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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 17, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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The 1988 Stonemaster calendar featured the following superb Oppenheimer quote about style.
"It is style which complements affirmation with limitation and with humility; it is style which makes it possible to act effectively, but not absolutely; it is style which enables us to find harmony between the pursuit of ends essential to us, and the regard for the views, the sensibilities, the aspirations of others; it is style which is the deference that action pays to uncertainty; it is above all style through which power defers to reason."
I would like to use this quote to open the first chapter on style in the book that I am writing about Tom Frost. Those of you familiar with Oppenheimer's writings, could you please let me know where this particular quote appears so that I am absolutely clear about its original context. I haven't been able to place it thus far.
Cheers- Steve
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Gene
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Steve,
Given the nature of JRO's life work, his relationships with peers, his duplicity, etc. are you sure you want use his quote regarding Tom Frost. For me it won't work.
With respect,
gm
Edit: I'd defer to Ed H.'s opinion of JRO's character. He'd have a much better idea than me.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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Thanks Greg.
I too am concerned with the context given the outcome of the powers at play in JRO's life, hence the thread.
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Gene
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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Yeah, Steve. Look for something tomorrow as I have a full plate right now. Father of the A-Bomb is a start.
gm
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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Hey Steve, all I did was pick a unique phrase (compliments affirmation with limitation), go to advanced search in Google, put oppenheimer in the general field and that particular phrase in the "this exact wording or phrase", then picked the original looking one out of the top hits (the 1949 Atlantic one).
Note that your quote is missing the "in the domain of foreign policy" phrase of the original, so it'd be more accurate to put a "..." in the quote if you decide to use it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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We should include Einstein in the lineage to be fair, mindful of the terrible nature of atomic weaponry. Piton scars do not come anywhere near such a destructive outcome but the concept of style does apply in both cases.
I haven't asked Tom about the quote until I have done my contextual homework. Opinions about the Bomb vary pretty widely. Best not to assume anything from where I am writing...
Nothing harmonious at all about Hiroshima or Nagasaki...Point taken about "the domain of public policy" exclusion.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Steve:
You should probably research some of the books on Oppenheimer. A recent article in Physics Today about Wheeler quotes Wheeler as volunteering that Oppenheimer first mentioned the concept underlying Black Holes with him, an area in cosmology in which Wheeler was actively working. In many places Wheeler has been credited with the idea. The two did not get along but that did not prevent Wheeler from according Oppenheimer the profesional credit he had earned.
As to the atomic bomb I think we would need to imagine we were back in the 1940's and worried about what would take place had Germany the technology. Many people have tried to claim we had enough intelligence data to know apriori that Germany would not succeed and so should not have persisted ourselves. Being wrong would have had a cost anyone at the time would have judged to be unacceptable and, IMO, just so even now in retrospect. And no one had doubts about Heisenberg's brilliance. Indeed, according to what I have read Oppenheimer was one of the early people to move out in front urging care and the appropriate control of this technology. That was in fact one of the brick bats thrown his way.
As to Joe McCarthy and all of that I have two words to say.
Rush Limbaugh=Joe McCarthy
Where I am wrong in any of this, I would hope to be corrected.
I assume you and Tom have talked about this project. I happen to agree it is something that needs doing. But who am I?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 17, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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J. Robert Oppenheimer was an important American intellect, and a complex man. I think not more complex than any other important figure of his time. I would think that quoting him is without prejudice.
If his "duplicity" refers to his extensive associations with the American intellectual movement in the pre-WW II era, it was driven by his curiosity, and his adventurous intellect. His contributions during WW II are amazing. What happened after the war were a part of the dark tragedy of that time, some of which we are still trying to come to terms with.
That is my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Rush has no real power or moral authority and so his sideshow style doesn't really concern me. He is an entertainer and no more than that.
What interests me is the personal aspect of style, how one frames one's own life experience philosophically.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 17, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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Recently finished editing a writup on the birth of the bomb, had to fight to get these quotes inserted so as not to paint too bleak of a picture of Oppie's personality:
“It is true that we are among the few citizens who have had occasion to give thoughtful consideration to these problems during the past years. We have, however, no claim to special competence in solving the political, social, and military problems which are presented by the advent of atomic power.”
"If atomic bombs are to be added as new weapons to the arsenals of a warring world, or to the arsenals of nations preparing for war, then the time will come when mankind will curse the names of Los Alamos and Hiroshima. The peoples of this world must unite or they will perish."
He was a very complex character, indeed.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 17, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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Boy, this is a hard one.
Hard to separate the quote from the taint -- our rightful ambivalence toward his product -- of the quoted. jstan is right, Oppie's times were vastly different, but you can't land that context on the page with his words. The words have to punch today.
At first blush I find the quote too complex, even too ambivalent in aim within itself, for a headquote. I picture opening the chapter, seeing it on the page. I feel that minutes later I'm still within the byways of its thought, teasing out what it means. So it does not feel like an arrow pointing me toward what you are about to say about Tom.
Tom -- he does embody some of the political adroitness called out by the quote, but is that his main quality? I see him firstly as a great heart bright light, his good will leading the way and smoothing out contradictions with moral force and good will. "The pursuit of ends essential to us" has the feel of mere politics rather than the larger channeling of the energy of the Cosmos, which seems more especially Frost.
This feels too nuanced; where's the bright spotlight illumiating Tom's salient style?
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Gene
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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Thanks Ed.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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Would you really seriously leave off an Oppenheimer quote because of post-war Red baiting?
The best argument against the quote is that the vast majority of readers in your audience 1. won't bother reading it; 2. won't bother trying to understand what it meant then; and 3. will have even less interest or ability to imagine what it might mean for your subject. For most, it'll remain at best a bit of ornament.
For folks really interested in Oppenheimer, Bird and Sherwin's American Prometheus is the best-known, serious biography.
But the various essays in Carson and Hollinger, eds., Reappraising Oppenheimer, are probably the best way into the political battles. Bird and Sherwin have an essay in there, too.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 17, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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Oppie was a complex guy. And the Manhattan Project might not have been done when it was done if it hadn't been for him. But I wouldn't blame the A-Bomb on him -- it would have happened sooner or later, and probably better that he acted as at least a slight restraint to nutballs like Teller. Certainly Oppenheimer was at least deep enough to realize the possibilities of what he had done.
As to what happened to him after the war, it was disgraceful (as was so much of the Red-scare-witchhunt). He may have had some socialist leanings, but there seems little doubt that he served this country well when he was asked.
Another good reference on him is 109 East Palace, by Jennet Conant, whose father was one of Oppenheimer's contemporaries.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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Ed- Thanks for that thoroughly illuminating reference. I knew that you had probably spent some time and energy wading around in JRO's pool.
Doug- Personal style unlike ethics is such a complex mix of history and influences as to be somewhat elusive. The quote in question is going to make almost anyone think widely and in personal terms. It prys open the intellect straight away...
The counterpoise to the proposed quote is Glen Denny's wonderful photo of Tom grinning down at the belay in the midst of "aceing" the third pitch of the NA, the most fearsome aid lead on the planet. Don't let Tom seduce you with thoughts of simplicity of character or belief. He is a very deep, dutiful and serious man even though cloaked in lightness. That is the wonder of my investigation into his life and ways.
Whatever I write needs to pass his muster first and foremost but I greatly value your perpsective in the conceptual and formative stages of this work.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 17, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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I think you should freely use Oppenheimer’s thoughts. In fact you must, I insist!!
He was a paragon and I believe remains so long after his death. He was as Ed and John note, in a tremendously pivotal position as the leader of the Manhattan Project as the Axis inexorably was destroying western civilization and the Pacific Theater as per plan. A really horrendous point in world history. He was a great moral leader among his peers in applying for arms limitation and containment of deadly knowledge: more than most, he did all he could to bring to a stasis the spread of the Destroyer once they understood how insanely powerful it was in practice and the goal of stopping the Axis was achieved.
The House Un-American Activities Committee and McCarthy of course got a hold of him shortly thereafter largely destroying his career despite his huge and wholehearted contributions to the Allies and science. HUAC even wiped out my mother for quite awhile. And some nasty colleagues of Oppie turned on him unnecessarily or greedily. Among these perhaps a more salient one was the H-bomb monster Edward Teller who lost most of his credibility testifying against Oppie. I knew him, his son; his daughter Wendy was a very close friend of mine at Berkeley High School as was Owen Chamberlain’s son, Noel. The trouble even continued there at lunch hour!!
Oppie was a good technocratic leader certainly, but his initial work on gravitational collapse is viewed by many as his most important theoretical work and some go so far as to propose, for it he would have won a Nobel. It is thought that were he not so widely focused his scientific work might have had a deeper scope. In sum he paid dearly for the kind of politics and morals he maintained during perhaps one of our worst spots in history as far as civil liberties are concerned, at the peak of the Cold War. He retreated to the Virgin Islands and his New Mexico ranch near Los Alamos, largely marginalized.
He died of esophageal cancer at a young 62 years old (1967), his wife of intestinal and pulmonary complications five years later and his daughter Toni suicided 10 years later after failing to get a UN security clearance as an interpreter. The incredibly distinguished family had paid very dearly in service to the Allies and the US.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 17, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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einstien quote in an old gpiw catalog: "a perfection of means, and a confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem" or words to that effect.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jun 17, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Steve,
A complex issue. To relate his quote to climbing IMHO will lower the ultimate value of your book. I have seen how spirited and opinioned your thoughts are on style ( I am not debating your thoughts). FWIW, I myself have soloed new routes on site that were dangerously close to my on site ability 10d back in 1984. I climbed El Cap in a day back in the early 90's via salathe and nose for my own style considerations. All that sh#t is sport and mostly style.
Style is not a factor in the Manhattan Project. To me ethics in climbing means whether we destroy resources for future generations. Style is a choice that only affects ourselves.
In my current job I am responsible for $4Billion of the cleanup of the Manhattan Proj. Frankly, Oppenheimer did not have a clue as to the affects of what his team accomplished (positives and negatives).
He did what he could to resolve some bad things in his time using the unique skills he had. That resembles some things climbers have done.
Comparing Style of lives, Billions of $, world politics in terms of climbing is IMHO ridiculous. one could argue that Bolts all over El Cap would save lives, just as the justification of the Manhattan Proj.
What we do as climbers is selfish. We do not through climbs resolve world peace, nor spend billions of $, not influence world politics.
If you want to write a book about starting on those parallels then I think you start off on the wrong foot. And since I risked my life in climbing for my personal ideas about that, and since in my professional job I am dealing with the impacts of the Manhattan Project I do feel qualified to offer up that advice.
It is in no way comparable. But good luck in your adventures.
Gary
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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In Camp 4, maybe early spring 1963, Roper pointed to a distinguished looking man with an attractive younger woman. "That's J. Robert Oppenheimer and his mistress".
"Everybody who is anybody eventually shows up in Camp 4".
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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"It is style which complements affirmation with limitation and with humility; it is style which makes it possible to act effectively, but not absolutely; it is style which enables us to find harmony between the pursuit of ends essential to us, and the regard for the views, the sensibilities, the aspirations of others; it is style which is the deference that action pays to uncertainty; it is above all style through which power defers to reason."
What's that mean in street language?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 18, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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There is a story about JRO having dinner with General Groves. Groves says "You know why we are building this bomb?"
JRO "Because of the German threat"
Groves "No, to keep the Soviets in line after the war is finished"
I have read that many of the project scientists were shocked when the military actually used the bomb.
Someone once said "Oppenheimer's physics is brilliant but his math is always wrong"
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 11:11am PT
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Werner- To tighten the scope of discussion down to climbing, what does style mean to you? We all use the term but its meaning is delightfully layered and elusive.
Eric- Wonderful Camp 4 connection!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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the last sentence/paragraph of the article Greg posted a link to is a fantastic prophecy:
"It is in our hands to see that the hope of the future is not lost because we were too sure that we knew the answers, too sure that there was no hope."
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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What does style mean to me?
I have no clue, Steve.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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the paragraph before the quote of Steve's is an important lead in to it's meaning:
"The problem of doing justice to the implicit, the imponderable, and the unknown is of course not unique to politics. It is always with us in science, it is with us in the most trivial of personal affairs, and it is one of the great problems of writing and of all forms of art. The means by which it is solved is sometimes called style."
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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Hahahaha H Bomb reasoning "sound"
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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This subject is far too deep for my limited powers, nonetheless......
Style has nothing to do with what we do.
It has everything to do with what we do not do.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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Hi Steve,
Lots of good ideas from posters.
A quote like the full Oppenheimer one you like is fine for a calendar, where readers have a month to mull it over (or ignore it!), and just the concept of a quotation from someone like Oppenheimer is startling, but for a start of a first chapter you really want something that will get people's attention and interest, and keep them reading.
Myself, I read the whole quote and kinda stumbled, and had to reread the thing two or three times to understand it. Not a good start to a book.
If you really want to to use it (and I have the same reservations about Oppenheimer as others here), better might be to shorten it:
"(I)t is above all style through which power defers to reason."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Steve, I don't know what your style is... as an author... I like the quote but it doesn't lend itself to the goal of such a thing, which is to capture the reader and make them want to understand it in the context of the subject.
To that end, perhaps paraphrasing Oppenheimer's introductory in the proceeding paragraph:
"The problem of doing justice to the implicit, the imponderable, and the unknown ... is one of the great problems ... the means by which it is solved is sometimes called style."
and then go on in the Introduction to your quote....
I think this introduces the parallel, Oppenheimer goes on to talk about "style" in national and international relations, but in that one paraphrased excerpt, he introduces the concept of style to everything we do: "science, it is with us in the most trivial of personal affairs, and it is one of the great problems of writing and of all forms of art."
You are free in the Intro to expand on that idea and explain why it is relevant to Frost and the style which he exemplified in climbing.
Just a thought...
...writing by committee is often a horrendous enterprise which fails to satisfy the hope that something good will result.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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We are now all sons of bitches.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Fattrad, you found Teller reasonable?
You're aware he was pretty much the model for Dr. Strangelove?
That he advocated using nukes for mass excavation of construction sites?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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Juan's quoting from the Manhattan project scientists...
reportedly from Brainbridge to Feynman upon the success of the Trinity test
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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Ed- Believe me, I don't care to write by committee! I brokered this thread in search of context and have received that and more. My presence on the ST is thoroughly intentional and respectful of the wealth of experience and wisdom among all who care to jump into any discussion. I like hot topics and spicy food for thought and JRO clearly satisfies...
Jstan- You have humbly hit the nail again squarely. I believe that one doesn't truly grasp or understand any power until one is prepared to relinquish it. The wherefore and the why in each of us is the central enigma that fascinates me. I can't be Paul Preuss but I carry him with me in spirit always.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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History has not been kind to Edward Teller, who appears to have been an exceptionally nasty person in addition to his other qualities.
So far as the model for Strangelove, the debate contintes:
http://www.slate.com/id/1002029/
Kissenger was known, at the time, for being one of the very, very few folks in foreign policy debates advocating for the tactical use of nuclear weapons in "grey area" conflicts like, say, Vietnam or Korea.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Edward Teller was a brilliant intellect, a giant of physics in the pre-war period, and a major force in physics just post-war.
He retained his sharp mind into his 90's, though obviously not the same as when he was young. He was a member of a group of Hungarian physicists and mathematicians who escaped to the west... von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, Teller... all considered to be of such exceptional scientific talent to be referred to as "from outer space"
They were personally influenced by their experiences with totalitarian regimes in Europe and very suspicious of Soviet intentions, having lived the consequences. This experience obviously informed their advice to the government of their adopted country, the United States.
Their individual styles varied greatly, and they are remembered mostly for their science, except for Teller, perhaps, who is remembered for his advocacy of the development of thermonuclear weapons, and the politicking for that which included his testimony about Oppenheimer, clearly based on innuendo.
History will judge, long past our time, just how the cold war came out. Who was right and who was wrong. But it is still too soon to attribute good and evil.
The affairs of man are complex, I long ago divorced the concept of "brilliant scientist" from "good person," all of the spectrum of human foible are spread across the scientists I've known...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Oppenheimer said during the Manhattan project "God help us from enemies without and Hungarians within"
This was when Teller was pushing for the H bomb at a time when they hadn't completed the A bomb.
How did so many smart guys come out of Hungary during the pre war period?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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"I long ago divorced the concept of 'brilliant scientist' from 'good person[.]'"
I presume you've already added "good climber," "author," etc.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
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Werner may not know what style is, but I think he has it.
"It is style which complements affirmation with limitation and with humility; it is style which makes it possible to act effectively, but not absolutely; it is style which enables us to find harmony between the pursuit of ends essential to us, and the regard for the views, the sensibilities, the aspirations of others; it is style which is the deference that action pays to uncertainty; it is above all style through which power defers to reason."
I like the quote a lot, but it may be over the top for a climbing book.
I liked this one too
"a perfection of means, and a confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem" (Einstein)
and this
"Everybody who is anybody eventually shows up in Camp 4". (who said that??)
I read the American Prometheus bio a few years ago. To my surprise I came away liking the guy. Making the bomb and using it are two different things in my mind.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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"How did so many smart guys come out of Hungary during the pre war period?"
Austro-Hungary was one of the great cultural centers of Europe. The capitol, Vienna, was at least as important as Paris and more culturally important than Berlin or Rome or any other European city. Capital, culture, multi-ethnic intellectual and artistic life, and good universities. Plus a fairly large population with some opportunities for upward mobility based on merit.
We think of Hungary today as isolated or poor largely because of what happened to the place during and after the war.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Kisinger = Dr strangelove!
Have no doubt, Oppie was a 6'3" baldy that weighed 130lbs!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Dr. Oppenheimer, if we believe the biographers, showed the earmarks of social and moral confusion in his early and middle years.... ie; lacing apples with injurious chemicals and belligerence toward teachers during class discussions. His alleged attempt at seducing friend and colleague Linus Pauling's wife was monumental bad judgement and hardly elegant form or "style."(...if true)
Foolishness can be the flip side of genius.
Moral leadership? Perhaps....but more by situation than talent or design.
Was he that assured in his own moral leadership or were his admirers and zealots just fascinated and endeared by a post-Trinity JRO consumed in striving and struggling with his own angst ?
Fortunately we have video/audio from that era that lend context and ambiance difficult to extract from books. In my opinion, he conveyed humility, soberness and lack of pretention in the post WWII video I've seen. Such conduct doesn't certify moral legitimacy but it impresses more favorably than the arrogance and bombast of many modern activists, critics and advocates.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Oppenheimer seems to have been a somewhat complex and Faustian character, whom it is easy to caricature and criticize. But at least he knew there was a moral dimension to what he and the other Manhattan Project scientists were unleashing, and was troubled by it.
The excesses of the notorious Joseph McCarthy and the House Un-American Activities Committee in the 1950s are a blot on US history. The US seems to go through a xenophobic paranoid phase every 30 or 40 years - after World War I, in the 1950s, and again in the early part of the 21st century. It often seems based on reaction to real but much exaggerated and misunderstood threats.
The German speaking universities produced and employed most of the world's leading scientists, particularly physicists, from the late 19th century through to the 1930s. Just look at the nationality of the Nobel Prize winners from that era. US universities were then of no great stature in international terms - Harvard really just a club for rich peoples' children.
One of the bigger mistakes of Nazi Germany was to force out so many leading scientists, some but not all of whom were Jewish. Few of them were angels - geniuses rarely are. Some had naturally gravitated toward social democracy or communism, as the only apparently viable antidote to fascism. Some (e.g. Teller) reacted to their experience in a way that ended up promoting an ideology that wasn't far from fascist.
My father was slated to be in the invasion of Japan in 1946, which seemed a very real likelihood until atomic weapons were used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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Jennie- Read Ed's citation from post #11. Very illuminating, very vedic.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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"The US seems to go through a xenophobic paranoid phase every 30 or 40 years."
ST goes through one every three or four minutes, hehe.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Kissinger had little national profile in 1964 when Strangelove came out. Not too likely he was the model for the character.
Slightly more likely he decided to model himself after the character.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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The character of Strangelove may have been an amalgam of the various German scientists, engineers and academics who came to the US, and who were often outspoken. Wernher von Braun was another of them, although he wasn't an escapee. He and the other V2 scientists and technicians from Peenemunde were scooped by the US at the end of the war, with their active cooperation. The US was only too quick to overlook their pasts, or at least not ask awkward questions - and many, including von Braun, had been aware of if not complicit in war crimes.
von Braun, Arthur Rudolph and the other Operation Paper Clip people did fulfill their end of their Faustian bargain - they gave the US its arsenal of military rockets, and human landings on the Moon with the Saturn 5.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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John von Neumann was the most likely model for Dr. Strangelove, according to most accounts.
There was also a European physicist whose name escapes just now, but who burned his hand handling too much uranium and wore the trademark leather glove to hide the disfigurement.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
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Oppenheimer, the principle developer of the atomic bomb, stated that "The Vedas are the greatest privilege of this century."
When Oppenheimer was asked if this is the first nuclear explosion, he significantly replied: "Yes, in modern times," implying that ancient nuclear explosions may have previously occurred.
He was ousted by all those screwballs who wanted nukes, because they knew he knew the real truth.
Nukes are no good especially in the hands of the "modern thought" idiots of today.
Kissinger was/is a total idiot and fool number one.
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aguacaliente
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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Unfortunately, such a bomb was going to be built eventually, by someone.
The only thing worse than Oppenheimer being in charge of building that bomb, might have been anyone other than Oppenheimer being in charge of building that bomb.
A combination of technical skill, organizational ability, and some sense of moral responsibility is not always common in people we regard as geniuses. Maybe even rare. (I also say this with personal experience with many scientists, some wonderful people, some highly competent, and some who would frighten me given such power.)
He was deeply flawed. Who is not?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Jun 19, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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"...History has not been kind to Edward Teller, who appears to have been an exceptionally nasty person in addition to his other qualities..."
Nor should it, as Teller was obviously implicit in torpedo-ing Oppenheimer for his own personal benefit.
Curt
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 19, 2009 - 02:45am PT
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"Sellers said, "Strangelove was never modeled after Kissinger, that's popular misconception."
I call bullshit on that as have others, Sellers didn't want to be sued, I'm judgement proof.
Obviously there were other influences, but is there any chance that that the voice, at least, started out from anyone else? Those movies guys always want to use something that isn't quite breaking in the public eye yet, to show how smart they are, in the near future...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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I think this distillation is closer the mark.
The problem of doing justice to the implicit, the imponderable, and the unknown... is always with us in science..., writing and all forms of art… It is with us in the most trivial of personal affairs... The means by which it is solved is sometimes called style.
It is style which complements affirmation with limitation and with humility... It is above all style through which power defers to reason.
The quote heads a chapter on style and defining it right away in the broadest terms allows an immediate narrowing to the particulars of climbing and Tom's life.
Style is so central to many of us that it is the elephant in the waiting room of the psyche, the creative unconscious.
One of my favorite examples comes from an article that Bob Kamps wrote about bolting ethics. At the end of his argument he admonishes climbers to think beyond themselves and "do what is best for climbing".
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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Stevie, enough of this!
Tarbaby has spoken; he eschews your "style" thingie. He maintains it's all about "Fashion".
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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Perhaps I am simply a lone ascetic atop a column of my own desire and construction...That too is a style! LOL
But then, should I become i, or less, then the style and the stylist are the same!
Much like being one with the cowboy hat...
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jstan
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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We are talking about Tarbuster right?
Since when did that hat come back into fashion - if it ever was south of Wyoming?
Fashion is following the herd.
That hat is style.
Tarby following the herd? That's a rail shot at best.
A comment.
The "fashion" in the US is not to consider long term consequences but only to look at the quarter's result.
Looking long term in the US has therefore become "style".
I leave it to the reader to decide which gives the best results - on the ground. That is a question actually much more important than style or fashion.
When you ask "where's the beef?" you are talking something real.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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((another fun diatribe))
Sometimes Johno Stannard you simply floor me. I can’t believe you pharmacists or whatever lowly thing it is that you and Ed do...Gee! “Rail shot”: puleeze!
Okay, let me explain: The Hat (note the caps here) is MORE than style. It in fact TRUMPS style (and don’t you be trying Euler’s circles on me Buddy cuz my circle is bigger than your circle here)...It---by your own words----IS fashion because---why?---”fashion is following the herd” as you say just above in a rather demeaning manner. But here the True Meaning escaped you, Sir!
The express use of The Cowboy Hat---Roy's too certainly---was that of that greatest of all paradigms, The Cowboy Following The Herd. Jungian even, pilgrims! Watching out for strays, and valiantly---nobly, actually----keeping Everycow on task. Far Far beyond style, up, up, UP to the acme of Western Civilization: Fashion. I humbly refer you to the film “The Devil Wears Prada”, Meryl Streep starring, with especial note to her discourse on the color blue. Seriously, you have no time to waste, may I say! In sum, Fashion, though entirely temporal is eternal! You see? It really is rather simple.
Roy would be in on this and be rototilling ion your newly blooming begonias right now and in a heartbeat I might add if he weren’t so sore from yesterday’s command slab performance here and is also still busy ironing and preparing for another long starchy storage, those three lonely “ample woman” dresses of his performance group. He is noting that slabs can really dirty up a hem quickly, even granite ones.
So if you would only wait a minute, Johno, Everycow shall be to market soon enough when The Cowboy is done over at the Cleaners!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Insert Gary Larson Far Side cartoon here, featuring introspective cattle and cowboys...
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jstan
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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If you count exclamation marks - I believe I win.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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No John. You can use exclamation marks too; its okay; anyway one does not win simply by being covert. Has your keyboard run out of them or did you opt out of them when you set up your system? You didn’t save money, you know...some cultures even have upside-down ones they are so free and easy with emphasis¡¡¡¡¡
THIS JUST IN: Modesty is the ability to call attention to whatever it is that you are being humble about.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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"Modesty is the ability to call attention to whatever it is that you are being humble about."
...Without anyone noticing that you're doing so.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Peter:
Except for a prior experience I would accuse you of changing the rules in the middle of the game.
Sometime in the 70's I was at Steve and Marcia's in Boulder waiting for Steve to get back with the ice cream. We began playing a game with Marcia's two daughters trying to throw a rubber ball into a coffee cup. In the middle of the game Portia pulled the cup up close and claimed victory. I grimaced and muttered, "Women. Always changing the rules in the middle of the game." Portia, then about three, immediately climbed into my lap, made a fist under my nose and growled, "Watch it Buster!"
Frankly I can't say which would make me the more uncomfortable. You making a fist. Or you climbing into my lap.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Jstan, nobody in Big wide, wears those things. Except poseurs in Jackson. Though Todd S was known to carry off that look with aplomb. Of course if you grow up shoeing horse it comes easier...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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"You didn’t save money, you know"
You saying Scots count characters?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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Takes ink and electrons to make them, don't it?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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"Takes ink and electrons to make them, don't it?"
Excellent example. You saved "It," "es," and "no," although I suppose the extra "'" for the contraction takes a half-point off the total, hehe.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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You caught that one. Very good.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Duly noted DMT thnx. Obviously I am in here without adult supervision. I have been unsuccessful in coaxing the Wild Tarbaby out of his lair; I had been hoping he was somewhere around.
Johno, that was v. funny thanks! Yes, anything, ANYTHING that makes me continue with the illusion that I am still a three-year old girl is good news to me.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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Call it a draw................(!)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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I never met a Scot that I didn't count a character! LOL
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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Walter Haeussermann, perhaps the last of the German rocket scientists who were brought to the US as part of Operation Paper Clip in 1945, along with Wernher Braun, Arthur Rudolph and many others, has died. He was 96. His specialty was guidance and control systems, from the V2 to the Saturn 5.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/18/us/18haeussermann.html?hpw
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 18, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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You know, Oppenheimer's "style" was sufficient to lead President Harry S. Truman to instruct his aides he never wanted to see him again. FWIW.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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HFCS- Read Ed's link early in this thread and you may take a wider view of his style. It certainly sheds some light on aspects of Oppenheimer's mannerism that would have completely set Truman off.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Dec 18, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
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Bump for Grossman.
Style is everything. climbing , surfing , life , you name it?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 18, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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Anybody have an updated link to the Oppenheimer piece posted by Ed early on? and mentioned by Steve?
Regarding Teller: Carl Sagan had some opinions about his work and life in Demon Haunted World that I thought were interesting.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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Something new about Paper Clip.
Every saturday we go to the farmer's market with a neighbor who was brought over to White Sands
at the end of the War. He was already flying in Germany at the age of fifteen when he was drafted
eventually winding up in rockettry. But along the way he flew as a fighter pilot for the Luftwaffe in
Europe.
A few weeks ago PT was talking with another neighbor who referred to our German friend as "The
Enemy". The two are good friends and both flew in combat in Europe. One for Germany, the other for the US.
They have not gone to their unit records to see if they had actually ever shot at each other.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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That's the one...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2016 - 10:28pm PT
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Enduring Style Bump...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2018 - 10:18am PT
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Thinking man's bump...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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May 28, 2018 - 11:40am PT
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Using a JRA quote in a Tom Frost book? What a contrast- the alcoholic and teetotaler.
JRA's speciality was big pitchers of Martini's
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
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May 28, 2018 - 12:35pm PT
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My great uncle is the last surviving member of the Manhattan project.
The Lab had a celebration for him on his 100th birthday.
Irrelevant, I know, but I’m in a sharing mood...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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Still under consideration but not as a chapter quote.
Tom has a very wide and encompassing view of style as it applies to living so a short version may still make the cut.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
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it's the style, stupid!
bump
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