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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 4, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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Just read this and made me think a little too much.... jb
"The 4th of You Lie" by Jimmie Beason (Osage/Mvskoke)
Every year on the 4th of You Lie (July), patriotic Americans engage in
their multiple colored foray of pyromania by blowing up fireworks to
celebrate the birth of the United Snakes.
This is appropriate as it's a metaphor for Indigenous genocide. The fuse of
colonization was lit and exploded with Manifest Destiny and conquest
ripping through OUR freedom; a true Freedom that existed for thousands of
years before the European invasion of our continent.
Amerikkka's policies toward us have done nothing to help, only to destroy.
Treaties were made and signed with the "utmost honor" only to be broken. In
1492, it is estimated that 5 million Native people inhabited the Western
Hemisphere. By the 1800's our population was reduced to 600,000. At the end
of the 19th century--250,000.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NatNews/message/47386
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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bachar, it's sad to see you turn into a commie, anti-AmeriKan.
we are so screwed as a country with this crap and Bachar going Red on us.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Nice, John!
I'm not celebrating with fireworks, just salvia!
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dirtbag
climber
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While a certain amount of introspection and reflection is necessary and healthy, self-loathing is not.
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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True enough John. Sadly this has always been the way of man throughout the history of man. I prefer to focus on the good that eventually came of this in that had this not occurred, we wouldn't have been able to save the world in the 20th century.
Have a great forth!
Robb
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Dude, I didn't write it, I was just reading it.... I guess I think too much sometimes, sorry.
I'm a total free market capitalist by the way.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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i refuse to participate in 4th of july, veterans day, memorial day and presidents day because we were founded on LIES and DECEIT! Hang on, government check in the mail. Time to walk the walk, amiright?
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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sorry, John, just calling as I see 'em.
your shoes kick ass!
The crap you posted is still retro-historical crap though. No offense. It is interesting to look at stuff through the eyes of natives, but so is slavery, the holocaust, etc...Point is, I think we've reconciled pretty well and are doing pretty good. Although it's important to no forget our history, that f*#king crap is not worthy of posting on the 4th. The 4th celebrates beating down and shooting Brits in the face, not Injuns!
Our initial colonization would be more appropriate of your OP. On a side note, I'd like to kick Ward Churchill in the teeth, FWIW!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Let's ask my friend Lucy Parker.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Ask Todd Gordon.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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They got cool casinos probably, Wes.
If they don't they probably CHOOSE to live the native lifestyle, no?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Yawn.
Happy 4th of July!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
John Hancock
New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery
Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott
New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross
Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean
Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton
North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn
South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton
Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Social Darwinism @ work. Wish I could open a casino.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Yeah John, Don't think many of us natives "celebrate" this as a holiday. But then again, I don't dwell on the past, doesn't do any good, look to the future and how you can make it better! Hope things are good with you, you gonna be around say the 3rd weekend in "you lie", I'm comin' up!
Peace bro!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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You crack me up! You actually think that trading a sustainable lifestyle based on centuries of ancestral wisdom for genocide and "cool" casinos is reasonable.
FYI, the reservation land was chosen because it was the worst of the worst. The US Govt didn't put the natives there so they could "live a native life," they put them there to die
So what should we do, Wes, to reconcile the past? Just keep bitching and whining about how mean whitey is?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all white men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The remnants of my wife's tribe are not celebrating today. Last month they held a summit with the remains of the Canadian half of their tribe (officially declared 'extinct' in Canada) to develop a long term strategy for mitigating the effects of progressively 'diminished' (stolen) reservation lands and the segregating affects of 49th parallel and new international travel laws on the tribe and families.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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No whining for me... I'm going to a special fouth of July baseball game...
VS.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I think what a lot of you idiots fail to realize is that the BRITISH colonized this land and we kicked them out.
Then we kicked ass on Indians who were 'uncooperative' in our colonization.
Now, for all you stupid communist, minority sympythizers, what do you think would have happend to this continent (or the world) if we did not colonize and develop it the way we did?
Would it be a branch of China, Japan, or ze Germans? Would it have been better or worse?
schmucks!~
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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You crack me up John, watching the Dodger's right now, playing Los Padres.
Peace
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dude, I'll take schmuck over the flags of ignorance and racisim you're always waving here.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Master of the non-sequitur, you still have it!
Are you talking to me? No real reply?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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You crack me up John, watching the Dodger's right now, playing Los Padres.
Peace
It's a racist, American native-bashing sport....don't watch it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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No, wes, answer what you think would of come of this continent had we not colonized it?
Answer it, coward!!!!!
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Bluering for your next vacation may I suggest a tour of the Pine Ridge reservation. While you are there please ask the tribal folk if the chose the lifestyle imposed on them. Wake up and open your eyes. The mind may actually follow.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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While you are there please ask the tribal folk if the chose the lifestyle imposed on them.
What do the want? How are they oppressed? What would make them 'better'?
Tami...I know the answer.
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Why don't you go there and see for yourself. You yourself would never stand for that kind of life you blowhard fool!
Our government owes the tribals tens of billions that they refuse to forward or even account for. The highest infant mortality on the planet is on the Pine Ridge Reservation. Our Government turns a blind eye to their suffering so as to not acknowledge the debt owes to them.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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I wish you could too aldude. I could manage beverages, conventions, maintenance and of course security.
I can see it now, Dudeland Hotel, Casino and adult amusement park!
Too bad it's not gonna happen!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Answer my questions, Oli!
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Sorry too busy burning flags and crosses.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I CHOOSE to not live in squalor while I raise a family.
I CHOOSE to support myself without help from anyone.
I SELECT a place to live that meets these standards.
Oli, that's what I thought.....
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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The tribal folks have NONE of those choices that you tout and take for granted.
Of course that is what you thought.
You know so little yet talk so much.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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I miss Virginia Parker!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Really, Oli, they are forced to stay there????
This liberal crap is so old....either live like an Indian on your land in peace, or move and get a f*#king job like everyone else does!!!!
Don't bitch to me about oppression. The opportunity is there.
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blacksun
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, California
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It's important amongst the flag waving and hot-dogs to reflect on how this country got to be where it is today. I'm not talking about "whining" or some sort or feminine kumbi-ya ceremony as so many Righties love to visualize while propping up the paper thin exterior of their supposed "Real Man-TM" self images, but just reflection and remembrance of the FACTS so that the regrettable and in-humane acts committed in the name of our flag are NOT REPEATED.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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1491 is well worth a read.
I guess that bluering is white, young to middle aged and in reasonable health, came from a reasonably stable family background, finished high school if not some college, has a decent job, and would economically and culturally be considered middle class. It's unclear if an education in critical thinking was included in his many advantages.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Wes, you're surely wise (arrogant) enough to play this out, right? Ever play chess?
What do you think would have played out on this continent if the Yankee didn't CONSUME it?
Quit being a dick, play it out, smartguy. Surely you have some Utopian scenario that the Nazi's or Commie Chiners would have overlooked.
Lay it on me, egghead.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Yeah Blitzo, she was good family! Remember a choice trip once to the Valley with the likes of Shawn Curtis, Dave Wonderly, Mike Paul and I think Pat Ney. Met up with Virginia and Lucy, we had a gooooood time! Oh dem were the daze.
Peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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It's unclear if an education in critical thinking was included in his many advantages.
I pose the same question to you as I did Wes, hoser!
(I did take a symbolic logic class in college...dropped it, thought it was a bunch of crap!)
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Bluering has obviously never gone without or had to survive. Long hair, smokes dope, drinks, Christian, Republican?
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I gave up the dope, Blitzo......mostly.
When are you, Locker, TGT, and Lynne coming up here? Let's do it!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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You live in an imaginary world. While I appreciate your invitation to play, I have grown up things to do.
yeah, run away......
I live in an imaginary world where I constantly dwell on the plight of people who would have flourished and made a beautiful world if only the White Man hadn't arrived. A place where everybody lived in harmony and the Nazi's and Chiner's wouldn't dream of conquer.
whatever....
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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It's been a while since I've been up there. I used to live in Cupertino and work at Planet Granite.
I actually love the Bay Area.
Bluering, We'll meet some day and we'll have fun!
It's hot here in Joshua Tree and I want to blow something up!
Happy 4th of July!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Come up North, we can both blow something up......
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Bluering, I'm a native, have had family and friends live on the reservation, if it were all so simple like you make it sound, I doubt many Indians would choose to live that style of life. Some do have it good on the reservations, but most don't. What happened to the indigenous people of north america is perhaps worse than what has happened to others that have suffered genocide, slavery, oppression and other personal injustice. I don't live in the past and I've got things pretty dang good, but you should give this a rest, what you say(at least to me) is offensive and it seems like you're getting sucked into this topic without REALLY knowing what it is like for those that have suffered and continue to suffer as a result of what the US government has done for many, many years. I wish it were so simple for those people to leave thier reservations and, as you say, go get a phucking job, but it isn't. Chill on this, or at least take a break for a while.
Happy 4th of July
Peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ron, I would just like arrogant pricks like wes to tell me..well, I already asked the question.
It would be nice too, for my own enlightenment, for you to tell me how the gov't is keeping Natives down though. I just don't buy it. How is the gov't oppressing native Americans?
What do they want?
I appreciate your input.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oli, f*#k off! If you can't answer questions, why do I talk to you?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"What do you think would have played out on this continent if the Yankee didn't CONSUME it?"
It's an imaginary question, although it seems fair to suggest that European settlers in the Americas consumed if not devoured the first peoples, and the natural resources they found. My avocation is history, and many of the "what if" questions that one hears are nonsensical. Because that's not what actually happened, and it probably never would have happened. Historical currents and undercurrents are often far stronger than is apparent.
Most pre-1914 immigrants to the Americas, to North America or even to what is now the U.S.A. weren't of Anglo-Saxon heritage. Even those to New England, supposedly the Yankee homeland.
My ancestors (Norwegians) were the first Europeans known to have arrived here, in about 1,000 CE in L'Anse aux Meadows. They went home soon afterward. No real consequences.
Given what was happening in the Mediterranean and western Europe in the last half of the fifteenth century CE, and the sixteenth century, it was almost inevitable that Europeans would discover the temperate latitude Americas, and once here, that they would behave as they did. Many events may seem fortuitous in isolation, but the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French and eventually the English would all have shown up. There were many twists and turns along the way, and North America might well have ended up with much larger parts that are French or Spanish speaking. The English to some extent came in to pick up the slack of colonization as the others' energy flagged. The boundaries and forms of government might have been somewhat different. There's certainly nothing to say that "history" inexorably led us to where we are - but once Europeans were well rooted on the east coast and in central and south America, the rest was pretty likely.
As coz mentions, guns, germs and steel, combined with the dynamism (economic, governmental, technology, etc) of Europe at the time, led to a fairly probable result.
Modern estimates are that native populations declined by more than 90% within a century after first contact, due mostly to European diseases. But then, every army in history until World War I had more casualties from disease than injury.
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Keep waving the flag harder Bluering. Maybe the sound will help continue to drown out truth for you.
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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bluering
Trad climber
From: Santa Clara, Ca.
Come up North, we can both blow something up......
Inquiring minds don't want to know...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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you're an idiot, Oli.
Am I supposed to be ashamed of your last post? I'm not.
BTW I do have a flag waving outside....I'm such a rightwing tool!
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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"How is the gov't oppressing native Americans?"
well, up in Canada the gov't is not recognizing the effects of the huge scale pollution from the Alberta tar sands. No one but natives and a few trappers lived up there until oil was discovered. Now the oil industry is steaming oil out of the tar sands and creating lakes of toxic crap. It has destroyed the native fishing industry - the fish have big sores and cancer, and so do many natives living downstream. Its all Arctic drainage. The oil is going to the US, though hopefully we can begin to stop this dirty crap from being allowed in. No sense supporting projects like this with such long term consequences - poisoning and desecrating natural land, without consideration for the inhabitants.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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This is good! I think I'll have another beer and shoot off some M-80s!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Now the oil industry is steaming oil out of the tar sands and creating lakes of toxic crap.
That ain't cool. What's your source?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Wes and y'all are such pussies when asked tough questions.....
Nothing but rhetoric, typical commie crap!
M-80's, that's good stuff right there....just don't blow off one of Locker or FISH's useful climbing digits!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I don't really doubt it but y'all need independant sources. Ya know? I don't buy sh#t from enviro-wacko sites.
I'm just sayin'....
I'll try to find something.
btw. lots of clean natural gas is being used to steam the dirty low grade oil out of the ground
So what, clean nat gas is evil now too? You lost me, dude.
You people are crazy!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The principal comment almost all the chiefs made as the wave of genocide swept west was - '...and you call us savages?'.
The history of U.S. treaties with Native Americans has been one of relentless dishonesty on the part of the government and that extends right up to today with Obama administration's Interior Department carrying on that same sad legacy as we speak.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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We didn't go in for outright massacre of first peoples in most of Canada, but otherwise hardly treated them any better than the US. Not much to be proud of, and lots still to be worked out. Rapidly growing numbers of first peoples, in proportion to the population as a whole, is another challenge.
Apart from the oil industry, the Alberta government, and our Prime Minister Stephen Harper - a conservative from Alberta - few pretend that development of the tar sands in northern Alberta is anything but dirty, with high environmental impacts. Even given that heavy industry generally, and the oil industry particularly, are messy things. The tar sands (which the white washers in the governments recently started to call oil sands) require a lot of room, a lot of water, and a lot of energy to exploit. They produce a lot of dirty water, a lot of CO2, and a lot of chemicals. However, they're a huge resource of oil, and the time is coming when they'll be immensely valuable. As with Canada's fresh water, the US covets the oil from the tar sands.
And, as mentioned, the first peoples who live in the area, and historically depended on a hunting-gathering lifestyle, will be most affected.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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>btw. lots of clean natural gas is being used to steam the dirty low grade oil out of the ground
"So what, clean nat gas is evil now too? You lost me, dude."
the point is why waste something clean that is in relatively short supply. there's like a 30% overall energy gain, or some low figure...so if oil is expensive enough, they can afford to use natural gas. right now the tar sands isn't economical so expansion is all shut down...Alberta keeps going through boom and bust cycles..and is currently running a huge deficit (4.7 billion) since they take only a 1% tax from the oil companies. and there is nothing set aside for cleanup. the oil companies can go broke (after they've made their profits) and leave whoever lives there with the mess...
edit - MH brings up some good points about "Canada's fresh water". The areas that the tar sands drain into are relatively pristine and North America needs clean water more and more.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Blue for STARTERS, way back before our days, the government decided to "relocate" many Indians, and with the choice land they "gave" to them, decided that they could make what money they might without taxation. When the Indians figured out how to take this "choice" land and make a living, to the tune of millions and in some cases billions, the same government then decided to do what they had done thousands of times and renig on their "word" and "take" money from the Indians. It seemed that the Indians had outsmarted the government and the government could not "afford" to keep the promise of no taxation, so now they tax em and continue with dishonesty that started with the colonies.
This is but one example of thousands, but it will be wasted words on my part to try to "enlighten" you since you have seemed to have made up your mind that it is the fault of the Indians and probably the Jews, Blacks, Orientals and any other foreign people that they are a result of their own ineptness. It would be just as ignorant of me to rant that ALL "whites" who are on welfare, homeless, jobless or not living "the american dream" are in their situations because of their inabilility to overcome whatever hardship put them there. I KNOW there is more to their stories, therefore, don't judge on them. Maybe acceptance would be a better way to go. Accept people for who they are, not what they are. I remember talking with Ron Kauk a long time ago and he mentioned this was a common QUALITY he saw in native Indians, that they were willing to accept him, and people in general, rather than judge them. There is MUCH more to the story of why american Indians are where they are, but you will need to open your mind a bit more to acceptance before enlightenment can begin to take place.
Peace
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Right on Ron.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Can't we all just get along?
Our time here is limited!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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wes, are you still refusing to answer my questions?
Amazing how you pop up when Ron shows up with his Indian stories.
, but you will need to open your mind a bit more to acceptance before enlightenment can begin to take place.
Ron, you seem like a cool dude, but WTF? What does that mean? I have to understand more? You guys skirt questions and say I don't understand, you can't nail down specific examples, and I'm the "unenlightened one".....
dude...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Don't worry...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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John......:)
Peace
Edit or PS Blue them ain't Indian stories, pure hard fact! Believe it or deny it, pure hard fact.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ron, so what do Natives want that they don't have??????
plain and simple.
I told ya John was red.....
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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This here thread started by JB is basically all about history.
My life has taught me to ask... "Who's history?"
The authors/historians that publish so called "historical accounts" do so through their own experiences. It could be those experiences were live/real time/lived through it or vicariously gleaned from other's accounts years after the fact. Either way it will always be a egocentric portrayal of the events, which is only human nature and correct process as well. Only with a grain of salt would I read or hear the white, politician/businessman's account of the events of the western world's development/colonization of the American south west. But then I am a cynical, half baked, old, curmudgeon.
I would like to see history books (and teachers) that teach history by giving as much press too the points of view/s of all factions involved at the time.
History? Who's history?
"Class, today we are going to learn about the overthrow by Washington, of the Monarchy of the Kingdom of Hawai'i. We will read accounts of the events leading up to the illegal overthrow through the eyes of the Rich, white, plantation owners of the time. Then we will study accounts of actions/reactions by the common subjects of the Kingdom of Hawai'i. As well we will read/study the writing of the Hawaiian queen of the time, Lili'uokalani. last but not least we will then study the opinions and reactions of the non native born, imported agricultural work force that tended the fields and therefore the low end of the socio/economic scale of the islands during that era"
Just one, brief example but that is how I wish I was taught history!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regardless of what transpired in North America after the colonists gained independence from the King of England, today I will celebrate. I celebrate the fact that my ancestors had the huevos to lay life, limb and all of their family as well, on the chopping block for what they believed in (at the time).
It all started with...
"No taxation without representation".
Stupid Britts. If they had any foresight at all they would have just given the colonists a few (mute) seats in Parliament and pretended that they actually had any say in matters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ps.
I readily admit that as a New Englander who's first public school was named in Honor of one of the Mass Bay Colony rep's that signed the Declaration... I was indoctrinated very early in life!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Happy Fourth folks...
BTW:
A couple of my Britt friends call it "Good Riddance day"
I call it a great excuse for...
well in a word - 'Pahteh'
with all my friends in all their diversity.
So I'm with you on that one Blitzo,
But you can keep the Salvia,
I'll stick with more simple substances ;)
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Freedom, Justice, Liberty and a chance to pursue Happiness. You know Blue all those un-patriotic un-American ideals.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Equality would be nice for starters, but I think you might argue that as well, so rather than get sucked into your rants, I'll go have a great Forth of July, watch the fireworks, bar b que, maybe go to the Pachanga Powwow and watch my friends play native music and dance. And hope you can see the "light".
Peace
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Ron, appreciate your thoughtful input and unique perspective on this.
Erik.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Why thanks a million Mister E(rik)!
Peace
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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Hey Blue
Part of a short answer to your question is the ingrained culture on the res. Will elaborate later as I'm out the door to take the kids to a concert.
Hey you guys have a great & safe forth.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Binks
Social climber
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Can't we just let it die now. They were conquered and it was generations before my birth. Same with lots of other wars etc. I'm fine with fireworks. Let's deal with the way it is NOW...
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Chinchen
climber
Flagstaff?
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Thanks for posting that, Mr Bachar.
Bluering you sir are and idiot.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Just off the lake sunburnt and crispy and happy. Scrolled quickly through all the posts ...to many takes to respond to. But have to say, all you have takes....all valid, some more than others. Digging yo ALL MY FRIENDS on this holiday. :D
When the HELICOPTERS and the two vans containing the BOMB SQUAD along with several SHERIFF'S squad cars greeted Dan and I at our home several years ago for "merely" a minor infraction I knew we were no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Really happened and really scary. :} Cheers to you all. Without the Fourth we could not express all our great and varied opinions.
Lynnie
EDIT: So far no handcuffs,,,,, MAJOR HOMEMADE FIREWORKS rule !!!111(((999
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Just ran across some old George Carlin skit.... to lighten things up.
This entire country is completely full of sh#t and always has been. From the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution to The Star-Spangled Banner, its really nothing more than one big, steaming pile of red, white and blue, All-American bullsh#t.
Because think of how we started think of that. This country was founded by a group of slave-owners who told us all men are created equal. Oh, yeah. All men, except for Indians and n***ers and women, right? (Always like to use that authentic American language.)
This was a small group of unelected, white male, land-holding slave-owners who also suggested their class be the only one allowed to vote. Now that is whats known as being stunningly and embarrassingly full of sh#t."
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L
climber
A deep dive in the shallows of life..
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Bluering,
You are not to blame for history. Plain and simple: You weren't there; you didn't do anything wrong a couple hundred years ago. You don't have to feel guilty because you're not guilty--of anything.
I know you're feeling attacked right now, by almost everyone, and the tenor of this whole thread appears to be an attack on you and your viewpoint. And it's naturally going to bring up defensiveness.
But the underlying truth of this dialog is simply an attempt, by people with solid knowledge and experience of Native life in America today, to help open your eyes to the reality of reservation life. It's not a YOU'RE RIGHT/YOU'RE WRONG argument here...it's more about not knowing the truth.
It's also a matter of recognizing the immaculate deceptions perpetuated by a government which, throughout our history, has been going to war in foreign nations to "stop" the very thing it's been doing here at home...to its own people. It's about realizing that you are not alone (by any stretch of the imagination) in believing those lies and deceptions, nor in feeling somewhat helpless as to be able to do anything to help the situation.
You're not at fault here, Bluering. You were just taken in by the powers that be...the powers you were supposed to be able to trust.
I have Native American blood in me--not a lot, but enough to have had a great grandmother who suffered horribly when families were separated and sent to different reservations. But more to the point--and in this present moment--I donate money to the Pine Ridge Reservation, and the Oglala Nation, on a regular basis. Before I give a dime of my hard-earned salary to anyone or anything, I do some pretty careful research.
Our government is not taking care of the Native Americans. It costs $7000 a year for one child in Pine Ridge to go to school, and there are Catholic priests, Protestant ministers, and all sorts of non-denominational volunteers out there begging American citizens like myself to give. So these kids can be educated...better prepare them for the 21st century...and eventually find jobs to support themselves.
Why do you suppose volunteer groups are having to beg people like myself for money for these kids' educations? Isn't a free gradeschool through highschool education mandatory in the United States?
Why do you suppose mortality rates, suicide rates, and alcoholism are higher on reservations than anywhere else in this great nation? Do you truly believe a culture would sentense itself to that sort of slow, cancer-ridden death if it had the power to change course on its own?
My feeling is--you just haven't given much thought to this whole skeleton-in-the-closet thing. And why would you? Unless you had a vested interest in alleviating other's suffering, you have a million other things to think about, work on, deal with. A job, a beautiful wife, an awesome son, a house, taxes, health, etc. And what if all at once you actually see the human (and animal) suffering on the reservations, THEN what the hell are you supposed to do, right? You're only one effin' person--what the hell can you do anyway???
I've got to admit...I feel like that a lot of the time myself. So much suffering...so many animals suffering, humans suffering, the beautiful Earth herself suffering. It's overwhelming at times.
But Bluering, just being able to observe the truth of any situation is an enormous gift to ending the suffering. You--simply you--acknowledging what's going on with Native Americans will eventually raise the consciousness of this entire country, and then the world. One person at a time. It's true...that's all it takes. And when enough people know the truth, the horrendous situation will change. That's how it works.
Be willing to know what's really going on. Do the research yourself--don't depend on anyone else to fill your head for you. You're a smart guy--you know how to research the Internet. And you also know, somewhere deep inside, when you're just collecting crapola to support some embedded, spoon-fed old belief-system...or when you've actually stumbled upon the truth.
And suddenly your entire worldview shifts...and you know.
It's really not about you being right or wrong, Bluering...it's about doing what it takes to see what's really going on.
I personally like you a great deal...your political loyalties aren't who you truly are, so I couldn't care less who you voted for or who you listen to on the radio. But as someone who actually cares about you, I wouldn't mind if...somehow...you were able to find out a bit more about reservation life, just so you could form your own opinion. ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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L -- "just being able to observe the truth of any situation is an enormous gift to ending the suffering."
Yes, that is the first step .......
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Yeah, Bachar, it's all your fault!!! We're gonna have to beat you up! Cause we're american!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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L - good post, thanks...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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"My ancestors (Norwegians) were the first Europeans known to have arrived here, in about 1,000 CE in L'Anse aux Meadows. They went home soon afterward. No real consequences."
Anders, I appreciated your input on this topic, (but my following comment takes the above paragraph out of the context of your post); your words could offer someone fertile opportunity for a dark rant about Norski oppression of the Sami (Laplander) people who were the indigenous people of northern Scandinavia.
The Vikings were not partial to letting the Sami tend their reindeer herds in peace and were often, in fact, very brutal. Even in recent history, attempts were made to deprive them of their language and enforce seperate economic niche.
Norway was last of the Scandinavian countries to relax ethnic conflict against the Sami. Now, Sami homelands are administered and owned by the people of the province rather than owned by the Norwegian state. And to counter past oppression, Sami culture and language is promoted rather than suppressed. By international law, Sami are recognized as an "indigenous people".
Genocide is defined (by international law) as the intent to destroy a national, racial, religious or ethnical group either by killing, preventing births, causing physical or MENTAL harm, forcibly transfering children. Whenever accusations of genocide are made, the issue is hotly contested by both sides, including what actually concstitutes genocide.
Prosecution of genocide is near impossible because of the difficulty in establishing a chain of accountability. If perpetrators are long dead, a just prosecution, by human beings, IS impossible.
Our harm to Native Americans is one chapter in the human history of genocide and oppression. Genocide is not specific to American history or just a relic of battle ax culture. As Laura suggested, it's too bad our cause cιlθbre focus is on pointing fingers into the past or across the picket fence at our neighbor rather than taking personal accountability for change and accepting moral codes that might prevent future sufferings.
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Rash on my ash
Gym climber
From: Mumbia
Bqchar, you faggot if you hate this country and what it stands for why the f*#k don't you pack your s*$t up and move to North Korea or Iran. What a puke. grow balls
Freedom of speech dude, freedom of speech.
But one thing Bachar doesn't need to grow is balls.
But being a gym rat you probably wouldn't know that.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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That was L-equent. Thank you for such a wonderful approach.
And of course you are correct.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Neil Young land
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bluering, I don't like to insult people on this site, but you are rather ignorant of the facts
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Nice one, John!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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On a happier note, I just got done watching another great Fourth of July baseball match up. What a game!
VS.
Cincinnati got whomped again, 13 to 0.... Arizona just killed 'em. It was almost too painful to watch...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Yes, Jennie - there's no doubt that Norway and the Scandinavian countries have at times treated their Sami peoples shamefully. By and large humans tend to exploit and colonize those who are weaker, as the history of the Americas shows so grimly. The Sami were treated in much the same way, although they had the advantage of having the same resistance/susceptibility to disease as the other inhabitants - they weren't decimated by introduced disease, at least not in the same way. And as the Sami are from a remote inland area shared between four countries, with boundaries that were not settled until relatively recently, that provided some protection.
As an aside, I've been told that there is no significant difference between the DNA of the Sami and that of Scandinavians as a whole, although whether that's due to millenia of occasional interbreeding, or there being only cultural and historic differences, is another question. Still, an interesting tidbit, if true.
Of course a millenia ago the Vikings were a rough bunch, even by the standards of the time, and even with the knowledge we have now that they were much more than just pillagers, and suffered from a hostile (clerical, anti-pagan) press.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Yeah, Bachar's a pansy ass! Let's beat him up!
Rash on my ass, you're an idiot!
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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L wrote "Our government is not taking care of Native Americans".
It isn't taking care of anyone... and will do even less in the near future. It's broke, it has bled us dry for stupid phoney wars, to bail out thieves on wall street, and to meaninglessly and uselessly enrich oil cartels while we in our tv and media induced stupor allowed and are still allowing it to happen. They don't care if things are ever fixed. They don't care if anybody has a shot. And they never will.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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If I were some of you, I would just ignore ignorant people like Bluering...
Unfortunately, ignoring such people is part of the problem.
New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett
For better or worse, this man is in my family tree (images of apes jumping through the woods).
He was a doctor and no doubt a well-meaning man.
EDIT ... and Rash, but then Rash sounds more than ignorant (I've traded words with Bluey, he's not a bad man), Rash sounds just like that, eczema at its worst.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Yes, yes. It's a focking drag what happened - now we all can slap some bumper stickers on and feel like we "relate":
Except it's not Chief Seattle - it's Chief Sealth - whoops! Maybe some bad cursive by a messenger of the new States? Whatever, Dude!
Oh well - my empathy lies on the rear protection device of my SUV
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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While I agree that our country has done and continues to do many things that are morally reprehensible it is at the same time quite ridiculous to pretend that is all that we have done. Additionally, it is how most of us on this forum have gotten where we are for better or for worse. I do not think it is "retrohistorical" to look back and identify what we did wrong in the past, but it is also counterproductive when that is ALL we are willing to look at.
At the very least, America is the worst country on Earth.....except for all the others. Perhaps we can begin to celebrate those things that brought us all here as Americans while acknowledging the wrongdoings of the past without the cynicism and snarkyness that we all know and love.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I have (documented) 1/16th Cherokee in my blood (must have been that blood transfusion when I was hit by a car when I was ten).
Every time I watch (a handful of times) Mississippi Burning, I get pissed off. How can humans be treated like that. Or even the film In The Heat of The Night, to name just another film.
I just saw a heartwarming movie called "Something The Lord Made" about how Vivien Thomas contributed to the advancement of heart surgery, even though he was discriminated against at times.
In first and second grade at St Francis de Sales Catholic school in Oakland, the three musketeers were Jesse (Hispanic-American), Anthony (African-America) and myself (European-American). I can only thank my late mother that she brought me up 'color blind'.
EDIT
BTW, for you bigots out there on the Taco Stand (and you are there), this is not an anti-American rant. I realize that there is ethnic (not racial, what a misnomer as we are all Homo Sapien Sapiens, the same race) discrimination in many lands/countries.
But seeing as how I am an American, I feel I can comment on my own country, even if I do not live there at present.
What is the Biblical saying about a plank in one's own eye? Perhaps some of you should consider looking at the New Testament. As for me, I'm an atheist, but I realize that the NT has some sound truths in it.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Good morning! Is this still going on?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Rash = Onyx
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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the earth is about to kick our ass.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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bluering, I don't like to insult people on this site, but you are rather ignorant of the facts
Really, maybe you can educate me so I'm not as stupid anymore. Which facts am I ignorant of, since you seem to know me so well?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Ring !
can you get loose today?
i'm ready to bail.
screw all this politic bs.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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maybe....
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WBraun
climber
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bluering, .... ignorant does not mean stupid.
Ignorant = poor fund of knowledge
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mr Braun, you're correct of course, but my question still stands.
Nobody ever answers my questions here, just spew that I'm insensitive and ignorant with a couple of right-wingers thrown in.
L had the best post so far.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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that is correct.
stupid is when you run a stop sign, get t-boned, then get out of the hospital, run a stop sign, get t-boned, get out of the hospital..,
now that's stupid.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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hey, monopoly requires at least 2 players, but is more fun with 7.
get me?
can you imagine Springer with Alan Greenspan and Alan Greenspan?
snooze-o-matic.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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bluering your questions get answered all the time. Unfortunately, like so many before you, you generally only read the posts with personal attacks in them, and on the occasion you stray into others you have a tendency to add some negativity of your own.
Jody was famous for this. He'd read nothing unless the post started with "Jody you're an idiot." I can't count how many substantive posts I have written in response to you or him only to see them ignored in favor of a response to a derisive post after mine.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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L, are you telling me that we pay to educate illegal aliens in public schools but have not enough fed/state dollars to educate kids on reservations? And treat the same peeps in emergency rooms yet ignore reservations?
If so, that's f*#ked up!
Is it because reservations are autonomous in the sense that the fed/state has no jurisdiction, and as a result, no way to commit money? Really, serious question.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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somtimes reality is different from the written word.
you back up the indians, then you see them leaving dying salmon in the gil nets because they are on a three day bender, but you can't fish, because you are not a native?
or the cars we buy them that end up in the ditch on the rez, it's always a jeep cherokee, or a pontiac sunbird, or a cherokee chief, never a siverado.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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HDDJ, wes, and nodoby else chose to answer my 'what if we never came here' scenario.
And Oli only vaguely answered my 'what do they want' question.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Bluering said - "Is it because reservations are autonomous in the sense that the fed/state has no jurisdiction, and as a result, no way to commit money? Really, serious question. "
That's patently false.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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Here's another poem that might answer some of the questions posed above...
INDEPENDENCE DAY FOR NATIVE AMERICANS
by Robin Carneen
When the lands are given back to us, and we don't have to do fund raisers or occupations to get them back ;
When the buffalo are not hazed and killed by government agencies;
When rocks are not sold as souvenirs on Alcatraz ;
When Indian names and images are not used as Sports mascots or for commercial selling of products ;
When we can have equal time in our classrooms across the United States to learn and speak our languages so they are not lost forever ;
When we have funding in our schools so our children can learn;
When all tribes can be "recognized" ;
When we can keep our casino monies and take care of our own;
When we all have health care, card carrying or not ;
When we can have statues that also commemorate our own people;
When we can change historical markers to reflect the truth and not glamorize the murders;
When we can see curriculum in our school books and classrooms that are not romanticized or glossed over when it comes to what really happened in and around Indian Country ;
When we don't have to ask permission to hunt and gather for sustenance, ceremony, or for medicinal reasons;
When all Sacred Sites are in place(and protected);
When our ancestors remains or artifacts are uncovered, the corporation or construction companies JUST STOP and find a different place to build;
When DJ's of commercial radio stations stop putting Indian people down;
When we can get our Indian Trust $$$ back out of the US Government's hands;
When we can get adequate and efficient housing for all Reservations & rancherias & there is no waiting list ;
When we can get more of a variety of commodity foods and some fresh food...like eggs, milk, etc ;
When we can all have enough land given back to grow our own foods;
When our reservations are no longer used as toxic and nuclear waste dumps;
When the US Government apologizes and is held to answer for the atrocities and genocidal acts it did against countless Native American people ;
When our President makes a visit to each Rez and realizes what the USA has re-created in Afghanistan, Iraq and countries to come;
When our ceremonies are not sold by those who disrespect the pipe, the sweat lodge, the sundance and the things that help us heal ;
When we can get roads, power, phones, and computers to the Reservations & rancherias that are without these things;
When we have a gym, clinic, wellness center, etc on each and every Reservation;
When we have our own radio station on each Rez;
When we have more kids graduate from High school and college;
When we have adults returning back to school and getting their GED;
When we have less or no Indians in Prison and jail or political prisoners like Leonard Peltier;
When we have more rehab, preferably traditional and native way facilities ;
When we have more prevention programs and activities on the Rez's;
When poverty dissipates and children and adults do not have to go hungry;
When women are not referred to by the name "Squaw" and men "Chief";
When Winona La Duke sits as President in the White House
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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you know what really screwed up the indians?
we gave them amaerican names, so now their children can not get rights to funding because they can not verify with the center for tribology and all that.
"ok, what is your nationality?"
"Apache - the most blood thisrty, ax weilding of all tribes"
"Great! What is your grandmothers name?"
"John Smith"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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That's patently false.
HDDJ, it was a question, not a statement.
edit:Arguing online is like running in a Republican primary...even if you win you are still retarded.
oh, you're so clever.....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Bluering with all due respect it is disingenuous for you to complain about not being answered and being called a right winger. If you start from the top of this thread you will see it is you calling folks "Idiots", "Commies" and "Schmucks". What gives?
L's and Werner's responses are well thought out and sensitive. Most others simply do not have the patience.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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hey, speaking of indian, were you thinkin of indian rock today?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Hey philo, schmuck! I started name-calling because they wouldn't answer my honest questions. We can't have a dialogue if it's one-sided.
I already said L and Werner were thoughtful in their replies.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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That would be kinda appropriate, Dr. You goin'?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Blue wrote: Is it because reservations are autonomous in the sense that the fed/state has no jurisdiction, and as a result, no way to commit money? Really, serious question.
Show how little you know.
Look up the stealing BIA which was created by the US government.
Always nice to see how a homophobic white, right wing male see the blight of Native Americans.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Bluering I opt to disagree with you. Your first post was as follows...
bluering
Trad climber
From: Santa Clara, Ca.
bachar, it's sad to see you turn into a commie, anti-AmeriKan.
we are so screwed as a country with this crap and Bachar going Red on us.
And that was well before you asked a single question.
And why call me a schmuck for what I posted? Was I offensive to you?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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you could bring the whole family to indian...
no tick hike in.
who knows, we might even get to watch them take somebody out in the meat wagon like last weekend.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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bluering: Yes, I answered your question. "No."
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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what was the question again?
if it's multiple choice, i got a shot at it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Yeah, good idea, Dr.
Bob, it WAS A F*#KING QUESTION!!!! Not a statement.
Philo, I was f*#king with you in calling you a schmuck. And yeah, seeing John's obvious troll (that I bit into) upset me a bit. Especially because Independance day isn't Colonization day. It's a day to celebrate independance from Brits, not keeping the red man down.
Edit: HDDJ, yeah, now you did. Thank you.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Blue...still shows how little you know...educated yourself then come back...might be a long wait.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Cool Blue. But next time could you bring me some flowers or chocolates and maybe some KY?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Assuming the answer to my reservation autonomy is no, then yeah, that's pretty f*#ked up. We spend tax dollars to educate illegal immigrants, hospital them, and give them social services, but the native inhabitants of this country get less?
That's f*#ked up!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Blue...still shows how little you know...educated yourself then come back...might be a long wait.
This arrogance is what I'm talking about. Why don't you, if you care so much about this, educate me yourself. That way I'd be getting the RIGHT info, right?
Maybe if I educated myself it would just be more right-wing propaganda filled with Injun-hating racism. Dontcha think?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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bluering- What is f*#ked up is that you continually seem to see things only in relation to illegal immigrants. If you want to have a real discussion about the condition of native tribes and government support there is a rich one to be had. You only serve to continue a hostile and inauthentic discussion when you insist on only see things on this bizarre "illegal immigrant" continuum. If illegal immigrants got no services would the lack of services or support for the tribes be ok? If the tribes got lots of service and support would it be ok to educate illegal immigrants? Just drop it already. It makes no sense.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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HDDJ, in Cali we have an estimated 25 billion budget problem that gives between 5 and 12 billion annualy to illegal immigrant care. Seems common sensical to think about cutting that off as part of a fix.
But I'm a racist so WTF do I know about anything....
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Neil Young land
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L, are you telling me that we pay to educate illegal aliens in public schools but have not enough fed/state dollars to educate kids on reservations? And treat the same peeps in emergency rooms yet ignore reservations?
If so, that's f*#ked up!
Is it because reservations are autonomous in the sense that the fed/state has no jurisdiction, and as a result, no way to commit money? Really, serious question.
bluering, I did not say you were stupid. just ignorant of the facts.
also, it seems that you are not aware of government priorities.
of course the government is going to acquiesce(sp) to the illegals. they are a powerful, and growing voting bloc.
Native Americans don't vote in such numbers.
as others have said, I recommend that you visit either the Pine Ridge, or Navajo indian reservations.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
|
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things change.
my drunken friend's grandmother was a swedish stripper in the copper mines of arizona back in the 1920's.
Then she got an apartment complex.
Had a sign out in front:
Rent: $20 a month - No Coons or Jews!
that wouldn't go over too well nowadays.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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of course the government is going to acquiesce(sp) to the illegals. they are a powerful, and growing voting bloc.
Native Americans don't vote in such numbers.
Well, I agree there's a problem there on 2 fronts.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
|
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you go to oregon for the summer and come back to dry ol california, it sure is a bitch.
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
|
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Illegals don't vote.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
|
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but they sure make a mean enchillada...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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What sucks here is the old Hispanic families who have been here in the village since the land grant days, (we're talking before the American revolution)getting treated like illegal aliens by some of the white folks around here.
Some of these people are more American than whitey is, like the Native Americans.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
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Blue wrote: This arrogance is what I'm talking about. Why don't you, if you care so much about this, educate me yourself. That way I'd be getting the RIGHT info, right?
From your original post it seems that that you can't even grasped a little of what John was trying to get across.
Also I think it is hilarious that you think you know so much about the government of Iran and how it treated it's people and know so little about what this country has done.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
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"HDDJ, in Cali we have an estimated 25 billion budget problem that gives between 5 and 12 billion annualy to illegal immigrant care. Seems common sensical to think about cutting that off as part of a fix.
But I'm a racist so WTF do I know about anything.... "
That was a pretty weak cop out bluering. Illegal immigration has literally nothing to do with the issue, and your concerns about illegal immigration have literally nothing to do with the budget. A short time ago there was not a budget deficit but your concern regarding illegal immigration was no different. If you want to learn about or talk about the government funding and support related to native tribes then talk about that. Don't bring illegal immigration into it.
So here we are totally not discussing the actual issue, which was my point to begin with.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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A short time ago there was not a budget deficit
What, the 80's?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
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bluering you are too funny. "WHY WON'T YOU ARROGANT PRICKS EDUCATE ME WHILE I DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO AVOID TALKING ABOUT THE REAL ISSUE!"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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What is the real issue? That John posted a whitey on Indian thread to celebrate the 4th?
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woof!
Trad climber
texas
|
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i ate acid and climbed yesterday... like a real American
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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i ate acid and climbed yesterday... like a real American
that's proud right there!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Well, that absolves you of all responsibility to answer a question then, Wes. I'm a child-like buffoon asking ridiculous questions that aren't worthy of your profound intellect that apparently isn't capable of speculation and projection.
Fine.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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This thread needs more hats.
Y'know, for your 5head, so ya don't sunstroke it.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
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Blue wrote: A short time ago there was not a budget deficit
What, the 80's?
No Reagan increase the size of the deficit and government from the previous president.
Stop grabbing at straws.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
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bluering if you can't follow a linear conversation I'm not sure there's much we can teach you.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Finally, you are starting to understand! Educated speculation is a worthy skill. Speculation based on ignorance is something entirely different. You are different, you are special.
Exactly why I'm STILL waiting for your 'educated speculation' as opposed to my racist speculation. After all, you are the smart one, right?
F*#k, again, you people just spin, spin, spin, and we're right back where we started. Calling me uneducated and claiming you know everything, yet divulging nothing....but more criticism of me personally.
Who's the ignorant one, he who asks questions, or he who thinks he knows the answers already?
Maybe his hat's too tight.
I do have a hat on right now...seems alright though.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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That's what they're askin' you, Blue.
I think your hat should be tighter, perhaps?
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GDavis
Trad climber
|
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Seems I'm showing up late to the "bash bluering show."
You dudes need to chill out a bit, getting pretty personal, holy cow. Go smoke out a bit and maybe you won't give a sh!t what people say on the internet so much.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Hey man...I like Blue.
He might need a NEW hat, though.
Maybe a proper chapeau?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Captain, you ain't so bad yourself....mostly.....
Greg, WTF?, I got this, go climbing or something, dude.
Wes is being his typical self-rightious self.
I got weeds on top of my house though....then need tendin'!
I'll be back.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
|
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Its called conquest. Been going on for ages. First the bigger bullies with tree branch clubs would beat up other tree branch clubbing peoples...while at the same time the big stone throwers were conquering the beach dwelling pebble throwers(they put up a fight and a good one!).
A little later on someone figured out the fire thing. Now the little tree branch clubbers(the few that were left) would light their clubs on fire and attack the bigger tree club weilding bullies(who were fat, out of shape, and unprepared because they were reveling in their victories thinking themselves invincible) and the bigger tree clubbers ran into the forest and there they remained until they got their revenge with the discovery of metal tools fashioned into weapons.
Well, they sprang out of the forests one day and and slaughtered all but two of the by now self righteous lit on fire tree clubbers types(just so happens a boy and a girl survived) and there they(the little tree clubbers) remained until many years later one of the offspring of the two remaining little clubbers(yes the boy and girl eventually found about sex) mixed a little salt peter, sulfur, and charcoal together and blew himself up.
Luckily for the little tree clubber peoples, one of the 6 fingered siblings of the now blown to bits little tree clubber had watched from afar and he(the girls were cooking and cleaning) realized the potential to get even with the big tree clubbers. Preparations were made.
So under the mask of darkness the gunpowder wielding ,once overpowered and nearly extinct, little tree huggers crept into the metal weapons encampment and blew them all to kingdom come.
Meanwhile on the opposite coast a small bronzed boy( an offspring of the big stone throwers) with a gourd covered crotch was playing with sticks in the surf, and began to fashion the beginnings of a sea going vessel. These peoples would eventually become great explorers of the oceans blue.
A chance encounter with a drunken gun powder carrying non violent little tree hugger type led to an exchange of information. The seafarers now had gunpowder and transportaion to roam and pillage....And Columbus sailed the ocean blue.....
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
Hey Bluering, man sounds like John REALLY hit one one here! You've been taking a beating and I give you credit, you keep coming back. I admire your ability to stand up for what you believe, I give EVERYONE here credit for standing up for their beliefs, that's one of the things that's suppose to MAKE this country so "great". You asked me two questions I believe and I answered them both directly, to the best of my ability. I haven't called you anything derogatory(I think, if I did I apologize)and I've tried to stay on subject. I would like a response from you for my own curiosity, as to why "acceptance and equality" are so unacceptable to you(if they are)? You stated in one response, and the response was to me, that I'm "skirting" the questions. You asked me two questions, I answered them both....one was acceptance of all people, which can lead to enlightenment, the other was equality for all people, which can lead to acceptance. Not trying to attack or berate you, but just looking as to why you think I'm skirting your questions. Took some time off this thread to enjoy the 4th of July and I'm sure you didn't need more crap!
By the way, I'm cool with you thinking I'm "a cool dude."
Thanks
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
|
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This thread needs some distraction:
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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That depends. What are her qualifications?
Is she indigenous?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
|
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How 'bout a hat?
Nevermind, forget the hat.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Ron, good man, I feel like we can prolly discuss this like two men.
My problem is that while I'd agree that the we are still shitting on the Indians, what do they require that they shouldn't be providing for themselves?
Sounds insensitive, I know.
My point is, do they wish to live as they did in the past or do they want to join the 21st century and adapt to our culture. Either way I'm cool with it, I just gots to know.
I have a feeling they want to retain their land and heritage as much as possible, and I'd be the first to support that!
But with limited funds and sad lobbying for state/fed dollars, they will continue to be hurt. Maybe they should run somebody for senate or state legislature, but that's not their way and maybe the reason that, sadly, their culture is dying.
Again I'd say that I'd rather give my tax dollars to native Americans before illegal immigrants. Interpret that as you will.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
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Blue wrote: But with limited funds and sad lobbying for state/fed dollars, they will continue to be hurt. Maybe they should run somebody for senate or state legislature, but that's not their way and maybe the reason that, sadly, their culture is dying.
Actually Blue the US government tried to kill it off and the indigenous people are trying to bring it back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/22/native-americans-preserve-language-america
Look up Taos Pueblo and the fierce dignity that they used to keep their culture intact and alive.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
Right on Bluering, thanks for the response. I can't speak for all Indians or any minority, but what you say has merit. All minorities and majorities need to get in the 21 century. If we knew how to attain that, we'd be genius's. Like I said in a previous post, I don't dwell on the past, look to the future and how to make things better. I(I) wish that with the casino situation, is that the Indians be allowed to make their money, tax free, BUT that the money that would have gone to taxes for the US govies, still be taken out and put into a fund that could be used to educate, insure and raise the standard of living for those living on the reservations. If the reservations were truly free from government ruling, then why does the government tell the reservations what they can and can't do about everything from religion, to income? That IS NOT FAIR! I believe it is up to all minorities to pull themselves out of whatever problems they are in, even if some assistance is needed, but by doing it themselves, it WILL make them a stronger people. Allow the Indians to reattain their culture, religion, language, socialization etc., so they can then be strong and confident that they can remain in today society as an equal. Many injustices have been put on them, but plain simple fact is, those injustices cannot be made up for, in any way, so it is up to them(us) to do it for ourselves. One of the biggest hurdles I see, is that Indians have a different set of beliefs and values, generally speaking, and what matters to one ethic group might not matter to another, so there is a barrier to understanding each other. Example: most Indians believe that one should respect ALL things on earth, living or not, other cultures don't have those same beliefs so it's hard for one to understand or empathize with another.
As stated earlier, I don't dwell on the past, but I do recognize what the past has molded, and if I knew the answers, then I'm in the wrong business. but I do wholeheartedly believe that we as a whole people(all races) NEED to be more tolerant,understanding and accepting of each other and each other beliefs in order for things to work. Keep your beliefs, stand up for them, but also, understand, listen and be acceptable of other people as well.
Peace Bluering!
Ron
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
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Ron wrote: As stated earlier, I don't dwell on the past...
Dwelling and not understanding/accepting are two different things.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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True Bob, but perhaps if we ALL understood more and accepted more, we wouldn't have to dwell. I think I'm on yer side on this one! Good for John to have posted this topic(even though it's OT)controversy, brings conversation, conversation can lead to education, education can lead to understanding, etc. etc. etc.!
Peace
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
You can't understand where to go if you don't know where you've been, Ron. There's a difference between "dwelling on the past" and "understanding the issue." This isn't about trying to get people to feel guilty.
The tribes AREN'T totally free of government ruling. They are quasi-sovereign states. The federal government has also been charged with managing billions of dollars of tribal funds, much of which has been skimmed off of, mismanaged and misdirected over the last century.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
"My problem is that while I'd agree that the we are still shitting on the Indians, what do they require that they shouldn't be providing for themselves?
Sounds insensitive, I know.
My point is, do they wish to live as they did in the past or do they want to join the 21st century and adapt to our culture. Either way I'm cool with it, I just gots to know."
A serious issue right now is that the "American way of life" prevents tribes from living their way of life. Excessive water drawing in the southwest and continental west is reducing groundwater to a point where rural Native communities can't get water. And let's not mention all the pollutants we put into our own rivers and soil...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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HDesertDJ, I stated that the Indians ARE NOT FREE of government ruling, I get it.... I'm trying to converse with Blue on this matter as it seems to be nothing but a schitting match between everyone and he was asking me direct questions as to what I thought, he and I seem to be making some headway. I don't agree with a lot of what's being said here, but that's neither here nor there. It seems like most commenting on this matter only want their views to be heard and not a lot of willingness to listen to others.....but that's my own opinion. Bluering asked me questions, I answered him, he responded to me, he and I are CONVERSING, trying to WORK through this. Hope I haven't offended you or anyone else here, but that's why I'm trying to stick with Blue (and John) on the thread.
Peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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I(I) wish that with the casino situation, is that the Indians be allowed to make their money, tax free, BUT that the money that would have gone to taxes for the US govies, still be taken out and put into a fund that could be used to educate, insure and raise the standard of living for those living on the reservations.
Me too. I agree.
I look at the whole casino scam as a way to throw a monetary bone to 'natives' to get them to shut up. The tribal 'elders' get the bone and everyone else gets the tiny scraps. It ain't right.
Kinda like Al Sharpton speaking for all black people, yeah, whatever. Everyone knows he's doing his thing for himself. He collects money, spouts off a bunch of garbage about oppression, and goes back to his nice house.
What I find disturbing is the lack of true leadership in the native community. Maybe it's inherint in their culture to not join the political fracass. Can't blame 'em.
That brings me back to what they really strive for as a community and culture. Is it to be left alone to live as they always have, or to have a chance at living the 'new life' in the newer world of technology and what have you...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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I should point out also that I think it's a shame to lose native American culture. It's NATIVE culture and should be encouraged to thrive and be perserved.
I think I know what y'all are talking about, just talking from 2 different directions.
I do stick by my revolvers though on spending 'illegal immigrant' cash on stuff like this though...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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"Maybe it's inherent in their culture not to join the political fracass. I can't blame em" Kinda funny Bluering...I'm not politically active, when I was very young I made a promise to my grandmother, who is now dead, not to participate, hope to keep that promise in her honor. Can't say I'm right or wrong for that, but I know I made a promise to her, so I should honor that. It would be nice if the Indians had a more centralized political focus,(would it work for them) but man where do we start there??? Other minority groups have leadership within their groups to a certain extent. I still think social issues need to be worked out before centralizing can happen though.
Peace
Maybe someday if I believe in something politically strong enough I can talk with her and see if she'll let me break our promise.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Maybe someday if I believe in something politically strong enough I can talk with her and see if she'll let me break our promise.
Maybe she didn't want you to get sucked into the BS that comes with being a politician. There have been some who have avoided the BS and represented their people respectfully and honestly.
I think she'd like that, especially if it helped out people and was something she'd be proud of you for.
Too many rotten politicians, not enough Ron's.
peace, dude.
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
|
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Too many rotten politicians and too many broke states on this 4th. Where did the money go?
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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dt,it went to mandates & entitlements as well as other places.
How many of you guys/gals have spent time amongst the people,on the res?
PS: dt, you guys gettin' pounded up your way? We're gettin' a bit of a break here today(Baja Wyoming).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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dt,it went to mandates & entitlements as well as other places.
Word. Totally broken system and especially this state.....
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
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The political process is the act of negotiating and reconciling ideas collectively as a society. Why would you ever promise someone not to take an active part in the society that you live in?
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WBraun
climber
|
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A politician can NEVER be trusted.
Why do you people waste your time with such a stupid system?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Why would you ever promise someone not to take an active part in the society that you live in?
Because his grandmother asked him to. And he probably has some respect for his grandmother.
You're reading too much into what he said too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Why do you people waste your time with such a stupid system?
Master Braun, it's all we have to work with right now. Yeah, it sucks, but we strive to make it better...
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WBraun
climber
|
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How can you make it better when the foundation is defective?
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Politicians have to be people pleasers. That's a huge part of "the problem." I look at most and think, "I wouldn't want to be friends with them." The system does not reward the smartest or most talented: it rewards people with an entirely different set of skills that might or might not be useful.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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You fix the foundation, Werner. Hard to do, but that's all we can strive for...
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WBraun
climber
|
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You can't be trusted and you're going to fix the system .....
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L
climber
A deep dive in the shallows of life..
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Dang Bluering...I'm impressed. We're going to have a great bonfire chat at FL, dude...maybe more than one. ;-)
One glaring difference between Native thought and European/white thought is where it comes from. That sounds odd, I know, but it's the truth. Left brain/right brain sort of thing...or mind vs. spirit, to be more precise.
Indigenous cultures have always been part of the land. They live and breathe with the cycles of the Earth...or at least they used to. The majority of them reside in their being most of the time, attuned to the seasons, the wind, the wildlife, intuition and feeling. Attuned to something unseen and non-conceptual...something much more eternal. And community-based. Without community, they knew they were doomed.
European settlers, on the other hand--or invader/conquerors of other countries--obviously reside mostly in the mind. To invade another country, occupy it and subjugate its people, you have to be mind-dominated. That's not the work of spirit. Analytical, conceptualizing, focused on an end result with little or no concern for the means...and willing to annihilate anything which stands in the way of success--that's the mechanics of a mind-based culture. And Individualism is prized much more highly than community...which has some insidious implications when it comes to Global thinking.
These are not judgments, just simple statements of fact. History can attest to it, too. Especially the history of the 20th century.
There's a certain arrogance in thinking Indigenous cultures need to step into the 21st century...and I've been guilty of it myself. Look around you. Does the 21st century look like Paradise to you?
Of course it does, because every home has 2 computers and 3 cars, automatic dishwashers and Sonys of our ownies. We can waste more genetically-modified imitation food in a day than most Indigenous people would eat in a week. We can live for the weekends, play weekend warrior out in nature, and take 3-week vacations anywhere in the world...anywhere that takes Visa or MasterCard (so crushing debt has become our way of life). We have 30 pairs of jeans and wear 3 of them. And we have the best medical facilities in the world...because we need the best medical facilities in the world.
We are the fattest race on the planet. Heart disease and cancer are consuming us the way we consume Indigenous cultures, raze and burn the forests, decimate mountaintops and poison the land. There are more particles of plastic in our oceans now than there is plankton. And there's less and less plankton now because of the climate change our technologies have fed...which means whales and other plankton-eaters are slowly starving. And this is only the cherry atop the parfait of catastrophe we've brought upon ourselves by heedlessly racing into the 21st century, consequences be damned. It doesn't look so much like Paradise these days, does it?
So what's the answer, you ask--return to living like cavemen?
For myself, I think a waltz with Indigenous cultures would be a much better answer than demanding they adjust to our insanity. Their simpler way of life can offer we compartmentalized inmates the chance to escape our minds and live like whole human beings. And we Geniuses of the Practically Useless can offer Indigenous cultures better irrigation practices (since we've stolen their water), better farming practices (since we stuck them on arid land), and...well...we could offer to pay them handsomely for teaching us how to live in harmony with nature and this amazing planet we call home.
Please do not look at the reservations and point out how they aren't doing those things there. The reservations are akin to concentration camps, only the gas chambers are in a different form. Suuurrrreee they can leave the reservation...living a life you don't understand on the streets of some big city has to be a remarkably attractive option. Especially for people who value community...the streets of our cities have to look like Hiroshima after the bomb. Horrible. Frightening.
When I lived in Anchorage, it was a daily occurrence to see a drunken Eskimo defecating on the street corner...or urinating in some doorway. These are people whose ancestors hunted seals and polar bears...they thrived where most of us couldn't even survive. That age is gone...but there are better options than turning a blind-eye as most people want to do.
Sorry for the ramble...I was out running mountain trails and have a lot of energy.
You're a good man, Bluering. Stubborn as heck...and a pot-stirrer (which isn't such a bad thing)...but you have a huge heart--I saw it in that photo of you with your son. Just keep thinking about this...or better yet...keep feeling about it. You'll start to see some amazing things blossom in your life.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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HighDesertDJ.. with all due respect to you and your opinion, but you ain't got a clue. Werner puts in so eloquently, you can't trust a politician. My grandmother was a product of western "civilization" as the white man put it. She was PUT on a reservation, she had her culture, religion and social livelihood taken from her. She could not understand how this government could come in and take from one person with no regard, force them to live a life the government chose for them to live, massacre, steal, enslave, lie and discriminate against them. She could not understand why an Indian had to "register" and get a number in a land that they originally lived in. She told me only animals have to register and get numbers, not Indians. So she had some very personal feelings about the government in this country. Out of respect for her and her feelings(and she was wise beyond my comprehension)I granted her wishes to not participate or register myself and I did this at the age of 4 or 5(go figure)I have not EVER regreted this decision and it has NEVER worked against me. I don't have the same feelings as her, I did not live through what she did. But I do know she and I were very close, she taught me lessons in life at a young age that I still live by and I will honor her wishes out of respect for her. No ill feelings for your question, but there is usually "more to the story than one person knows". Lesson from my grandma! Besides mostly what I hear from people that do participate in the government here, is criticism and unhappiness. Think I'll wait until I can participate in a system that I'm more comfortable with.
Peace
Edit: L, that last line of yours is so freeeking true, believe it Bluering
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Werner, I don't claim to have the truth, but I do know wrong when I see it. I know our system is flawed. But it still seems to be the best thing going.
thanks, L. You're a profound woman for sure.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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I think we need let this thread go with respect to John.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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I am baailing on this post. Some horrible news. Please understand.
Ron
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Went back and re-read OP, and then followups. Regardless of where one stands, a rigorous personal ethic and depth shines through.
RESPECT!
It's a great loss, and not just to climbers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Yeah, boy do I feel like a sack of sh#t now...Of course John did go on to say "Dude, I didn't write it, I was just reading it.... I guess I think too much sometimes, sorry.
I'm a total free market capitalist by the way. "
Thanks for yankin' my chain, John.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I'm done here, Wes.
I've talked to some others offline and I'm going to let this go. I have a lot of respect for Native Americans and I'll leave it at that.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Wes..none taken...John by posting this tread wanted people to think about this issue, something that has been with me since my first encounters with Native Americans my freshman year in college in Santa Fe, NM.
Sending my love to JB family and close friends...I knew John and the climbing world lost a great one.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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L kinda nailed it. As much as I disagree with his political/ecconomic views, Bluering is a caring, sensitive person who really does want the best for everyone. His approach is so different from the paradigm in which my own exists, it's really hard sometimes, to resolve.
Thanks to John, the self proclaimed, "free market capitalist" who clearly had a heart, for bringing up this important conversation, R.I.P., bro it really is more than the shoes...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Yeah, well I talked to some people through e-mails on this issue of Native Americans and how I felt guilty for being a dick to John from his OP.
Truth is I DO have respect for Native Americans and their well-being and treatment. You'd have to be a prick to feel otherwise. Despte what some may feel, I'm not a prick in terms of feeling compassion.
I can be a prick though when it comes to overreacting to a post that I feel is disparaging a great country on it's Independance day.
Do I regret calling John a commie and un-American? You betcha. He did kinda take it pretty well too.
Did I think that maybe my comments he took too personally and caused him to be distracted on his solo? It did cross my mind briefly, but then this is Bachar we're talking about, some comments from a putz on a forum wouldn't distract THE SOLOIST.
Bottom line, be careful what you say to people and be respectful. You never know if that's the last time you'll chat with them.
I learned.
God bless ya, John. While I disagreed with your politics sometimes, I ALWAYS respected you. And always will.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Rest in peace, JB....you always had the balls to get people thinking about things that are real. I read alot of posts here;...but the best one for me was from L....who sends money to the Lakota in Pine Ridge....the reservation schools out there always have so many problems and they always need help and support...there is a School called Red Cloud ( I believe ) that is a private school run on funds (teachers get about 1/3 pay as rest of res schools).....and they really need the help too. I lived and worked out there in Oglala for 1 year, and 2 years with the Navajo.....lots of things to think about when it comes to Native Americans, their past , present , and future.........
As for bluering being anti-Native American;....I see him as just playing devil's advocate, asking some hard questions, and asking us to think about things that make some uncomfortable;....I always get sh#t from people who find my climbing on reservation lands disrespectful;.....but I respect myself for dedicating 3 years of my life to living and working with Native Americans and trying to make a difference in their lives. ...Thanks again to John for being a driving force in my life as a climber, musician, human, and explorer...John is not with us on earth anymore, but his influence on rock climbing changed climbing and the way climbers think forever.......thank you bluering for asking the hard questions and getting us to use or brains more than we sometimes care to.......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Bluering-
"Bottom line, be careful what you say to people and be respectful. You never know if that's the last time you'll chat with them".
Thanks for reminding us of something we should all remember but too often forget. I know I will think more carefully about my replies on ST and elsewhere after this.
I never knew John but I think he would admire your ownership of this sentiment regardless of your differing views. Regret is a useless emotion. We all need to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and try to continue on in a better direction.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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There's over 300 million people in the US today.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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The last thing I said to Seth shaw in this world was, "your time will come." I was talking about glasses, but a serac squished him just a few months later.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I'm just so sad about JB leaving us . . .
Although I didn't personally know John, I met him a few times in the Owens Gorge.
I really enjoyed being able to talk with him here on ST and often times regarding very contraversial topics. I know I push the boundaries, but here at ST, there are others who think for themselves also, and JB definately does. It makes me smile that we were in agreement about many controversial topics. We are both willing to look down the rabbit hole no matter what.
I miss John's presence, in the climbing world, and right here on ST. There are too many of us that leave too soon. I'm just really sad :_((
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Bluering, don't sweat this thread my man. Everybody knows you run hot sometimes and post some crazy shiite. We all do. Whatever it takes to stir the pot, if you ask me. Anybody who has frequented the taco enough knows that you're a good guy. Peace.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Ditto, Bluey.
When I read that John died, I felt pretty bad about the couple comments I made about beating him up.
I was just kidding of course and have nothing but respect for the man and he's known me long enough to know that I was kidding.
I still felt a little bad though.
I drank a couple Arrogant Bastards in his honor yesterday, as I will today.
John was an amazing man and I'm proud to have known him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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Kunlun_shan, I just got the book today.
Thanks!!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 15, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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Jose loved those organic hallucinogens!
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valandtyrus
Boulder climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 23, 2009 - 03:51am PT
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I just read every post here, and I can tell you all that you have nothing to worry about. Knowing John as well as I do, I could see him sitting at his desk and snickering while he read them... This was his last thread, and it was not a disappointing one. He LOVED engaging people in a debate, and you guys had a GREAT ONE. He enjoyed it so much that he made sure to post that poem before he headed out to climb that day.
Sooooo John and sooooooo fitting. You all had me on the edge of my seat wanting to read the next post. Laughing, inspired, amazed... A well needed break. I cannot begin to tell you how much it has meant to me.
Thank you so much!
Val :-)
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Jul 23, 2009 - 04:44am PT
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OK, I lied a couple of times, RIP Bro. Bruce.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 23, 2009 - 10:07am PT
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Hi Val, Yeah THIS was John, my last email to him was about this and how cool it was that this discussion be brought up. He unfortunately never got to read it. BIG Hug for you, see you real soon. Our prayer for you, Tyrus and John!
Peace
Ron
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ί Ξ Ψ T Η H
climber
from the Leastside
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 10:12am PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=535343&msg=535520#msg535520
I said it back in February '08.
What a sad loss. I miss John (great photo).
As for July fourth;
TGT lays out an absolutely marvelous and innovative document that dates to it.
As for indian oppression, as bad as it was (and it WAS), it was worse in South America.
It turned out how it turned out; water under the bridge at this point.
I have no "white guilt". My parents left europe in the '30s.
And much of the world that enjoys freedom today does so because of the greatness of this country and the sacrifice of its service men and women.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Too bad about the Native Americans. A valuable lesson in history.
When the mother ship returns from it's faster than light trek. (About 4 weeks ship time.) They are going to be real pissed to find their campground has been taken over. 8-o
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Jest sending these up for Janno...Knew he didn't care about this...Peace, MP.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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John's last post to this thread, and to SuperTopo, one worth repeating:
INDEPENDENCE DAY FOR NATIVE AMERICANS
by Robin Carneen
When the lands are given back to us, and we don't have to do fund raisers or occupations to get them back ;
When the buffalo are not hazed and killed by government agencies;
When rocks are not sold as souvenirs on Alcatraz ;
When Indian names and images are not used as Sports mascots or for commercial selling of products ;
When we can have equal time in our classrooms across the United States to learn and speak our languages so they are not lost forever ;
When we have funding in our schools so our children can learn;
When all tribes can be "recognized" ;
When we can keep our casino monies and take care of our own;
When we all have health care, card carrying or not ;
When we can have statues that also commemorate our own people;
When we can change historical markers to reflect the truth and not glamorize the murders;
When we can see curriculum in our school books and classrooms that are not romanticized or glossed over when it comes to what really happened in and around Indian Country ;
When we don't have to ask permission to hunt and gather for sustenance, ceremony, or for medicinal reasons;
When all Sacred Sites are in place(and protected);
When our ancestors remains or artifacts are uncovered, the corporation or construction companies JUST STOP and find a different place to build;
When DJ's of commercial radio stations stop putting Indian people down;
When we can get our Indian Trust $$$ back out of the US Government's hands;
When we can get adequate and efficient housing for all Reservations & rancherias & there is no waiting list ;
When we can get more of a variety of commodity foods and some fresh food...like eggs, milk, etc ;
When we can all have enough land given back to grow our own foods;
When our reservations are no longer used as toxic and nuclear waste dumps;
When the US Government apologizes and is held to answer for the atrocities and genocidal acts it did against countless Native American people ;
When our President makes a visit to each Rez and realizes what the USA has re-created in Afghanistan, Iraq and countries to come;
When our ceremonies are not sold by those who disrespect the pipe, the sweat lodge, the sundance and the things that help us heal ;
When we can get roads, power, phones, and computers to the Reservations & rancherias that are without these things;
When we have a gym, clinic, wellness center, etc on each and every Reservation;
When we have our own radio station on each Rez;
When we have more kids graduate from High school and college;
When we have adults returning back to school and getting their GED;
When we have less or no Indians in Prison and jail or political prisoners like Leonard Peltier;
When we have more rehab, preferably traditional and native way facilities ;
When we have more prevention programs and activities on the Rez's;
When poverty dissipates and children and adults do not have to go hungry;
When women are not referred to by the name "Squaw" and men "Chief";
When Winona La Duke sits as President in the White House
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Can't sleep, thinking of John. Funny how this popped up when I opened the Topo. Coincidence?
Peace
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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He, among other people, taught me that heroes were people too. Complicated, flawed and still amazing.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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i think jb's intent
was to shed some light
on the plight
of our native
brothers and sisters
situation and history
on this nationalistic
holiday.
if you read all the posts
in this thread, the outcome
is a success, where ever
you stand on the issue.
gonamok, you had a good post
that i wish was not pulled.
keepin' it
on the one
for us all
funky brother.
dino
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nice post, Philo.
i consider myself a Jimi-friend. A lot of peeps though he was a commie, hippy. He was a patriot. An acid-dropping brother.
I have a lot in common with him. We prolly could have been gud pals. Jimi was misunderstood. But he was a gud dude.
Who does the Star Spangled Bamner like that??? God bless ya, Jimi, and rock on!!!!!!
F*#kin-A!~
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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We miss you, John.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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It's sad that we have been perverted from the Arsenal of Democracy to the Arsenal of Corporatocracy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ten posts and nobody has pointed it out???????????????
JIMI WAS HALF CHEROKEE INDIAN!!!!
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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We all remember John and his family today. He started a thread to get us to think about our foundation.
It's still here, John. And so are you....we will never forget our for bearers of liberty and grandiose climbing.
You made a statement, and it stands.......Rest in peace, bro...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The oceans served as a screen to block those that lacked adventure, vision, and the wish to make a better life with one's own hands.
Hell, even my mormon neighbors who's ancestors were at war with the US government 153 years ago sport the stars and stripes.
I'm gonna bake a potato, barbecue a steak, slice up a watermelon, and crack open a beer, and drink a toast to a country that gave the world a hope for freedom as well as innovations like the revolver, the lever action rifle, the light bulb, the telephone, the affordable car, the airplane (300,000 of them from 1941-45 alone just to win WWII), the television, the personal computer, and, almost forgot, the goddamn successful lunar lander for phux ache!
and to the freedom that let a friend raise his voice in protest of elements of the past likely far more regrettable.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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God Bless America!
RIP JB, Jimi & Geronimo...Three American Legends!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say all.... today is a good day to pray for everyone, everywhere...
and a good day to reflect on many things, past and present...
will also, always remember john, from this...
and the young son, that presses onward, to be a man...
god bless to you all...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Happy fourth to all.
Thank you John, for pushing us to take a real look at this, and other things.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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All of you are celebrating the destruction of the aboriginal people of America.
God bless you.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Tomtom, I'm celebrating Bachar and what he meant to all of us who knew him and/or, were/are effected by what he did in the climbing realm and in his life! Viva El Bachar
Peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Independence is a good thing, a thing climbing fosters.
i HAVE NO ARGUMENT,,,,,
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Perhaps John, wherever he is, is looking on this with that sly grin of his, thinking "Yep, got them thinking, again. That worked good." He did sometimes like to stir up a debate.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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My 4th of You Lie 2010
Peace
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Bump for Bachar today!
Peace
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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/salute
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
|
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Remembering Bachar this 4th of July weekend in 2011.
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climbbjj
Social climber
Tahoe
|
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RIP Bachar. A force of nature. An inspiration.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
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Bachar was as about as independent as they come. Something to consider on Independence day. Amazing.
Take care all.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
|
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The practice of Indian massacre's by native Americans upon neighboring enemy tribes was such a successful tactic that Europeans adopted it quickly.
Sneak attack usually yield good results i.e. SWAT entry.. etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_massacre
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Classic blue, not thinking about anything, and generally being himself, all over agin.
"Jul 4, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
bachar, it's sad to see you turn into a commie, anti-AmeriKan.
we are so screwed as a country with this crap and Bachar going Red on us."
- Recently, in my job (working for a money hungry multi-billion dollar corporation) I have had the opportunity to speak with two different Native American women.
They had every right to be angry (in my opinion) from the problems that had occurred with a move.
Both women seemed more than real to me. Better than my usual "American" female encounters in that there was no pretentious, self important attitude (like many of us Americans seem to carry around with us everywhere.
I had to stop and wonder what was so threatening to those Europeans, English, and early Americans to have to decide to force the Native Americans onto reservations all across the central north and southwestern United States?
It's sad when one knows America could be a whole lot better, for all
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
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That's downright unpatriotic, DMT...you should get stoned for that.
Ok, I'll get stoned.
Wakenbake!!!!
Breakfast at Wimbledon!!!!!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK
|
|
Happy 4th. Bachar lives on in so many ways.
It is not at all patriotic to ignore the terrible crimes our nation has perpetrated and pretend we have only done great things. Both are key parts of our history and legacy.
Have a great weekend. I'm stoked.. heading to Toulumne tomorrow AM. Great climbing, swimming and I got my ribs already marinating for barbecuing at Tenaya lake.
:)
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
|
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"PS: If anyone here has ever personally witnessed the event below, they would clearly understand my post. Nothing else on this planet comes close to it..... nothing I tell ya. Happy B-Day America!"
God bless high explosives........
Google "nits make lice" or "Hiram Bigtooth Gregory" in regards to the Cherokee. May help round out your view! Warning......it ain't a happy story.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
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R.I.P. bachstar!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Rest in peace, John, you are missed. This thread is really weird. It's the last time I chatted with John, and also when the dreaded news of his accident became reality.
Sad stuff, but I think John wouldn't mind me saying;
God bless America!!!
EDIT: Awesome post, Chief! That pic defines the word, 'awesome'.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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PS, that pic from Chief is the visual representation of violence, nothing more...
To me it's just as beautiful, in many regards, as the 'artist endeavors' posted earlier.
Both are beautiful in their proper perspectives. Go ahead, call me a hater or a war-monger, I'm used to it....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
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That picture of the battleship is impressive and is also a symbol of the Pentagon nanny state which in some cases is nothing more than American Imperialism foistered on the American taxpayers..Got anymore overused patriotic cliches Chief...?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
That sounds exactly what my cousin, who graduated from West Point in May, said he spent the last four years studying.
That, and engineering.
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426
climber
☬
|
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I dunno bluey et al, I think you might have missed the OP: point
Bachar:
"The 4th of You Lie" by Jimmie Beason (Osage/Mvskoke)
Every year on the 4th of You Lie (July), patriotic Americans engage in
their multiple colored foray of pyromania by blowing up fireworks to
celebrate the birth of the United Snakes.
This is appropriate as it's a metaphor for Indigenous genocide. The fuse of
colonization was lit and exploded with Manifest Destiny and conquest
ripping through OUR freedom; a true Freedom that existed for thousands of
years before the European invasion of our continent.
Amerikkka's policies toward us have done nothing to help, only to destroy.
Treaties were made and signed with the "utmost honor" only to be broken. In
1492, it is estimated that 5 million Native people inhabited the Western
Hemisphere. By the 1800's our population was reduced to 600,000. At the end
of the 19th century--250,000.
//Looks like a lot of folx didn't click the linky Bachar posted anyhoo; here's the rest...
Hardy patriots who support Amerikkka, claim this country to be the epitome
of "freedom."
But can a country that took the land and freedoms of Indigenous people
boast about "freedom" and how to attain it? Can a country that is built on
thievery, the enslavement of 11 million Africans, resource exploitation and
broken treaties be a beacon of hope?
It becomes apparent that any kind of Independence on the part of "brown"
people was not achieved, but merely turned into a gushing wound wrapped in
legislative band-aids by haughty European-Americans hoping to silence us.
In Iraq and Afghanistan, there our Native brothers and sisters who claim
they are fighting and dying for "freedom." Meanwhile, everyday the State
and Federal governments are seeking ways to continually restrict our status
as Indigenous people--diminishing our rights in our own lands.
It should be noted that everything about their so-called civilization has
nearly destroyed who we are. If we still maintain our ways, it is hanging
on by a thread and threatened to be cut by Christianity.
As a foreign occupying force, the United States retains no legitimacy as a
governing entity and neither do the States. The question is, in what ways
do we prove that? One way is to seriously question their institutions from
religious, to educational to legislative. Then hard work within the
community, creating our own agenda and ignoring their agenda. So on this
4th of July (You-Lie), resist the urge to light some fireworks, because
every explosion and shiny burst represents a Native life snuffed out by
Amerikkka's "independence."//
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So Charles, would you like to see "Alternate Airlines" offered to the traveling public?
No security search but all the planes are equipped with atomizing charges in case they are taken over by terrorists intent on flying into targets.
The pilots are armed and the passengers must sign releases.
But your privacy would not be violated.
Just think of the savings!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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At least in America (due in part by our founding fathers being killers) we can freely state our position on anything without the consequences of immediately seeing our family members decapitated and raped to a mutilated death right in front of your very eyes, within the confines of our home, for even saying such a thing (^^^^dingus^^^^) in public.
I'm married to a member of a tribe who suffered exactly that at the hands of our military. Our nation's founding was accomplished on policies of deliberate genocide and is nothing to be proud of, quite the contrary.
PS: If anyone here has ever personally witnessed the event below, they would clearly understand my post. Nothing else on this planet comes close to it..... nothing I tell ya. Happy B-Day America!
Yes, I've witnessed it from inside a turret, six on six off, for close to a year. And gotta say, there wasn't a single chief on the boat the gun crew cared for or respected; bummer you came onboard after the war as we could have used a chief who gave a sh#t and wasn't an alcoholic. Also, I can't think of a weapon on the planet quite so dated and less worth the cost to operate than a naval gunship after WWII. And lord knows that universal consciousness just has to love and regale in the idea of smudging out all that meat so their energy can return home. Quite the contradiction of spirit all in all.
And at this point, on this 4th of July, the most patriotic thing we as a nation could possibly do is bring Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, Lewis Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams, Douglas Feith, Alberto Gonzales, and John Yoo (all notable among others) up on charges of treason against the United States. The only reason these f*#ks were in power to begin with is the pardons of the Ford and Bush Sr. administrations and by sweeping it under the rug yet again it will return to haunt us down the road.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Please, Blue and others you didn't know John and don't pretend you do.
That was quite uncalled for, Scott. I only knew John from chatting with him here. I never pretended more.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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And at this point, on this 4th of July, the most patriotic thing we as a nation could possibly do is bring Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, Lewis Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams, Douglas Feith, Alberto Gonzales, and John Yoo (all notable among others) up on charges of treason against the United States. The only reason these f*#ks were in power to begin with is the pardons of the Ford and Bush Sr. administrations and by sweeping it under the rug yet again it will return to haunt us down the road.
Amen. You missed a few. At least a through investigation to start with. Won't happen though and there is not a damn thing we can do to facilitate it. Sorry.
Climb safe my brobahms. Here's a thought: that this kind of debate gets carried on with such deeply held convictions and thought is a good thing in my view, it's what this country should have, as upsetting as it can be at times. Thanks for that last post Chief. If we started listing all of the guys we need to thank, we could run out of computer space.
Carry on with this raucous debate all and happy forth of July!! Don't forget to remember the basic idea behind it all: hug and cherish all of your loves ones, THAT'S would Bacher would most likely say if he could pop back in here with one more post from the beyond.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The above two Brave and Selfless souls are indeed are what the 4th of July truly means to me.
Amen, dude. The Hollywood version is still a favorite movie of mine. They shoulda had AC-130 backup...(but it was denied)
Those guys are heroes. Gordan and Shughart. And the guys who made it out.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Bluering...there you have it in a nutshell...Puff should have been doing backup on that mission but some candy-ass college educated politician was calling the shots and the Americans on the ground were swarmed by a mob angry skinnys'...Why would any GI want to put his life on the line for an incompetent politician...?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Why would any GI want to put his life on the line for an incompetent politician...?
Simple. For service to country.
The problem boils down to getting into situations and then not having the fortitude to use ALL available assets on hand to achieve the objective.
That's the bottom line.
Look at Somalia today, is it better? Would things be different if we accomplished the mission intended with the use of overwhelming force, and probably inadvertently killing some innocent 'skinnies'?
I think so. But because we have silly ROE, 2 brave American snipers are dead amongst the others who died there, and the country is still rotten.
Makes me sick. Either go in and do it right, or don't go in at all.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Charlemagne sans Mahomet serait inconcevable.
Fatty, the above statement completely changed the historiography of relations between Islam and Europe. An entirely new perspective. Who said it, when, and why is it so important? What can we learn from it today?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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There's no rational reason why a small republican experiment in 1776 grew to dominate global culture and society except that this is the only nation, past or present, that trusts the individual rather than the state and its bureaucracy. Such confidence in average citizens made us absolutely exceptional something we should remember more than ever on this Fourth of July.
And a few make the sacrifice to keep it so.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Unselfishly? You have reminded us 1000 times on the internet that you served. You were paid for doing a job. Now please, stfu.
Hey, look, dipsh#t. If somebody wants to VOLUNTEER to serve and protect this nation FULL-TIME, they should be fairly compensated. It is a JOB and a service. They have to pay bills and take care of families like we all do, asshat!
You are the epitome of stupid and ungrateful.
Chief, 99% of the American population gets it. Some don't. Thanks for your service!
Don't let dipshits get you down, bro.
EDIT: Nice quote, Wendell.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So all was not so peachy peac and loving rosey in the land of the Native American Indian before Whitey showed up.
They didn't just kill each other either. They were truly savage in their dispensation of each other.
But that doesn't fit the narrative of the noble 'native'...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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So all was not so peachy peacey white and rosey loving in the land of the Native American Indian before Whitey showed up.
Warfare was the constant and central cultural focus of many of the tribes.
The concept of "noble savage" is a European fantasy.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Our forbears did do something exceptional.
The Fourth of July may be just a holiday for fireworks to some people. But it was a momentous day for the history of this country and the history of the world.
Not only did July 4, 1776, mark American independence from England, it marked a radically different kind of government from the governments that prevailed around the world at the time and for thousands of years before.
The American Revolution was not simply a rebellion against the King of England, it was a rebellion against being ruled by kings in general. That is why the opening salvo of the Revolution was called "the shot heard round the world."
Autocratic rulers and their subjects heard that shot and things that had not been questioned for millennia were now open to challenge. As the generations went by, more and more autocratic governments around the world proved unable to meet that challenge.
Some clever people today ask whether the U.S. has really been "exceptional." You couldn't be more exceptional in the 18th century than to create your fundamental document by opening with the momentous words, "We the people."
Those words were a slap in the face to those who thought themselves entitled to rule, and who regarded the people as human livestock, destined to be shepherded by their betters. To this day, elites who think that way including many among the intelligentsia as well as political messiahs find the Constitution a pain because it stands in the way of their imposing their will and presumptions on the rest of us.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/577120/201107011811/Does-Constitution-Still-Matter-.htm
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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There were places where the was conflict, and place where native people lived pretty peacefully for 1,000's of years. The coastal tribes on the west coast a ton of resources, and rarely fought except over personal issues.
The northwest tribes were famous for throwing a potlatch, where they would give away most of their wealth to gain prestige.
It is a mixed bag.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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EVERY civilization has been caught up in unimaginable atrocities towards other humans, nothing new, and it will not go away, doesn't matter how many people serve...
Charles
How many can you name that actually recognized their past failings and took corrective and redemptive actions?
Nobody's perfect, but God. By the grace of God we've learned to redeem our injustices, and to bring our peace and prosperity to others. Sometimes at tip of a pen, sometimes the tip of a sword, and sometimes at the tip of a Hellfire missile.
God bless America.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nice post. Wes. Indian reservations, huh?
What would you like to offer Native Americans that they don't already have?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Geeze Wes...We gave the Dog indian tribe any nuclear test site that they wanted and they are still ungratefull...? WTF..?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Ahh, that Bachar, always trying to push people's buttons. He started something with this thread!
Here's more from the same guy. I think John woulda appreciated this gem:
Tribal Seduction
By Jimmy Beason
Thirty miles beyond the outskirts of town, bright purple and red neon lights capture the attention of any lonely traveler in a hypnotic seduction of the visual senses, seducing drivers and gambling junkies to a tribal burial ground of money where sanctified cash spending frenzies solidify our sovereignty of currency. Where a war party is waged upon the pockets of the American citizens to destroy their homes and red-headed childrens college funds using sacred slots and holy black jack tables to advance our revolution against poverty.
Pulling up to the front door in the circle drive, the 17-year-old valet with delinquent tendencies takes the keys to your black SUV. The gamblers eyes fixate on a giant water fountain arrogantly greeting all saps who enter. It shoots streams of water from the top of a huge 10 foot dollar sign superimposed over a magnificent 40 feet tall eagle feather welded together from steel and spare parts from broke-down Indian cars hastily abandoned on the side of a dirt road once news of the 20,000 dollar casino checks got around.
The constant bleeping sound of cash machines is followed by a scream from the sixty-year-old white lady with a beehive hairdo trapped in the 1950s, after she spent fifteen hours straight sitting on a wooden stool pumping her retirement check into the slot of Indigenous persuasion. A procession of coins flows from the spout like a raiding party. In moments the cashier will come along and verify the win, and hopefully a picture will be taken in order to document the pay-off.
In the middle of addicted 20-something yuppies and old people is a platform where a white woman with blonde hair sports a buckskin thong and giant white headdress dancing to electric-pop-tribal-drum music, with the back ground chorus singing hey-ya-hey-ya heeeyyyy.
For one hundred dollars you can go with her to the VIP lounge to get a private dance inside a replica plaster tee-pee on a buffalo skin, viewed by Indian mannequins in 1800s dress. For two hundred dollars its anything goes for 45 minutes. All you do is walk up to her and say the password. Its frybread.
At the edge of the casino is an island bar with drink specials. A young white kid with Native features and a spray-on-tan will serve your favorite liquid of sedation to help you forget. The fact is the money that was to be used for food, juniors braces, car payment and house rent will go to the tribe that your great-great-grandfather helped massacre at the same site where the casino is built, when he rode with the U.S. Calvary in 1800-something.
Modern Indians in braids walk around giving money and taking money, checking IDs to make sure you are old enough to be gullible and to ensure that the term "saving money" is not in your vocabulary.
This is sacred ground.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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particularly your hateful stance on immigration and immigrants. You are well primed to fall right into place.
What is my stance again??? You seem to know it so well.
And are you re-defining the word 'resource' to suit your idiotic agenda?
And did you answer my previous question as to how Wes would provide further help to Native Americans that already isn't being provided?
No.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"The war in Iraq was similar"
in 1991, american forces controlled ALL the oil fields in iraq AND kuwait...who controls them now?
in 2003, american forces once AGAIN controlled all the oil fields in iraq...who controls them now? how many of the new contracts went to american firms?
fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me
name another nation, JUST ONE, who, after thoroughly defeating an enemy, then provided money, labor, and armed protection for that enemy to rebuild their infrastructure, government, and society?
any guesses? any guesses how many times this ONE nation--the ONLY one--has done this? i'll make it easier...guess how many times in just the last decade
the romance of the noble savage is as empty as the south's lost cause...the destruction of the native cultures in the western hemisphere is an ugly mark on our heritage; however, to roundly condemn america as singularly or uniquely guilty makes even less sense than barry's claim that taxing corporate jets will solve our debt problems
humans of every color, ethnicity, nationality, race, religion, etc., have been conquering each other since adam and eve (ok, cain and abel)...the word navajo translates most directly as "human being"...get it? if you ain't navajo, you ain't human...one way the navajo thrived was by preying on the hopi--a non warrior society--for slaves; yeah, i said it, SLAVES
think about all those mexicans claiming california actually belongs to them...how did they get it? i'm fairly certain there weren't any mexicans in california prior to 1492...seriously, if we're guilty of taking the land from anyone, it's the spaniards...or, maybe the texans who actually took it from the spaniards...or did we get it from the french?...or maybe the chinese who got here first by walking from asia...but, they weren't really chinese...
i'm pretty sure the libs who control the schools are telling the kiddies about america's war with the natives--just like they told me 30 years ago
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Ah, bookworm. You always sum up my thoughts in a more peaceful way, with more decorum.
I'll continue to play bad-cop. You continue your righteous path.
Well said, my friend. And rock on! Have a good Independence day.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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in 1991, american forces controlled ALL the oil fields in iraq AND kuwait...who controls them now?
Allied forces - nearly 1/2 not from the US - liberated Kuwait and occupied some of southern Iraq in 1991. They didn't occupy or control the oilfields of central and northern Iraq - over half - apart from the ability if they'd used it to destroy them from the air. Iraq had limited ability to export its oil - insufficient pipelines, international embargo - but still controlled it.
Myopic triumphalism gets rather tiresome.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The best thing we can do for humanity, of which Native Americans are an important part, is to make sure the same atrocity doesn't happen to others.
One thing we absolutely SHOULD NOT do is displace thousands of current inhabitants to form a "nation" based on bullshit ancient fairytales... you know, like they did in Israel.
That doesn't answer my question. In your mind, you should commit suicide because you're not not worthy of this land. Either that or move back to Europe, with Lolli.
Have fun!@
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426
climber
☬
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great Comanche Warrior, David Yeagley.
Known in tribal circles as an "apple"...
Comanche Chairman Wallace Coffey: "Yeagley Is a Far Right Racist...I Am Against How Yeagley Thinks....He Does Not Represent the Comanche People"
but, way to argue from "special exception"...so-(read links)-it is doubtful he is Comanche, still, given "bloodlines" even if so...
I guess you agree with old bad eagle? str8 up off Yeagley's website?
So, as a dark man, Ill say it.
Superior beauty is in the white race, with its scintillating varieties of color: red, brown, amber, golden hair... green, blue, light brown, gray eyes. In the darker races, everything is always the same, dark brown and black―?a beastly bore.
http://www.badeagle.com/html/up_dark.html
There's some even crazier chit on his site (even in that link) imo, but seems you're not getting Bachar's OP even with a "less than casual" reading...
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426
climber
☬
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Myopic triumphalism gets rather tiresome.
Sigh...
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"The best thing we can do for humanity, of which Native Americans are an important part, is to make sure the same atrocity doesn't happen to others."
oh, the irony
"One thing we absolutely SHOULD NOT do is displace thousands of current inhabitants to form a "nation" based on bullshit ancient fairytales... you know, like they did in Israel."
ah yes, those poor, defenseless arabs who nobly circumcise their daughters then stone them for getting raped or hang their gay sons...just imagine what a wonderful place the middle east would be if not for the jooooooooooooooos... and, of course, the un
"Does it matter to you at all that the vast majority of "Mexicans", and many Central and South Americans, occupy the same general geographic area that their ancestors did?
wes, does it matter to you at all that the vast majority of AMERICANS occupy the same general geographic area that their ancestors did? hey, my mother's japanese (and a proud american citizen), which means she's really chinese and since the chinese were the first ones in north america i'd say i have a more legitimate claim to cali and everything south than any "mexican"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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ah yes, those poor, defenseless arabs who nobly circumcise their daughters then stone them for getting raped or hang their gay sons...just imagine what a wonderful place the middle east would be if not for the jooooooooooooooos... and, of course, the un
I wonder what our resident socialist, Lolli, has to say about that. It is a fact.
Wes? Wanna live in a place where clitorectomies are common? Where gays are hung? And the chix are stoned?
Americans are so oppressive...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There were a lot more than five million people living in what is now called the Americas in 1492. At least 50 million, maybe considerably more - the 'ologists are still quarrelling about it. Pre-contact populations usually dropped to about 10% of what they'd been within 50 years after contact, largely due to disease and violence by colonizers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Americans are so oppressive...
Nope, just stupid.
Are you American, Wes?
Lolli, no offense really, but your country is destined to failure. Prolly sooner than you think. You can be saved, but not with attitudes such as yours.
2 words, Geert Wilders. I know, you hate him....
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Hey, let's not forget
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
-misattributed to Thomas Jefferson
He did actually say this, though
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable
on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but
better so than not to be exercised at all.
I like a little rebellion now and then. "
Please don't call me unpatriotic, spoiled, ungrateful, without honor or integrity just because my views on war and the military differ from yours.
Ok?
Thank you.
Happy Sunday.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Like "prolly"? That's a non word that means "I'm lazy".
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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With all of this intellectual back and forth, this guy still doesn't look convinced:
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fivesix
Big Wall climber
hope, alaska
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I just had an awesome climb! You know the type where its just challenging enough to keep you hooked but not enough to shut you down! man i love that.............-huh? what? everyones bickering about america? hmm. I could sit down and list millions of things wrong with this country and the thousands of races and individuals it has wronged. Isn't a bit selfish to promote and highlight the wrongs that were done to just your race when there are so many other atrocities that are left unmentioned? Sometimes problems are far too big, complex and premeditated to even warrant being approached, let alone fixed. Some fires just have to burn themselves out. The world is often a horrible place and I've found that a certain level of detachment is required to preserve sanity. I love climbing because it puts you in a place where nothing else matters except figuring out that next move or getting that next hold before the elvis leg ruins your smear. I'll be at the crag whenever everyone is done throwing stones at the human race. No one ever said humanity was on a righteous path and then lost its way. As far as I'm concerned its been one giant downward spiral. So i'm going to spend the rest of my existence enjoying it the best i can, in my own way surrounded by whats important to me.
I'll be on the wall,
-d
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426
climber
☬
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I just wanted to substantiate the actual average monthly dollar amount!
like others, u argue from special exception. I don't think you can put a dollar amount on bigger ideas i.e. Trail of Tears. Unless you actually want to start walking from Georgia to Oklahoma...
I take that back; you technically could actually put the dollar amount;
Despite the majority opposition to this treaty - opposition that was led by Principal Chief John Ross - the eastern lands were sold for $5 million, and the Cherokees agreed to move beyond the Mississippi River to Indian Territory. The senate ratified the treaty despite knowledge that only a minority of Cherokees had accepted it. Within two years the Principal People were to move from their Ancestral homelands.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/trail-of-tears.htm
it seems you are still missing JB's "overarching" OP...
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426
climber
☬
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Sometimes problems are far too big, complex and premeditated to even warrant being approached, let alone fixed.
I disagree; I'm more of the mindset that below is "truer" than your quote...
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein
So i'm going to spend the rest of my existence enjoying it the best i can, in my own way surrounded by whats important to me.
Grats!
A problem is a chance for you to do your best.
Duke Ellington
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Got to spend the weekend with some incredible people, celebrating John.
Peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nice shot, Ron. Have a good day.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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My wife and I are good friends with a couple, one of whom is a member of the Pechanga tribe. It is true that each adult member gets about $15-$20K per month.
For much of the tribe, the money corrupts like "new money" often does (drugs, excess, etc.) You have to be 18 to receive the payments, and the tribe does try to educate their members about managing their money (and the tribe's image.) Our friends are educated and handle it well, but they are an exception.
The tribe members tend to have lots of kids because the money is distributed to each adult - bigger family, bigger slice of the pie.
The Indians with casinos are shrewd businessmen and they know how to play the public. The voter initiative about adding slot machines a few years back had me laughing. Those commercials showing impoverished Indians had everybody fooled - the Indians living in squalor weren't going to see a dime from the slot machine revenues.
The treatment of the Indians by European settlers was atrocious and should never be forgotten. Fortunately, the casino Indians will never let us forget - there's too much money to be made.
BTW: Helen Hunt Jackson's Ramona is a good read on this subject. (Lots of references to Southern California locations - even the San Jacinto mountains/Tahquitz) The book itself is fiction based loosely upon actual events, but to book's historical influence is important and somewhat forgotten (even my Pechanga friend had not read it until I gave her a copy.)
Also, Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel is a fascinating read on the subject of why some societies developed the technology to conquer the natives of other continents.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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My 2 cents worth:
Endless name calling (by people promoting peaceful solutions ironically), back and forth with diatribe trying to prove why yours (or someone else's thoughts) are the perfect solution seems to be not working.
It ain't happening. No form of government is perfect or a cure-all for the problems of humanity. Rude discourse such as insults and belittling of someone else's ideas or thoughts simply discredits any positive thoughts you might have.
With political lines drawn (borders) as well as variations in habitat, religion, history and all other natural and man made factors there is no workable solution to the problem.
Thanks for letting me spend it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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viva la raza!
Go back to Europe, whitey....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Hope floats.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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420 burn time
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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fuk you ya little bitch.
I am staying right here, living in peace with "the people."
you and your kind will perish by your own hand.
Well, that makes you a hypocrite. You rage against persecution of minorities like Indians, yet you are part of the 'machine' that 'holds them down'.
And La Raza, by definition, is a racist organization. Just like the NAACP. They may not be as overtly militant as other groups, but they're racist.
These guys are priceless;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM
And me and "my kind" will perish at our own hands? This dude is my kind;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ6cCPbA8jo&feature=related
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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You guys DO know that we're ALL just Gonna Die anyway, right?
What World would You leave? You get the one you get.
How about your Great-greats? What do they get? Nobody asked to be here.
As far as I know. WhatinHellDoIKnow? Sheesh.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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They were celebrating the 4th in Paso Robles. I wonder if they got May 5th off?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Just re-read the whole thread. Amazing. I took today off to go fishing, but this thread pulled me in.
John probably laughs robustly.
What I don't think anybody has taken the time to contemplate is that our 'founders' came here to flee oppression, not to impose it. They had the kindest of intentions. They did not come here to kill people and steal land. They came to find a new land and sought freedom.
What happened after that is history. And it is regrettable. I even believe that the people involved in the expansion of the colonies would have regrets as to how it all played out.
We never, I believe, wanted to exterminate the Indians. We were too blinded by expansion. They got in they way and resisted. And attacked us in brutal fashion that ramped up our rage towards them.
I think the original colonists would have played it out differently in hindsight. They weren't savages, and neither were the Natives that were initially met.
That said. I still think we have taken good care of their culture and welfare. They will never have the land they had, as it was. But I fall back to my point that, the world evolves. America was going to be settled by somebody. Would it be better if the Chinese got here first? The Russians? The Japanese? Or the Spaniards?
I think America is doing pretty well. And Native Americans are a national treasure, and always will be.
Cheers John!!! Rest in Peace, dude.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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They had the kindest of intentions.
Now that has me laughing robustly!
There are Americans that absolutely wanted to exterminate the Indians. There are those who did not. Some people had more power/influence than others. Opinions and influence change with time.
Thus, the outcome that is history.
"America" is not a single character in the story.
There is no "we."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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MP, I think that goes without saying. It's a given.
My point is that we came here, initially, just to flee England. We just wanted to be left alone to live. Of course, that changed. We grew in numbers, expanded, and imposed.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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There are Americans that absolutely wanted to exterminate the Indians
The founder of the Democratic party in particular.
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dirtbag
climber
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He does this all the time.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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what a dumb fuk ^^^
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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There are Americans that absolutely wanted to exterminate the Indians
The founder of the Democratic party in particular.
Gee, I never realized how evil the Democratic party was. Now I cannot agree with them on anything! Such a relevant and convincing argument for keeping the Bush tax cuts in place.
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dirtbag
climber
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The Dems haven't changed, Obama is trying to sell out Israel. The Dems believe in genocide.
Says the bloodthirsty Chickenhawk whose masturbatory bombing fantasies are legendary.
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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This thread is a tragic comedy. Blu your history knowledge sounds like it comes from a early 1960's 5th grade class book. You should read howard zinn's (Peoples History of America?). I think Zinn flew planes in WWII.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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TGT, the fact that you refer to "the democratic party" as if it is the same today as it was back then solidifies your status as a fuking moron.
And yet you are comfortable comparing the colonists to racist, eugenistic Nazis.
EDIT:This thread is a tragic comedy. Blu your history knowledge sounds like it comes from a early 1960's 5th grade class book. You should read howard zinn's (Peoples History of America?). I think Zinn flew planes in WWII.
Where is my history flawed? Flew planes, huh? What does that have to do with anything????
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Quote from a review of Zinn by a real historian, Oscar Handlin, at Harvard for 50 years.
Hence the deranged quality of this fairy tale, in which the incidents are made to fit the legend, no matter how intractable the evidence of American history. It may be unfair to expose to critical scrutiny a work patched together from secondary sources, many used uncritically (Jennings, Williams), others ravaged for material torn out of context (Young, Pike). Any careful reader will perceive that Zinn is a stranger to evidence bearing upon the people about whom he purports to write. But only critics who know the sources will recognize the complex array of devices that pervert his pages... On the other hand, the book conveniently omits whatever does not fit its overriding thesis... It would be a mistake, however, to regard Zinn as merely Anti-American. Brendan Behan once observed that whoever hated America hated mankind, and hatred of mankind is the dominant tone of Zinn's book... He lavishes indiscriminate condemnation upon all the works of man that is, upon civilization, a word he usually encloses in quotation marks
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dirtbag
climber
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Brendan Behan once observed that whoever hated America hated mankind, and hatred of mankind is the dominant tone of Zinn's book...
I've never read Zinn, but that is a very stupid thing to say.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Although I enjoy a contrarian point of view, there is way too much self-loathing in Zinn's stuff.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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While religious Zionists certainly played a roll in the founding of modern Israel, the dominant forces were secular (and even anti-religious).
So if you're going to be hating on Israel, at least do so for the right reasons. Start hating on all the those left-wing kibbutzers.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Peoples History of America is a collection of writings by Americans.
And the collection reflects the bias and prejudices of the collector.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So the only difference between you and Zinn is the fact that Zinn put in an effort to collect writings from a variety of sources, while you collect propaganda from the same bullshit sources. That and the fact that Zinn is educated.
Hahahaha!!! So that means he's right?
Sounds like a commie to me. It's no wonder you have a hard-on for him.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Zinn's only academic creds weree as a political science teacher and activist.
He's Not a historian and has zero cred in that field.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Now it's time to impoverish, disenfranhise and make life miserable for some Arabs.
The Dumbest Fuk of all one
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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He's Not a historian and has zero cred in that field.
Let's not go that far. Zinn is required reading in many college history curriculum. That counts for cred. A lot more than "zero."
But I know, academia is just a bunch of commie liberals.
(BTW: Didn't someone quote a Harvard professor somewhere up-thread?)
Now if you are looking for real academic cred, try Bachmann's alma-matar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Roberts_University
(sadly, the law school where she got her JD has since shut down)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Education has a liberal bias.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Let's not go that far. Zinn is required reading in many college history curriculum. That counts for cred. A lot more than "zero."
But I know, academia is just a bunch of commie liberals.
Because it's 'required reading' by liberal profs gives it credibility???
At least you acknowledge that most of them are either stone-cold Marxists or left-wing Dems.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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If you believe in reincarnation, it is possible some climbers of note, such as Bachar, were American Indians in a previous incarnation. Being a climber in this life was a way of enjoying some of the aspects of that lifestyle; adventure, semi-nomadic, spending time in wild and spectacular places, etc. Ron Kauk also looks to me like a reincarnated native American.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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If you believe in reincarnation, it is possible some climbers of note, such as Bachar, were American Indians in a previous incarnation. Being a climber in this life was a way of enjoying some of the aspects of that lifestyle; adventure, semi-nomadic, spending time in wild and spectacular places, etc. Ron Kauk also looks to me like a reincarnated native American.
Interesting perspective...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Comrade F,
I hate everyone equally, makes me non-racist, very fair.
Yeah, me too. Call it hate or love, but I give everybody an equal shake. Got nothing to do with race.
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Blu ; How could he (Zinn) be commie if he flew bomber missions in WWII ? He served his country in the Good war and now you are calling him a commie. I'm sure he would love to have that conversation with you. How would you answer him?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I'm sure he would love to have that conversation with you. How would you answer him?
He died in his pool last year. That may be a bit difficult.
He was a self avowed socialist.
Also popular with punk rockers.
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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you are the naive one there Fat. as I asked before - do you really believe the crap you post?? or just trollin'?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Behold the awesome power of Fattard (quote from a few years ago):
Somebody send me a real e-mail if Williamson is really going to be closed, I can solve the problem in about five minutes.
Jody's evil twin.
You really "solved" that problem, eh Fats?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Fattrat, Crowley ate your lunch every day for years.
I know Eric Cantor, and you are no Eric Cantor.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jeff, the overriding consensus is that you have the single worst prediction track record.
It must be awful to have so many waiting to hear you speak and then fading you for instant profits.
Really, take a basic civics class.
Give Crowley a call for some lessons.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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^^^^^+11^^^^^
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krahmes
Social climber
Stumptown
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Talk about thread drift; but I did want to address this:
here were a lot more than five million people living in what is now called the Americas in 1492. At least 50 million, maybe considerably more - the 'ologists are still quarrelling about it. Pre-contact populations usually dropped to about 10% of what they'd been within 50 years after contact, largely due to disease and violence by colonizers.
I think you mean the Spanish in this instance because they had run of the place for 120 years before the pilgrims showed up.
Put me down for a guess of 15-20 million. With jibes with this cut and paste job for the internetz.
Unfortunately, the estimation of the population of the Americas at contact has been the ground of political agendas and pseudo-science. The people that want to prove massive genocide put estimations as high as they can, while dreamers that believe in missing civilizations in Patagonia or Amazons, also inflates the numbers. The fact is there is no census of people at contact.
My guess is around 15 to 20 million people for the whole Americas. That figure makes sense according to the historical descriptions. However, it doesn't fit those people who are fascinated with the "90% of extinction" urban myth.
We as a state and nation apologized to the western tribes in 2000 for the ethnic cleansing that occurred in the 19th century.
Still I love me the Paiutes even if they dont love me. I dont begrudge them wanting to ghost dance me away, but Im staying and my bones will go to earth here. Still think those two bolts on the back and the piton on the front should get yanked out of Winnedumah.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Krahmes, your chart is titled "Pre-Contact Estimation of American Population", not "North American" or "The Americas". And one is forced to observe that the correct title should be "Pre-Contact Estimates...", which is what it is. There is surely an anthropologist or other 'ologist around who can accurately inform us as to the pre-contact population of the Americas - the subject at hand - including minimum and maximum credible estimates, and the median.
Bump for #500, and John.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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tis the season for us amuricans to
don our plastic disposable diapers
as we ready ourselves for some rough
and tumble cultural excess.
we's king of the 'dumb.
get in our shoes,
they fit everyone of envy.
join our ignorance.
be our stupidity.
pound your pride in and out of steel vaginas
cause we've the coin to
buy out oil's to lubricate our
industrial fornication.
f*#king world, smarten up.
you fools just follow us brilliance minds,
you'll see, our religion,
our economy,
our society will lead the way for the rest of
the sorry sapien tribe.
don't argue,
just subdue.
don't dream,
just mimick us.
it's our birthday dammit.
drink a budweiser and put some
extra mayonaise on your sandwhich.
america is growing up.
(all sarcasm aside, the current political majority
actually hints that america is maturing.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Like the age-dated constitution
The Cans of Bud lie there ignored
Defended only by the ones who cast them aside.
They'll be picked up by the homeless
Or the aging pensioners too slow to have chosen "the right stock"
And now totally depend on booty.
The rags to riches story of the boy wonder
Is told not in the lies of the mythology of Middle America
But here, Rather, Mr. Brokaw.
And the Greatest Generation led to Baby Boomers
And the Gen Ex led to some outlandish people
Calling themselves my grandchildren.
Call back Jenny Lind, 'the Swedish Nightingale.'
Then we will have a duet performed with 'the Norwegian Thrush'
Accompanied by whining about First World Problems.
Make mock of our past but hope for the future
For they'll be doing it to us some day.
All Grasshoppers die. Some just die rich.
So, what?
"I had some US Savings Bonds but they never matured."---Ancient Teenager
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deschamps
Trad climber
Out and about
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Hmmm... Did some native tribes not forcibly displace and attack other tribes before the arrival of Europeans? Europeans are not the only ones to engage in this kind of behavior. It has been around since the dawn of mankind.
Does that make it right? No. But it puts it in perspective and shows that you can't blame one race for this kind of behavior.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
Just ran across some old George Carlin skit.... to lighten things up.
This entire country is completely full of sh#t and always has been. From the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution to The Star-Spangled Banner, its really nothing more than one big, steaming pile of red, white and blue, All-American bullsh#t.
Because think of how we started think of that. This country was founded by a group of slave-owners who told us all men are created equal. Oh, yeah. All men, except for Indians and n***ers and women, right? (Always like to use that authentic American language.)
This was a small group of unelected, white male, land-holding slave-owners who also suggested their class be the only one allowed to vote. Now that is whats known as being stunningly and embarrassingly full of sh#t."
Although I never met him, I always admired John Bachar and considered him a role model. Lecturing the rock climbers about racism, right on. It's a pretty white sport, after all.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Pulling out the "Race Card" to see who won?
Romans, but they weren't right.
Huns, incorrect.
Martians of HG Wells, mistaken.
Islam, so full of woe.
Protestants, it's so easy to be a critic, but hard to live up to your code.
People who fight people, that's where heroes come from.
Enjoy your neighbor today.---the Zombie's creed
We enjoy a liberal standard of double-standardism here and I love that Constitution of ours, flawed as it seems.
Anyone says different can go piss up a doubled rope and go back to fecking Oz or UK.
I am partial to a good Victoria Shirazz though, Blue.
You might say I'm full of it, but these are just loose thoughts. Wait'll I spew...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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The Communists could not win.
God was not on their side.
What would His pinko Son say?
[Big just-in-case Smiley Face: pink not white or yellow or black.]
Kandy Korn image of colors united.
Fourth of July gets one excited.
Fires start cracking with bomz bursting in air.
Watch out for sparklers caught in your hair.
Romney, Clinton, Perot and the Bushes,
Come clean you big sluts,but watch out for your tushes.
You all lied about stuff, your cred is all gone,
Go get in a line. Deal with 'em Ron.*
We'll save you the pink plug, Obama. How dare you cover up gun trafficking?
*The choice is yours, Mr. Presidents, Piton Ron or Ron A.
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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To any who would deny the white man's encrochent on native American's, I would encourge you to visit Cherokee North Carolina, and see "Unto These Hills". It certainly brought a tear to my eye, as well as gave me a better understanding of exactly who we are as a country...
"The Cherokees encountered their first white man in 1540, Spaniards searching for gold. 250 years later Tecumseh, a hotheaded warrior from the north urged the Cherokees to go to war against the white man, but Junaluska with counsel from Sequoyah decided it would be best to live in peace with the white men. The Great Eagle Dance - a dance of triumph from the past is performed to celebrate the victory the Cherokees and the white men claimed at Horseshoe Bend against other Indians that threatened the American Nation, but the victory celebrations were to be short lived.
One of the most compelling outdoor dramas, Unto These Hills, tells the tragic story of how the Cherokee ancestors were forcefully driven out of the Great Smoky Mountains and marched 1,200 miles to Oklahoma. You will never forget how Tsali gave his life as sacrifice, so that a handful of his people could remain on the land of their heritage."
This is truly a very tragic and sad story of the white man's heritage in this country. We should be ashamed.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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travesties against the american indian come a little more recent than the century-ago wars, deportations and treaty violations. when the american indians started to feel a little political muscle in the shadow of the civil rights movement of the 1960s, they organized into AIM, powwowing around the country, organizing marches and legal actions and bringing public attention to the "trail of broken treaties"--trying to curry some support from us liberal hand-wringers.
AIM was serious, however, and took it as far as an armed showdown in south dakota. all the while, the FBI had planted a serious spy in their inner circle, a man by the name of douglass durham, who, totally illegally, became privy to their meetings involving legal strategy, reporting back to the federal government. with AIM they also developed a technique known as snitchjacketing, through the use of such illegal espionage, causing deep suspicions among the leaders of the movement against each other. the death of anna mae aquash, on a lonely road following some dark threats, may have been carried out by fellow AIM members--or, many suspect, by the FBI itself. look into it, if you give a god damn. you'll find much of it in a well-researched book, beyond bullets: the suppression of dissent in the united states by jules boykoff, a professor of political science.
when it all went down and the federal government crushed them again--reminiscent of the chinese communists in the tian an men massacre--the two principals, dennis banks and russell means, decided just to stop trying. banks stayed on the rez and devoted himself to helping his people in smaller ways, and very admirably. means came to hollywood and gave us some noble savage footage in a few movies about the old travesties.
one of my favorite american indians is buffy st. marie, a beautiful, talented, passionate singer and artist. in another kind of battle of the 60s, president lyndon baines johnson was known to get on the telephone from the white house and personally appeal to radio stations around the country to keep buffy's song, "the universal soldier", off the air.
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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in another kind of battle of the 60s, president lyndon baines johnson was known to get on the telephone from the white house and personally appeal to radio stations around the country to keep buffy's song, "the universal soldier", off the air.
That's some seriously grim stuff man. Karma's gonna be a bitch.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Already had this cry. Done.
NEXT!
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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Genocide against native Americans is about as antiAmerican as you can get, but ironically some people think that looking back on our country's (real) history with a critical eye is unAmerikan.
Yep. I guess if some had their way, they'd put all sick, old, ill, and whomever else needed some/any sort of government intervention on the Rez.... Hell, just put 'em on the Rez, give 'em some firewater, and they'll be fine, they'll shut up and leave us alone.... so we can rape and pillage all the downtrodden out of whatever they have left. Yep.... were so cool, we totally rock because we have our crap together, let those drunken fools lay in the bed we (they) made for themselves.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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If the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868 was honored, all those pesky injuns would still own wyoming, montana, and south dakota.boy, thank (white)god that never happened! How would we ever have gotten all that uranium, and wiped out the buffalo, and gave them casinos and carved a bunch of faces in Paha Sapa?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Bachar was the man. Too bad I wasn't hanging around here, before he left us, but one of his greater legacies is the knowledge he left behind for us here.
Thanks JB, RIP!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Again, it's always a pleasure to have the occasional thread where people can self-identify as bigots and racists, even if it's the same few again and again.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I worked a year on the Fort Peck Reservation, one of the 13% white population living in Brockton, MT
where about two thirds of the population live under the poverty line.
Teen suicides are rampant
kids ending their lives for being suspended from the basketball or wrestling team or losing a boyfriend/girlfriend. Yes, white kids do it too.
The common threads are depression, self doubt, financial problems, alcohol use, lack of family bonds
and in the case of some Amerindian tradition and seasoning
a certain suicide contagion that engenders such tragedy by impulsive thinking and a social recitation that glorifies the victim.
and, of course, sequestered and disassociated on the reservation...their social calamity is abstracted away from a mainstream whitebread America.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And the BIA and Interior Department are essentially still at war with our tribes. My wife's tribe is, as I type this, just now settling with the federal government for pennies on the dollar of 'mismanaged' (properly read as 'looted') tribal funds. Similarly in the Cobell case which has been going on since 1996 they are still wrangling over the details of a settlement. Every Secretary of the Interior since Gail Norton has been found in contempt by the special master of the case for allowing the BIA to repeatedly destroy records. The BIA was caught again and again destroying paper records as well as dropping firewalls and turning off Interior department security to allow "unknown parties" to destroy BIA land, lease, mineral, timber, and Indian Money account records. The entire Interior Department was taking off the Internet several times, the third time in 2004 - Skeptical appeals court lets Interior computers back online.
If you look at tribe after tribe, they have been systematically stripped of land, resources, and monies right through to the present with the 1950-60s being a real highlight with the Indian termination policy of 1953 as inacted by the House Concurrent Resolution 108. The Klamath tribal lands shrunk from 20 million acres in 1864, to 2 million acres in 1954, and then were systematically stripped to today's 308 acres.
My wife's tribe on the Colville Reservation have similarly stripped from several million acres down to 2,100 acres today. And in the 1930's a bogus treaty was signed for the Grand Coulee Dam construction and even that bogus document promised electricity, irrigation water, and a percentage of the annual electricity sales in cash - none of which ever materialized until 1994 when they again settled for pennies on the dollar.
I have no qualms whatsoever saying the US government genocide of Native American peoples just shifted into an administrative mode over the course of the 20th century but was and is just as ruthless and effective in the mop-up mode today as it ever was. The tribes have only recently been starting to fight back after growing about five generations of successively more sophisticated lawyers who understand how Washington works.
It's not something from our past, but rather something we choose to hide and not look at as Jennie said - all the way around it's disgraceful and makes a mockery out of July 4th each year.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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In humble response to jBachar's post, I cannot agree. As simple as that.
When we are military we are not different colors.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Nobody lies like a dead soldier except the guys next to him.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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When we are military we are not different colors.
Then we as a nation should just be open and honest about the fact we are still militarily engaged with Native American tribes.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Don Paul, those were pretty cool photos. Thanks for sharing them. I liked the Ament and Bachar shot. What a nice surprise.
MFM
I posted this Buffy song, her most pungent, to the Patriotic Song thread: Rainbow Quest.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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It's interesting in light of the late JB's comment that Adolf Hitler felt he was patterning the Ost Plan for racial genocide after the precedent established by white European Americans as they colonized the Western frontier and exterminated the indigenous native peoples. I think I read somewhere that Hitler said that the Volga River was going to be "our Mississippi", implying I guess that after all the Slavs and Jews were exterminated the trans-Caucasus was going to be colonized by Germans and other Aryans. IOWs: Hitler believed that the US had established a pattern for establishing a white racial hegemony that he was following implicitly during Operation Barbarossa. Interesting that an Austrian like Hitler would see another version of the American dream that didn't exactly conform to freedom, democracy and equality.
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
|
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Fattrad = clueless.
great posts Doug, Tony Bird, and Healje.
Whenever someone talks in general terms about the behavior of American Indians they do not know what they are talking about. Every tribe was different in terms of government, 'world view,' in their experience of 'first contact' and how they responded to first contact. There is significant evidence that Pre-Columbian tribal interactions were quite different than those recorded by europeans. For example, most think of the Lakota as plains indians - but that was not their traditional homeland. they were pushed west by other tribes that were getting pushed west.
I learned about the Indian termination policy of 1953 reading "Klamath River of Renewal." Highly recommended book - author provides a well written history of the Klamath basin that led to the Klamath water wars. A tentative agreement was negotiated by the regional stakeholders that included ranchers, and tribal representatives. Many of these ranchers are the direct decedents of the original homesteaders. The original homesteaders from the Scott Valley and Yreka had invited the Shasta Indians to celebrate a new treaty. They poisoned the food killing 3,000 Shasta Indians that day...Now, do you think that was old history to those surviving Shasta descendants sitting down with those ranchers to iron out that agreement?
Regarding Ron's statement that this tribe hates that tribe which hates that tribe...I know locally that a couple of tribes do not like each other, but that is a post contact phenomenon. We have about a half dozen tribes each speading a different language that, precontact, shared important "fix the world" ceremonies, intermarried, and had agreed upon methods for conflict resolution. Maybe those tribes you mention did too if you dig a little deeper.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Yeah, but we have wal-marts! Fast food! It's all a lot better than what was here before. Go drink out of your local river, you'll see!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
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There is significant evidence that Pre-Columbian tribal interactions were quite different than those recorded by europeans. For example, most think of the Lakota as plains indians - but that was not their traditional homeland. they were pushed west by other tribes that were getting pushed west.
Do you think that tribes were pushed around in pre-Colombian times? If not, I imagine you're whacked, but OK.
If so, what exactly does "traditional homeland" mean?
The history of the world is the history of groups doing mean things to other groups--settlement of US by Europeans is a good example of that but by no means unusual.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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There is but one duty: to Germanize ["the East"] by the immigration of Germans, and to look upon the natives as Redskins. Quote attributed to Adolf Hitler in the link above.
Hitler learned that you can't mess with the people who have the money. Then they created a state for the Jews because of it and pissed off the Arabs and created the current state of affairs. This society is soooo unsustainable.
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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Jul 3, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
Why Fire works????????????/
we don't have to have a firework orgasm for any other holiday
Uh new years?
Yea we (as a nation) live in a post constitution era and have seriously screwed many people. The Nation is still known for Liberty and Freedom and for that it has been good for the world.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Had a good talk with Yerian this morning...we talked about the early history of the B/Y and his and John's trips up the route. Some great and classic information he let on. Just got off the phone with John Bachar Jr., John's Dad, we also had a great conversation, he is well and sends his regards on this hard time of the year.
Viva Bachar!
Peace
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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The New Age Blitzo
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Strange how I have found myself going through my Bachar photos the past couple days.
Miss ya, John!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Blitzo, went up to the base of Medlicott when I got here. Remembering the man and the friend. Lynne
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Ron Anderson, why are you still hatin' on the injuns?
you won!
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juar
Sport climber
socal
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the rich and powerful always believe themselves the most oppressed
[ all that stress, guarding the stolen loot ]
the farse of july.
Melissa Harris-Perry is never one to mince words,
so for her MSNBC show's inaugural Independence Day episode, she got right down to business. Let's, too:
The land on which they formed this Union was stolen; the hands with which they built this nation were enslaved; the women who birthed the citizens of the nation are second class.
Word up like Cameo. She also discussed the failings of the American dream, observing that its emphasis on materialism is a mere fraction of the freedom it takes to get there.
watch
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/1019432/melissa_harris-perry%27s_awesome_4th_of_july_address%3A_imperialism%2C_genocide%2C_and_slavery/#paragraph6
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Thinkin' about ya Brother! Thanks for the times, memories, and friendship!
Peace
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Bachar bump.
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2 l l
Sport climber
Rancho Verga, CA
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And then he died the next day... At the risk of being nitpicky, he posted the morning of the 5th, before he went up to the lakes basin.
bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 10:12am PT
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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No whining for me... I'm going to a special fouth of July baseball game...
VS.
Whilst I never met him, I wish I would have.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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It's nice to see this thread again, as a reminder of one of the major shapers of free climbing in the U.S. Am I mistaken, or was this an uncharacteristic post by Bachar? I don't recall him ever taking much of a public stance on political issues.
It's also nice to be reminded that celebrating the 4th of July is about remembering the things (or are they just ideas?) that make the U.S. a great nation, like equal opportunity, quality public education, respect and preservation of the natural environment. Hmm, maybe this thread's title is becoming more and more appropriate. Of course, a characteristic of old farts is that they say things were better in the past. Maybe they were just more innocent and ignorant then.
At any rate, the spirit of John Bachar is alive and well.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I'm glad this is here every year, part of John's legacy. Much as I love this country and living here, there is some sh#t that is f*#ked up that's not gonna get fixed unless we keep it in our minds and keep plugging away at it. Thanks John for reminding us of this, and inspiring us as well!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Rest in peace, John. Me miss you.
This thread is embedded in me. I will never forget our interactions and your exploits.
You are a BachStar!
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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As long as ST lives so does this thread and the spiritedness and memory of JB.
Long live Supertopo and long live the memory of irreverant John Bachar.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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There are some terrific contradictons in the history of this nation. Slavery, genocide, but then a willingness to make incredible sacrifices for others. Think of WWII: countless examples of selflessness and virtue. On the whole, I see our country as an ongoing experiment that still requires what the Founders described in the last sentence of the Declaration of Indendence:
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. I didn't know Bachar well, hardly at all really, but I believe he would have approved of that sentiment.
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old craghag
Sport climber
Bishop
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With each telling of a story it changes a little. Its easy to see how the the truth gets lost. No wonder the history books can be so inaccurate.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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I'm glad I had a chance to share my sushi creations with him.
And get super f*#king drunk :-)
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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TT - ...rest in peace Virginia Parker. sad that i will never see Virginia again. we laughed so much and she had such great stories. we were roomies for one season on the eastide, good times. last time i saw her i waved goodbye as a whirley bird was lifting her up and away. she had dislocated her shoulder on fairview and i took part in the rescue. she was a very good friend. poor Virgina, the world treated her so poorly, she deserved so much better. RIP
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Going to Pow Wow on the Flathead-Salish Rez I am reminded again of this thread and the wisdom of contemplating the subject of the Native American genocide at the same time as we also celebrate our nations's birth. May we never forget.
At these events I see great patriotism for this county. In this part of the community I see a people where men to be men are warriors who enlist and proudly serve. They make a big deal out of it including this particular dance which was dedicated to veterans.
Going forward into the future I see the NatAm melting into the greater gene pool but the many positive traditions being kept alive through celebrations like this.
I strongly support turning Columbus Day into a holiday that celebrates Native American culture.
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saa
climber
Bleau, cham, pink granite coast
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Bump for master john bachar.
it's been what... 3 years now? (July 2010?)
honnors and wild night campfires in thuolomne...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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go-B
climber
Cling to what is good!
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...no lie call on the Lord and be forever free!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Tomorrow - 5th - is the date. This time of year is tied to him for me.
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couchmaster
climber
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Best post of the thread? On July 4th 2009, the late Blitzo said: "Can't we all just get along? Our time here is limited! "
That was his entire post. Sadly, so true.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Walleye beat me to it!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Good post TGT.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I nominate saa for the ST math and history award,..
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pa
climber
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Great shot P! Kelly and I will be in Tuolumne end of July, I'll give a call beforevwe pass through. Bottle of wine??
Peace
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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How come fireworks shows get a pass on air pollution? Not to mention noise pollution.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Time Lies!
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philo
climber
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This is the original post that started this thread. RIP JB.
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 4, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
Just read this and made me think a little too much.... jb
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 4, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
Just read this and made me think a little too much.... jb
"The 4th of You Lie" by Jimmie Beason (Osage/Mvskoke)
Every year on the 4th of You Lie (July), patriotic Americans engage in
their multiple colored foray of pyromania by blowing up fireworks to
celebrate the birth of the United Snakes.
This is appropriate as it's a metaphor for Indigenous genocide. The fuse of
colonization was lit and exploded with Manifest Destiny and conquest
ripping through OUR freedom; a true Freedom that existed for thousands of
years before the European invasion of our continent.
Amerikkka's policies toward us have done nothing to help, only to destroy.
Treaties were made and signed with the "utmost honor" only to be broken. In
1492, it is estimated that 5 million Native people inhabited the Western
Hemisphere. By the 1800's our population was reduced to 600,000. At the end
of the 19th century--250,000.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NatNews/message/47386
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 4, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
bachar, it's sad to see you turn into a commie, anti-AmeriKan.
we are so screwed as a country with this crap and Bachar going Red on us.
Amerikkka's policies toward us have done nothing to help, only to destroy.
Treaties were made and signed with the "utmost honor" only to be broken. In
1492, it is estimated that 5 million Native people inhabited the Western
Hemisphere. By the 1800's our population was reduced to 600,000. At the end
of the 19th century--250,000.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NatNews/messtage/47386
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 4, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
bachar, it's sad to see you turn into a commie, anti-AmeriKan.
we are so screwed as a country with this crap and Bachar going Red on us. Y
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Thanks for the recap Philo. Great example of two viewpoints. One sustainable, one not.
I am a Native American culture officianado and frequently attend modern PowWow dance celebrations. I have observed there are few people more red-white-and-blue patriotic than Native Americans.
One point of cuture in the PowWow scene is that NatAm Veterans are celebrated with the "gourd dance." Many men come out with their old-time costumes and march in dance step wearing the patches of their US Marine uniform. It seems that being a warrior is still a value in modern NatAm culture.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
This PowWow has been celebrated continuously for 117 years, ever since NatAm dancing was made legal in Montana:
http://www.arleepowwow.com/
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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The Pawnee Indians of Nebraska held some of the best real estate in the Midwest prior to EuroAm occupation. They never really opposed Euro occupation and were recruited as Scouts for the US cavalry to fight other tribes. They adopted the red-white-and-blue theme early on. (from various sources of study)
Note the giant grizzly bear claw necklace, often composed of 36 claws. Typical of Pawnee attire. Imagine killing a few of those bad boys with sharp sticks. The long triangles on the legging decorations are thought to represent bear claw motif.
"Buffalo Bull: A Grand Pawnee Warrior," by George Catlin, 1832.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Re Bachar: Met someone the other day that said her ex husband shot a bunch of film (movies) of Bachar back in the 90's . I think he was doing a documentary. May not have released it. She said she would check with him if he ever released it and still has it. thought someone on ST would be interested form n historical POV.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Rest in peace, John. I remember this thread well.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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I have observed there are few people more red-white-and-blue patriotic than Native Americans.
and yet, they were not allowed to vote until after WWI.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Picture on one of my favorite t-shirts.
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couchmaster
climber
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PSP or PP said: Re Bachar: Met someone the other day that said her ex husband shot a bunch of film (movies) of Bachar back in the 90's . I think he was doing a documentary. May not have released it. She said she would check with him if he ever released it and still has it. thought someone on ST would be interested form n historical POV.
WOW!!! That needs to be finished, lots of filmmakers would love to wrap that film up.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jul 4, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
bachar, it's sad to see you turn into a commie, anti-AmeriKan.
we are so screwed as a country with this crap and Bachar going Red on us.
What a moronic comment, but considering the source. . . . . .
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Thanks again, John!
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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J.B. was a champion.
As long as I live
I shall never
forget that.
Love and respect.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Always a sad day since his passing. Thinking of you Tyrus and P!
Peace
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Thinking of my Brother!
Peace
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I enjoy seeing JB's thread bumped every year like this. It is something to think about.
NA tribes competed for space and good hunting without ever getting organized. It is a valuable lesson and metaphor for humans on Earth.
Our nation is a great place and what has been done is done. Never forget that this great place was built on genocide and slavery.
It was not really necessary but it was a path that was taken and is done. Throwing money at our last natives and former slaves just degrades them.
Picking up the spirit of all people being equal, having right to live life, and working to uplift all people of the USA and of Earth is what we need to do to right the injustice of the past.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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^^^^ This
It is not about money, it is about taking responsibility.
Edit
Humility is not a weekness, even for a nation.
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symphony#1
Trad climber
first chair
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our current national identity is an embarrassment on the world stage.
John Bachar, a man of stout conviction and deep substance, would no doubt be appalled.
as am i.
we've taken the moral low road, because greed, ignorance, denial, and hatred are the easy emotions.
selfishness is comfortable.
america is filthy, right now, building it's negative legacy.
we've put our pursuit of gross excess in front our
our compassion towards those in need; before our
acceptance of those whom differ from us; before our
respect of women, and before our acceptance of science.
these emotions referenced directly above: compassion, acceptance, respect, and intelligence are the difficult emotions; hence the current aversion to them.
but america is strong in it's core values. and the lazy, immoral, ignorant, selfish and hateful denizens among us will die out, and a new, upstanding and valiant demographic will again prevail.
not until then can we hold our head high.
not until then will the world again respect us.
and not until then will this wounded country begin its long, arduous healing process; picking the shattered fragments of its once
courageously humble soul.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Loco de Pedra
Mountain climber
Around the World
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We can't change our past, but we CAN have a better future. I believe self forgiveness will enable one to practice self love. Once one learns to love the self again, (s)he will be able to love others as well.
I wish tranquility and peace ✌️ for myself, and all of you.
Climb on!
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symphony#1
Trad climber
first chair
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i thought i'd celebrate today
by flying from my vehicle today
the usa flag next to the gay pride
flag in gesture of solidarity to
that threatened aspect of our ill-culture.
and i'd probably wear my
wife's pink slip-over dress
and introduce myself to the detractors
in my redneck town as
aunt sam.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Welcome back, you have been missed.
This thread's title bears thinking about, as does the memory of John Bachar.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Happy Independence Day, America! We hope you get well soon.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Every year I look forward to the contemplative time I spend with this thread reminded of things and seeing how far we've come or fallen.
We're in a pretty bad way. This thread inspires me that we can do better.
I'm sorry that he left us, but I'm glad he left us this.
Thanks again for this John.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Throwing money at .. former slaves just degrades them.
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/news/press-releases/Black-Girls-Viewed-As-Less-Innocent-Than-White-Girls-Georgetown-Law-Research-Finds.cfm
My sense is that money is not what we throw at them.
The spirit of all people being equal - hear hear! But we don't believe they're all equal - we believe 5 year old black girls don't need as much protection as 5 year old white girls - that 5 year old black girls are more capable of succeeding in their environments than 5 year old white girls.
Maybe it makes sense that we reward white girls' families with 13 times the median wealth of black girls' families? They need the protection that money can buy.
The inequality of our beliefs isn't a defect - it's a feature that works to our advantage. People just learn to have different beliefs about who "we" are.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Happy Independence Day!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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^^^^^^^^^
I fixed your typo for you. It's:
Dependence day.
Putin is making America his Puto.
I Trump est El Chupadero Massimo de Putin.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Tis the season....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Let the flag waving begin and END with this day.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jim Clipper
Gym climber
from the ground up
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Let the flag waving begin and END with this day.
Flags are important symbols. History is complicated. Exercise your rights. Maybe, continue the debate, especially now.
Below: All hindsight, but regrettable support of an oppressive regime. Still, they helped stop the Khmer Rouge and somehow pushed back the Chinese. Also, I've heard from a professor that conditions for workers in Vietnam are better, in general, than in China.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-trial-of-abbie-hoffma_b_2334
Sincerely, thanks for your Doninines. Aloha, okagesama, salaam... I'm sure there are other examples. I've worked with some migrants, who proudly wave the flag (at times). Happy 4th!!!
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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What Jaybro said above certainly bears repeating.
What happened at Standing Rock recently?
Have we changed?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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What does her shirt say?
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Jim Clipper
Gym climber
from the ground up
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American Indians would have still, in all likelihood, faced violence and oppression absent American independence, just as First Nations people in Canada did. But American-scale ethnic cleansing wouldn't have occurred.
Maybe I'm a bit too contrarian. The British weren't colonial?
Instead of what could have happened, maybe what can be?
Currently, there is a migration of Indigenous, people, from Southern Mexico to the U.S. Actually, it has been occurring for the last 20+ years, in part due to NAFTA. Trump is talking about re-negotiating trade laws. I can imagine how that might work out for both corporations, and the poor. Corn power?!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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What does her shirt say?
"This ain't NO @&#*%$# Weenie Roast"
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Jim Clipper
Gym climber
from the ground up
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Thread drift alert:
What does her shirt say?
"Trump Care Makes US Sick" Romney care? I don't know if that is still a thing.
It looked like she was trying to mess with the sling wrapped around that big knob. Maybe she saw that it wasn't hitched.
If you need an anchor, build it proud.
Hope she's not called out on it. Finally, I don't know, but maybe Bachar would smile. He seemed to recognize the other side...
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Jul 5, 2018 - 08:45am PT
I do not vest my pride in a flag, I eye those who wave them suspiciously. It seems those waving hardest pay homage to a false idol and desecrate the ideals for which we should really stand.
Good one Jebus.
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TClimberByTrade
climber
Santa Ana
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May 22, 2019 - 06:00am PT
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bluering I am not a commie. Away from Stennard this issue discusses some of the first known violent acts of genocide against Native Americans. They committed the acts against themselves.
The US has admitted to a low estimate of 2000 and a high estimate of 6000 deaths of Native Americans during the Indian Relocation Act.
Native Americans and Religious persons of all races still practice genocide against themselves here in the US.
Populations have also decreased greatly here from disease. See Spanish Flu around WW2.
Now for JB, RIP.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 22, 2019 - 08:43am PT
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Thanks for the bump Klimmer. John's final statement. A harsh reality to think about.
The last great accomplishment of mankind will be to adjust the injustice of the past.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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May 22, 2019 - 09:19am PT
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I'm sure it's different because many folks here knew Bachar as a friend, or at least were lucky enough to have some shared experiences with him. I just want to say that being able to read some of his stories and see a bit of his perspective here on the taco was really pretty special.
These days, it seems like some are more likely to try to monetize their "online presence", or at least seek more in return. Then again, maybe it was more about sharing memories among friends who were experienced.
2cents from a fan ... from the ground up.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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May 22, 2019 - 07:25pm PT
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Don't lie.
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immanti
climber
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May 30, 2019 - 02:20pm PT
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... I'm a total free market capitalist by the way. -bachar
Well said, JB.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 31, 2019 - 11:07pm PT
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I'm sure JB would appreciate the latest Alpinist story "magic line", about Lonnie Kauk and some of the history of the Ahwahneechee. Really enjoyable stories there.
Lonnie's mom, Lucy Parker is quotedThere's an old Indian camp at the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne where the tribes would come from all four directions to trade with each other. And there are these writings down there, these pictographs all over this rock wall. Some of them are really high up. I remember the first time I saw them, I thought, How the heck? But I realized, they would've had to scale the wall. Our people were climbers, too
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