab was in order. I got a couple of days off and showed up on monday afternoon, hiked to the rim and fixed my ropes to the ground in the midst of the heat. 380' with rope stretch, on the way down I scoped the whole route occasionally fixing off anchors and bolts on the way down.

The first bolt is pretty tough to get to from above, I had to climb left after swinging in to the bolt to Haystack to rig a directional just to keep myself oriented under the bolt.
This one was by far the worst on the route, It took a couple of tugs and POP!

25 feet later (read: ground fall) I met the second protection bolt:

Fear no Evil right?

50+ feet later I hit the first belay, the bolt on the Left was very solid and looked to have been a replacement itself (3/8 button head) So I just replaced the right anchor bolt. The threads sheered on me so I was forced to break the stud and patch the hole. The new anchor bolt is 2" below the old one now.

I finished drilling and fixed off the newish anchor to the ground, went to the bar, hung out with some cool people around the camp, and turned in to the cot.
I got up at around 8 am and headed back up to the fixed ropes. There was a team topping out on Bears reach and me all alone on the east wall. I started jugging up to the anchor and realized I was having a great time!

Soon enough I was lowering out from the anchor under the last protection bolt on the route. This one came out almost too easy (spinner)

New steel and I'm off to the second belay anchor:

American death triangle followed by the euro death Knott! I pulled the right bolt first: ON the way OUT!

Oh and I forgot to mention my tuning fork was swooped by those flying monkeys from outerspace, so the Iron Maiden was my partner for this trip:

This one was a bit longer: Split shaft 1/4 x 1.25"

Here is the new second belay:

So off to the rim via a very airy jug to pack it up and take the walk, Here is the tally:

All bolts placed were SS truebolt 3/8 x 2.25 with Metolious hangers.
I placed all but the one anchor bolt on P1 in the original holes.

I have to give a shout out to Booth and Smith, what a line! Steep, exposed climbing that you need to bring your A game for. The stance for the second bolt on P1 was Marginal (tough for me with a line from above!) The pro is there about every 20 feet or so but there are alot of good dikes on the way. There were also 2 Pitons, 1 was above the bolt on P2 (thin arrow half way in and flexing) I could not replace this one, it was sort of placed in the only crack around and the rock was very mungy so rather than destroy the placement I left it. Keep it together around this pin my friends! The second pin is just off of the 2nd belay, It's a 3/4 inch angle and in a descent placement but once again keep it together!

I had a great time out there, any climbing or ropework in the mountains is OK by me. I just hope this Classic route gets some more attention now, It is said to rival Fantasia.....

My hands hurt from the drilling and it was a good 2 days work that I thoroughly enjoyed. A thanks to a couple of guys who helped me out after my "Dropsey" Episode, Gravity is the soloist worst nightmare!

I hope this TR motivates at least one person to pick up the hammer and restore some of our timeless classics!

Peace,
Mucci
Ezra

Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
Sep 22, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
Thank you so much for your tireless work!
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Sep 22, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
Thanks,
That first pitch is one of my favorites and now maybe I will try the second again..
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Sep 22, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
Nice going dude!
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
concord, california
Sep 22, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
thanks dude

midarockjock

climber
USA
Sep 22, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
(tough for me with a line from above!)
Peace

I'm still wondering and thinking about CTA or BBDC for this
summer upcoming?
kev

climber
CA
Sep 22, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
"tireless work" my ass, Josh was prolly drunk!
Save those hangers brah - we can use them for new 1/4 inchers!
Good job.....

kev
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
^^^^
All business up there!

HA- Thank god you weren't around!@
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Sep 22, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
Good job man!
Ray-J

Social climber
socal
Sep 22, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
Mucci U got the spirit!

***

RE: "save the hangers...brah"

WTF?
dogtown

Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Sep 22, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
Nice.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Sep 22, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
Those hangers if signed by the FA will go for giant coin on Ebay...


Unsigned... maybe 3x retail. It is a karma kickback for bolt replacers. Don't ask me why...
Ray-J

Social climber
socal
Sep 22, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
Russ, really I mean let kev use those
40 year old fukked over total crap corroded stress
fractured complete garbage over-heat treated SMC hangers on
one of his proud death runout numbers...

Kev, don't worry, metal NEVER fatigues...
Go for it..."brah"
BurnRockBurn

climber
South of Black Rock City
Sep 22, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
THanks for the hard work and dedication. Glad you had fun doing it.
mason805

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Sep 22, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
Nice work, bro!

I was just out there this last weekend and we did East Crack (scared the hell out of me because it was runout in a few places with no good cracks to place gear (or maybe I was just too focused on getting up the rock to take the time to pay attention)) but just about 10 feet below the huge ledge to the left of Haystack's 1st pitch belay station was this ancient piton...I hooked it with a sling and biners because I was already a good 20 ft above my last placement, but that thing looked like it was at least 50 years old.

Anyone know the history on that one?

Pics below show about where the thing was on East Corner.



The sling/biner that Joyce is about to remove is hooked to that Piton.

Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:01am PT
Mucci-

Educate me. BITD, how were those button heads (the four on the right in your picture, say) meant to hold to the rock?

The engr in me is guessing they we're hammered into a slightly smaller drilled hole causing them to expand. Is this right? Also, were bolts BITD (or ever) glued in place?

Lastly, the one on the left in your picture, was that just a standard bolt bought from a hardware store? If so, how was that made to seize the rock so the nut could be tightened?

Thanks for the input in this area.

And good work! The Leap's my backyard so next time I'm there, I'll give it a go.

Ray-J

Social climber
socal
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:11am PT
Hey footloose - good questions;

The old bolts were hammered into a
Slightly smaller hole causing them to
Contract.

These are masonry anchors.
A google search will answer much.

Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:16am PT
Nice work!

kev - I'd reuse Leepers before the old thin SMCs...(at least the fattest 3rd-generation Leepers). You want the stainless ones for new 1/4" bolts.

mucci - that's a 5/16" buttonhead with the stainless SMC hanger. Good call on not trying to pull it. My experience is to never, ever mess with pulling a 5/16" buttonhead unless you really really want it out.

Footloose - the split-shaft buttonheads are compression, not expansion bolts. You can see what new ones look like here (they are still made in 1/4", 3/8", and larger sizes):

http://www.powers.com/product_03601.html

Glue-in bolts are rarely used in the US, and mostly recent (last 10-15 years), with large diameter modern glue-in bolts. You do see old examples of people placing bolts with silicone sealant to keep out water, which in my experience is counter-productive (more rust, not less - traps the water in with the bolt).

The last bolt on the left in the picture is just another compression bolt with a thread head instead of a buttonhead (thread heads are no longer made).
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:36am PT
Hey mason, I think that is the first pitch of east corner. Although it might be far east.

The leap is full of old pins. Some are FA material but some were nailed in later.
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:39am PT
Hey Mucci thanks for your work on that route the last time I climbed it 15+ those bolts were considered "solid"..... Glad my young climber yelled hammer or You would have cut my thick skull in half.....with that blue crowbar. Good hard work, nun the less. I'll do it later this season.
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:39am PT
Okay, I get it, thanks guys.

So they seized the rock by forced wedging then. So I suppose they were just easier to place than the sleeve types (which bitd I used in constr) that required larger diameter hole, more effort.

Any good link to a diagram showing this "5-piece" fastener I read about in some thread a few days ago? which is becoming the std apparently.

EDIT Thanks Greg.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 12:40am PT
I placed a new 1/4 inch button head of mine next to the ones I pulled for a scale.

All of that stuff at the leap is early 80's-90's 1/4 inch split shaft compression bolts. The threaded split shafts with the hex nuts are tough sometimes when you wedge the bolt out the force tends to break the threads, thus leaving you with a stud. This happened at the 2nd belay. So a patch and new placement are necessary.

Greg, I thought that was a 5/16 but have never dealt with them, That button head I left was solid with no corrosion or rust, nothing, nada.

Good times!

Mark- Thanks again man, very sorry about the airmail, took my eyes off the cluster for one minute and DOH! I owe you a beer my friend!
Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:43am PT
Footloose, the former Rawl 5-piece is now called the Power-Bolt:

http://www.powers.com/product_06914.html

edit: and it has been the standard bolt for sport routes in the US since sport climbing started in the late '80s. Unfortunately, nearly all the early ones were carbon steel, not stainless, so they are rusting away. Luckily most of the climbing areas in the western US are pretty dry, so they don't rust too fast...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:53am PT
nice work on helping to preserve our climbing future!
pyrrhonota

Trad climber
Davis, CA
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:53am PT
Thanks for the bomber bolts.
Stonedeaf

Social climber
misreading rock everywhere
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:07am PT
Mason, there is no question, your picture is East Corner. Thats the point where you choose .9 straight up to the huge ledge, or .7 right along a small crack.
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:10am PT
Hey Mucci I'll take that beer next time we stumble across each other on the steep.....I'll buy the next round.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:20am PT
Nice work.
mason805

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Sep 23, 2009 - 10:49am PT
Yes, 1st pitch of East Corner is what I climbed. Just wondering about the Pin/Piton/whatever it was. I've never seen one like it before.

Thanks for the info.

Now I want to go out there and check out Mucci's handiwork. There seemed like a lot of fun climbs on the East Wall.
Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 23, 2009 - 10:58am PT
Way to go!
midarockjock

climber
USA
Sep 23, 2009 - 11:30am PT


There be only 1 god sayeth thy lord.
Do you think the above statement is applicable to a man and or
a woman or both? Could there be more than 1 god with this
statement?


Read about the Star of David here.
http://www.shamanelder.com/newsletterjuly.html

GB for some reason I trust. CTA bolts were allegedly replaced just
a couple years ago, and I don't don't know what point they are
getting at in that rap route thread(photos||videos?). BBDC is a
possible candidate for pre-inspection rapping, the other I need to
redpoint.

Cheers and peace.
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Sep 23, 2009 - 11:35am PT
Three cheers for Mucci! Way to go!
sneville

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:13pm PT
Mucci,
Thanks for upgrading the bolts, I always wanted to do that route after doing fantasia. Nice work.
Sean
Daphne

Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
An engrossing report and thread. Thanks for your work.
bathsnake

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
Thanks for doing this, Mucci; this excellent route deserves it!

Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
-Marie Curie
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Sep 23, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
Ahhhhhh… You are using wedge bolts!!! Ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Please, no!!!! They cannot be pulled for replacement!

No more wedge bolts!!!!!!
kev

climber
CA
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
Greg,

The 1/4 inchers would only be temporary...Bad stance want to drill fast.

Ray-j = TROLL

Minerals,

?? They can be pulled, but they'll need to be replaced with something with a bigger diameter.

kev
Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
kev, I use 1/4" all the time for temporary bolts, but always with stainless SMCs (or other reliable hangers). I'd never use the old thin even for temp bolts - I wouldn't trust them to hold even body weight if you get a bad one.

Minerals isn't talking about the 1/4" - he's talking about the new 3/8" bolts, which are called stud bolts, wedge bolts, etc. They won't be able to be removed in the future when they deteriorate. The ASCA stopped using all stud/wedge type bolts some years ago for that reason. Now we only use removable bolts like 5-piece and Triplex (and glue-in bolts where needed in soft rock).

On the other hand, the new stud bolts will last a good long time considering that mucci used stainless steel, and considering how long little 1/4" compression bolts have lasted. And by the time they deteriorate it might be possible to drill them out.
kev

climber
CA
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
Greg,

They can be pulled - it's just a big PITA, and I suspect you're need to replace with a 1/2, no?

kev
Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
kev, nearly every bolt of that sort breaks during pulling. Since stainless is softer, and since it will be a long time before it starts to corrode, you'd expect that most of them would break off in the hole.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Sep 23, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
Kev, how do you pull them without destroying the hole? Replacing a wedge bolt with the next size up makes no sense. Who wants to drill out a 3/8” hole to 1/2”? By hand? Where does it end? Wedge bolts are not designed for removal and I have never been able to cleanly pull one – I just snap ‘em off and patch the hole. At least that Fixe crap is so soft that you hardly need to hammer on the stud to get it to snap. 4/5/6-piece Power Bolts are the way to go; they can be cleanly removed with little to no damage to the hole, meaning that the 3/8” hole can be used over and over and over, well into the future. A new hole should not be drilled each time a bolt needs to be replaced; the same hole needs to be reused. This is especially important in places like Tuolumne where the rock surface is bumpy (knobs) and uneven and there isn’t another good location for the bolt. First ascentionists usually place a bolt where they place it for a reason. I don’t think wedge bolts should be used anywhere, stainless or not.

We need to think in longer terms than a human lifetime. Glacial polish on the domes in Tuolumne has endured at least 10,000 years of weathering, yet most of it is still glass-smooth. In some areas, the polish and underlying rock has weathered away, leaving the knobs to protrude from the surface, and making climbers happy. But the amount of rock removed during this post-glacial period can be measured in inches – usually just a few at most. The point to all of this is that if we are going to continue climbing into the not-so-close future, we need to treat bolt holes as if they will be used for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Clogging a hole with a wedge bolt just means that a new hole will eventually need to be drilled (even if it is fifty years later), and quite often, there isn’t a good location for a new hole. I don’t see how a “deteriorated” bolt can be drilled through, as it will surely need to be replaced long before it deteriorates to the point that drilling it out is even possible.


Please, NO MORE WEDGE BOLTS!!!!!!!
Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
In the future (or even now) it might be possible to drill through deteriorated old stainless bolts with power drills - not hand drilling. But in 50 years I wouldn't be surprised if the NPS allows power drill use under permit for replacing existing bolts...after all, such decisions by management are already written in the Wilderness Act.

But Minerals' basic point is pretty dang obvious - since we have removable bolts like the 5-piece (the most common modern bolt to begin with) and the Triplex, we ought to be using bolts that can be removed for future replacement.
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Sep 23, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
Hey Mucci-

great work, thanks

also check your e-mail, I sent you a message. I have an offer to help you keep up the good work.

thanks
dave
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Sep 23, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
Nice work, mucci!
Nate D

climber
San Francisco
Sep 23, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
good going mucci!

Minerals,
Care to share any links to the most reasonably priced 4/5/6 piece Power bolts or Triplex mentioned - preferably stainless? Thanks.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Sep 23, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
Hey Mucci, I don’t mean to rip on you at all. Nothing personal; I have been meaning to start a “No More Wedge Bolts” thread, but saw your photos and decided to post up. Thanks for your replacement efforts – we need more guys like you out there!

Nate, I’d go broke if all of the 3/8” bolts that I placed were stainless. I’ll let the ASCA deal with that when the time comes. I have been placing the new, shorter Power Bolt – 3/8” x 1 7/8” (4-piece). These are a bit shorter than the standard 2 1/4” Power Bolt (5-piece) and they do not have the blue plastic sleeve. What’s nice about the shorter length is not only do you have to drill a shorter hole, but the sleeve sticks out of the hole, as opposed to the longer bolt with the blue plastic sleeve. This makes it much easier to remove the sleeve (needle-nose pliers) when it is time for replacement.

I’m not sure who has the best prices on bolts, but recently George picked up a bunch for me in Berkeley. The 1 7/8” Power Bolts were about $1.54 each, including tax (part #6911, 50 per box). I also picked up a bunch of 1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonheads, which had to be sent up from So Cal. (~$0.74 each, part #3241, 100 per box).

Bowlin Equipment Company, Berkeley: 510-527-8282

If you find better prices elsewhere, please let us know!


Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
Listen to Minerals - if you are going to use carbon steel Power bolts, these new shorty ones will be MUCH easier to replace. Very good rock only of course, they are short - you wouldn't want to use these at soft rock areas.

Technique for removing these ones:

 unscrew the bolt, take off hanger & washer
 blow out hole
 screw bolt back in a couple turns (no hanger)
 tap it in with ONE sharp tap
 unscrew the bolt
 use needle nose pliers to grab and pull the sleeve
 blow out hole
 screw the bolt and a hanger (beater hanger) back in to the cone, 3 or 4 turns
 funk out the cone

Looks like a lot, but it's pretty quick, and unless you are using Triplex bolts with 12mm hole hangers, it's as good as you can hope for (but the problem with Triplex and 12mm hole hangers is that if the nut loosens up, you can pull them just by clipping a draw and yanking on it). The "use needle nose pliers" step is the step that is a big pain with 5 or 6-pieces (longer Power-bolts), since you can get the blue sleeve (or the upper metal sleeve with 6-pieces), but getting the lower sleeve out is a pain.

And, of course, when hand drilling the 1/4" less depth is nice (they say 1 7/8" but they are basically 2" vs. 2 1/4").

Still, if you can afford it, stainless is the way to go. Particularly in wet locations such as water streaks. And don't even think about using non-stainless steel bolts in really wet areas like Index, Squamish, etc...
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
I hear you guys on the Wedgies, I hand drill on lead so I like the 1 3/4" or 2.25" wedge for FA work.

Now that I know you can buy a 1 7/8" 4 piece I will switch over to the expansion bolt.

No offense taken Brian, I guess I just got the itch and took what I had on hand, all the other stuff is plated and never sees the bolt bag.

I always assumed that in granite a compression or wedge (SS of course) was the best option for the high quality rock. The 5 piece powers have a smaller bolt diameter and so I assumed that to be a deciding factor.

I always place 5 piece powers at Pinnacles (up to 3.5 inch) and have always assumed that due to the nature of the rock a expansion bolt was appropriate (yet I have seen alot of wedgies there too).

What about spinners in the hole? I have had pinnacles rock blow out on me in the base of the hole, inserted the expansion bolt and began to tighten...Spinner! The cone would not seat and the hole was fubar.

Have you guys ran into this problem? I have never had a problem with the wedge so that has been my go to bolt everywhere else.

Thanks for the input and all of the great comments!

Cheers
Mucci

Nate D

climber
San Francisco
Sep 23, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
1/4" less of hand drilling would be nice.
But, not using stainless and feeling responsible to constantly replace the bolts in the years to come, with such limited time...

What's your guys' best guestimate for the lifespan of plated steel vs. SS?

After a very very quick search, this source appears to have your ammo for cheaper than what you are paying, Minerals:

http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/po3di.html

POWER-BOLT Hex Head 3/8" x 1-7/8" 6911 06911 (50)
Per Box of 50
Availability: Usually ships the same business day.
6911 $40.99

POWER-BOLT Hex Head 3/8" x 2-1/4" Stainless 5910 05910 (50)
Per Box of 50
5910 $229.99 (OUCH indeed. Although using these would encourage me to place fewer bolts, which is a bonus - not that I place that many in the first place.)

And the Fixe Triplex SS bolt 3/8" x 2-1/4" are really upwards of $7+ a pop??
But I suppose they are easier to place on lead, no?

Hence the attraction to SS wedge bolts.

Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
mucci (and others), the idea that stud/wedge bolts are stronger because the bolt diameter is thicker is incorrect - they are actually weaker (just look at the stats on the bolt info pages) - although not significant since they are both really strong. Somehow people forget that the threads themselves reduce the diameter of a stud bolt...

To greatly reduce the chance of spinners with 5-piece bolts:

 drill the hole deep enough - which means extra deep for soft rock, since rock broken off while pounding the bolt in fills up the end of the hole
 clean the hole really well
 tap the bolt in just shy of all the way, or all the way with your last hit. Do NOT keep hitting the bolt after it's fully seated - the only place that energy is going is to break rock out at the end of the bolt, increasing the chance of spinners
 don't use 5-pieces at all in really soft sandstone
 use shorter 5-pieces to reduce the chance of spinners - if the rock is good enough. So for Indian Creek replacement, I've used 1/2 x 2.75" instead of 3.75" (or 4.75"). But not for soft rock out there, just good stuff. In pretty good rock at Red Rocks, I got some spinners with 3/8 x 3.5", but never with 1/2 x 2.75"

Nate, the Triplex bolts are all 12mm, there are no 3/8" versions.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
Thanks for the word Greg.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 23, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
Hey Mucci, SS wedgies are just fine.

For replacing, sure the expensive 5-piece SS powerbolts are fine if the ASCA (ie climbing community) is buying them, but for ground up ascents by working class folks (or for good guys like yourself who replace old 1/4"ers at your own expense), SS wedgies are great.

Some folks will give them a bad rap because you can't re-use the hole... but that's a moot point since there's a good likelyhood that the SS bolts will last longer than civilization. The stuff is like styrofoam in terms of it's persistence in the environment. It is simply not going to corrode in place like the Sierras.

Austentic stainless steels (ie 304 and 316) have only one real enemy- stress corrosion cracking- and this only occurs in moist, chloride environments like indoor pool buildings and sea cliffs.

For drilling on lead in the Sierra, I place 316 SS 3/8" wedgies (I use 316 because of the extra nickel and added 2% molybdenum that controls pit corrosion). And why not use the best wedgies available- my arm will fall off before I go broke placing them by hand!!

This is definitely a better option (IMHO) than placing a carbon steel 5-piece and leaving it up to someone else to pony up the money and time to replace it in 40 years.

Since I work in the industry, I am able to get some good pricing on these bolts:

304 SS 3/8 wedgie for $1 after tax
316 SS 3/8 wedgie for $1.75 after tax

It would be a good experiment to remove a SS wedgie after 200 years in the rock and analyze it for corrosion and perform tensile and shear tests. Of course, we'll all be dead by then!

Some good reading on the different types of SS:

http://www.sppusa.com/reference/white_paper/wp_ss.pdf

Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 23, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
And just as a note:

Petzl hangers are 316ss, as are the new Marine grade Fixe hangers. As far as I know, the rest of available stainless hangers are 304, but I don't know for sure.
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Sep 23, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
You know Mucci you owe me 2 beers now, 1 for the flat bar attack and 2 for letting Minerals use my internet for all the up to date bolt placement. I'm more involved in this thread then even I realized. I better go clip those new bolts ( when the temps, cool a bit)..
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 24, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
Anyone have a link or picture of a wedgie or wedge bolt so I can seen the diff between that and a 5-piece Power?

Still taking notes here...
slobmonster

Trad climber
berkeley, ca
Sep 24, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
Wedge anchor:



Powers Powerbolt (aka Rawl aka "5-piece")


Mcmaster.com part# 92405A200

Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 24, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
Thanks-

So what actually defines the "wedge bolt" then?

In other words, what specifically distinguishes wedge bolts (or "wedgies") from similar fasteners... since "wedging" action by the sleeve and cone occurs in both types? Anyone?

Or... did Footloose get off on the wrong foot... Are 5-piece Powers also "wedgies" ? !!

edit: ahh, 5-piece Powers must be "wedgies" and somewhere above I must've gotten astray...

edit: ah, thanks slob, so "wedge bolts" refer specifically to stud bolts whose sleeve is fixed. Terminology can be a bastard sometimes. Wanted to be clear. Thx.
slobmonster

Trad climber
berkeley, ca
Sep 24, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
As the pictures show, the wedge bolt is a one piece stud; the little sleeve bit cannot be removed. When placed, there are threads visible. And as noted ad nauseam above, these cannot be removed from the rock, once placed.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Sep 24, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
Josh,

Good work on the replacement!

Greg,

What's your experience been with removing rusted Powerbolts/Rawlbolts (4-5 piece)?
Do the bolt threads lock into the cone, and then the bolt just spins when you put a wrench in the head?
Or does the cone lock better into the sleeve and the bolt unscrews from the sleeve?
What if the sleeve rusts out, deep in the hole - then the cone would spin?

I know that Bruce and I have had difficulty in softer rock (Pinnacles) removing Powerbolts/Rawlbolts - they would spin when we turned the hex head.
We had to pry the bolt outwards to engage the cone into the sleeve, while turning the head at the same time.
The spinning could be due to an oversized hole in the softer rock of Pinnacles.
But it is also a fairly dry place, so rust in the threads was probably not much of an issue.
susu

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Sep 24, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
Great work Mucci - Very much appreciate this labor of love and all the great input!
Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 24, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
Hey Clint,

I've unscrewed old 5-pieces in Owens (maybe 80-100 total?), Pinnacles (about 10-15), Tuolumne (about 10 or so), Josh (about 5?), Red Rocks (about 10), and maybe a few others here and there. Of those, I probably only extracted or drilled through the sleeve on about 10 of them - mostly I was switching Leeper hangers to modern hangers, replacing cold shuts, simply removing the bolt to turn a 3-bolt anchor to a 2-bolt, etc.

For cone spinners - I only saw a handful of those, and they always unscrewed by outward pull plus unscrewing (I often would just clip in with a draw, lean back, and unscrew the bolt).

I have had about 10 just plain snap off when unscrewing, always at the point where the threads start on the bolt core.

When the rust was super bad, I found that the sleeve would disintegrate into fragments, which sometimes jammed the cone so you couldn't funk it out. That's when I discovered that a 36V drill plus a 1/2" bit will just blast through the old bolt - much easier, especially since they were mostly crux bolts that should be 1/2" anyway. Not much use for hand drilling at Pinnacles though. A few times, I used custom sleeve extractors that Mike White made - they worked fine for a bit, then bent/wore out the little catch ears. Bernie & Shaggy used to pound a nail into the sleeve along the split in the sleeve, curling it in, and then using a long hook or needlenose pliers to pull the sleeve.

The worst rust was often on bolts at Owens where other bolts right nearby were in much better shape.

I thought someone (you?) suggested screwing in the correct size lag screw with a hanger, funking out the sleeve, then funking out the cone like normal (after tapping the cone in to disengage from the sleeve of course).

I'm sure some others here have experience and some more (or better) tips. It's a very good topic, since many of us will be replacing more and more rusted 3/8" 5-pieces in the coming years...
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Sep 25, 2009 - 05:46am PT
Thanks for the beta, Greg - you've been there and back with the sleeves!

I've used a lag screw/bolt to extract the lead sleeves for Star-Dryvin bolts.
Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

climber
Calyfucinphornya
Sep 25, 2009 - 10:00am PT
Thanks for the solid effort on the bolt replacement. I have climbed this route probably once a year for the last several. Some of the cleanest rock at the leap. Nice route. I looked at the run out bolts as I passed and deemed them old but in good shape! Interesting (read scary) to see how easy they actually came out. Seems pretty clear if one of those potential big falls were to be had, the bolts would have ripped.
I owe you a beer
Cheers
Aidan
Stewart Johnson

climber
Sep 27, 2009 - 11:15am PT
do we ever try to contact the first ascent team before working on their routes? just wondering and thanks for the retro.
more routes thins the herd.
thanks again!
Dirka

Trad climber
SF
Sep 27, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
That is sweet! Thanks for all your hard work. I love how you "realized that you were having a good time". Bump!
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
Stewart-

It depends on a few things:

If certain fixed pro i.e. pins need to be removed and replaced (in another location due to rock quality)-yes.

If you are going to change the nature of the climbing, like adding a bolt where a blown out pin placement is- yes.

Outside of that, on a standard rebolting job there is no need to notify the FA of an upgrade in hardware.

Of course there are situations where you might want to let them know, out of courtesy.

Mucci
Salamanizer

Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
Sep 28, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
Good job on the re-bolting Mucci. That routes been in the cross hairs of a few people for re-bolting for the last couple weeks. It's great to see that someone actually beat them to it. It means the local climbing community is aware, able and willing to get out there and upgrade these old routes.

Next time you're thinking of upgrading a route, give me a shout. I can give you a hand, also I have access to a lot of stuff to help get the job done. I also have a sh#t tone of beta for routes at the Leap.

Again, right on for the replacement.

Routes that have gotten new shiny bolts at the leap this year.
Fear No Evil,
Psychedelic Direct,
Epitaph,
and... Hemorrhoids in Flight.

Round of Applause for that.
Prod

Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
Oct 3, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
I just needed to have a 69th post.

Prod.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Dec 15, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
Hey Nate, thanks for posting the links for the Rawl/Powers bolts! Those prices are way better that what we were paying for the non-stainless 3/8” x 1 7/8”. I didn’t bother to search for better prices and just went with the local supplier that George has previously used. I’ve still got a box of ‘em left, but will order from the Internet next time! Thanks!

Yeah, the stainless bolts ain’t cheap!
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