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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 29, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Worst case scenario (barring F-ups) in simul is if the second falls and pulls the leader down into their last piece, the fall factor can by WAY above 2 because the leader and second's falling weight goes onto a piece with NO rope out.
Worst case scenario in pitching it out, a factor two on a slab, is way less nasty in comparison.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 29, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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Alternatively, build anchor and have second climb to a stance below the anchor, climbs to the anchor when you get to the next bolt. Not even a pseudo-factor 2 there, because if leader falls before reaching the bolt the second gets pulled upward.
Of course, falling out of the stance is still a problem. And it could play hell on the calves. :-)
Tiblocs seem like a bad idea! But the sailing world makes sprung cams that might suit this goal.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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Somebody else also said it in this thread further up.
So, ... if you even think you're going to fall on this route while leading you need to go somewhere else.
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Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Hey Werner - thanks for your post. Yea, that's what's so fascinating to me - that we both say and believe that, but then also climb it with a rope.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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not sure if the upper pitch bolts have been replaced
My feeling is that if you are simul-climbing, it is because there is some risk of either your leader or your follower falling. With one bolt between the two of you, there is not a lot of redundancy... when simul-climbing you want to have a lot of control over where you put anchors. Once you're on the dike, you don't have any control, you use the bolts.
...if both leader and follower can climb it without falling, then go up and solo it together, which is probably safer, or at least less risk, than tying in together hoping that neither would fall on a simul.
Otherwise, just pitch it out.
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Gene
climber
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May 29, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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One advantage of pitching it out is the setting of SD. It is in a beautiful location - the higher you go, the more the views of the Valley and high country open up. Nothing wrong with belaying at the pitch anchors and absorbing the view. The sight-seeing aspect of Snake Dike is superb, at least as good if not better than the actual movements over rock, which are also pretty darn cool.
gm
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 29, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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So, I am just curious about the idea that somehow any of us can know with any certainty that we are not going to fall. All well and good that Snake Dike is no place to try out 5.6 leading skills, but what is the logic of thinking that 'we' know when we are not going to fall?
Anyone care to list the number of 'falled' climbers who knew it ahead of time. Or, said another way, if you know that you are not going to fall, 3rd class the route--no risk that the second is going to pull you off and no risk of rope damage.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Roger, actually the story John Bachar told of soloing with John Long, his first time... I forget the route, but Largo asked John about climbing that rig, as they started to walk over, John headed for the camp and Largo asks "where're you going?" John replies "to get my rope and rack" and Largo replies "we're going to solo it." John reportedly said, "no way!" to which Largo asks "how many times have you climbed that rig without falling"
"maybe 100 times"
"well?"
the rest is history, as they say...
My guess is, to be polite, if you are asking about simul on the Dike, you should probably pitch it out...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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I found the 5.7 slab on the second pitch pretty gripping without a rope. It would be a far, far tamer adventure belaying up to the start of the dike, then soloing off from there.
After all the pointed advice already posted on this thread, I haven't heard any justification for considering this in the first place.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 29, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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Good story, Ed. Personally I have huge respect for soloing and understand the reason why it is appealing.
My objection is with the efforts to creep up on it: if you use a rope, belay and prepare to hold a fall.
I hated soloing. I always expected my belayer and protection to hold the fall. Too much training in probability and risk theory.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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Roger, as you know from your own experience, anytime you go out soloing you do it with the knowledge that your margin is razor thin... you trust that your holds are "rock solid" but we all know that stuff can break, even if it's been pulled on a thousand times....
...but we do solo.
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NotIt
Trad climber
Malaga Cove
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May 29, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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Hypothetical/theoretical line of thought follows:
What if one hung a Mini Traxxion (or grigri?) at the protection bolt?
ie: leader climbs, clips the pro (or anchor, as the case may likely be on this climb given the # bolts between anchors) with a mini traxxion and continues to climb.
_PROVIDED_ that the team maintains minimal to zero slack in the system, I'm finding this an interesting twist on the simul paradigm (at least from the comforts of this chair).
I do know that MT is not rated for dynamic falls, but the beauty of this rig on a slabby route like SD is that a) the leader will never generate a huge fall factor and b) the follower is now essentially on toprope.
The limitations are similarly obvious, but negligible, I think. First one that comes to mind is that the leader has forgone his recourse of downclimbing with a belay from below as long as the follower is still below the MT, but again, within the realm of 5.7 climbing and those who choose to simul this stuff, this seems like a marginally likely situation.
I must have MT on the brain as I picked two up for solo toproping and totally dig the system.
Thoughts on the MT as intermediate auuto-belay point while simuling?
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jeff_m
climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
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May 29, 2009 - 07:27pm PT
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In reference to the bolts on SD, several have been replaced, but I can't remember there not being at least one buttonhead spinner at each belay.
As to climbing the route, get on it early and just have fun (i.e. take your time). I shot through the first two pitches and was halfway up the third when I realized the climb would be over before I knew it, and I wouldn't have savored (nor remembered) any of it.
Just enjoy it instead of trying to save time.
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bubble boy
Big Wall climber
T100
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May 29, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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imo simul-climbing is only for situations where you would otherwise be soloing but you don't have time to take off the rope.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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May 29, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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I did not read the previous posts but IMHO why bother. The climb is too short for the amount of time spent on the approach and descent. Enjoy the climb, take time to smell the dike.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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May 29, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Enjoy the spectacular views while belaying in a semiremote location. Don't waste a long approach and longer hike home by rushing your climbing. Stash some beers near the exit from little Yos for a victory celebration at Nevada Falls. Just make sure you head down before the swarms of burnt out "I Made It To The Top" hikers descend upon you. My buddy made that mistake (too many beers) and played the Pied Piper leading a horde down with just his headlight.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 29, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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I think how you go about climbing Snakedike or anything else is about what you are used to and feel comfortable and confident doing. If you feel sketchy simul climbing, don't. If you are used to soloing 5.8 slab and feel comfortable, then maybe the solo is not so crazy. That muc h said, one of the worst feelings imaginable is to get up on a solo and realize that you're not really into it. That happened to me a few times and it's really no fun at all.
JL
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ec
climber
ca
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May 30, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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"...you trust that your holds are "rock solid" but we all know that stuff can break..." EH
LOL. On SD the cruxes (low down) have nothing to break. It's all smooth friction. Above, where it's easier an one may lose focus stuff does crumble, but as Werner (et al)said...
ec
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