| Messages 1 - 31 of total 31 in this topic |
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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Ever since I helped Denny Moorehouse (the DM of DMM) push start the Cilley mobile, while fighting off Pterendons, I should have been expecting this.
Hopefully they will make good stuff that will keep the market competitive. And not just yet another inferior knockoff. How big will they go?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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I owe a little bit of DMM gear, and would probably say its the highest quality (and oftentimes in the states priciest!) gear I own. Kinda like Arcteryx, you love it... when you can get it!
The new offsets, the phantom crabs, shadow locking, their 'pons.... sweet, sweet stuff! Right up there with BD, if more form than function sometimes ^^ but i'm kind of a tech weenie ahyhow (got called that today at work... ouch).
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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Hopefully not made in China like camalots.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Is anyone using the Revolver biner? Or, can anyone afford the Revolver?
(thanks to J Werlin for the steer on using italics, if the above comes out with "afford" in italics)
edit: Yay! it works!
edit again: so how did I miss the whole thread on the physics of the Revolver? I am keeping my post to celebrate my intrepid use of italics, however, for the main question, nevermind...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Spin the revolver and take your chances, kinda like big wall climbing...
maybe for industrial applications (climbing schools, gyms) but that could be a sword of damocles, that pin, that you cant see, will wear out, why bother?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 15, 2009 - 05:26am PT
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Jaybro,
They go up to 114mm (4.49"). God there are so many cams on the market.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 22, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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I am posting my views here on this thread as the other has drifted.
Today at the OR show I got to compare the Camalots and Dragons. One of the first things I found interesting is that the patent for the double axle cam expired in 2004. It has taken 5 years for another double axial cam to be presented. To me this lack of competition implies two things, 1) Single cams still have a lot potential 2) BD had some damn good patents that protected other aspects such as the stem.
The first thing I noticed about the new Dragons is that they were noticeably lighter than the Camalots. I was told that they are about 10% on the larger units and less on the smaller units. There are two areas for the difference. The first is in the thickness of the lobes and second is the milling. While the Camalot lobes are milled with vertical slots (lighting holes) the Dragons have similar slots but the thickness of the cam is tapered.
The other area where weight is saved is in the stem. The Dragons utilize a single wire for the stem with a T swag to form a loop for clipping a biner. At the other end the wire is either swaged into the axle housing (smaller units) or have swag on the end that is then press fit into axle housing.
Camalots use a wire that is doubled up to form the stem and clipping loop.
The axle housing on the larger Dragons is milled with lightening holes.
Both SLCD use similar triggers and spring systems.
The contact angle on the Dragons is the same as Friends 13.75 while the Camalots is 14.5.
Dragons will probably not be available until sometime next year and be around the $75-$80 range.
Overall - there is going to be some really good competition. If I were to be replacing my rack tomorrow and the Dragons were available I would buy a set.
The thread posted below by munge has turn into a "made in your azz" rant. It would be great if this thread could kept to a technical discussion.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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I have reservations about the stem cable decision. It seems like a strictly competitive trade-off accepting complexity to shave weight as opposed to the stem design itself being a functionally superior or more innovative. Swaging isn't rocket science, but to my mind the design doesn't yield enough weight savings to justify the complexity. They could have stopped at better axles and lighter cam lobes and still had me.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 23, 2009 - 06:08am PT
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The decision behind the stem was due to several reasons. The biggest was probably patent issues (BD had subsequent patents on different aspects of the cam). As such, DMM needed to design a stem that would not infringe yet still be functional. But you are correct it is more complex and more then likely costly.
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FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Jul 23, 2009 - 07:33am PT
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"$75-$80 range."
How about them apples!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 23, 2009 - 08:45am PT
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A #2 camalot costs 70 bucks now, cost seems slighly higher but competitive.
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Dingus Milktoast
climber
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Jul 23, 2009 - 08:56am PT
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I like DMM gear A LOT. My DMM crampons are the best thing since sliced calf muscles.
But that price tag is ungodly.
Can buy x2 Friend set and augment with #5 tech friend and still have money left over for a Peets coffee.
AND a lb of beans!
DMT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 23, 2009 - 10:27am PT
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The biggest was probably patent issues
Do you or anyone else know if this is really the case relative to the stem design?
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 23, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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Joe, I was told this information on the stems directly from Steve Petro. So I would say it is accurate. I would have to ask my contacts at BD about what patents are still in affect. Although a reverse search on the Camalot would yield that info as well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 23, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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Scared, thanks - that probably explains it, got to work around what you can't implement directly. A legal driver for the design decision makes me even less happy than a competitive/weight one, but it sounds like their hands were tied if they wanted to market something. C'est la vie.
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Jul 23, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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I also posted this on the other thread and like the tone here better.
"I held them yesterday at the show and I gotta say they look cool. The 3-dimensional cut of the metal is pretty neat looking.
But I'm much more into function over form and pulling the trigger of a camalot is much, much more satisfyingly smooth. These guys are stiff and clunky in comparison.
No thanks.
edit to question why so many hate BD? Always been good to me."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 23, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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For me, mainly because from the first version of the Camolots to the C4s I've always found them to be rattly with a sloppy feel in all respects and I've never cared for the thin axles.
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Jul 23, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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with all due respect to reps & climbing co. people, DMM does have the best slogan/life mantra:
climb now, work later.
DMM: I ♥ your nuts too, esp the offset ones ; P
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 23, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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I don't hate BD at all. But I think the C4s are the first generation of camalots that are worth their weight and deserve some limited preference over other cams (at least down to .75 or .5).
I need to get a DMM cam in my mitts before deciding, but that company makes some solid shite.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 23, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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Clay, - "But I'm much more into function over form and pulling the trigger of a camalot is much, much more satisfyingly smooth. These guys are stiff and clunky in comparison. "
I played will all of the cams and noticed quite a bit of difference in how well they pulled. It was like Goldilocks, some stiff, some soft, some just right. I chatted with Steve about this difference. He noted that these were all prototypes (which was evident as the trigger bar on one cam was a straight bar) and that DMM has not quite nailed down the spring tension. As such, I expect the spring issue to be refined.
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sowr
Trad climber
CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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DMM use the hot forging process a lot! There are advantages to hot forging over machining, grain structure flows with the form when the metal is forged, not so when machined from stock (as with Camalots).
I must confess, I have five Camalots in my closet with broken trigger wires - this, and the fact that they have been through quite a few major redesigns over the years has turned me off Camalots. My Friends just keep on going...
Personally, and also speaking professionally (I've been a mechanical engineer for 34 years and work for NASA) DMM design and quality are second to none.
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truclimber
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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I like it. As patriotic as the next american. The euros have just been doing things a little longer. Exp points to them.
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Piton Ron
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 18, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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I love DMM, the BMW of climbing hardware, but got side tracked at OR and didn't see the Camalikes.
Time will tell, but my money is on the free market system.
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sowr
Trad climber
CA
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Aug 19, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Truclimber, I have a confession to make - I'm a dual citizen; US and UK, so it's gear from Llanberis and SUV from Solihull.
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kiwi
Trad climber
Olympia, WA
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Aug 28, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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to expensive, but I like how they match the C4's in color, i.e. the #2 is yellow, the # 1 is red the 3 is blue the 4 is grey. they are complete knockoffs.
DMM is overrated, the revolver is a interesting design but hard as hell to clip and too expensive.
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NutellaJunkie
Trad climber
Adirondacks, NY
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Aug 28, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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Highest quality? hmmm..... and 75 bucks it ridiculous dude! I'll stick with BD and Metolius ;)
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Aug 28, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
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if it turns out to be a camalotkiller (or at least camalotmarketbiter), it means karma's coming around back at them.
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ShibbyShane
Trad climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Nov 30, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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So when are these due out on the market? Or at least, when can we be expecting reviews from people who've actually used them on rock?
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Pate
Trad climber
The Lost Highway
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Nov 30, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
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DMM products are sleek and sexy, and undoubtedly state of the art. I'd love to set some of those cams some day. I have had a chance to swing some ice tools now and again and they've been sweet, although they didn't compare to my Cobras. DMM has such a fatal flaw in their pricing. Here is a shot of most of my free-rack, and you can see how much DMM product I've been able to afford over the last 20 or so years. And those were given to me by my mom, who asked the guy at the gear counter at REI what her climber son would like for Christmas. To tell you the truth I would have been way more stoked with a dozen or so ovals for the same price.
edit: I know you guys are all jealous of the old style Camalots aren't you? Not exactly state of the art on pate's sling. And yes, I place those hexes frequently.
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| Messages 1 - 31 of total 31 in this topic |
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