not willing to relinquish this land

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hooblie

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 19, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fire19-2009aug19,0,3207658.story

an invasion by any other name is an invasion. we should be able to tramp around in our own forest without fear of being under armed.
this is not about pot, it's about natural law: title to a land goes to those who defend it. i say kick 'em out and take it back.

i'm saying there are enough tree huggers in this country to stomp every creek in the forest and commit to doing it again next year.
that could be disuasive. defend the privacy of your home, but stand for access to the public domain.

i concluded long ago that you WILL get all the BS you agree to put up with. these guys don't have my tacit approval
no matter what i have might have in common with their maveric nature.

don't call yourself green or patriotic in front of me if you condone this ... i'm agin it
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 19, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
If we legalize it then tax it we could help the economy and squash this problem. How bout that?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Aug 19, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
I don't see anywhere in that article where it even IMPLIED that the gov't is goint to seize land. WTF?

It does point out one reason that Forest Service and Rangers now need to carry sidearms though.
hooblie

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
it's the growers that HAVE seized it. can you argue that i am any more than marginally safer tromping around amongst these guys on my side of the border than on their side? and would i even consider cruising around in their growing regions. i am not happy about eco-damage on either side of the border.

it doesn't have to have granite on it for me to want it back. you think being treated like a suspect for showing up at the airport wearing shoes is bad, wait till you're the only non-combatant in the forest, trying to prove you aren't a suspect. bring back the grizzlies and wolves, but humans, in the form of armed paranoids outside the social contract, with big bucks and accountability to their bosses at stake, give me the willies. particularly when some of these desperate minions know how disposable they are
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Aug 19, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
Well then, hooblie, I agree wholeheartedly.

Last year a Park Service ranger was shot in the leg by a cartel grower here in the Bay Area. Right in the Los Gatos hills!!!

Messed up!
apogee

climber
Aug 19, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
There is a spring here in my nearby mountains that has been used for years by people who enjoy good, clean mountain water- people bring their big water bottles and fill up, and bring it back home.

The spring was closed earlier this year because a pot farm uphill of it had contaminated the spring with pesticide and fertilizer run off.

These are our lands, and they are being 'seized' by others for their exclusive use. If we get upset about gear being cached near the Hulk, why aren't we more pissed off about this far greater abuse?
jstan

climber
Aug 19, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
Here in SB we have heard of several incidents where hikers felt the need to flee when armed individuals were encountered. There may be a simple straightforward way to deal with this.

The water.

Where there is little or no water you will not find agriculture. And the growth cycle is sufficiently long that you can effectively prevent this if each site with water is closely visited every three months or so.

Sites with water are fairly well mapped but now that there have been recent burns volunteers could help the FS methodically walk the areas and record GPS and visual data for every substantial water source.

The FS could then prepare helicopter landing sites where needed so that minimal time and effort would be needed to provide blanket surveillance. Indeed where needed, controlled burns could keep the most critical areas along streams easily apparent from the air.

EIS would be needed, I am sure, but I think the need is now apparent.

And yes. My opinion is quite unimportant but I have to say I am beginning to agree. We have almost as much medical data on the medical risks posed by marijuana as we have on tobacco. (It does tend to make normal people become climbers but that is what we have jails for.)

We used to enforce prohibitions on the numbers rackets and alcohol but have since turned them into big money makers for the state,

It may well be time……….

scarcollector

climber
CO
Aug 19, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
I'm with you.
These growers, particularly from the cartels have no concern for the land or people. (There was an article in Harpers Magazine recently about the drug cartels that was just scary.)

I don't think that the legalization for the supply side of marajuana has caught up with the demand side yet. Legal to sell (w/ prescription) in CA but not to grow on any larger scale = supply demand imbalance.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Aug 19, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
The money is too good. It's a multi bilion dollar industry in California.

The growers will find ways to support our demand. If we can't change the demand, legalize and tax is the only way.

The problem with the tax is that I bet the price drops with legalization. How many of your "contractor," or "landscaper," friends would go out of business with legalization? That's an interesting question. The answer should be the same regardless. The stuff does more harm as an illegal substance than it would if legal.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 19, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
(It does tend to make normal people become climbers but that is what we have jails for.)

HEY I SAW WHAT YOU DID THERE JSTAN....:-) LOL
hooblie

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
jstan, that is a line for the ages. rush to the copyright office
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Aug 19, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
This pisses me off! I think we as users need to take some action and help the law enforcment agencies out by reporting what we see. You know when a stream has been diverted. You know the signs that something is up. Why not help the agencies out a little and report what you see. I know I am.
jstan

climber
Aug 19, 2009 - 02:30pm PT
RJ:
I was thinking the Los Padres where this camp was located.

For the whole state probably only cutting down the profit margin will help.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 19, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
Rj, They have bigger guns
Timid TopRope

Social climber
Paradise, CA
Aug 19, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
Legalizing it should be a great dissinsentive for cartel-style grows. It would also lower the profit margin on gang activity. Simplistic? Maybe.
hooblie

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
come one rocjox, let loose with both barrels, then join the cause. you know i was calling you out.
you'd be right if this was some other country where the counter insurgents had to be inserted and supported like say, idunno... but

we've got the homeland advantage. the dry nature of this end of the country turns it into a linear patrol of the watercourses. we'll never find the spot growers that can sustain a few plants with stored or hauled water, but those aren't the guys with hired guns and industrial scale pollution.

i watched the scene in humbolt go from agrarian idealists, to ambitious commercialists preyed upon by urban thugs, to indoor pros and gentrified hobbyists. it was sad to see a loose and loopy culture turn furtive and insular for a while but the scene matured.

now it's queer but strangely benign to see pensioners with a clearly marked hydroponics service van parked in the driveway for a couple of days, while the local utility district merrily strings new higher capacity power lines over the hill. it ain't green but that's the way we have it.

that doesn't make me feel invaded and anxious to muster an effective push back or else surrender territory
that deserves to be restored to the pastoral ambiance that i associate with the homeland.

a country full of stoners, disappointing but i don't dwell on it. no response to the ride of paul revere? i can't take it.
what would david brower do, calculate the acreage and throw in the towel?
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Aug 19, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
A few years ago, in the middle of winter, I stumbled on a huge growing op off I-80. No plants, but active irrigation lines, mounds of chemicals and fertilizers and an entire archaeological site ruined by mexican growers. I had run into another grow site, same drainage of the American, a few years before, but smaller operation. Couple guys, some tubing, friendly, but serious.

I ended up reporting the mexican growers. Didnt care that they grew the herb. But they trashed a site I loved, that once supported a small town of about 5000 people in the 1850'2 during the gold rush. Miles of plastic tubing, trash and chemicals all over the hillside.

LE told me if I waited till they had plants, I would have been given a reward. I just wanted LE to bring in a copter and remove the trash. They swarmed the area with camo and assault rifles, but refused to haul out the trash. No cash for cleanup.

I Report those trashing wilderness areas to grow.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 19, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
Simplistic? Maybe.

No, not at all. While legalization is obviously not as simple as the President signing a "Pot is now legal" bill, some form of legalization is the only way you'll get the gangs out of those mountains.

The current situation is an inevitable result of the "War On Drugs" and will continue as long as that idiotic war continues. (And it doesn't just affect the mountain wilderness -- there's a thousand times as much danger from drug gangs in the urban wilderness).

But good luck getting it changed. How many politicians in the US do you think are willing to stand up and say "We've got to decriminalize the marijuana industry"?
Mike.

climber
Aug 19, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
More collateral damage in the "war on drugs."

"Marijuana Tax Act"...that's hilarious. DuPont, The Miracles of Science, er, The Power of Money. Excuse me, I have to be go retch my guts out.
jstan

climber
Aug 19, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
calculate the acreage and throw in the towel

ta da ta da

calculate the acreage ta da and throw in the towel

dah tuh da ............ da


Dang! Hooblie's got rhythm.
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
second verse same as the first. has anything changed? are trip wires and armed aliens a matter for the national guard... yet?

this makes me as livid as ever, and i've otherwise got pretty good tolerance for bs, IMO


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DRUG_WAR_POT_FARMS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Mar 2, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
Step 1: Boycott it or only buy from known non-invasive sources. Don't be part of the problem.

Step 2: Spread the word to all your friends who use it that, unless they are certain that their supply comes from a non-invasive farm, until it's legal they're f*#king up the forest and bringing invaders to the country.

Step 3: Legalize it. Vastly increase competition and take away the profit margin and the need to defend the farms.

Step 4: Then go in and clean up the few remaining farms in the forest.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 2, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
Free trade, all natural, no preservatives and hormones free range pot?

"...Millions of marijuana plants" I'm calling bullsh#t on that story. Is that the best they can do? All those alledged millions of pot plants and they get a picture which shows a small container of Green Light Many purpose dust, which is produced for peoples gardens. That must have been an exceedingly small pot farm to have such a small container. What is that? 5 plants? The picture could have been in the reporters backyard. As far as the story "illegal fertilizers", WTF is that? Anything NOT made by Monsanto? Total bullsh#t.


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A 1lb shaker can is doing millions of pot acres? WTF? Thats like Jesus and doing the Bread thing to feed the multitudes. Can we then assume that Jesus is the Mexican responsible here that he can stretch a 1 lb can of garden dust to stretch over a million plants? W00T!

....anyway, once we get all the Pot users rounded up and locked in jail, all this will disappear anyway. Make sure that there's some climbing walls so everyone feels right at home though.

This story was probably planted by one of the police agencys -like the Forest Service police, to increase their budget and expand their powers.
myterious

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 2, 2010 - 03:52pm PT

If we'd actually enforce our imigration laws, we would not have these problems. We knowingly and willingly allow an eromous black labor market to exists, and then fret when those in the the in black labor market turn to criminal and destrucive activities. Both political parties have been criminally negligent in not enforcing immigration laws, and now our public land and citizen pay the price.


MM
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
these little tit for tat skirmishes don't please me. the status quo is well served by agencies, user groups, and growers who enjoy inflated prices by current policies. the conundrum feeds into the hands of medical dispenseries and their customers...i don't care to debate such things from the viewpoint of tired old constituencies.

we, i mean WE the users and owners, are impacted by the militarization of the public lands where lame bureaucratic responses at the token level (meaning rangers with side arms) fail to solve problems which demand the attention at the full alert patriot level, and WE are caught hiding behind the vested interests of neutered government minions. edit: unfair, they're outgunned, the higher ups decide.

bolting wars were hardly preparation for real turf wars involving what kind of assumptions will prevail regarding the public lands.

am i off the mark here, or should we make room for foriegn cartels in the land of many uses?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 3, 2010 - 01:14am PT
What are you saying Hooblie? I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Mar 3, 2010 - 07:34am PT
If we'd actually enforce our imigration laws, we would not have these problems.

There are plenty of born Americans perfectly happy to trash public lands for their personal profit.

DMT
enjoimx

Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 07:41am PT
If we'd actually enforce our imigration laws, we would not have these problems. We knowingly and willingly allow an eromous black labor market to exists, and then fret when those in the the in black labor market turn to criminal and destrucive activities. Both political parties have been criminally negligent in not enforcing immigration laws, and now our public land and citizen pay the price.


MM

Well yeah, but...the problem is more in that there is a huge demand for an illegal good.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Mar 3, 2010 - 07:42am PT
Prohibitioners never ever GET THAT.

Ever.

DMT
Anastasia

Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
Mar 3, 2010 - 08:22am PT
Really legalize smoking, make it much easier for people to legally grow it on their land, create an easier distribution process, plus tax and regulate the process. It will create much needed revenue for the state, create jobs, and... It will no longer be profitable to grow it on hidden illegal farms run by shady characters.

I know a few folks that would love to make it one of their cash crops. Yet because the state has not clearly legalize growing, they can't risk it.

AFS
enjoimx

Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 10:03am PT
Legalization would also relinquish some of the stigma surrounding weed, stigma that ironically makes it attractive to some people. I think, for all the people worried about possible negative social effects of legalized pot, its very possible that legalization would decrease the attractiveness of the drug, much like what is going on now with cigarettes and alcohol, both being demonized for their negative health effects.
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 10:34am PT
dingus, nothing but net! i hear it can get a little testy in truffle country, what is it ginko in the east?
that uranium frenzy post war sure impacted the colorado plateau.

you spoze post legalization it will be sooo cheap that the encroachment will be strictly by the docile, and pushback by the budget strapped agencies will be able to tidy up just fine or should a CULTURAL message of zero tolerance be sent in the present tense?

no worries couch, it's a rant. if you're not already prone to incitement, i can be a little abstract.
maybe just look for rimes, double entendre, cagey conjugations... brazen alliteration.
there's something for everyone! you tease ok i hope :)

notice the dropped period on final paragraphs? brilliant. ahead of it's time
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Mar 3, 2010 - 10:44am PT
I'll state it again - prohibition doesn't work. A cultural message of zero tolerance DOESN'T EXIST.

Now wax on brother.

DMT
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 3, 2010 - 10:47am PT
No Hooblie, I just learned last night that the Forest service police have put cameras on all the national forest development roads around here. Last year they took a trackhoe and dug deep pits on all the logging spur roads off the main gravel road of a road I've been using extensively. At the time, I figured that they just wanted the roads to disappear and the forest to naturally regenerate. 2 weeks ago I was up hiking into my climbing area and when I came out, bumped into an armed forest service patrol....something I find new, strange, unneeded and unwelcome. Yet I did know one of the guys and we did the hail fellow well met thing.....

..now I'm thinking that they were blocking off the little side roads so that they can monitor and supervise us subjects better as we parade about the Kings forest.

When I see stories like that linked above, it reminds me that my lil brother, who works for the federal government, often send stories into the papers. One time, they sent in this huge press release, and the newspaper printed it word for word with the exception of the added first paragraph suggesting that they had been doing investigative journalism, and the byline. IT WAS THE HEADLINE FRONT PAGE STORY! and took up most of the front page and was continued on the back pages.

That bullshit story is most likely a press release to get you fired up so that when they lock down the forests and it's worse than anything Orwell could dream up in 1984, you are compliant.
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 10:52am PT
^^^ exactly the price i'm unwilling to pay. we must rid ourselves of these rats.

glad to see your temperature rising

~~~~~

"A cultural message of zero tolerance DOESN'T EXIST."

to stop the abuse of the forest?... polluting the streams?... setting booby traps?... burning 75 sq. miles at a time? ... threatening hikers?

quit casting it as a stoner thing, i'm not talking about our right to party
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 3, 2010 - 11:04am PT
OK, so you're saying that the government, and their thug like armed intrusions, are more dangerous than the pot growers this artificial is decrying?
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 11:07am PT
part and parcel of the degradation. i'm reacting to the whole militarization that's afoot in the hobbit.

the mexican army has it's hands full. their late response was predated by a tolerant environment. the little people naively
nurtured the establishment of the gangs by neglecting to call bs at the grass roots level. we should take a lesson.

waiting for politicians to come around to seeing it cheech's way, proposing that the problem will dry up and blow away
when cartel accountants call for layoffs in the forest cause "pot's so cheap it doesn't pencil out"
is NON-RESPONSIVE at best
noshoesnoshirt

climber
Arkansas, I suppose
Mar 3, 2010 - 11:16am PT
Hooble said:

"you spoze post legalization it will be sooo cheap that the encroachment will be strictly by the docile..."

Yah, that'll never work. I mean, just look at all the illicit tobacco crops blighting our forests.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
Enjomix, good point

Legalization would also relinquish some of the stigma surrounding weed, stigma that ironically makes it attractive to some people. I think, for all the people worried about possible negative social effects of legalized pot, its very possible that legalization would decrease the attractiveness of the drug, much like what is going on now with cigarettes and alcohol, both being demonized for their negative health effects.
Cloudraker

Sport climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
You will never manage to find all the major water sources and growing spots in a state the size of Cali, its flat impossible, there aren't enough helicopters, patrol officers and other resources in the WORLD to cover Cali alone. A man can actually cover only a few acres a day at most. How many people would it take to cover 100,000 square miles, at what, 640 acres per square mile, assuming visits twice a year in the growth season, a ten hour day and a budget of lets say 10 trillion dollars?

High res satellite imagery with near-infrared band(s) covering the exttent of California forests would do the trick for advanced detection of outdoor grow ops. Collect early summer imagery, look for landcover veg features in the forest that are anomalous, send in armed airborne drones to have a closer look, followed by narco agents for the pre-harvest crop tear down and bust.

Problem solved!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
Last summer while hiking out of the Sierras over Sawmill Pass I came across what looked to be the remnants of a grow operation. It was several miles from the trailhead and kinda creepy being that far in not knowing if there were booby traps or guys lurking about. We saw drip lines, buckets, cooking stuff and propane tanks. They picked a good canyon, Sawmill sees very little traffic now that it's unmaintained.

A few years back while crawling through old mines north of the Saline Valley we crawled into a large chamber accessed by a vertical shaft that was a meth lab, totally freaky coming upon what looked like a mad scientists lab 100 feet underground. When we climbed out of the mine we kept our heads on a swivel looking and waiting for the cooks to return. We beat feet and after a long soak in the hot springs I told a LEO about our discovery and he said the Inyos have become a popular place for clandestine labs. That was probably 6-7 years ago, maybe it's gotten better by now.
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